To all you new cadets at ryan

[nariman]

Hello, Got a couple of questions stuck in my head and I hope you can help me sort a few things out..

Soon on my way of finishing IR ME+CPL+MCC and when done, Im thinking about joining ryan.

Anyway,

I've been lucky enough to get by all courses with minimum loans.
In the end I will owe the bank about 15,000EUR.
Ok, lets say I got accepted into ryan.
Now I have to decide if I want to pay 30,000 EUR to get in.
The problem, Since I already got a loan of 15,000 EUR (with help of my parents) The bank probably won't give me another loan.
So, Is there a way that Ryan will help me get in contact with a bank who will lend me money?
How did you guys come up with the money?

How did you survive during the line training? As I see it, Ryan will send you around on different bases to get you checked as quickly as possible.
That means, hotel costs, food, transportation to/from the airport, travel cost between bases etc..
And how is it after line training?
You have to find an apartment, still pay food etc..
So all I wanna know is, How did you guys make it thru the first couple of months?

[B767PL]

http://k43.pbase.com/o5/42/267742/1/68416045.wGDPMlLK.popcorn.gif

[rubik101]

767 says it all...........you get nothing.......you pay everything......

[Der absolute Hammer]

http://www.dochara.com/ireland/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/famine.jpg
No-it's not Ryanair pilots begging in Baile Atha Cliath.

That's the Famine Memorial in Dublin which commemorates the Great Famine of 1846-1850.
But there is hope. A lot of Protestant charities ran soup kitchens in those days. I don't know why the RCs didn't-probably something to do with transubstantiation.
Anyway, the Prots would give an RC soup and bread if he converted to Prtoestantism. So if you are a Protenstant, tell them at the interview, it might work to your advantage.

[G.S. Willy]

Why don`t you ask your parents to put their house up for sale?, maybe that will cover the cost of becoming a Ryanair pilot?

You can`t seriously expect Ryanair to pay you for playing with a 737 ?
All hobbies cost, you just happened to choose a very expensive one.:rolleyes:

[BurnDownTheRumormill]

Before this descends into the usual drivel - It is very difficult, short of having saved enough beforehand to manage or borrowing from the bank/relatives if these are options depending on you individual circumstances. Unfortunately I've never heard of Ryanair/CAE or SAA having any involvement in helping any find the funds. The line training usually takes place at one base only after that when you're line checked the estimate is about 80% flying from home base and 20% away (varies from base to base), while away from home base you are payed an extra 20 euro/block hour which usually covers the accommodation/transport and few beers comfortably. Of course you first need to raise the requisite funds for the TR, which other than the above I can't offer much advice other than possible the HSBC Professional Studies loan, not a brilliant deal... but a deal.

Best of luck.

[nariman]

Hm..
Was my thread that unclear?
I didn't think that ryan would pay for anything.

Let me straigthen it out.
I am wondering how you (as in you who got accepted into ryan) made it through the line training, in terms of money.
Did your parents support you? You were rich even after flight traingin?
You lived on the streets while doing the type etc?

Tell me your story plz :}

[G.S. Willy]

Was my thread that unclear?
I didn't think that ryan would pay for anything.

Your thread was not unclear at all, I was beeing ironic, and with the follow up post you made my point exactly.

Use the search function on this site, and you will find a lot of threads and posts by other "Space cadets" willing to pay for the glorius rides in the right seat of a jet.

[zerotohero]

Ill swap you my Licence with 1500+ Boeing on it for your 80K
You just need to put on some weight I recon and shave your head and you will be all set,, maybe a few goes on Microsoft Flight sim while reading the SOP's and no one will know the difference

then ill take your 80K have a long holiday where the beer is cold and the women warm and come back to do something else.

ZTH

[beachbumflyer]

nariman,
¿Don't you have any respect for yourself?

Guys like you have, are and will be screwing the pilot carrier.

Stay away, please.

[BigNumber]

Nariman,

just one quick idea. Have you any gold? Has your Mum any rings or other items?

If so, try www.cashmygold.com (http://www.cashmygold.com) or pop into any Ramsdens on any UK High Street. It must be credible as that 'old bird' Anne Diamond is fronting their adverts in the breaks during 'Jez Kyle!'

'Bobby George' did exactly that and now is flying for Ryan Air. I saw him at Stansted!

BN

[BigNumber]

Yet another idea from the Big Number stable.

How about catching some 'free money' by enrolling in a few TV Game Shows?

I spotted some 'fat Noddy' bouncing over foam lolly pops into a swimming pool and being cheered on by the 'short axse' that hosts Top Gear. (You know the one that ploughed his car in.)

Seemingly you can win the requisite £30 k, pay your O'Pikey Dowry, and amuse my kids all in a oner! Result.

[BigNumber]

Why not rent your Mums spare rooms out.

I understand that a "special friend" of Somerset MP David Laws did exactly that to fund his ascent into Ryan Air.

Not only did he gain the required funds but also enjoyed some additional benefits into the bargain!

[BigNumber]

And finally.....

Sarah Fergurson found a novel way to raise her Ryan Air Type Rating Money by selling introductions to her Ex Husband.

All was going well until she spotted the 'Asda' Labels on the Tea Cloths and News of the World note paper.

Assuming that you too have direct access to upper echelons of the Royal family this might prove a viable option. Although beware the angry Ex Mother in Law!! Corgi's have a nsaty nip in their bite.

If all else fails appear on US Giant 'Oprah' and plead an alcohol fuelled moment of foolishness. Works every time.

Good Night from a Down Route bored BN

[nariman]

Ahaaha.. You guys are so funny!

Out of 14 replies I found one that partly aswered my questions.
Thanks BurnDownTheRumormill!

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

Why don't you buy some vaseline and bend over it will cover the cost and line training at the same time.:8

[flufdriver]

:8 Thank you all for the many hilarious comments!

They have made me chuckle while I sit here unable to sleep, feeling cold (10 C in June, here in Helvetia)

and I am so pleased that I am nearing the end of my piloting career, rather than being at the beginning of it!

Carry on

[BigNumber]

I'm glad you appreciate my scribble; it's far more important to keep the 'Real' Troops amused than answer the pointless questions of some 'noodle' with more money than sense.

I'm supposed to be doin the Jepps but can't be bothered. Bit of a lack of motivation this early.

[hollingworthp]

I'm supposed to be doin the Jepps :cool:

This should feature as the main selling point in - 'So you want to be a pilot?' :ok:

[redsnail]

yeah, doing jepp amendments is up there in the thrill factor. :zzz:

Still, a lot better than sorting out the toilet after some spoilt princess took a dump and failed to find the button marked "toilet". That really made my day. :\ I suppose you do have to take the rough with the smooth....

How to raise the money?
2 English 4 letter words.
"work" and "save". ;)

[TOFFAIR]

Why do you want to fly for Ryan if you dont belong to the privileged? Why dont you apply for a company who gives you the TR and pays you a salary on top? some who provides you with uniform and even coffee is for free?! :confused:

[stansdead]

Because those companies don't exist anymore. That's why the "noodles" are paying up for the FR ride.:\

[FCS Explorer]

if you only get seemingly stupid replies to a question - maybe your question was .... ?

[Spunky Monkey]

You are what you eat.
So must have been eating noodles...

[Chesty Morgan]

Because those companies don't exist anymore.

Oh but stansdead they do. But...shock horror, gasp, how awful, simply dreadful, you might have to fly something with those propellery thingies on the front!

And you know what? Some people are just way above that aren't they? Couldn't possibly bring myself down to fly such meagre equipment.

Pathetic.

[Chesty Morgan]

13thstage, why do you consider flying a turbo prop to be a hobby? That is rather a ridiculous statement.

The Q400 pilots at Flybe, I was one once, are as committed and as professional as any other pilot I know and certainly treat their job as more than a hobby.

Really, what is the difference? It is the same job with the same goals flying in the same airspace to similar destinations as anybody else who flies in Europe.

Ok they don't get paid as much as you lot at Ryanair but they haven't shelled out the tens of thousands of pounds that you need to pay Ryanair to employ you (excuse me, give you a crappy contract). In fact they haven't paid for anything.

Have you even looked at the Fybe payscale?

[stansdead]

I hope you weren't calling me pathetic.

I wouldn't know about TP operators. I was fortunate enough to never fly a TP.

Additionally, I have never paid for a rating.

I am an A320 Captain and in my eyes, there are few jobs that pay for your rating anymore.

Discuss.

[Chesty Morgan]

stansdead, no I wasn't calling you pathetic. That was aimed at the "I wanna fly a jet" mob.

There is nothing unfortunate about flying a turboprop. It's an airliner and you fly it from one airport to another. Just like an Airbus. It doesn't matter in the slightest what form of propulsion it uses.

The problem is that the few jobs that are out , available to newbies, where you don't have to pay for everything are more than likely on a turboprop. So why are people paying to fly a jet?

13thstage, apologies for misinterpreting your post. And I agree that the potential money at Ryanair is better but there is nothing wrong with working your way up like we used to. It all adds to your experience bag dunnit?!

[mikehammer]

The problem is that the few jobs that are out , available to newbies, where you don't have to pay for everything are more than likely on a turboprop. So why are people paying to fly a jet?

I think that the simple answer is that it is now the only way in. Those of us who took what was well meaning and sage advice some years ago and got a job flying turboprop aircraft, now find that our peers who ignored the advice and paid for the rating with eg Ryanair, now earn four times our salaries as captains at Ryanair, or have moved on to the Middle East and enjoy excellent terms and conditions there. Meanwhile we are locked into our turboprops (and low salaries - with few smaller operators offering a favourable lifestyle and roster) and jet operators simply are not interested in our experience and hours.

Next time I'll go with my gut rather than take too much advice in future. Basing my decisions on purely financial analysis, I was wrong wrong wrong. What would have been, some nine years ago or so, a £20,000 investment for a rating with FR would have paid off many times over by now. I watched my training colleagues invest this and their salaries quickly became in the order of £40,000 pa whereas I struggled to earn £12,000 flying piston engined aircraft. When I finally got a turboprop job my salary was under £20,000 (I was more than happy at the time of course!) whilst my former training colleagues were earning towards £50,000. As captain one of them now earns over £90,000, whereas I get £25,000 with no sign of captaincy on the horizon. Now I know money isn't everything, far from it, but who thinks I made the right decision now? I don't.

[eocvictim]

This is one of the most sobering things I have read in a long time. I honestly don’t know whether to vomit or cry. The only feeling I can liken it to is finding out there is an asteroid heading towards earth and there's nothing we can do.

After 12 years in Australian aviation I've seen a lot of things slowly change, the most recent being the introduction of the Jetstar Cadet scheme. I knew that this was a lead in to the way thing were done in the UK but I had no idea it was this bad.

I guess I should treat the next few years as if they were my last, because it sure seems they will be. Thank you sell outs!

[pilot999]

Hey losers .you should have joined the same time as me 10 years ago. I'm on a much better deal,:) paid for by you guys heheheheehee:) any chance you can pay my tax as well:ok:

[Bruce Wayne]

this thread succinctly emphasizes why the profession is down the sh!tter..

.. snorting, guffawing and sanctimony at those looking to establish a professional life career in this industry and ignoring the harsh industry realities.

Professional ?

This thread leaves me shaking my head at the 'professionalism' in this industry.

Well done guys. While you snort and guffaw with your sanctimony, you are as equally as culpable those you decry.

grow a pair.

:mad:

[G.S. Willy]

The current harsh industry reality, is by large created by ourselves, and our willingness to do anything to get ahead.

Many years ago the first, bright, newly licenced pilot, came up with the idea of paying for a relevant type-rating, to get ahead in the competition for a particular job. Leaving those whith a couple of thousand hours instructing, cropdusting, or flying mail in a piston twin at night, in the dust.
Soon, his classmates, and those coming after, saw his genious, and did the same thing.

The employers, of course, greeted this new development with open arms, saving money on training.

Further down the line, "employers", and training facilities realized that some people will stop at nothing, in the pursuit of getting into the right seat of a jet. They came up with an ever increasing number of ideas on how to make money on these people, soon you had to pay for: type-rating, linetraining, hotac, transportation, travel to base(changing at will), uniform, id card, sim-check, FC upgrade and more.
Creating todays harsh industry reality.

I am sure it will not stop here, as money is everything, talent, aptitude, and selection is nothing.

I am clueless on what to do about this, the only hope beeing that someone finally got up and said "No, this, I am not willing to accept". I fear that in the future, intelligent, pragmatic young peolpe will not concider flying a "carreer", as it is, in my opinion, not a profession anymore, but as I earlier stated,: "a rather expensive hobby", for noodleheads.

[Bruce Wayne]

G.S. Willy,

Thank you for the history lesson. I can assure you i dont need it thank you.

Your assertion that it was a newly licensed pilot somewhere in the world started the P2F trend is frankly utter rubbish. Meanwhile you negate to consider contributing factors. Here's a tip, read Mike Hammer's post above. Have a think about it. Then read it again. Then, have another think about it.

Then re-read the snorting, guffawing and sanctimony dripping posts in this thread, then have another think.

Then think about professional behaviour, attitude and mindsets. Then re-read this thread again.

With the level of disdain dsiplayed for people starting out in this industry, ie cadets, by those currently established in this industry, (see this thread) it's patently obvious that there is neither solidarity, nor respect for those at lower levels.

Frankly, who is more dedicated to a life career in the industry, the person who borrows and pays for it out of their own pocket, or the person that didnt put their hand in their pocket and had it all paid for them, just becuase in a different time, with different economics the operator picked up the tab?

You think people out there WANT to have to pay for a TR ? If they had a choice to pay for a TR themselves, or let the operator pick up the tab they would choose to pay for it themselves ?

The days of a paid TR and a 2 year bond are over, it's unlikely they will be back. that is a harsh reality.


I am clueless on what to do about this,


I am not.

Thank you for your continual bold emphasis of my wording harsh industry reality, however, what you are intimating by that, frankly I have no idea, nor care.

The current harsh industry reality, is by large created by ourselves, and our willingness to do anything to get ahead.

It is and it isnt.

[G.S. Willy]

How stupid of me, trying to teach history to the protecktor of Gotham city.

Since you are not clueless on how to change the dire situaton the business is in, maybe you could show us the way out of this?

Please use your superiour intelligence, strenght, courage and vast experience to crush the evil forces trying to destroy us, we are depending on you :eek:

[Caudillo]

This is one of the most sobering things I have read in a long time. I honestly don’t know whether to vomit or cry. The only feeling I can liken it to is finding out there is an asteroid heading towards earth and there's nothing we can do.

This wins the sense of perspective award hands down.

[Bruce Wayne]

G.S. Willy,

some of us are actually putting effort and energy into improvements in the industry, rather than just harping on about it.


How stupid of me, trying to teach history to the protecktor of Gotham city.

Since you are not clueless on how to change the dire situaton the business is in, maybe you could show us the way out of this?

Please use your superiour intelligence, strenght, courage and vast experience to crush the evil forces trying to destroy us, we are depending on you


you expect a childish post like that to get a serious response in addressing the problems. Are you an idiot or do you just have one writing your posts for you ?

Over and out.

13th stage.

a fair and valid point and that does need to be considered and accounted for in the situation.

Caudillo,

indeed.

[G.S. Willy]

Can you please tell us what effort and energy you are putting in to improving this industry?
Apart from beeing member of Ifalpa, and my local union, I would really like to know what else can be done.

rgrds: Obviously ignorant and stupid, and then some

[EI-CON]

To all you guys ranting on about flying turboprops, name a couple of turboprop outfits who are hiring low hour pilots right now? Ive applied to many and didnt even get an email back so why arent guys flying TP's? Because non of them are hiring thats why! Id say 99% of low hour guys would take a TP or piston job if they could get them but there are none, yes there will always be the few who only want to fly jets but these are a very small minority.

[clanger32]

The other thing that people fail to recognise in this interminable argument (and I accept fully that some very experienced operators - notably Flintstone, with whom I have locked horns on this many times! - disagree) is that the cost of the base CPL/ME/IR now means that one simply can not take the jobs that Mikehammer (I think it was) alludes to. £12k a year simply doesn't even begin to pay the loan repayments (or as with those like me who didn't take a loan, provide a return on investment).

What's killing this industry is the pincer movement of ever increasing cost of entry and ever decreasing Ts&Cs.

I'm sure that 90% of all newly qualified pilots don't necessarily want to move straight to MRJT operations for any other reason than the financials.

You want to change it, make it a FCL that for Jet operations you must have 500 hours turboprop and for Turboprop ops, you must have 500 ME.
But of course, that could never happen....

[pilot999]

sure its unfortunate flying turbo props, why would anyone fly one other than to avoid paying for a Jet Rating. In reality no one employs people with turbo prop experience, other than to put them back on another turbo prop, turbo prop guys basically clog up the skyS:mad:

[Nightfire]

sure its unfortunate flying turbo props, why would anyone fly one other than to avoid paying for a Jet Rating. In reality no one employs people with turbo prop experience, other than to put them back on another turbo prop, turbo prop guys basically clog up the skyS

Exactly.
Jobs for newbies on PTLs are just as rare as on jets.
Jobs on piston shakers are, at least in Europe and in the Middle East, non-existent. :}

Not even mentioning the ridiculously low payment a B200, Dash-7 or LET 410 First Officer could expect to earn, but:
The hours you fly on a turboprop are absolutely worthless when applying for a job on a jet. Nobody's interested in that. The requirement for newjoiners is usually something like "500 hours flown on glass-cockpit with a mtow above 60 tons".
The IFR-hours you might have on a Seneca are not even worth logging! :\

[TacomaSailor]

In 2000 I sold a successful consulting business and, being in my early-50s, decided to start the career I had once pursued and still dreamed of – being a commercial pilot. In 1967 I was part of the original UAL program that guaranteed me an FE or FO TRAINING slot IF I completed my PPL & Instrument license within a year. UAL would lend me the money for the PPL & Instrument licenses and I would repay it during my first five years of UAL employment. I was almost ready to drop out of my junior year in college and join United when my new draft number came up single digit. United could not guarantee me a deferment, even if I was in their program, so I stayed in school and kept my deferment through 1969.

Thirty-some years later I again decided to follow my dream. My consulting business involved lots of financial analysis and project management so I applied those skills to the cost of gaining my flying licenses and the necessary flight time to have a realistic chance of flying as a FO with an commuter or regional airline. I talked to many flight schools, instructor pilots, commuter and freight company pilots, and personnel departments. During the 2002 time frame it became very obvious to me that the industry was changing and there was little likelihood of my gaining a first officer rating on even a turboprop commuter without a very large outlay of money and time. And, the 2nd scale pay rates for new FOs did not allow recapture of the training costs in any reasonable time frame.

It seemed obvious to me that I was going to have to spend $40,000 - $50,000 USD to get enough time to realistically apply for an FO position. It was obvious to me that I would have to fly a lot of dark and stormy nights, small commuters, and do a lot of instructing to get to even a turboprop commuter right hand seat. Pay-to-Fly was not yet an option, threat?, and it certainly would have been another negative in my calculations.

My advantage was I could easily afford to spend the money and the time but the disadvantage was I was old enough that the starry eyed optimism of my twenties was no longer present. In 2002 - 2003 I could not see how the economics of purchasing a commercial license and flight experience could result in a net gain over an 15-year career. I still wanted to be a commercial pilot but could not make financial sense of that dream. I still do not understand how ab-initio pilots who must pay all the way thru their TR and even into their FO time can expect to receive a positive economic result.

I do understand the desire to fly but the economics of starting out as a young, low hour, heavily indebted commercial pilot do not look positive from any rational economic analysis.

[latetonite]

I still prefer an experienced turboprob F/O next to me in a jet than a VNAV pushing FMC programmer, not able to handfly a raw data 360 in IMC conditions.

[Bruce Wayne]

Can you please tell us what effort and energy you are putting in to improving this industry?
Apart from beeing member of Ifalpa, and my local union, I would really like to know what else can be done.

rgrds: Obviously ignorant and stupid, and then some


yes. i can. however i wont.

This is a public forum nor do i know you from a hole in the ground.

[Bruce Wayne]

You want to change it, make it a FCL that for Jet operations you must have 500 hours turboprop and for Turboprop ops, you must have 500 ME.
But of course, that could never happen....


Clanger,

Indeed it wont happen/shouldn't because that would limit the industry and its growth even more.


A TP will again require a TR. Which will leave either the cadet having to pay up for it, or the operator paying for it and bonding the cadet to the operation for 'X' period.

Also, we simply dont have the TP traffic in the UK (or indeed the EU) that would provide the kind of pilot numbers that are required just for current numbers to be maintained, let alone for considering growth.

Another caveat to that, is that TP aircraft are still in the public transport sector, and the difference in public transport operations between a TP with no more than 19 seats and say a Dash-8 with 78 seats is ?

Then there is the consideration put forward of a 1500 hrs minimum for pilots going into public transport operations.

Again, in the UK (and EU) we simply dont have the levels of non-public transport GA traffic that could ever provide for the number of pilots required to maintain even a marginal decline, let alone to maintain current numbers let alone industry growth.

if you are being paid for your services as a pilot, carrying passengers or not, you will be required to have a commercial ticket. and if you have a commercial ticket, then a mandated level of minimum hours to use that is going to have to lead to some possible routes..

you pay for the hours to rent an aircraft and beat up the sky to get to 1500 hours. so, again you're paying to fly again, and just how many trips to le' touquet can one person do ? then, it will likely take a decade of weekend flying to get to that level of hours, and with the cost, then your back to having an established career to pay for it... more issues here.

Next is there any evidence to say that someone who has built up 1500 hours of weekend flying and beating up the skies out of controlled airspace is any more/less safe than someone who started out in the right seat of a commercial transport aircraft at 300 or 400 hours ?

Instructing ? likewise. The UK (and the EU) doesnt have the number of flight schools that could ever hope to provide the numbers.

Besides, the operational costs for flights schools is prohibitive in the EU. Look at where the 'big' flight schools send their students, take for example OAA... Phonenix AZ. The weather is more consistent and its cheaper.

Now if you're throwing 500 hours of ME time as requirement, it becomes even more problematic.


The answer to the conundrum is actually quite simple. While the number of issues and sub-issues thrown into the mix add another layer to 'the onion', more legislation and tinkering with the FCL's wont change anything a jot. More to the point, it will make things worse. That is not where the answer is.

What will change things is a simple change to allow the industry to be competetive, nationally, regionally and internationally.

Equally important, we need to allow growth not place a stanglehold on growth.

[clanger32]

Bruce,
As is often the case, I've just re-read my post and recognise that my last sentence probably comes across as sarcasm - I actually meant it in the literal sense....for many of the reasons you mention, limiting the route to "the airlines" in such a manner would be totally unworkable and fail to provide anything like a big enough stream of pilots to maintain the current fleets, let alone provide growth.

I don't know what the answer is, myself - but I do know that it's not really cricket to blame someone, anyone, for playing the hand that's dealt to them. I DO NOT advocate true P2F under any circumstances, but pretty much every single one of us thats gained the blue book in the last 2.5 years understands that if we can find a job at all, likely we'll be paying for at least the type rating, if not some form of line training as well.

As I think you said earlier, it's heartbreaking to see so many experienced crews treat the newbies with such contempt when actually it's the reality of the world that newly minted pilots are born into. Now i know many of the experienced crews will say that we should have known what we were getting ourselves into - well A) we did - at the time- but the subsequent economic slowdown was unprecedented in scale and vel[fer?]ocity which changed the landscape into which we emerged totally and B) Maybe so, but the same was true when you trained - but it didn't stop you did it? So why do you expect anyone else to act differently than you did?

My overall point however, was that I don't think many actually have a burning desire to fly jets and jets alone - it's the financial rewards that jets bring that cause that desire and further are necessary to provide any kind of economic sense to the investment, given the ever escalating cost of training.

[D O Guerrero]

Bruce - couldn't agree more.
As to the experience or otherwise built up in 1500 hours of GA flying, I think you're spot on. Some people may indeed do something useful in that time, but the majority do not seem to.
When I finished my fATPL training, I would have quite liked to have worked for a TP operator - but guess what? Very, very few of them wanted any pilots. The ones that did, offered pay that would literally barely cover the rent. So I took the un-welcome step of paying for a Self Sponsored TR with Ryanair. After tax relief and a VAT refund, the cost was somewhere North of £13,000. Certainly nowhere near the 30k that is the standard quote if you talk to the likes of G S Willy. Yes there was an initial period that was quite financially tough, but by the end of the first year I was already up on what I would have earned with Flybe, for example. So who is really paying to fly? Not me. People are very quick to criticise the "pay to fly culture" of some operators, but their schemes are no worse than the pittances being offered by some airlines that "pay for your type rating". We all pay one way or the other. And forever it shall be...

[Chesty Morgan]

Guys this isn't hard to find. I lifted it straight from the Dragonair website.

At least 3000 hours total, including either 500 jet hours or 1000 multi engine turbo prop hours in command of a multi crew operation;

So your assertions that T/P hours are completely useless are completely wrong.

So for a free Q400 type rating and a 3 year bond you'd have close to the required number of hours for Dragonair.

Not a bad investment considering it wont cost you anything.

[INNflight]

The hours you fly on a turboprop are absolutely worthless when applying for a job on a jet. Nobody's interested in that. The requirement for newjoiners is usually something like "500 hours flown on glass-cockpit with a mtow above 60 tons".
The IFR-hours you might have on a Seneca are not even worth logging!

Can someone push him down a cliff pleeehaase? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[G.S. Willy]

quote:
"yes. i can. however i wont."

Called your bluff then.

[BigNumber]

And here we are 'rounding on each other' all so some chav, with an ear ring, can get a subsidized holiday in alicante!

Quintessentially, it will prove nearly impossible to earn a realistic living performing a functions others will pay to do for fun! ;)

[EGCC4284]

1000 multi engine turbo prop hours in command

COMMAND? Does this just apply to TP Captains then

[biscuit74]

MIke Hammer.

Your post is a sobering and fascinating one - especially when taken in conjunction with several others. That airline managements appear not to value turboprop experience, and that that appears also to be backed up by the views of one or two on here, is appalling, if correct.

I think you are all explaining, rather more clearly than you might wish, one of the major challenges in the airline industry today and why we see what may be an increasing trend towards eincidents and accidents involving lack of what I would describe as basic 'situational awareness and basic airmanship. The sort of, frequently somewhat defensive, thinking that can only come from extensive real world experience.

Since the turboprop drivers are more often down in the dirty stuff and do more sectors, possibly in more challenging conditions on average, their experience ought to hold them in very good stead. That management seems not to understand that is worrying.
I think back to the old days of Air Anglia on the EAST Coast run in the UK. Those F27 pilots earned their pay and were super aircraft handlers, mostly becuase they had to be. Confidence inspiring on bad winter's nights as SLF.

I take nothing way from 'pure' jet pilots - the best are superb, and it has its major challenges too. However I strongly feel that the more areas of flying you experience and understand, the better a pilot you are likely to be.

To the original poster - good luck & apologies for hi-jacking the thread's original purpose. It sounds a difficult and expensive, high risk path you comtemplate.

[pilot999]

:):):D:ok:And where are most of these Air Anglia pilots that are still working? For :rolleyes:Ryanair.:ok:. Best job in the world. :ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::sad:

[Chesty Morgan]

EGCC4284, yes.

[Bruce Wayne]

G.S. Willy

quote:
"yes. i can. however i wont."

Called your bluff then.


no you just proved conclusively, you're an idiot.

1. you disregarded more than 50% of the post, namely this This is a public forum nor do i know you from a hole in the ground.

and

2. despite it being specifically pointed out to you, you cannot comprehend This is a public forum nor do i know you from a hole in the ground.

*plonk*

[Bruce Wayne]

Chesty,

your post here :


Guys this isn't hard to find. I lifted it straight from the Dragonair website.


Quote:
At least 3000 hours total, including either 500 jet hours or 1000 multi engine turbo prop hours in command of a multi crew operation;
So your assertions that T/P hours are completely useless are completely wrong.

So for a free Q400 type rating and a 3 year bond you'd have close to the required number of hours for Dragonair.

Not a bad investment considering it wont cost you anything.


and EGCC's comment of


COMMAND? Does this just apply to TP Captains then


Rather makes the point of "a free TR and a 3 year bond to dragoinair" being a moot point.

Dragonair isnt in the EU first off and if anything it supports the alternative position. Considering they specify 500 hours jet time or 1000 hours of command time in a TP. Indicates the difference in perspective. 500 hours in the right seat is equatable to 1000 hours of TP time in the left seat. go figure.

now if we consider mike hammer's assertion..


When I finally got a turboprop job my salary was under £20,000 (I was more than happy at the time of course!) whilst my former training colleagues were earning towards £50,000. As captain one of them now earns over £90,000, whereas I get £25,000 with no sign of captaincy on the horizon.


So if anything your assertion destroys the non-P2F route.

With offers out there of 500 hours P2F time, that would get you in the 'interested' pile of C.V.'s / Resumes in Dragonair recruitmentm yet mike hammer, with a number of years and hours of TP flying, with no sign of a captaincy on the horizon would get his C.V./Resume in the bin, even if he did have a visa to live and work in China, and converted his licence over with the associated cost implications.

when we consider tacoma's closing point..


the economics of starting out as a young, low hour, heavily indebted commercial pilot do not look positive from any rational economic analysis


clanger's point is driven home by his closing comment of:

it's the financial rewards that jets bring that cause that desire and further are necessary to provide any kind of economic sense to the investment, given the ever escalating cost of training.


so, going back to my original point in this thread. i am disgusted, flatly phyiscally disgusted by the snorting, guffawing and sanctimony of pilots who are flying the line, building seniority, that got a paid TR, back ibn the day, at the frankly sh!t career potential that the news have, having to cough up for a TR themselves, with a summer contract position and no guarantees.

Any airline, no matter how big its fleet can go Tango Uniform in a very short space of time, its happened before and it will happen again and anyone could find themselves back looking for a flight deck position.

[G.S. Willy]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation (http://www.pprune.org/#head), search (http://www.pprune.org/#p-search)
Not to be confused with grandiose delusions (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Grandiose_delusions).
Grandiosity is chiefly associated with narcissistic personality disorder (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder), but also commonly features in manic (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Mania) or hypomanic (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Hypomania) episodes of bipolar disorder (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Current_diagnostic_criteria_for_bipolar_disorder).[1] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-DSM-IV-TR-0)
It refers to an unrealistic sense of superiority, a sustained view of oneself as better than others that causes the narcissist to view other with disdain or as inferior. It also refers to a sense of uniqueness, the belief that few others have in common with oneself and that one can only be understood by a few or very special people.[2] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-Ronningstam-1)
Grandiosity is distinct from grandiose delusions (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Grandiose_delusions), in that the sufferer has insight into his loss of touch with reality (he is aware that his behavior is considered unusual).[citation needed (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
[edit (http://www.pprune.org/w/index.php?title=Grandiosity&action=edit&section=1)] Narcissistic criteria for grandiosity

The grandiosity section of the Diagnostic Interview for Narcissism (DIN) (Second edition) is as follows:[3] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-gunderson-2)

The person exaggerates (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Exaggeration) talents, capacity and achievements in an unrealistic way.
The person believes in her/his invulnerability or does not recognise his/her limitations.
The person has grandiose fantasies.
The person believes that he/she does not need other people.
The person regards himself/herself as unique or special when compared to other people.
The person regards himself/herself as generally superior to other people.
The person behaves self-centeredly and/or self-referentially.
The person appears or behaves in a boastful or pretentious way.[edit (http://www.pprune.org/w/index.php?title=Grandiosity&action=edit&section=2)]

I am sure you had a hard time choosing between Bruce Wayne, and Clark Kent when you decided what superhero you wanted to be :ok:

[D O Guerrero]

And you're calling Bruce Wayne crazy...?

[45989]

I hope all you guys realise that most PROPER airlines monitor this site as well as facebook and all the other sites you can make an ass of yourself on.
Be smarter!

[mikehammer]

Biscuit74

Thank you for your comments. I agree wholeheartedly of course, and hope (probably in vain, alas) for the day when like minded people make their way back into airline management!

[45989]

Correct. Real Airlines do not require new hires to pay for ratings.
That is purely a feature of the "bottom feeders"
Lurid colours mandatory (blue/ yellow or orange usually, though often including stars).

[Chesty Morgan]

Bruce,

They don't specify 500 hours jet time OR 1000 t/p command time. It says...
either 500 jet hours or 1000 multi engine turbo prop hours in command of a multi crew operation

Maybe my highlighting confused you but that means either 500 hours jet command time OR 1000 hours t/p command time.

I don't know who mike hammer works for but at my lot there are/were F/O's getting a command on the Q400 with 2000TT. So another year and a month on top of that and you have your 1000 hours command time, no bond and you didn't pay however many thousands of pounds to get a job. And I know Dragonair are not in the EU but I didn't say they were and nobody has really specified that have they?

I haven't destroyed the non P2F route in the slightest. I am merely pointing out that YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY TO GET A FLYING JOB with useful hours.

Do you really think that someone with "500 hours P2F time" will be considered above someone who has flown and proved themselves in regional flying in Europe with over a 3000 hours and command time? The answer to that is a resounding no by the way.

[Bruce Wayne]

Chesty,

ok, appreciate your viewpoint, however you also have to consider that in certain cases management may be dumbasses, but their asses ain't dumb.

Taking the view of going off to 'XYZ' carrier for 3 years because of getting a free type rating out of it, and having to stick out three years before bumping off to another carrier with your TR, will do what exactly ?

As an operator, that is an expense they are going to have to carry. Not just the cost of TR, but the cost of advertising, interviewing, training, line checking, dealing with crewing issues etc etc over a large number of pilot every three years.

That cost has to be picked up somewhere. If using a carrier for a 'free' TR that cost in the operational overheads will have to be passed on to somewhere.

The passengers ?

That puts an overhead on the ticket price, which in comparison to another carrier that doesnt have a high pilot turnover getting their 'free' TR's, which then maken the operator un competetive in the market place. Bingo, the growth and expansion of the airline is now limited.

Taking the attitude of belting off to a carrier for a 'free' TR then bouncing out elsewhere is equally as responsible for the descent of T&C's.

[mikehammer]

Chesty

I too take your point. However the fact remains that, having taken the route I have taken, I do not qualify for the job in your example. Had I taken the career path my former training colleagues took which I outlined earlier, I would qualify by now. Notwithstanding, if I had, and I did, I probably wouldn't apply, I'd probably stay put flying new 737s at Ryanair. Additionally I would have had a higher salary for a greater number of years. That would seem to me to indicate what would have been a sound financial investment, had I not made the wrong decision all those years ago.

I'm not moaning, I have enjoyed all the flying I have done, flown with some highly skilled captains in challenging conditions and learned a great deal. I don't know if I would have learned these raw flying skills in pay to fly land, so the investment analysis is not as simple as I make it. However it remains true to say that I am not very saleable now, whereas with some 3000 jet hours I would be moreso.

[A320rider]

Do you really think that someone with "500 hours P2F time" will be considered above someone who has flown and proved themselves in regional flying in Europe with over a 3000 hours and command time

knowing than most recruiters are pilots, I don't think they will be happy to hire guys who pay to play!

P2F CV go directly to the bin!!!:ouch:

yes, and I am RECRUITER for a big airline.

how can I spot them: guys who logged 500h exactly on the 320 or B737!

[45989]

320 rider
Zero to "hero" in no time! Amazing! Recruiting after so little time. Based on your posts' a little hard to go along with?
I think a neck winding in your microsoft simworld would do you a power of good.
I am 100% opposed to the p2f Prosi**utes Btw.
Cheers

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

Bruce Wayne sounds like MO's right hand man and justifies his argument from an airline management point of view. NOT a pilots point of view. He seems to have forgotten the different models concerning LCC's and Service airlines.

When one has taken the P2F route you have justify yourself. It is without doubt that many pilots around the world blame this phenomenon on the degrading T&C's. Furthermore I have seen a degradation in the handling skills of the next generation of pilots. This is because the industry encourages dependency on automation. Those turbo prop boys get lots of it where as the P2F jet boys don't. Is the standard of pilots getting better. In my opinion the answer is no.

We are churning out pilots from the auto-flight factories and they are a product of their environment. after all you get what you pay for. And with the dog eat dog mentality of society. Standing up for what is morally correct is quite understandably thrown out of the window.

Do the young guns get treated badly P2F or non P2F well definitely not in any flight decks I have operated in.

[ba038]

"I hope all you guys realise that most PROPER airlines monitor this site as well as facebook and all the other sites you can make an ass of yourself on.
Be smarter!"


- This is very true indeed!