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JG1
3rd Jun 2010, 14:13
'ATNS are experiencing an increase in radio traffic at the major South African airports relating to the CTOT’s generated by pilots. The request for the issue and update of CTOT’s from pilots applies undue pressure to ATC’s. This increase in traffic as well as the pressure from pilots severely impacts safety as it congests the radio frequencies and causes distractions to the ATC.'

So now the tail wags the dog. What did they think was going to happen when they introduced a system which is unneccesarily restrictive and causes delays to flights out of thin air, and doesnt make sense a lot of the time.

Shame the ATC's are now under pressure because their radio's are too busy. And its the pilot's fault. This while ATNS sometimes sees fit to have one poor ATC running delivery, ground and tower all at the same time at ORTIA?

Speaking of pressure, what of the pilots who have an all-day schedule to run back and forth across the land? When your turnarounds are 30 minutes and you manage to get the pax off, the cleaners on and done, the catering replenished, the aircraft refuelled, snags fixed, the next set of pax boarded and seated, all sorts of little problems ironed out, the mandatory safety announcements completed etc etc all done in record time; only to be told that you have a CTOT which is now 26 minutes after your scheduled departure time? Thats just eaten 87% of your next turnaround. Add a couple of them up and you might be getting out of FDP on some tighter schedules.

Now I can NEVER leave early if I have got it all together and am ready to roll ten minutes before schedule in CPT because I am anticipating a longer turnaround in JNB. Because the computer says I can't.

Lets have a brief look at this new system. 'One of the fundamentals that has changed is that the ATC’s in the control towers no longer have the user rights in the system to manage (issue and update) CTOTs (Calculated Take off Times; or Slot Times) for aircraft.'

So lets take for example for a flight from CPT to JNB. The CPT CTOT is calculated to have you arrive in JNB at a certain time to slot you in for landing in JNB. But you can go 5 minutes before the CTOT or 10 minutes after it. And you can fly any speed you like. So it's hardly precision is it? The speed used in the calculation is an average of your block times on that route. Guess what. When I'm late I fly faster to try and catch up so there's the calculation out of the window. And when I get near JNB there happens to be several aircraft (charters, regional traffic) who appear over the horizon without ever having a CTOT and must be slotted into the landing pattern so my delay is extended further. Several times we've been delayed waiting for the CTOT, flown standard speeds to JNB only to be put into the hold at Ested? WTF? :ugh:

And if I'm flying somewhere like Livingston or Windhoek or even George where there is no huge congestion to land, why do I need a CTOT to take off from JNB? Because the system demands one? What about standard DF? Even after a perfect CTOT departure from JNB to CPT the ATC still applies old style controlling to my speed to get all inbound traffic to CPT in a logical landing sequence.

The old system worked well, why change it to an inflexible one which doesn't work as well? Is this another example of a 'big spend' which was 'neccessary' but part of which was paid under the table?

A new system which results in inefficiencies, regardless of where they occur in the system, whether it be to the poor ATC's whose radios are congested, or the poor pilots who are forever playing catchup, is a cr@p system.

Lets see who cracks first, because the pilots are going to continue moaning, on the radio. The more moans, the more overload, the quicker this cr@pola is thrown in the bin.:yuk:

Cardinal Puff
3rd Jun 2010, 14:29
Never happen. It'll stay in place to justify the money spent (kickbacks anyone?) and we'll just have to suck it up and live with it.

bosbok
3rd Jun 2010, 19:46
It reminds me of the TV show Little Britain.. "The computer says noooo!"

The biggest joke is when they tell you that you can phone JHB briefing for an earlier CTOT. And then when you do, the chap at briefing still tells you noooo!

Stupid jellytots!

Maurice Chavez
3rd Jun 2010, 21:11
The idiotic system adopted by ATNS/CAMU was developed by IATA. So yet again IATA is trying to rule the world...Does this ring a bell? as CP mentions, money has been spend, and now has to be justified... So DO WE SUCK UP? Nah, not me, I'll keep moaning at ATC, merely due to the fact that you have to standby on "Delivery" until fully ready, and then call back "fully ready", well good luck trying to get a call in the early morning, even on your CTOT. Next thing that happens is that you have missed your slot, can we get a new one? Computer say no...P!ss poor try to get slots going for the "over estimated" worldcup traffic".

Beechdrivr
4th Jun 2010, 08:25
Apparently, so i hear, this system was tried a while back, dunno the time frame and it didn't work out very well and was put on the back burner.

I personally think and i'm sure most, if not all agree with me it's a big cock up at the moment. Now having to get permission from clearance delivery before switching over to ground is hugely frustrating when it's busy and everyone is trying to get a clearance and then you still have to wait in queue just to say you are ready for start. :mad:

Jg1 i feel ur frustration as well, case in point last night out of PLZ. We were ready 5 min before our pushback got our start and was made to wait 20 min. at the holding point until our CTOT came up and even then they lauched us late as we had to wait for aircraft to land that were 20nm out. Couldn't go earlier heaven forbid... needless to say we were pretty pissed off. This system is a failure.

Would this system not be more suited to airports like Heathrow and the likes where there is high traffic volumes? Dunno if it is used over there! We just don't have the numbers IMO for this system to work properly.

Would be interested in what some ATCO's have to say about it, anyways that's my 2cents:} I'm off to do battle with the system again shortly:p

safe flying guys :ok:
BD

nugpot
4th Jun 2010, 11:06
I just use the wait to explain to my passengers that ATNS have now lost all their experienced controllers and the replacements are too useless to control traffic. The result is a system designed for high density operations in first world environment completely f'ed up by the CAMU operators.

Now they have added this central flight plan repository to complete the descent into chaos. As soon as the airlines realise how much this is costing them in delays, fuel burn, etc, a lot of pressure will be put on ATNS to stop their crap.

Until then, I will tell every single passenger how ATNS has gone from an efficient organisation to the aeronautical equivalent of Escom.

The Actuator
4th Jun 2010, 12:30
You must have a long memory because I can never remember the system as being efficient. More efficient than this sure, but never anywhere near optimal. The overiding feeling about Air Traffic Control in this country is quality controllers hamstrung by archaic rules and miles and miles of red tape. When you add that to poorly designed STARS and SIDS, really badly planned airports (Runways, Taxiways and Aprons) and good old screw you attitude you have the makings of a particularly unsafe environment. Loads of pissed off pilots is not helping the situation any.

JG1
4th Jun 2010, 12:46
Speaking of badly designed STAR's and SID's.... who designed the new ones into Shaka? A comittee of schoolkids?

If you fly the whole STAR, you need to make sure your pension plans are in order. You're doing 250kts at 50 miles and 210kts by about FL200. If the controller is going to give you vectors as a matter of routine because of the cr@p STAR then why p1ss you about telling you to comply with it anyway. The leg from JNB to DUR is short enough without the extra briefing and
p1ssing about with plates you aren't actually going to use.

PS. to the Durban controllers (who don't seem to have anything like the passion or DF of the CPT ones).. keeping me at FL80 abeam then giving me a visual isn't really helping. Neither is waiting until I have slowed down to 250 to tell me no speeds. Catch a wake up.

And can someone feed the poor oke in the tin box buried down the waterhole manning 129.1 ?

kykweer
4th Jun 2010, 14:38
As JG said! I was wondering if it was only me feeling that way! And what's with the "Descend ....feet (normally in 500 feet increments), Reduce speed 180 KIAS (From 250), turn left ..... degrees, and clear ILS.......

Pilots will always only have 2 hands, doesn't matter how good the autopilot, apart from the fact that ATC clearnaces should not contain more than 3 actions in a clearance.

ChiyaWena
4th Jun 2010, 19:36
Back to the idiotic SLOT system.......why was it even put in place if the demand was never going to be met for the system to even make sense?? this ain't europe.

Speaking of safety, all it is doing is irritating those that have to work with it, pilots and controllers. and they had nothing to do with it's creation as far as i know. As pilots we get annoyed with the ATC but they can't do much about it, as i've heard numerous times, 'sorry, it's out of our hands'. and the controllers get upset with the aircrews constantly asking for earlier CTOTS. so we have a bunch of frustrated pilots being controlled by a bunch of irritated ATC's. and it's neither the pilots or the ATC's fault. :ugh:if there ever was 'CRM' between controllers and aircrews in SA, it's vanashing fast. so much for a safer system........

i don't want to be told to contact my OPS because they can't do much either, let us not forget that they are busy with other flights too. And the controllers have all the resources they need to sort it out. but sorry, it's out of your hands though. and when one aircraft misses thier slot, why can't someone else have it if they are ready and waiting.

don't even get me started on trying to get hold of the learner on 121.9 again just to tell them that i'm 'fully ready'. can someone please explain to me what that means anyway, i'm either ready or i'm not??!! anyway. :oh:

when a few of us have to sit in the bay with the doors closed for no reason other than the system, and then all get push and start at the same time and sit at the holding point and watch each other take off, doesn't the penny drop??!!

however much this dumb system cost, it's gonna cost the indusrty more in delays and fuel burns. wakey wakey helloooooo......

and why don't i get a CTOT of of livingston?? the CTOT is all about the arrival time isn't it? so when i blast off from livingstong and land 40 mins early, where's the problem, joburg deals with us and fits us in like it used to be!!

COME ON ATNS, LETS THINK ABOUT THIS LOGICALLY AND RETHINK IT. LOOK AT THE RESULTS. BECAUSE THEY SUCK!!!!!!!

daily CTOT rant over.......................thanks...............:*

Cardinal Puff
4th Jun 2010, 22:14
Weld shut the doors of the management hive, set fire to the place and wait outside with pick handles to club survivors back into the flames.

Hey, I can dream can't I...?:}:ok:

sky waiter
5th Jun 2010, 06:48
This system is absolutely stupid, yesterday we get all our passengers on board out of FAKN only to be given a CTOT 25 mins late than scheduled chock off. Flying to Durban.

Kruger is bad enough on a normal day now we have to comply with a CTOT when we are the only aircraft on the apron??? Its absolutely ridiculous. I sincerely hope someone wakes up and gets to realise that this system is just complicating something which worked before?

IF ITS NOT BROKEN IN THE FIRST PLACE DONT FIX IT!!!!!!!

Just a job
5th Jun 2010, 10:36
I recall reading a piece in Flight International, i think it was, a couple of weeks back about NATS helping ATNS with SID`s, STAR`s etc into Chaka and generally helping with airspace planning for the 'increased traffic associated with the world cup' and 'into the future'....
The traffic will increase during the next couple of weeks but nowhere near the extent to warrant screwing with a system that was working ok (not perfect,but ok). Another first world 'solution' to an African situation, me thinks. I left SA ATC and went flying and a large number of my mates downed headsets and went to Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Hong Kong, Canada etc and the flow still has`nt been stemmed. Been out of it for many many years, but experienced guys and girls leaving does`nt bode well for the future.