No life rafts over the Tasman - Another cost reduction measure?

[Tee Emm]

Not sure if this is correct or not, but understand that to save (or make) money, major RPT operators have received dispensation from CASA against carrying life rafts on flights to New Zealand and Bali. Chances are passengers are not aware of that unless they ask the flight attendants.

Presumably, in deciding to grant the dispensation to airline operators, the Civil Aviation "Safety" Authority considers the emergency evacuation slides and passenger seat cushions are a reliable flotation devices and therefore a sufficient safety factor in event of a ditching in the Indian Ocean or Tasman. The only proviso is the aircraft must fly within 400 miles of land while flying to these destinations.

So a passenger jet reports an uncontrollable cabin fire and the crew have no choice except to ditch in the ocean before they risk becoming incapacitated by smoke and fire.

Two hundred or more injured passengers, including babies and small children clinging to seat cushions awaiting rescue from passing cargo ships that could be 24 hours sailing time away. And the circling sharks scenting a gigantic feed. A terrible scenario. But no problem say the airlines and CASA - it is a statistically insignificant one in ten million event. Like the Air France A330 lost over the South Atlantic - a mere abberation. After all, carrying life rafts costs revenue and that is not good for the bottom line. And all because of cost-cutting approved by the regulator. Surely there is a moral issue at stake here?

[rmcdonal]

I would suggest that it is within raft dropping distance of the rescue aircraft, and as such are not required to carry their own.

[chimbu warrior]

within raft dropping distance of the rescue aircraft

At night?

In heavy seas?

Just where are these rescue aircraft orbiting in readiness for a disaster?

How long can passengers tread water?

If true, this proposal is lunacy.

[Neptunus Rex]

The regulations did not require Sully's Airbus to carry liferafts, as it was an overland flight. Apart from the factors mentioned above, in the Tasman Sea, even in summer, without a liferaft hypothermia would soon set in.
What is the difference in cost and weight between escape slides and liferafts? Only a heartless beancounter could think of that, and I cannot believe that the regulators would countenance such dangerous nonsense.

[404 Titan]

Tee Emm

What type of aircraft are you referring? I can’t speak for all jet aircraft types but on the A330/340, the emergency evacuation slides on type “A” doors are the life rafts, 6 in total with rations, first aid, water collection/making, shelter, repair kits etc. They are designed for this role from the ground up including being easily releasable from the aircraft doors once the evacuation is complete.

[waren9]

The only proviso is the aircraft must fly within 400 miles of land while flying to these destinations.

So, whats changed? CASA CAO 20.11 5.2.1.1 refers.

Laughable to suggest that anyone ditching in the Tasman or Great Australian Bight without a raft will survive until found. Especially this time of year. CASA's own CAAP on ditching suggests you have about an hour in 15 deg C water.

[Neptunus Rex]

Tee Emm

Please check your source. I cannot find any reference to this in the Oz press.

404 Titan

There are some types, eg regional jets, that don't even have escape slides, because the fuselage is close to the ground and allows easy egress. However, a low door sill would also allow fast ingress of water in the event of a ditching. To have to deploy an internally carried liferaft.....

[VH-XXX]

Is it true that the Dash 8's flying to Norfolk don't carry rafts - can someone confirm? I heard this a while back.

[Capt Fathom]

Dash 8's flying to Norfolk ??

Lord Howe Island !

[mates rates]

The CASA exemption is 400 miles from LAND and you will find on most routes with the existence of Lord Howe and Norfolk island there is no requirement to carry them.Don't tell the passengers though!!

[VH-XXX]

Yes Capt Fathom, that's what I was thinking. You'd know more than me about water with a name like that, second to Bert Snorkell.

[Jabawocky]

If Bert Snorkel were still at CASA this would never happen, would not see the light of day thats for sure.

[peuce]

Jabawocky .... where is your phrase?

If this is indeed true ...
I can just visualise the "Air Crash Investigation"episode now. And I can visualise the re-write of the regs shortly thereafter.

CASA is relying on this likelihood being .... vanishingly small

CASA, why put yourself through this? Just say ... no, now!

[Jabawocky]

Its actually Owens....ssshhhh:oh: don't tell anyone I borrowed it for a while;)

As someone who runs a much smaller business, the costs of large expenses would be a bigger deal to me than say an airline, and I would ot consider such a stratergy worth thinking about. So what are they on about :ugh:

[Howabout]

Hypothermia wouldn't be so bad, but I'd hate to ditch without a raft in the Timor Sea. That's Tiger Shark Central.

[Aerodynamisist]

Every time I paxed it out to lord howe there have been life rafts aboard the Dash 8, last time was 2 years ago though.

[Tee Emm]

What type of aircraft are you referring?

Boeing 737. Don't know about the A320. Air Pacific operate from Fiji to Australia and to Kiribati. I have no idea if they carry life-rafts although as they are not subject to Australian regulations I presume they do. But other airlines ply between Australia and New Zealand. I wonder what CASA see as an "equivalent level of safety" when concessions against carrying life rafts are issued. Statistically that 50 percent of passengers are good swimmers, perhaps?

[VH-XXX]

Aerodynamicist, how do you actually know that there are life rafts aboard the Dash 8? QL don't carry them due to the regs discussed above, unless I'm horribly mistaken.

[404 Titan]

VH-XXX

Last time I went to Lord Howe Island was 2005 on an Easterns Dash8. A couple of rows of seats were removed near the emergency exit if I recall and the thing was strapped to the floor.

Tee Emm

Someone on the B737 will correct me if I'm wrong but I would have thought the emergency evacuation slides are the life rafts.

[dodo whirlygig]

Someone on the B737 will correct me if I'm wrong but I would have thought the emergency evacuation slides are the life rafts.

not on any 737 I've ever been on.................................

Usually stored in overhead lockers on the Classics and in ceiling bins above the aisle in the NG's.

Don't you listen to the safety briefings or read the briefing card? Oh well, you're not much different to most passengers in that case.

[VH-XXX]

I was referring to QF -8's, can't speak for Eastern.

[maverick22]

XXX I too heard on pretty good authority that QLINK dash 8's (Sunstate + Eastern) do not carry life rafts to Lord Howe anymore due to a change in CASA regs for overwater flights

[404 Titan]

dodo whirlygig

No need to be so bitchy. As I said:
“Someone on the B737 will correct me if I’m wrong”.
Personally I can’t remember the last time I was on a B737. Most times I have been on a QF aircraft it was a B767 or an A330.

[Aerodynamisist]

Yep had one row of seat removed for the raft, I got roused on by the hostie for sitting in the row behind and putting my feet up on the raft.

I can't understand why CASA would not grow a pair and mandate the carriage of life rafts carte blanche for all off shore ops, if any one has a problem with that they can say "To bad cost of doing business we are CASA".

[Going Nowhere]

Correct. They now carry a sea survival pack.

It has an epirb and a few flares in a pretty little plastic tub. :eek:

[peuce]

Usually stored in overhead lockers on the Classics and in ceiling bins above the aisle in the NG's.

Don't you listen to the safety briefings or read the briefing card? Oh well, you're not much different to most passengers in that case.

I know this is naughty, but .... I wonder if there's anything inside them:hmm:

[Biggles78]

I guess the pretty little Air Ambulance with the pretty pilot that ditched in the warm waters off a pretty little island must have been most happy NOT to have a life raft on board. Lucky for the sharp eyes of one of the rescue team looking on the wrong side of the pretty little island.

I am sure the patient and medical crew would have appreciated a life raft. Flight crew in this case didn't deserve one due to the (how do you say idiotic in a nice way) need to not carry diversion fuel.

Guess the CASA's one in a million chance has happened and so they now feel safe for the next 999,999 over water flights. :ugh:

[Howard Hughes]

Biggles there were 2 life rafts on board, just not enough time to get them out!

But lets not the the facts (http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/1345477/ao-2009-072-prelim.pdf) ruin a good yarn!:rolleyes:

[LeadSled]

CASA is relying on this likelihood being .... vanishingly small

Peuce,

You are so droll, ever considered a career as a comedian.

For the benefit of others on this thread, CASA DOES NOT have to assess a risk as vanishingly small to allow a concession/variation/change of regulation.

Indeed, if the allowable residual risk criteria, after all mitigation's, was required to be "vanishingly small" there would be precisely NO aviation.

"Vanishingly small" is the statistical equivalent of zero in maths.

No aviation risk based regulatory criteria, ICAO, here or anywhere else, requires the risk to be "vanishingly small" before the operation can be authorized.

For those of you who have latched onto ALARP without understanding what what ALARP means, as opposed to what you want it to mean, please refer AS/NZ 4360:1999 or :2004.

That some airspace volumes have been quantitatively assessed ( ie: risk in the real world) in Australia, as having an actual separation assurance level, for both C and E services, of vanishingly small, does NOT IMPLY that the regulatory ( acceptable) separation assurance standard for any class of airspace is "vanishingly small".

I haven't bothered to check the latest regs. and any variations, but memory suggest that the "400 nm" bit for multi-engine aircraft hails from long time ICAO SARPS.

Indeed, the Australian development of the slide raft ( QF Safety Department, Jack Grant gets the credit) was in part a reaction to very narrow DCA "rules", and the fact that many of QF's competitors did not carry ( and suffer the cost penalties) of carrying rafts. All this back in B707/Electra days.

Tootle pip!!

[peuce]

Leadsled,


Actually I have thought of it, but my wife keeps saying ... "you're just not funny! "

[Capn Bloggs]

"Vanishingly small" is the statistical equivalent of zero in maths.
Ar yes, the same chance of an airprox in E over Launy. Go for it, Led. :D

[compressor stall]

IIRC the Flight Safety Foundation Ditching CD of a year or five ago had some interesting statistics. Most ditchings (including twin engine turbine/jet) were quite close to shore.

Maybe they should be mandated for ops within 100nm of shore only?

Risk is a two fold approach - likelihood and consequence.

And on a tangent now - is it true that noone has ever survived a ditching in Bass Strait? I did hear that a while ago, but never seen the proof either way.

[LeadSled]

---the same chance of an airprox in E over Launy.

Bloggs,

Nobody ever claimed that design separation assurance standards for Class E (or any other class) was "vanishingly small", nor was it ever claimed that the actual risk was vanishingly small over Launy.

You really do have a problem getting your facts straight, don't you.

Tootle pip!!

[VH-XXX]

And on a tangent now - is it true that noone has ever survived a ditching in Bass Strait? I did hear that a while ago, but never seen the proof either way.

I know someone that ditched in Bass Strait but luckily it was on a tiny island. They were VFR over the top whilst attempting to find Yarram. When they came down at the first opportunity they were so far out they couldn't see land so landed on the nearest island. Aircraft was dismantled and returned to shore by boat at a later date.

[peuce]

Some say F.V. did ....:hmm:

[VH-XXX]

Wouldn't we all want to know what happened to him. :oh:

My theory was that he was upside down when he went in, ie. Was looking at his reflection above.

[ringbinder]

And on a tangent now - is it true that noone has ever survived a ditching in Bass Strait? I did hear that a while ago, but never seen the proof either way.


Probably splitting hairs, but survive a ditching, yes. An Aero commander ex LST to MEL ditched quite a while ago. One fellow got out and was found alive in his life jacket by an Ansett F50 that was sent to search for survivors. The tragedy was that the rescue effort was a total and abject failure when it should have been otherwise. There were many failures and breakdowns in what should have been relatively a straightforward exercise and the fellow eventually perished when he should have been saved. The ABC did an excellent documentary called "Search without Rescue" and is worth viewing if you can get your hands on it.