Jetstar Hiring.... Cadets?!?!

[bagchucka]

Pilot Cadet Program - Jetstar Airways (http://www.jetstar.com/au/en/pilot-cadet-program.aspx)

[c173]

party time

[novice110]

And let the games begin ladies and gentlemen!
Bring it.

[Wizofoz]

I can't for the life of me see why Jetstar would do this, unless it has a financial interest in the training fees being paid.

I've flown with the product of such c=schemes in the UK and the UAE, and in the end, the graduates make decent enough FOs and eventually make perfectly acceptable Captains...

HOWEVER that is in environments where there isn't the large GA scene like in Aus.

With hundreds of highly experienced guys waiting in line for a chance at a Jet, why would J* give preference to zero experience newcomers?

Whilst I have no problem with Cadets generally, I can also assure everyone that a guy or gal with significant GA or Regional experience makes a great FO and a very good Captain in as short a time as the company needs.

[RodH]

Nice and cheap too!!!!
The TOTAL cost of our Jetstar APP FIRST OFFICERTM course is AUD154,456 including the fees for the SUT Associate Degree education which unlocks Government FEE-HELP
Jetstar will pay $21000 for the A320 end.

:confused::confused:

[Artificial Horizon]

Having experience helping with similar cadet programmes in the UK, I can tell you that these cadets are a win/win for Jetstar. After the salary sacrifice over 6 years I can almost guarantee that Jetstar will end up having made money from this deal. The way it used to work in the UK is the airline would get a significant discount on buying the bulk training off the provider, the cadet pays the out of the brouchure price for the training and then salary sacrifices a significant proportion of the FO pay for a few years. I see that Jetstar is going to bond the cadet for 6 years. Jetstar gains a guaranteed flow of pilots into the right hand seat who effectively are 'trapped' for 6 years during which they will no doubt be eligible for upgrade to command, also on a reduced wage. The upside for the cadet is a career path without having to p*ss around in GA, no matter what anyone says (having flown with many 200 hour jet pilots) these cadets will make fine airline pilots. Interesting times ahead, it is about time this part of the world caught up.

[hcmcmcclown]

I am 40 years old with over twenty years experience as an LAE in the engineering side of RPT operaters, and am looking at a change of careerpath.

I am between jobs and am asking for any advice from experienced airline pilots. Do you think I am too old to apply for this cadet program? Would my experience be suitable for this cadet scheme?

Any advice appreciated.

McClown.

[Mr Sheen]

Makes the Qf cadet program look cheap...Hmm what would the better option be??

[Offcut]

I'm stoked that my tax payer dollars will be spent funding Jetstar cadets to attend CTC so they can then become a source of dirt cheap labour for an airline in direct competition with my employer, who happens to be majority owned by the taxpayers of New Zealand. Is there no logic left in this country?

[c173]

will this become pretty much the only lane of entry to the airlines in the near future??

[Sqwark2000]

Fark'n hell!!! $AUD84K for an A320 rating....

So the cadet will repay $42K over 6 yrs whilst bonded.... $7K nett salary sacrifice per year (about $10k gross based on 30% income tax)

So in effect, that's about the normal cost if you were to do it privately therefore you are funding your type rating over 6 years through salary sacrifice.

Isn't that going back to how they used to do it??


Crikey!

[waren9]

Puts a new slant on "buy yourself a job" i guess. Applicants will have to weigh up a six year bond and a sh1t salary versus more certainty over the GA path. Dont know which'd actually cost more.

As for the "subsidy" from Jetstar, I doubt it. I'd be willing to bet my left one that students will not be drawing a salary until completion of line training. i.e. Jetstar will get maybe 150 (or more) productive hours with each F/O for free. This is "pay for your line training" by another name.

The devil is in the detail, and for advertising purposes they will tart up the deal with lots of magic numbers.

This is has a commercial advantage for Jetstar and thats it. Pure and simple.

[Sqwark2000]

Reading it again, the wording is shady already. Total cost of the ACP is $84K and J* will fund 50% through sponsorship to a maximum of $21K?? If 21K is the max that's approx. $63K to sacrifice over your 6yr bond.... $15K gross salary sacrifice/yr

But if you want to start from scratch and do the Ab-initio programme it only costs an additional $16K for your CPL/MECIR/ATPL Theory (with meals, accom and transport in NZ). That part of it is cheap actually.

[shortshortz]

And that $15k pre tax will come off a wage for a Jetstar Junior FO, they won't meet the requirements for a Jetstar First Officer :rolleyes:

[atminimums]

I sincerely hope that not too many young, aspiring pilots get sucked into this program.

I myself came close to accepting a spot on the Q cadetship (2009), until I pulled my head in and woke up. There is no such thing as a free ticket, and in this game, even money doesn't promise 5hit.

Even if a potential cadet (or the parents) has the funds to spend on a program like this, it does not mean he/she has the skill or motivation in order to finish the program to an acceptable level. At least training the old school way allows a trainee pilot to gauge whether or not it is the right thing for them at the different stages along the way.

I really hope that those young, or even older ones out there aspiring for an airline job have the chance to think this through before committing to such a farcicle program.

mins

[Cypher]

I sincerely hope that not too many young, aspiring pilots get sucked into this program.

HAHAHAHAHHHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

If the REX cadetship debacle was anything to go by, there will be people lining up around the corner to try and get into this program..

People see.. Jetstar, Shiny Jet, Airline Job, Cadet Program, Cessna 150 to Airbus A320....

People don't see, sh!te pay, 6 year bond, limited upgrade potential, Salary sacrifice, $150,000ish upfront...

Here we already have a 40ish year old person already experienced in other fields of aviation, asking and expressing a interest in joining the scheme...

To be honest, my hat goes off to Jetstar, because they've basically found a way for the F/O to become a fare paying passenger..

If what happened to the CTC/Easyjet scheme is anything to go by and what it's become, this will become another revenue stream for Jet*.. and become familiar with the term 'hold pool'....

All day every day low wages!!

[The Green Goblin]

One thing is for sure, it will obliterate the Rex cadet scheme :}

I'll be pissed if I find out this is why the cancelled the upcoming ground schools however :{

[The_Pharoah]

lol I laugh when I the comments on this thread...quite funny really. Jetstar comes out with the cadet scheme and all the knives are out. But then again err, whats the alternative? $80k CPL + MECIR (or three year av degree) and then what? take your ticket and join the queue of backpacking CPLs all hoping for the 2 slots flying old bugsmashers around FNQ or NT for pittance?

I'm probably going to get flamed for this but what the hell. Isn't the ultimate aim for a lot of pilots to get into an airline? sure its not QF or VB or Cathay but, as evidenced in other threads, there is NO future in GA if you want to actually own a house and make a living. So I don't get it....yeah okay 6 year bond, but you'd 'theoretically' have a few thousand hours, even as FO and who knows a probable upgrade to the LHS or the ability to jump ship complete with rating and hours. But whats better, you're INside looking OUT...not the other way round. I for one wouldn't mind this programme esp when most of the outlay is done by the govt (which you pay back in accordance with FEE HELP anyway).

So I say good on you Jetstar (and hopefully VB). Its not perfect but then again...whats the alternative eh? :rolleyes:

[Going Boeing]

Reading it again, the wording is shady already.

Of course it's shady - Buchanan is ex Boston Consulting Group and his business training is "don't put anything in place unless there is a buck in it". Without a doubt, JQ will make money out of everyone who signs up for this cadetship.

If the young aspirants are smart enough to take a long term view (ignore the glare from the shiny jets), they would find GA training cheaper and most of the jobs they subsequently get (prior to an airline gig) will give them some of the best experiences in life (airline flying is so restricted now through the use of QAR's etc that many pilots reflect back on the fun flying they did prior to joining an airline).

[damo1089]

good luck getting it done in 18 months. Oxford cant even deal with their current load.

[compressor stall]

there is NO future in GA if you want to actually own a house and make a living

Hmm - I live in hope that the more of these cadet schemes sucker people in, fewer people will be in GA. That will drive the salaries at the top end of GA higher with a desperate shortage of GA skilled pilots. Pair that with the effect of the Multi Crew Licence....

We are already seeing GA salaries approaching and in some cases exceeding J* FO salaries. Not that J* should be considered a yardstick, but it might be indicative of things to come.

If I was the CEO of a aeromedical outfit or specialist 24/7 GA mob, I'd be concerned. Supply and demand...

[alidad]

The question that has not been is "what will the salary of a cadet be once checked to line".

bet you London to a brick it will not be the current F/O salary structure.

[puff]

Another beauty in the FAQs

OAA will charge a standard Skills Assessment Fee of AUD500 to those candidates who reach Stage 2 or above.

[Led Zep]

Are you f$@king sh!tt!ng me? No wonder this "profession" is screwed! :yuk:
Flame me all you want, there is no way Jetstar (or any other business) would do something like this unless they were to recieve significant financial gain from it.

Over to you, Virgin and Tiger.

[Van Gough]

wow. Now there is even less of a future in being a pilot than there was before. Surely there has to be some sort of labour law being violated somewhere with these schemes..:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Scorpion83]

Just as atminimums said, if you do this cadetship, how do you know that you won't graduate and not be given a job. I mean for Cathay, it is highly likely as they have invested the money into you and are of course looking for a return on investment.

Jetstar looses nothing if they can't slot you into an FO position. They just make some additional revenue from that intake and some very unhappy cadets.

If there is an abundance of people applying for a JQ cadetship, will JQ be likely to hold back and only accept what they need or will they accept more in order to generate more profit, leaving those who just miss out ~$85k out of pocket?

[Jabawocky]

Am I guaranteed a job?
These new programs with Jetstar provide a fantastic opportunity to enter the airline profession and whilst Jetstar is committed to providing a career opportunity to as many applicants as possible the numbers are quite naturally limited. At the outset of the program it must be remembered that no cadet training program guarantees a job, since the individual trainee has to achieve the competency requirements of both CTC and Jetstar during the training. However, subject to that and there being no change to Jetstar’s recruitment plans, you will be offered a job with the airline on successful completion of the program.
and risk v benefit is???
However, subject to that and there being no change to Jetstar’s recruitment plans, you will be offered a job with the airline on successful completion of the program.J:hmm:

Subject to.....no change to....will be offered..... :=

[Scorpion83]

I've answered my own question.

"Successful completion of the course leads to employment as an A320 First Officer with Jetstar. (pending Jetstar vacancies within Jetstar)"

Advanced Cadet Programme (ACP) (http://www.jetstar.com/au/en/pilot-cadet-program/who-is-oxford/oxford-acp.aspx)

In other words, if the airline grows there'll be slots, if there is a second slump in the global economy, you could be in trouble.

NO GUARANTEE

[puff]

All these issues aside, I guarantee their websites are probably on the verge of crashing currently with applications !

[c173]

“We anticipate up to 20,000 applications for this attractive new program which seeks to remove some of the traditional barriers to becoming an airline pilot, demonstrating the high demand to enter this highly skilled and sought-after profession,” Jetstar Chief Executive Officer Bruce Buchanan said.

Aviation Business: Jetstar launches cadet pilot training program (http://www.aviationbusiness.com.au/news/jetstar-launches-cadet-pilot-training-program)

[Artificial Horizon]

This is the way of the world, I came through a similar scheme over in the UK many years ago and it was also not guaranteed to have a position at the end of it all. I was luck as were 99% of the other 'cadets', the few who were delayed were the first to be taken on when times turned good. This was due to the fact that once hired the airline could pay us significantly less than taking a Direct Entry FO. This scheme will not fufill all of J*'s pilot recruitment requirement, around 140 pilots are needed in the next year or so and they are planning on authorising 70 cadets who at the earliest won't be available until the end of 2011. For those who can afford this scheme it is a great leg up on the career ladder, the potential to be flying the A320 in your late teens or early 20's means that even completing the 6 year bond will leave you very experienced and a young age which is perfect to move on to the likes of Cathay / Emirates / Ethiad if that is what rings your bell. When you look at it objectively those who spend years in the GA scene probably spend the same amount of money on training, years in the wilderness etc.... If you think the scheme suits you go for it, it you object to it, don't. Lets not forget that ALL non-typerated recruits into Easyjet have to complete the TRSS (type rating sponsorship scheme) regardless of any previous experience.

[Sunstar320]

Love this bit..

Up to 70 pilots were expected to come through the first year of the program, to begin in July and increase in future years.
The airline anticipated about 20,000 applications.

:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[golow]

The ad-initio cost is $87105 plus GST of $8710 giving a cost of $95815.
ACP cost $84895 giving a total training cost of $180710 plus $500 application fees.
Now Jetstar pay $21000 of the ACP and you pay the rest of $63895. Over 6 years this is $10649 a year out of your wage.
A junior FO wage in 2010 is $55454, less repayment to Jetstar of $10649 giving a take home wage of $44805 a year less tax. In 2011 wage goes up to $57118 so you will take home $46469. This puts you below the poverty line to fly an A320(Darwin base), try and get a loan at the bank or a car loan.
No wonder Jetstar had 6 cent fares today, paid for by its pilots.

[Zoomy]

All I can think to say is " JET STAR " " GET STUFFED " :E

[Mstr Caution]

The airline anticipated about 20,000 applications.


And of the 20,000 applications:

55% will not have read & met the minimum requirements. (Aust or NZ citizen)
25% will not pass an online psychometric or skills test
15% will realise they can't afford it or won't leave their current job for it.
2% will fail the interview
2% won't pass the training

Net result 200 or so :8

[The Green Goblin]

Well 20,000 at $500 an interview is $10,000,000

Who said there was no money in aviation? :ugh:

[lemel]

Seeing this makes me sick. I actually feel like hurling!!!

I applied to jetstar so that when they asked me to go for an interview, I could tell them to stick it (which i did). The current pay is horrible and I won't fly for an airline like jetstar as a result.

This goes doubly for this cadet program. I would give up flying all together if this was my only option. Christ, the qf scheme is ****e because you have to pay for all of it, but atleast it's cheaper and you earn a higher salary once you are in then jet star.

I am currently in ga and would do it again with no hesitations. I would never prostitute myself with this cadet program jetstar is offering.

Wanabe pilots out there wake up!

[eocvictim]

there is NO future in GA if you want to actually own a house and make a living

I'm in GA and in the process of purchasing my first house and already planning subsequent investment properties on a single income.

[roger_ramjet]

As AH says it's been happening in Europe for years - it's here to stay I think.

After the turmoil of 2007 pilot recruiting boom all airlines will want to have a bit more control on the entry and exit of their workforce, and what better way to do it than with an extensive training/selection process at the start, and a six year bond to follow through.

There will always need to be a "direct" entry route since the lead time for cadets is so long, but I can see cadets making a decent percentage of annual pilot intake numbers.

The ACP isn't much more than the endorsement cost anyway - and would make it an easy career jump from GA Baron to A320, bypassing the regional airlines on the way...

[Hatchet Harry]

I spent over $100k on training, ratings, endorsements, renewals, travel etc etc in my 7 years of GA flying before leaving the industry to go back to my trade and earn a reasonable living. If I was starting out all over again I would jump at this.

Before you all flog me.... $100k on training plus 7 years earning at least $20 - $50k p/a less than friends qualified in other trades and professions cost me at least somewhere between:

$100k + (7x $20k) = $240k or $100k + (7x $50k) = $450k

Newbies will be far better off (over a 10+ year projection) to drop $180k from the outset via HECS and loans, earn a far better wage than GA, use Jetstar as a training ground for 5000hrs of jet time then p!ss off to a better job overseas.... That is if better jobs o/s exist in a few years?

Even those that stay at Jetstar will be earning far better wages than most Australians.

What really seems unfair and a kick in the teeth is that this program ruins the chances for all the hundreds of pilots out there flogging it hard in GA.

[Centaurus]

he upside for the cadet is a career path without having to p*ss around in GA, no matter what anyone says (having flown with many 200 hour jet pilots) these cadets will make fine airline pilots. Interesting times ahead, it is about time this part of the world caught up.

And these graduates will become automatic pilot monkeys for the rest of their career which is just what the jet transport manufacturers and airline managements want in the first place. Pure flying skills considered unnecessary.

[bogdantheturnipboy]

If you have worked in GA for a bit ( ie 1000-2000hrs) but are struggling to get the twin time and or night hrs to get an ATPL (and the prospect of going remote is not turning you on), I could see why someone would be interested in the advanced scheme. Why hang around in GA flying clapped out machines for another year or 2? It will be interested to hear what happens with these cadets.

Did anyone see this coming?

[ROH111]

I don't agree with cadet schemes. They are after all, schemes.

At least with the Qantas cadet scheme, the new pilot will sit in the back seat, operate sectors above transition level/altitude and be exposed to International Airline operations before taking the control's of the real deal.

I know REX have a cadet scheme, and they are placed directly into the right hand seat of an RPT operation on the SAAB. But somehow, a cadet straight away operating a jet, just doesn't sit with me.

What doesn't sit with me either is that Jetstar are training cadet pilots by an overseas company! They are giving away instructional hours to overseas pilots. They must be cheaper. It is disappointing to see, and I wish that both flying organisations chosen to training the pilot's were Australian companies.

It's a sign that they will outsource their own airline operation at the drop of a hat, if the price is right.

Watch out Jetstar Pilots. The future is Orange. The future is outsourced.

Quote:
" The training program with Melbourne-based Oxford Aviation Academy and CTC Aviation Group in Hamilton, New Zealand, was announced at Moorabbin Airport on Wednesday."

Rant Source: Telstra BigPond News and Weather (http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Business/2010/06/02/Jetstar_ramps_up_expansion_plans_469071.html)

[c173]

i'm gonna go ahead and say it

the aviation industry is now completely f^#cked in australia

if you ever want an airline job...this is the only way to get it now

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Damien1989]

Can someone please inform me what you're paying for bar the endorsement out of $84,895 AUD for the ACP. WTF??

[The_Pharoah]

The $84k is roughly equivalent to what the Grad Dip in Aviation costs at the Uni of South Australia. From memory, you still needed to 'tip in' approx $5k to complete your M/E rating - thats what I was told at the interview. The Grad Dip was supposed to train you from zero to CPL+ME/CIR in approx 12 months. Why this costs $87k and not $70k which is what you'd theoretically pay at a normal flying school is beyond me. As far as the fee help goes, the govt doesn't loan you the money for free. They add a whopping 20% (I believe) onto the total cost so $84k becomes $100k which is what you then repay once your income reaches a certain level (again around $48k or something which increases proportionately but capped at around 9% of gross salary). These numbers are from memory when I applied for the Grad Dip (which I got but declined to go private) so they could be wrong now.

There's got to be some 'fat' built into it somewhere. My accounting brain tells me it could be built into a/c hire rates, fuel charges, etc. Its a business after all.

[nt.pilot]

to be honest this makes the REX cadetship look cheap. If you want to be an airline pilot, how are you supposed to ever get a second officer job or junior F/O job without being a cadet... the REX cadetship only requires a 1/4 payment and the rest is paid back which would then mean they will definitely hire you because they want to make thier money back. if an airline expects you to fork out 154,000 and not even gaurantee a job then its not worth doing! who the hell can afford this anyway?!

The cathay pacific cadetship still seems like the best one out there...

[beaver_rotate]

Ahhhh Bruce Buchanan, the greasy used car salesman. I would take all of his 'quotes' to the same degree I would of his 'blanket incident' in F Class at QF on the B744 (that's having a flog under a blanket LAX-SYD). Shame on you... not exactly 'Chairman's Lounge' material now is he??

[Gas Bags]

Like it or not this is going to happen.....No different to many professions that have done similar things. Times change and people need to change with them. To accept change and see positives is hard to do but being bitter and twisted is even harder.

Sorry to put it so bluntly but these things can, do, and will happen whether we like them or not.

Hopefully the yougsters who take this offer up are not treated badly by existing members of the industry because they are merely taking up an opportunity that was not available previously.

Once again sorry for the rather blunt post however this is reality.

[eternity]

Does anyone have some idea of what this 'cadetship' "scheme" might mean for people flogging it out in GA or in regionals???

Will Jetstar still take on DFO for the next couple of years??

Or will it go the way of airlines such as Singapore which only has cadets moving through???

[eocvictim]

Is it just me or does it seem that the ACP will bring about the death of DEFO's?

Sorry, I'll rephrase.

Is it just me or is it clear that the ACP is directly aimed at killing off of DEFO's?

Why invest in your employees when you have them lining up to pay you for a work?


Changes like this only come about because companies take advantage of peoples (gen y in particular) sheer laziness. Its bloodsuckers who are willing to sacrifice conditions to circumvent any hard work that these schemes are aimed at. Its a fantastic way to run a company and will no doubt keep shareholders very happy but it takes two to tango. This wouldn't have happened if people weren’t willing to prostitute themselves.

The airlines are not all to blame though, not when you've got such poor conditions at the bottom end. The airlines are just capitalizing on what GA has done to itself by giving such a bad, dirty image right when you have one of the laziest, selfish and pushy generations coming through.

[student_downunder]

I could just be reading this wrong BUT...

On the cadet home page "$87,105 AUD plus GST plus ACP cost below" where ACP is roughly 85,000

On the Oxford cost and funding page " total unit fee for the APPFO course and Associate Degree of Aviation in Melbourne is AUD124,456" + "The unit fees for the APPFO course package comprising the A320 endorsement training in Hong Kong is AUD30,000 This is payable to OAA prior to the commencement of travel to Hong Kong." = $156,456

These are two different prices for the same course isn't it?

[dutch_oven]

With regards to the comparisons between cadet schemes eg. QF vs Jetstar, at face value it appears as though the jetstar cadetship is a lot more attractive! With jetstar, it'll be much quicker to the right hand seat of a jet, bypassing industry placement and years as a sh*t kicking SO that a QF cadet has to put up with. Qf cadets now have to complete a second selection process after placement before being accepted as a sh*t kicking SO, jetstar cadets complete one selection process. Then there's seniority. Qf cadets wait 2-4 years from graduation to get seniority while jetstar cadets get it straight up, therefore quicker jet commands.

Assuming Jetstar continue their rapid expansion, a jetstar cadet could reasonably expect to take a jet command 5-6 years from graduation (maybe quicker with max hours?). For a Qf cadet, they'll wait 2-4 years in placement, then 5-6 years as an SO before they even become an FO.

[100.above]

then again dutch_oven, after the a320 cadet captain finishes his bond and wishes to move to an airline that actually pays satisfactory wages, i.e. QF, by such time the jet * cadet will be the QF cadets SO.

Those "**** kicking" s/o's will most likely earn more than the J* captain by such time anyway!

[whaet]

what bases does jetstar have these days?

[GreenerGrass]

Just read the Jestar Pilots EBA.
Junior FO is defined as an FO who does not possess an ATPL.
Without the command hours to qualify for an ATPL the cadets are going to be Junior FO's for a long time.
They had better plan on a salary around $55K for a while.

[smiling monkey]

So I guess what Jetstar is really saying is that their previous minimums of 2000 TT and 500 multitime don't matter if you have $84000. That's how I see it.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

They'll have plenty of young wannabees to choose from. Its all part of a plan to drive pilot T & C's down and it will work. Young'uns cave to easy at EBA time and for the first 5 years they'll be stary eyed and probably still living at home. Tough times ahead, where will it end???????

On the other side of the coin J* must see significant need for more crew over the next 10 years or so or they would be going for ga guy's and gal's. I fear for the last ten years or so we've been moving the deck chairs on the Titanic only to find the bastard sinks anyway? Thats Aussie aviation for ya!
SN

[metrosmoker]

lemel - you telling J* to get stuffed in the interview really showed them. They are struggling for pilots and since you they have changed there recruitment and conditions to try and entice guys like you to the company. Considering you payed for the interview process.....

SunstarA320, as Tigers unofficial spokeperson on this site, your dig at other companies carry as much weight and influence anything that any airline CEO says.

As for the rest of you. Why is this any different to the Qantas cadetship?
As for killing DEFO`s, and cancelling the last course because of this, hardly.

These guys wont be up and running for 8months at least and that is if they are doing the 3 month course and start on the 1st of July. I believe J* will need plenty of pilots in the mean time.
DEFO`s, think back 18 months to when the industry was looking down the barrel of the worst pilot shortage in recent memory. The GFC was the only thing that gave airlines repreieve. Seeing as another shortage will hit in the near future (18-24months) all this scheme is, is an attempt to ensure they have a stream of emplloyable pilots.

These same sentiments were being aired when J* started, same when Tiger came in, "I will not work for them", "I refuse to pay for a job", "They wont last", "They wont get anyone, no one will sign up for this."
Well plenty have, plenty will and both airlines are doing O.K.

[chewi]

This is just Qantaslink all over.Why hire real pilots when you can get cadets with little experience, I wonder if jetstar will be advising passengers before boarding of the limited experience of the crew for their flight.:bored::bored:

[Cypher]

I wonder if jetstar will be advising passengers before boarding of the limited experience of the crew for their flight.

People don't give a rats @rse when they're paying $1 AUD to be there. And their logic is that the pilots are all trained to a minimum regulatory standard, which they are.

I believe DEFOs will ALWAYS be there. Going by the Easy/CTC experience, they still have DEFOs and have always since the start of their cadet scheme.
It would be unwise to take 100% of your workforce intake from cadets, for one, the training requirements to train all your new pilots as cadets would be beyond most airlines and two, it would result in a nasty hump where by a large proportion of your workforce would all have the same low experience at the same time with no experienced pilots to fall back on.

I can see G.A picking up their conditions, people there staying longer, then after a fairly long stint at a good G.A company (future tense) finally heading off to DEFO...



I just love it how there is a growing number of people out there that think that they'll go through the cadet scheme and get a easy command in 5-6 years. I can't think of any of the cadets I trained 5 years ago at Easyjet/CTC that have commands.

ICAO standards that most countries have adopted, state that 1500 hrs total time is required for the issue of an ATPL. And of those hours, Co-pilot time only counts as half. So to obtain your ATPL from scratch, you will require 3000 hrs co-pilot time, as you'll only have your bare minimum command time of 150-200 hrs. And incase you haven't done your research, you need an ATPL to command an aircraft heavier than 5700 kg. Most LCC work their crew about 850-900 hrs a year.. hitting the 1000 if your really unlucky....

Factor in DEFOs that will still be around, DE Captains, which Jetstar clearly state on their website, that they will take if no suitable internal candidates are around, I think time to command from cadet to capt would be somewhere in the region of 10 years. Which personally I don't think is a bad thing.

The real interesting statistics will be impact on the accident/incident rates and what type of accidents/incidents may occur due to a shift to a cadetship scheme...

[pilotb777300]

Hey guys,

I'm in need of some advice. I'm a 30 year old Aero engineer whos been working in the military aicraft design buisness both here and O/S for the last 6 years or so. I have a degree in Aero eng obviously and a private pilots license which I obtained a few years ago. I'm currently earning close to 80K a year here on oz and close to 120K if I go contracting in the US.
I'm contemplating going back into flying and have been looking for a way in for some time. I was planning to continue flying GA and slowly progress to CPL/ATPL part time while working in Eng. however I came across this J* scheme the other day and was wondering if anyone can tell me what typical wage an FO would be making after deductions of all loans that have been accumulated for training. I'm thinking there wont be much left in your pocket for those 6 years ? would it be comparable to my current engineering wage ?

Cheers

[Nacelle]

When will these cadets be issued a seniority number? Day one of training, or on completion of their endorsement?

[caneworm]

This job's starting to get like the priesthood,
"get 'em while they're young & dumb before they realise what great opportunities there are elsewhere".

[50cent]

I have been chasing the 1st jet job for a while, even jet*...

Now I have 4,000 hrs, mostly co pilot time on king air, some PIC time on light twin, without an ATPL....

So they would rather hire cadets, while in the main time, people like me with some expereinces are struggling to get a break...

What the :mad:?

[The_Pharoah]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here (someone's got to :}). As I put in my original post, whats the alternative to the cadetship? ie. what are the pros and cons of someone taking up the cadetship vs someone going the 'traditional route'? Over the next few days Pprune membership is going to skyrocket with newbies wanting to know about the cadetship and stuff and we really need to give them as much on the pros and cons rather than just the cons.

Pros
1. you'll most probably have a F/T job at the end of your course with an established ;
2. the initial outlay (up to $150k) will mostly be covered by FEE HELP and Jetstar;
3. you'll be bonded for 6 years but at the end of it could possibly be A320 type rated with (eg. 800 hrs x 5 years) 4,000 hrs TT, even with the possibility of command;
4. possibility of upgrade to A330;
5. Marketable
6. Seniority

Cons
1. Cost - $150k!
2. Low salary at start (approx $55k) which sets a standard for T&C's across the industry. This is excerbated by the FEE HELP and endo repmts and living in a capital city (Melb, Darwin, Syd, etc). Salary could be as follows:

Salary $55,000
HELP repmt (5%) (2,750)*
Net after HELP debt $52,250
tax (9,525)
Net annual $42,725
less: Jetstar endo repmt (3,500)**
Net annual cash in hand $39,225
Mthly $3,269!

* from the fee help website
** 50% = $21k per the cadet website. Over 6 years = $3,500 or $292 mthly.

The above is not perfect, just an approximation and I've assumed the $55k is pure salary and doesn't include super.

3. Possibility that FO's won't be able to get a command due to not meeting command hours as required by the ATPL.

What else?

[nt.pilot]

Yeh it is very sad.... cadetships are good in a way but are a bit unfair to those who 'go bush' I only have my GFPT and dont know where to go from here... a cadetship or instructing? i know that i cant afford $154,000 and a bank isn't going to give a personal loan like that ! its really unfair how the rich kids get this and get a fast track to the top while the rest are trying so hard...

[The Green Goblin]

Actually NT pilot you don't need to be rich, just poor for 6 years until your debt is paid off.

Jetstar and FEE help cover all the expenses and you just have to work until it's paid off.

If you have rich parents and live at home it could be quite a cushy existence.

Personally I would rather go the GA route and hope it all pays off in the end. I feel sorry for cadets who have never got to feel the thrill of 1000 flys in a cabin while you are doing an instrument approach due to smoke/dust with a load of black fellas behind you keeping you honest.

Good times good times.....

At the end of the day these schemes are only there because the Airlines know that the pool of Pilots are drying up. With competition from overseas and the cost of self funding your training becoming unfordable expect to see more of this in the future.

[Icarus2001]

And in case you haven't done your research, you need an ATPL to command an aircraft heavier than 5700 kg. You may need to do your research if we are talking about Australian jurisdiction.

[nt.pilot]

Jetstar and FEE help cover all the expenses and you just have to work until it's paid off.


where does it say that?? i thought you had to have an initial outlay of $22,000 and then a repayment every 3 months ..... does jetstar cover the $154,000 cost?

The TOTAL cost of our Jetstar APP FIRST OFFICERTM course is AUD154,456 including the fees for the SUT Associate Degree education which unlocks Government FEE-HELP. Jetstar will sponsor AUD 21,000 towards the cost of your A320 type rating. In addition to this Jetstar will fund (up front) the remaining costs of the ACP program - this will be repaid to Jetstar by cadets over a period of 6 years whilst you are employed as a pilot operating for Jetstar. Note: you will be bonded for a period of 6 years

They cover the Advanced Cadet Program not the ab initio one...

[stealthone]

It might be a good thing afterall. GA needs to be stirred up a little bit. Those going through GA would end up having their airline aspirations greatly reduced and may realise that flying for free is not the way. GA industry would be forced to invest and improve the terms and conditions in order to attract and retain pilots.

[Biff Wellington]

Have to say that hearing of the various cadetships that are coming up of late feels like a real slap in the face for those of us who have been slogging away in GA for the last few years. Personally I can't apply for anything at the moment - 2000h+ total and meet all the other standard airline application prerequisites but only 400 multi so my applications won't even be considered yet. Too qualified for cadetship, not enough for direct entry. I'm left wondering whether all the hard work and sacrifice has been worth it as cashed-up zero-timers go straight to the front of the queue.

[The_Pharoah]

The way I understand it is, the total course fee of $154k is comprised of:

Ab initio 87,105
GST 8,711
Total = 95,816
Add Fee help 20% fee - 17,000
Total Course fees = $112,000
Add: Jetstar endo - $42,000
Total = $154,000

Paid for by:
Fee help (course fees) - $85k
Fee Help - 20% fee - $17k
Jetstar end paid by them - $42k
Balance?? paid by cadet? $10k
Total = $154,000

This is where we need some sort of break up ie. who covers the $10,816? I know the $85k + $17k ($102k total) is deducted from your salary (ref to my prev post) by the govt and half ($21k) of the jetstar endo is deducted from your pay over 6 years. I'm probably missing something somewhere.

*edit* had to redo the numbers because of formatting.

[rowage]

It is clear from these pathetic reactions that many of you do not fly because you love flying. Frankly, who in their right mind would think: "Hmmmmm, I want to make heaps of money. I know! I'm gonna be an airline pilot!". People, real pilots fly because they love it, and whatever they may earn from it is a bonus. Stop whining and be happy that some kid who has dreamed of flying longer than he cares to remember may get the opportunity because of this programme.

[nt.pilot]

The site says a FEE-HELP of up to $85,000... which is the life time limit. so if you went to uni like i did and have a debt of $22,000 already that cuts it down to 63,000 :(

anyway .. is anyone here going to apply?

[Fonz121]

It is clear from these pathetic reactions that many of you do not fly because you love flying. Frankly, who in their right mind would think: "Hmmmmm, I want to make heaps of money. I know! I'm gonna be an airline pilot!". People, real pilots fly because they love it, and whatever they may earn from it is a bonus. Stop whining and be happy that some kid who has dreamed of flying longer than he cares to remember may get the opportunity because of this programme.

a Kiwi?! It couldn't be.

Mate you seriously think someone is going to fly professionally for 40 or so years for the fun of it?

"Sorry guys, I won't be able to join you on that holiday as I live below the poverty line. I get to fly a plane though!" :ugh:

[Cypher]

It is clear from these pathetic reactions that many of you do not fly because you love flying. Frankly, who in their right mind would think: "Hmmmmm, I want to make heaps of money. I know! I'm gonna be an airline pilot!". People, real pilots fly because they love it, and whatever they may earn from it is a bonus. Stop whining and be happy that some kid who has dreamed of flying longer than he cares to remember may get the opportunity because of this programme.

Last I heard nobody was whining.

!". People, real pilots fly because they love it, and whatever they may earn from it is a bonus.

NO, Private pilots fly because they love it. Professionals (which one would hope you would be when becoming an airline pilot) fly because they love it and they are REWARDED commensurately for the time, effort and dedication they put into their profession. How many doctors just do it because they "love it"....?

Stop whining and be happy that some kid who has dreamed of flying longer than he cares to remember may get the opportunity because of this programme.

If that "kid" has the cash to contemplate the Jetstar cadetship program, then that "kid" already has the opportunity to become a pilot WITHOUT this program.

[bogdantheturnipboy]

50cent, there is no reason why in theory that you couldn't apply - it doesn't mention anywhere about pilots with too much experience.

[The Green Goblin]

It is clear from these pathetic reactions that many of you do not fly because you love flying. Frankly, who in their right mind would think: "Hmmmmm, I want to make heaps of money. I know! I'm gonna be an airline pilot!". People, real pilots fly because they love it, and whatever they may earn from it is a bonus. Stop whining and be happy that some kid who has dreamed of flying longer than he cares to remember may get the opportunity because of this programme.

Obviously a windup, pretty funny though :ok:

Anyone done the sums on a Jetstar NZ FO, they would just about be flying for free wouldn't they???

[JAYTO]

I have been chasing the 1st jet job for a while, even jet*...


Now I have 4,000 hrs, mostly co pilot time on king air, some PIC time on light twin, without an ATPL....


50cent, I would suggest that your level of experience would be on par with said "cadets"

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
I have been chasing the 1st jet job for a while, even jet*...

Quote:
Now I have 4,000 hrs, mostly co pilot time on king air, some PIC time on light twin, without an ATPL....

50cent, I would suggest that your level of experience would be on par with said "cadets"

Agreed. If you want to get a jet job, go get some command time. Even though it's not required it's a tick in the box.

The only ones who get in without it are the ladies or people with diverse ethnic backgrounds so as to keep the discrimination thing at bay.

[stealthone]

It appears that the cadetship upfront costs are small and it would hopefully attract a great number of young and bright people into this flawed industry. Cadetship scheme is the right way to go. The airlines would end up with the best and sharpest lads flying their planes. I wish that there were opportunities like this many years ago. In the old days a lot of inept people failed their ATPL exams so many times and worked for free in GA just to get the hours and climb into the shiny jet. It was a flawed system and I hope that the end is near. Thank God I saw the rot and jumped into the jet without spending a single day in GA. A friend of mine worked for many years like a slave for pittance chasing the hours while his skydiving bosses were making hundreds of thousands every year.
There are two choices for those who fail to enter cadetship scheme: the first one is to preserve cash and do something else investing into proper career and fly for fun as private pilots; the other is to spend 100k plus and spend the life making f..k all and making other people reach. A few per cent of those going down this route may end up one day in the shiny jet. Good luck.
Please guys stop whining and moaning cause nobody forced you fly for free in GA just to find out that you got no future now. Look at a greater picture as this would undermine GA to the core just to result in a total overhaul of ethics and morals and may even signal the end of slavery. In the not to distant future pilots with average skills destined for GA would fight for and uphold their terms and conditions because I do not think a sane person would continue working entire life making a lousy 50k while brick layers make 200k a year.
Say no to slavery, support the cadetship schemes!!!
P.S A great deal of people going through GA got their training costs paid for by rich parents who also continued to provide support through the slavery ordeal i.e. destroying the industry.

[nt.pilot]

people who go the GA way will always have an advantage over cadets! they will have experience landing under extreme pressure in all kinds of conditions, having engine problems on thier own etc... the experience you would get out of GA is invaluable. A cadet will encounter these things but will always have someone beside them to help them out.

As for instructors - they learn how to save a landing from disaster, how to recover out of spins, tailwheel endorsements etc... This is something that cadets would not get unless they went out of their way to learn these things.

I would happily be a cadet but would get an aerobatic rating, I have a tailwheel endorsement and then I would actually want to work out in the bush for some time....

[Gas Bags]

Cypher,

It is a little egotistical comparing yourself to a doctor isnt it??? Back down to earth please! A smart uniform does not put someone on the same tier as a medical professional.

GB

[The Green Goblin]

people who go the GA way will always have an advantage over cadets! they will have experience landing under extreme pressure in all kinds of conditions, having engine problems on thier own etc... the experience you would get out of GA is invaluable. A cadet will encounter these things but will always have someone beside them to help them out.

As for instructors - they learn how to save a landing from disaster, how to recover out of spins, tailwheel endorsements etc... This is something that cadets would not get unless they went out of their way to learn these things.

I would happily be a cadet but would get an aerobatic rating, I have a tailwheel endorsement and then I would actually want to work out in the bush for some time....

Says someone with a GFPT :ugh:

Flying an Airliner and a bugsmasher are two different beasts that require two different skill sets. You can have all the landings in the world in a PA31 or a 210 flying into booraloola with no approach guidance doing a visual circuit. It's not going to help you land an Airbus or a Boeing.

[nt.pilot]

Yeh because an airbus or boeing will do all the work for you! I am not saying this from my own experience i am saying this from ppl i know in GA. If you learn the hard way you learn a lot more, not just flying skills but life skills. If there is a crazy crosswind do you really think that the captain is going to say ' why dont you give it a try this time?' with 100 passengers on board?

[hotnhigh]

Lets not turn it back into another cadet vs direct entry debate again. The topic is the merit of the jetstar scheme. Importantly, people have to research other schemes run by ctc and airlines around the world to determine their relative merit. A quick look through the forums on pprune would reveal some issues that need to be answered if one is contemplating such a course.
Personally, is the course warranted in australia.....absolutely not. But their train set and the rest.
Prospective applicants proceed with extreme caution and diligence. Jetstar are not doing this because of a pilot shortage.

[holdmetight]

people who go the GA way will always have an advantage over cadets!

I do not think you can compare a cadet with a GA guy, nor can you say the latter has an advantage over the other.

Sure, GA guys accrue more invaluable command time over the course of their time in the bush, but that is not to say that cadets are any less capable because they didn't build hours in GA. Getting into and getting through a cadetship is much, much more than just handing over a wad of cash.

A cadetship is an accelerated process into a job that most others would spend years working towards. In other words, and with all due respect to GA drivers, cadetships will only take the brightest people who have the aptitude to learn quickly. These cadets will learn and absorb experience over a lot less time than their GA counterparts did, and at the end will come out just as competent at their jobs. When a cadet graduates and becomes an F/O, he or she can be expected to display the same level of performance that his or her Direct Entry colleague can. If both cadets and DE pilots can pass their checks, we really cannot say which is better.

I don't think you can doubt the ability of cadetships to put competent pilots into aircraft - just look all over the world. Lots of major airlines have cadetships (albeit for their own nationals), and so far it has been working well. Though I do agree this is a race to the bottom when it comes to T&Cs... unfortunately this is the general direction the aviation industry is heading, and individuals who choose the cadetship over traditional routes really should not be blamed.

Okay, let the flaming begin...

[Gribble150]

Im a 28 year old plant mechanic with half a mech-eng degree. Currently I earn about 70k working most saturdays and two nights a week. Im not married, have no kids, no house or any other worldly posessions, I have a ute, motorcycle and a girlfreind who 50% of time is annoying, hard to reason with and has about as much soul as a Klansmans i-Pod.

I currently have all of 25 hours racked up in total in a c150, 6 of which are command (re; command flying circuits anyway)

Tell my why I SHOULDNT go for this opportunity? Its only 6 years, ive spent 10 in an industry that bends you over the barrell for your labour time so could the airline industry be any worse? At least I get a nice uniform that wont get covered in road grime and grease. Oh and the pilots hat as well, AND a shiny black breifcase!

On a serious note though, I do like to fly. I have an affinity for human-mechanical interaction with machines (take that out of context, I dare you). So a career change like this does appeal to me.

Thanks for listening!

[OhSpareMe]

You should go for it. But bear in mind that Jetstar crews don't wear caps. If you want a cap then apply for the QANTAS scheme.

[The Green Goblin]

Yeh because an airbus or boeing will do all the work for you! I am not saying this from my own experience i am saying this from ppl i know in GA. If you learn the hard way you learn a lot more, not just flying skills but life skills. If there is a crazy crosswind do you really think that the captain is going to say ' why dont you give it a try this time?' with 100 passengers on board?

The systems need more automation to reduce the workload. Imagine having to flight plan, work out burns at levels, hand fly and calculate profiles range etc while flying?

Airline flying is different and you can't compare it to flying GA period.

The cadet passes the same check as the direct entry guy and in the crazy crosswind provided it is within the limits of the aeroplane and it is the FOs leg he will be expected to land the aeroplane. If he can't he will not pass his checks or his check to line.

GA was the traditional career path but GA flying is reducing, aeroplanes are ageing with no viable replacements and Pilot training is reducing. With shortages of AVGAS on the horizon and manufactures support for older models becoming strained without large investments in old airframes a cadet program is really the only viable solution to the future of our industry.

It's the way it is rolled out that is the main thing.

Oh and the pilots hat as well

No hats at Jetstar mate :cool:

[h.o.t.a.s.]

Gribble.

Its a great opportunity.

Just be aware that you may well end up as a 'Junior FO' for a length of time on vastly reduced pay (from that of an ATPL qualified FO) whilst paying back what you owe them. You WILL be living wherever Jetstar decides to send you. If that means living in a major capital city on said minimal income, then thats what will happen (that girlfriend may be of use to you yet!).

Better yet, how about that meaning Darwin, with rent and cost of living there beginning to eclipse most major capitals...

....or perhaps, consider being sent to Singapore to crew shiny new A330's from the back seat as a Cruise FO!! The shine will eventually wear off from more than just the gold and silver bits on your uniform.

Just weigh it all up, fella.

Regards.

[j3pipercub]

Legendary, just legendary!

Let's play spot the cadet/GA guy...

[Jackliveshere]

nt.pilot

Looking at the goingtouni website about the FEE-HELP system, section 2.7 of this (http://www.goingtouni.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/04B42514-4255-47B3-ADC8-74EF568873AA/0/FEEHELP2010PDF.pdf) document states that any debt incurred prior to the 1st of January 2005 does not count to the upper limit of the FEE-HELP. That is, if you have incured university help/hecs/whatever debts since 01/01/05, then the maximum you can borrow will be $85,062-that debt.

[Ted Nugent]

I went through GA and I still have no idea how the Airbus works! :}

But seriously, a little bit of life experience and maturity goes a long way!

[Muff Hunter]

Will the cadets ever get an ATPL??

If not, they will be stuck on the reduced rate for years? < $55k.

Further, the NZ FO's after paying back their training will be on < $30k

The only winner here is QANTAS MANAGEMENT!!!!!!

Further evidence that the only reason J* makes a profit is because it comes out of the workers pockets!! Looks like a bigger bonus for the scum that run these airlines :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Aviator330]

What a Beauty :ugh::ugh:
Oh No should I be :confused::confused:

Happy:D:D

:suspect::suspect::suspect:
:=:=

The days are numbered:{:cool:

Will Rise again:ouch::ouch:

[nt.pilot]

well anyway... i am not trying to say one is better than the other but from what i have seen and heard if i was a cadet sitting alongside a captain who came up through GA then i would have felt like i cheated... but thats me! just my personal opinion....

Anyway that said, I think I am going to apply for this. Might as well make the most of the governments generousity. And a rate of 4% pa is how you pay it back so its not a dramatic chunk... i currently pay back 4% of my uni loan and it is hardly noticeable..I think I will save up a bit more before I do apply though because you still need to live. ie. petrol, clothes etc....

[mmmbop]

but from what i have seen and heard if i was a cadet sitting alongside a captain who came up through GA then i would have felt like i cheated...

Yeah me too, I would have hated being the cadet earning $120K+/year for those 10 years the Captain spent in GA gaining all that invaluable experience.

Oh hang on, that's the Qantas/Cathay etc Cadet, not the no-hat-wearing J* cadet.

M

[Matt J]

So can someone explain how much the Advanced program is and how it is funded? ie amount up front for cadet, amount paid for by Jetstar and amount paid for out of future salary.

[patienceboy]

This is not about GA vs Cadet. It is about hiring a fresh CPL over someone with years and thousands of hours experience. Jetstar recruits don't just come from GA. Many (most?) come from airlines with significant jet and/or turbine time. I could understand a scheme to supplement direct entry during times of high demand, but to hire a cadet before interviewing an experienced applicant wouldn't make any sense other than financial (and maybe they won't).

Those who don't fly the line just don't realise the value of a good experienced First Officer. They're excellent value when they prevent an incident or accident - which does happen. Did they ask the line pilots thoughts?

A cadetship is an accelerated process into a job that most others would spend years working towards. In other words, and with all due respect to GA drivers, cadetships will only take the brightest people who have the aptitude to learn quickly.

Umm, I think you just skip the experience bit, which naturally accelerates the process a little.

[MrSheffield]

people who go the GA way will always have an advantage over cadets! they will have experience landing under extreme pressure in all kinds of conditions, having engine problems on thier own etc...

nt.pilot you are a jealous idiot...what you just wrote is complete and utter crap and has confirmed the fact that you are only 21 and still in GA. I can tell you although I thoroughly enjoyed my time in GA, hardly any of it has been applicable to my current job as an airbus pilot. I'm sure I would be a much better jet pilot if I had spent my first few years on the jet rather than cessnas. Face it, GA flying was dead easy, the only thing hard about it was the getting a job and the lousy conditions. I could fly up north with my eyes closed, flying jets at least triple the difficulty.

Go for it kids, leave GA to those who can't get into the airlines. And don't listen to guys rant about lowering conditions. THey had their opportunity to join full service airlines but failed.

[sumtingwong]

It is a little egotistical comparing yourself to a doctor isnt it??? Back down to earth please! A smart uniform does not put someone on the same tier as a medical professional.

GB

Therein lies a large problem. Medical professionals include doctors and allied health. Physio's Chiro's, Podiatrists etc.

For some reason I've never worked out, we as professional pilots, eat our young. We have NO PEER SUPPORT WHATSOEVER. That GB is the only difference in our professions.

Podiatrist gets it horribly wrong badly, man has sore feet and some blisters or a manky toenail.

Pilots get it horribly wrong. then what?

Whatever happened as a society to payment commensurate with responsibility:ugh:

I reckon im off back to uni. This industry is f%^ked

[j3pipercub]

Awesome windup Sheffield...

Flying jets three times as hard as GA eh? I guess it depends on what sort of GA...

j3

[nt.pilot]

well im not really a jealous idiot because i am not in GA I am still a student pilot and have never worked a day in the aviation industry. like i said before this is MY opinion based on what I have heard not my experience. I have been working my butt off for 3 years whilst studying at uni, now trying to save to pay for my training and cadetships like this are really good because I wont have to rough it up north and can just go straight into an airline. So what I am saying is that by doing this I feel like I have gone the 'not so rough' way and maybe those who roughed it might see this as unfair, and I understand why they would think that.

[The Green Goblin]

Awesome windup Sheffield...

Flying jets three times as hard as GA eh? I guess it depends on what sort of GA...

j3

Normally I agree with most things you say J3 but he does have a point. Whilst manipulating an Airbus on Autopilot is not exactly rocket science it will take a fair few years to actually understand what mode you are in and what works best for the current situation. Guy's I know who have flown the bus for sometime still say it surprises them.

Where as a GA pilot you can have a vague idea about what regs are applicable and look them up if required, as an Airline Pilot you need to know it period.

I love GA, I love piston aeroplanes but after slogging it out in the bush for six years I wonder if these programs do have merit. If you want to be an airline Pilot why not learn to be one straight away instead of learning a skill that is irrelevant to your end goal?

The Jetstar cadet scheme sucks IMO BUT I think that if such a scheme was implemented and done right, it could be a winner (Cathay etc)

I still would rather be sitting in that left seat one day reflecting on 210s barons 404s metros etc and be able to appreciate what I have. Not everyone feels the same however.

[sumtingwong]

nt.pilot you are a jealous idiot...what you just wrote is complete and utter crap and has confirmed the fact that you are only 21 and still in GA.

Only 21 and STILL in G.A?

He could be any age, you'll just be old AND a still complete w^nker:ugh:

[j3pipercub]

Normally I agree with most things you say J3 but he does have a point. Whilst manipulating an Airbus on Autopilot is not exactly rocket science it will take a fair few years to actually understand what mode you are in and what works best for the current situation. Guy's I know who have flown the bus for sometime still say it surprises them.

Perhaps, and several very experienced crew have met their end not realising what mode the autopilot was in... however...

I challenge J* VB Aircrew to show how their job is harder than the RFDS... That's what I was referring to. Sliding down ILS's/RNAV's is a cinch compared to dropping into 1000m of dirt, dimly lit by portable power, off a blackhole approach at 3am, by yourself.

Where as a GA pilot you can have a vague idea about what regs are applicable and look them up if required, as an Airline Pilot you need to know it period.

That doesn't work for me at the moment, I would get my ar5e royally kicked, yet I'm still a GA 'failure' (Not your words GG, paraphrased from around PPRuNe).

I think it comes down to idealogies. Perhaps cadetships will be the way of the future, with a wax figure of a GA pilot in the museums 50 years from now. However, I do not think an airline charging for the cadetship is the right direction.

j3

[404 Titan]

holdmetight

You are making the assumption a DEFO or DESO doesn’t go through a thorough airline selection process which is commensurate with their experience. Both selection processes have their flaws which are easily measured in failure rates during initial and ongoing training/checking.

With the exception of the QF cadet scheme, cadetships in this part of the world are a very new thing. Up until the mid 2000’s almost all pilots employed by the airlines in Australia came through GA, military of from other airlines. Cadetships never have and never will have a monopoly on people that are quick learners. This industry is full of them from all walks of life.

MrSheffield
Go for it kids, leave GA to those who can't get into the airlines. And don't listen to guys rant about lowering conditions. THey had their opportunity to join full service airlines but failed.
That's a pretty rich comment from someone that paid for their endorsement to get into Tiger.

[Wally Mk2]

..........as has been said before, aviation these days as far as a career path goes is a very different beast.
Is it a good thing that you can go from street to a "bus" in one step? I don't know maybe maybe not but only time will tell I guess.
For those of us that have done it the hard way via GA (with all the hard luck stories along the way) will have one thing over the newbies who will inherit the Earth & that's experience, experience gained from hard knocks with many a tale to tell the grand kiddies whilst sitting on that veranda in that rocking chair with a smirk y quiet smile on our faces knowing that WE (all older pilots) paved the way for what will ultimately be the future, flying, just another way to earn a buck with no romance or heart & soul feeling earned & no stories to tell...............how sad:sad:!

Still if I where young again then I guess I would be right in there also doing it the 'new' way as I would know no different. I wish the newbies/cadets all the best as when you think about it guys/gals they will be flying us around as we pax it well after retirement:ok:

Wmk2

[Cypher]

Cypher,

It is a little egotistical comparing yourself to a doctor isnt it??? Back down to earth please! A smart uniform does not put someone on the same tier as a medical professional.

GB

As a Doctor once said to me over a beer.. the only difference is that in medicine, we kill em one at a time..... :E

Good attempt at a windup though....

[Cirronimbus]

Is there a difference between a cadet who joins the RAAF (say) and learns to fly from scratch and ends up flying shiny jets and one who joins a civilian cadet scheme and learns to fly from scratch and ends up flying different shiny jets?

They start out learning "straight and level" in piddling single piston engine two seaters, move onto something more advanced, get experience with more sophisticated instruments, procedures and aircraft and eventually end up flying their respective shiny jets. They are both qualified and capable. Neither have necessarily done any GA flying by the time they graduate.

Does that mean they aren't as good a pilot as someone who has gone the GA route?

Does it matter so much who pays for the training or how much it costs?

If someone thinks that paying for a cadetship is better value than the traditional GA route is better value; so what?

[eocvictim]

Where as a GA pilot you can have a vague idea about what regs are applicable and look them up if required, as an Airline Pilot you need to know it period.

aahhhI dont think so, As a friend in the RFDS says "If you're going to knowingly "break" or bend the rules, you better damn well know them!"

THey had their opportunity to join full service airlines but failed.

That doesn't sound correct. Most career GA guys I know dont have ATPLs because they dont want to fly jets. In fact I know more and more guys leaving jets to flyâ.

Are you sure that you're credible? I had assumed everything posted on the interwebs was factual and credible.

"Fly" and "Flying" as an action are registered trademarks of General Aviation.

[404 Titan]

Cirronimbus

The real issue here for most isn’t who pays for cadet schemes or who the better pilot is. I’ve flown with enough of both to know they are both good given the right training. The real issue here appears to be the fact that Jetstar have only created this cadet scheme to drive CoS even lower.

[White and Fluffy]

How long until they offer "hour" packages. Some European airlines offer 300 and 500 hr packages of line flying. You pay to fly their aircraft.

ie:
Eagle Jet International, Inc. (http://www.eaglejet.net/JAAB737.asp)
Eagle Jet International, Inc. (http://www.eaglejet.net/HeavyJetPrograms.asp)

The race to the bottom continues.

[eocvictim]

ie:
Eagle Jet International, Inc. (http://www.eaglejet.net/JAAB737.asp)
Eagle Jet International, Inc. (http://www.eaglejet.net/HeavyJetPrograms.asp)

The race to the bottom continues.

:yuk:

Anyone other than a shareholder defend the above.

[The_Pharoah]

so I'm assuming there's a major barrier in trying to move within companies within the Qantas group right? Different EBA's and all that - didn't they come to an agreement a few months back which relaxed this in some way? (I'm trying to look at the positives here - I think there's more than enough negativity floating around)

[Tee Emm]

cadetships will only take the brightest people who have the aptitude to learn quickly. These cadets will learn and absorb experience over a lot less time than their GA counterparts did, and at the end will come out just as competent at their jobs.

Of course one has to be politically correct in such sensitive discussions:ok: But there are some northern Asia cadets that are anything but competent at the job. Culture plays a large part in determining pilot competency and I don't mean just the ability to do a smooth landing on autopilot and two hands on the wheel..

[holdmetight]

I'm quite sure that DESO and DEFO guys undergo stringent selection procedures as well, and are too removed from duty if they fail to perform. I also agree that both recruitment schemes have their respective benefits and flaws.

I was trying to suggest that the profile for a cadet pilot and a Direct Entry pilot are totally different, but that does not necessarily mean that one had an advantage over the other, which is what was suggested by another member of this forum. Successful cadets will have done in 100 weeks, what GA drivers will have taken twice that long to do... but in the end they are both just as capable of doing the same job. Again, I say this with all due respect to GA pilots.

Good luck to everyone applying for this program.

[holdmetight]

Culture plays a large part in determining pilot competency and I don't mean just the ability to do a smooth landing on autopilot and two hands on the wheel..

No doubt about that. But then again, in such companies, the entire pilot body would be judged according to that "culture", and the discrepancy in abilities between DE and cadet entry pilots would not exist because everyone is looked at in the same way. Which is in terms of ability to do other things aside from pressing the autopilot...

So in the terms of those Asian airlines, you could blame the company culture for poor competency, and not the lack of hours in the logbook of a new cadet-entry F/O.

[Jerr]

Jetstar are already planning routes into Europe via Singapore. I suspect that some of the cadets will end up as CFO - Cruise First Officers aka QF Second Officers, but on a lot less pay.

Interesting times ahead

JERR

[GADRIVR]

Funny isn't it......... sounds just like a Qantas program... but cheaper overall!!
Am I detecting a trend here??
Yet another example of 1989 residuals biting the pilot body on it's collective arse!
So is the Jetstar pilot committee going to have a whine about this?
Probably not.
Are the Qantas boys and girls gonna say something? Nah... too busy shoring up what they've got and what they'll get over the next few years before the gravy train comes to a grinding halt!
Great industry:E:=

[Kral]

Ok so we all know that as an industry aviation isn't the best at looking after its front line, but seriously this is getting beyond a joke. I am always amazed at baby boomers getting out the old "lets blame genY" joke of an argument. lets see how that holds up with your armchair economics guys. Seriously get your hand off it.

I have a bachelors degree in business and a masters degree in IT, I PAID for all of my studies. I PAID for all of my IT courses. I have seen no loyalty from my employers, and while I left work at 7pm this evening after 12hrs to pick up an aviation text book I get rewarded for my quals and hard work. yes thats right baby boomers HARD WORK. On top of that I get respect in my current industry.

These cadet courses might be the future of aviation, they are expensive in an expensive industry but the key to making aviation a long term prospect is TO SUPPORT YOUR COLLEAGUES! I sure as :mad: have never had that level of disrespect in IT. There are multiple pathways into most industries and this is another pathway that the industry is creating to enhance the mix. If it doesn't work it will eventually get scrapped (along with a lot of good money from people who can't afford it) However there is no need to act like a pack of hungry wolves. I fly because I want something different, and if I end up RHS of a jet and I look like getting screwed over right proper I will go straight back to an industry that treats me with respect.

YOU do this to yourselves.

The bottom end of all industries are not fun, but that doesn't mean treating cadets with a complete lack of respect, contempt and disdain. Grow up.

[404 Titan]

holdmetight
Successful cadets will have done in 100 weeks, what GA drivers will have taken twice that long to do...
You are making the assumption that all GA pilots do their training part-time. This is a false assumption. A fulltime course can be done comfortably in the same time as any cadet course and many do it this way. Infact many do their training at the same schools that run cadet courses.

[Tankengine]

404, I see holdmetight's idea as being that after 100 weeks they may see a job at jetstar, do you know anybody who has got into a Jet from nix in 100 weeks?:confused:
I spent 7 years in GA, the least time I know of personally is about 4 years.:(

[holdmetight]

You are making the assumption that all GA pilots do their training part-time. This is a false assumption.

Thanks for the heads-up, I see where you're coming from. My current flying instructor did his training full-time as well, so I don't doubt what you have said.

The main point I've been saying is that a cadet who took 100 weeks to get from their TIF to the RHS of an A320 would be equally competent as a Direct Entry guy who flew in GA for 7 years, then went into the RHS. As you would expect, even though they are both equally competent at their job as an F/O, the profile of a cadet and a GA veteran would be vastly different.

[404 Titan]

Tankengine

Not in Australia but in Europe and the US I’ve seen it. Mind you the US has just changed the law after the Colgan Airline Buffalo accident to now requiring 800 hours command before slipping into the right hand seat of a regional. The regulators wanted 1500 hours but lobbying from the airlines resulted in it being watered down.

[shortshortz]

Jerr
There isn't a CFO position in the current EBA. There is the Junior FO role and maybe they could be displaced into J* NZ as an FO :rolleyes:

[MrSheffield]

Only 21 and STILL in G.A?

He could be any age, you'll just be old AND a still complete w^nker

sumtingwong - he displays his age as 21 under his username. w^nker

[Gas Bags]

Cypher,

No windup intended....It is fact.....If you screw up so badly in the RHS the Captain should take over. If the Captain does not do that then both pilots have screwed up royally. That theoretically should never happen in RPT. Training and in particular repetitive action dictates so. The QRH determines what to do in most if not all circumstances and if not followed verbatim that then leaves the pilots in for tea and bickies. Follow the training and the manuals and you would be a very unlucky RPT pilot to experience anything close to a fatality, which does not compare to a medical professional who holds life and death in their hands every day, if not every hour of every shift. Do not make the profession out to be something it is not.


Sumtingwrong,

Again the training that goes on does not allow things to go wrong unless the pilot does something he is trained not to do (And this should never happen in RPT). Light comes on, open book, follow instructions. Not rocket science. When everything goes pair shaped that is when the money is earned, and as far as fatalities go that is very rare. For example with the right training my mum could listen and obey a TCAS warning (provided she had the prerequrisite flying skills) and she would avoid what could be called a potential disaster)....This is what training and procedures are all about.

The doctor that receives an unconcious patient in the emergency ward has no such QRH to follow.....He has to determine what is wrong and how to deal with it in order to save a life. This happens day in and day out for a lot of medical professionals.

How many times in a professional RPT pilots career would they honestly say to themselves that the situation they found themselves in and the actions they took outside of their repetitive training was what saved hundreds of lives.

Again....Back down to earth fellas......This is why the profession is regulated the way it is and the oversight is the way it is, and this is why tens of thousands of aircraft take to the skies every day with very few RPT fatalities......

In the event of a mechanical failure then I agree the flying skill and experience come into play big time, however this is more than extremely rare and to insinuate that this kind of skill is required for RPT pilots is what the real wind up is.

[sumtingwong]

"Again the training that goes on does not allow things to go wrong unless the pilot does something he is trained not to do (And this should never happen in RPT). Light comes on, open book, follow instructions. Not rocket science. When everything goes pair shaped that is when the money is earned, and as far as fatalities go that is very rare. For example with the right training my mum could listen and obey a TCAS warning (provided she had the prerequrisite flying skills) and she would avoid what could be called a potential disaster)....This is what training and procedures are all about.

The doctor that receives an unconcious patient in the emergency ward has no such QRH to follow.....He has to determine what is wrong and how to deal with it in order to save a life. This happens day in and day out for a lot of medical professionals."

Bollox you muppet.

....Jeez. Why waste my time, but after 5 years in Aeromedical, and married to a doctor; Doctors most absolutely have a QRH or protocols to follow. Same ****e different name. If and IF it goes pear shaped, they have PEER SUPPORT or at least a decent union who will look after them. Heard of the AMA, MDA? Who outside of aviation has heard of AIPA. (even most GA pilots would no know who AFAP is...and really, who can blame them)

Just quietly and no judgements here but to prove a point. How many doctors went after Jay ant Patel of Rockhampton hospital infamy (allegedly) ? How many pilots went after Dom James (of Norfolk alleged infamy)? I'm not defending or advocating the actions of either, merely pointing out the disparity. Why do we eat our own? Oh, and Patel's alleged negligence was some years ago now. Norfolk was what....9 months?

[Gas Bags]

Sumtingwong....I think you have msttepoynt!!!!

[drop bear ten]

Suffice to say that there is one thing that nobody can buy:

EXPERIENCE

And at times that is the thing that makes the difference.

[KRUSTY 34]

I dunno' Gas Bags, I think it's you that may have "msttepoynt", or whatever that is shorthand for?

Quote:

"Again the training that goes on does not allow things to go wrong unless the pilot does something he is trained not to do (and this should never happen in RPT)"

You ask Cypher to come "back to Earth". Maybe you should consider doing the same! :rolleyes:

[Cirronimbus]

There seems to be two issues with cadet schemes. Some people seem to feel that cadets that graduate from these schemes lack suitable experience (if that is the case, why aren't you as equally concerned about cadets who graduate from military training?) and others see the schemes as ways for operators to reduce Conditions of Service.

I think it is the reduction of CoS that is the real issue. It isn't just happening in aviation but in other walks of life too. A friend of mine worked as a "volunteer" (to get experience) for 6 months (Mon-Fri 9 to 5) to get a $45k a year job. I had the same opportunity but objected to work for free. He is employed and I am not. I can't blame anyone for taking opportunities like that (or the cadet scheme) if they want to. However, the companies that take advantage of people (who work for free or "buy" their own jobs) would be the problem. Surely there is some legislation somewhere that prevents workers (or cadets) being taken advantage of like this? If not, why not?

[kmagyoyo]

if that is the case, why aren't you as equally concerned about cadets who graduate from military training?

Your obviously oblivious to the Military and the training its Pilots go through. Suffice to say when an Ex-Military Pilot is in a position to leave he or she has served at least 10 years, has a couple of thousands of hours flying some of the most challenging roles in aviation throughout the World. Your trying to compare that with a 200 hour circuit basher?

[holdmetight]

if that is the case, why aren't you as equally concerned about cadets who graduate from military training

I think what he means is if we are worried about fresh civilian cadets not having enough experience when moving to the RHS of an RPT, then why don't we worry about fresh military cadets not having enough experience when moving up to an army/air force aircraft.

[Keg]

Whilst I don't have first hand experience of the military system, I'd also suggest that the supervision that the Bloggs is under when they get type rated and into a SQN is far more stringent than a Bloggs who has been cleared to the line in the RHS of an RPT jet.

[Cypher]

Gas Bags, I have to disagree... :)

If you screw up so badly in the RHS the Captain should take over. If the Captain does not do that then both pilots have screwed up royally.

Yes, and equally, if the Captain screws up the F.O should take over....

Training and in particular repetitive action dictates so. The QRH determines what to do in most if not all circumstances and if not followed verbatim that then leaves the pilots in for tea and bickies. Follow the training and the manuals and you would be a very unlucky RPT pilot to experience anything close to a fatality, which does not compare to a medical professional who holds life and death in their hands every day, if not every hour of every shift.

Training and particular repetitive action only accounts for a small amount of managing a non-normal situation overall.

You could say the same of medical professionals, a patient isn't breathing, A primary assessment is done, Airways, Breathing, Circulation, CPR and resuscitation procedures are started automatically as a response. A secondary assessment is then carried out once the primary is complete.

A engine fails at over the Pacific, the nearest landfall is 2 hours away and your in a 737 NG. Calls are made, failures are identified and non-normal checklists reference items (sorry memory items now) are conducted.

The patient is now breathing however not conscious. Agreed, there is no QRH for the human body. However we can take B.P, pulse, S02, medical history if one exists for the patient, etc. Yes, the doctor then has to determine what has happened for the patient to end up in this state if the reason isn't obvious and whether this will heal normally and continuing monitoring or further medical intervention is required. Decisions have to be made.

The QRH reference items are complete. The aircraft is in a steady state, all drills and checklists have been completed. The QRH states what the condition is that the checklist is for. As aircrew you have to ensure that the correct checklist is followed for the state the aircraft is in. We have oil pressure, N1, N2, oil temperature, fuel temperature, the tech log etc. what caused the engine to fail and should we attempt a restart? Where should we divert to? The nearest airfield has a short 1500 m runway however 30 minutes on from that is a 2000 m runway.. The QRH states, "Land at the nearest suitable airport".. however that is a loaded statement and calls for judgement on part of the flight crew. Decisions have to be made.

QRHs only take you so far. Once they are completed, they leave it up to the judgement of the aircrew and ultimately the captain to determine the safest course of action.

While every attempt is made to supply needed non-normal checklists, it is not possible to develop checklists for all conceivable situations.
Boeing Non-Normal Checklist Operation CI.2.1 B737NG

In multiple failure situations, the flight crew may need to combine the elements of more than one checklist. In all situations, the captain must assess the situation and use good judgement to determine the safest course of action.
Boeing Non-Normal Checklist Operation CI.2.1 B737NG

Doctors have drugs, aircrew have QRHs. Both drugs and QRHs you could say address a symptom/condition and treat it.

It is up to the doctor to monitor the patient to ensure that the drug is having the desired effect and addressing the symptom. And if it is not working or making the situation worse, discontinue the treatment and determine alternative action.

It is up to the aircrew to monitor the situation and ensure the QRH is having the desired effect and addressing the situation at hand. And if it is not working or making the situation worse, discontinue the checklist and determine alternative action.

It is up to the individual human, be in Doctor or Pilot to use his judgement and experience to decide how to return a non-normal situation to a normal state and choose the correct tool (drug/QRH) to achieve an outcome which achieves that. Then to continue monitoring the situation to ensure that it does not get worse until the desired outcome is achieved, an alive and happy patient, or a safe landing.

I would say that similar skills of deduction, judgement, reasoning and research are needed in both professions.

Checklists are not followed verbatim, they are combined, and used in conjunction with previous crew experience, resources from the ground, cabin and crew judgement. They are not a blind stab in the dark, fix it all. In fact use of the inappropriate checklist will make a bad situation worse.
Manuals just give you the information to use in which to make your judgement. The captain at any time can override any regulation or rule if in his/her judgement that is warranted to ensure a safe outcome.

Again the training that goes on does not allow things to go wrong unless the pilot does something he is trained not to do (And this should never happen in RPT). Light comes on, open book, follow instructions. Not rocket science. When everything goes pair shaped that is when the money is earned, and as far as fatalities go that is very rare. For example with the right training my mum could listen and obey a TCAS warning (provided she had the prerequrisite flying skills) and she would avoid what could be called a potential disaster)....This is what training and procedures are all about.

What if something outside the QRH occurs?

Again the training that goes on does not allow things to go wrong unless the pilot does something he is trained not to do (And this should never happen in RPT).

United 232 was a DC-10 that had the centre engine fan disk disintegrate leaving the aircraft with no hydraulics and no means to fly the aircraft. No QRH checklist was written for that situation because it was determined that such a situation was impossible. They had to relearn to fly the aircraft in order to make an attempt at landing. It was unfortunate that there were fatalities, however people survived thanks to the judgement and actions of the crew.
Lights came on, open book, no checklist found.


Do not make the profession out to be something it is not.

I never did. I used Doctors as an example of an professional. I never said pilots are doctors, doctors are pilots or pilot/doctors. I asked "How many doctors just do it because they "love it"....?"

My argument is that pilots are professionals, and doctors are professionals.
Infact it appears you agree with the statement.

[Fly-by-Desire]

Sounds like someones been playing too much Flight Sim X, I thought I recoignised that scenario :E

[Nuthinondaclock]

It’s funny how those that denigrate the value of experience are generally those that don’t have any.

The whole ‘experience’ thing is not about skill comparisons of the physical differences between flying an Airbus and landing a 207 on a goat track lit by car headlights. It’s not about the relevance of bringing the physical skills of one across to the other either. It’s about developing the mind set and thought processes to go about a task, analyse risks, make sound decisions and not paint yourself into a corner. This is what a GA or Military Pilot brings with them when they start on day one with an Airline. They still have to learn a new job but they have base survival skills already there that can be applied. This can’t be taught at a flying school but is acquired, often by scaring yourself and then analysing the event afterwards.

Ten years or so down the track and the differences between all candidates becomes less and less and there is absolutely no reason why a Cadet with the right attitude won’t be as good an Airline Pilot as his/her counterpart.
I agree with 404 Titan that the reason Jetstar's Cadetship has been set up is reduce Terms and Conditions to a new low, particularly when other pilots in the same group company are being put on forced leave, demoted and taking reduced flying lines to avoid retrenchment. And as for an earlier poster that mentioned ‘impending pilot shortage’. That old chestnut has been bandied around for the last 20+ years that I’ve been flying(And I bet long before then!) and other than a tiny little blip a couple of years back it still hasn’t eventuated and I doubt ever will. (Paradoxically it allowed Jetstar to recruit foreign Direct Entry Captains on 457 Visas and further divide the pilot community to lower conditions.)

For those of you looking at embarking on a flying career I’d recommend the following website setup by an American Pilot. Whilst things are done slightly different in The States it does seem we tend to follow and I think it provides a pretty good insight to the direction the industry is taking here.

The Truth About the Profession - Home (http://thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com/index.html)

[Trojan1981]

Nuthinondoclock :ok: Bang on.

Whilst I don't have first hand experience of the military system, I'd also suggest that the supervision that the Bloggs is under when they get type rated and into a SQN is far more stringent than a Bloggs who has been cleared to the line in the RHS of an RPT jet.

It takes a long time and a lot of supervision before they are cleared. Also, Mil aircrew are taught to fly in three dimensions, with aerobatics, formation, LL and lots of command decisions and planning early in their training. The experience is similar to that gained by GA pilots during their training and early career. I don't fly RPT but I am a nervous passenger when sitting in the back of an airliner and would prefer GA/Mil experience up the front when I fly.

Good luck to the cadets. It is a good oportunity if you only want to fly an airliner and have the cash. But I have only flown Jetstar once, and never will again.

[breakfastburrito]

Nuthinondaclock +1000
The Truth About the Profession (http://thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com/)
The Truth About the Profession (http://thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com/)
The Truth About the Profession (http://thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com/)

Every single person thinking of a pilot cadetship should read every single word of that site.
When you have done that, then consider if the airline industry is for you.
The design of these cadetship are to in-debt, you become an indentured serf. This is a deal with the devil if taken on credit.
Unless you can afford to buy your way out before you start the course, you will be trapped, with no escape, a plaything of the airline.

You only need to look at the financial crisis, bailouts & (ongoing) bonuses situation to see how indebtedness has been used as a tool to exploit the weak to favour the strong. Trust me you will be the weak.

You may also want to check the Easyjet cadet experience here on PPRuNE & how many cadets face bankruptcy as a result of their training expenses. Easyjet Cadet Pilot Slavery Contract (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/398854-easyjet-ctc-cadet-pilot-slavery-contract.html?highlight=easyJet%2FCTC+Cadet+Pilot+Slavery+Co ntract), and the follow-up CTC Wings Cadets part 2 (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/250640-ctc-wings-cadets-thread-part-2-a.html?highlight=easyJet%2FCTC+Cadet+Pilot+Slavery+Contract)

If you then decide the industry is for you, please, never complain & tell us you weren't warned.

[mmmbop]

I don't fly RPT but I am a nervous passenger when sitting in the back of an airliner and would prefer GA/Mil experience up the front when I fly.

Then you are simply ignorant. I have seen good and bad ex-GA pilots, good and bad ex-Military pilots and good and bad Cadets. But were my poor impressions formed from someone simply having a bad day??

But I have only flown Jetstar once, and never will again.

...and that was based on?? From your seat in the cabin you were able to determine that the pilot was not up to your lofty ideals of what a pilot should be? You of course could determine from there what curveballs were thrown at the crew during that flight. I am by no means a Jet* lover (I sit far closer to the 'hater' side), but sheesh......

Also, Mil aircrew are taught to fly in three dimensions, with aerobatics, formation, LL and lots of command decisions and planning early in their training.
Cadets also do aerobatics, and are encouraged to form command decision thinking processes early too. When the VAST majority of military pilots graduate from their initial training in Pearce, how many do you think continue with their aerobatics? Yep, those P3 & Herc pilots must be having a ball..... They end up the same as a cadet - been there done that, but now I'm doing this.

M

[bmarley26]

I'm a cadet and I can see why cadets make GA pilots angry.

The way I see it is that there is a sense of entitlement because you've slogged it out in the bush and now its your turn to fly big jets. These cadets come in "off the street" and are living the dream. Through my course there were cadets that were some of the smartest people I know that can fly and others that failed multiple CPL exams and flying tests.

Good Luck to both the cadets and GA pilots, there is nothing we can do to stop this, so lets embrace it and allow everyone a fair chance to enjoy the profession that I love so much.

Peace :)

[Tankengine]

I think many have lost the point with the "Mil better than GA, better than Cadet" argument.
A well trained Cadet course followed by 5 years in GA and THEN 5 years in the military would be a better training course to be my F/O or [S/O]:E

The issue is that all the airlines are starting cadet courses because there are not enough suitable applicants from both the military and GA.:rolleyes:

The reason is that there are not enough trainees, because THEY WILL NOT PAY ENOUGH!!!!!!:ugh:

While we are accepting the crap that these airlines dish out this will not change. :ugh:

Once upon a time Pilots would accept crap on the way up to an Airline job [holy grail] because there was that Qantas,Ansett or TAA job up there.

Now, starting perhaps with Virgin and Impulse and continued with Jetstar and Tiger the jet jobs are more like "GA in Jets" and there is no moving up the food chain [QF all that is left and not growing] WE now have a situation where there is no future in Airlines in Australia so the pricks need to have cadet courses to supply them with low paid labour!:=

If conditions improved sufficiently they would not NEED cadet courses.

How to achieve this? - I don't know.:(

[Trojan1981]

Cadets also do aerobatics, and are encouraged to form command decision thinking processes early too. When the VAST majority of military pilots graduate from their initial training in Pearce, how many do you think continue with their aerobatics? Yep, those P3 & Herc pilots must be having a ball..... They end up the same as a cadet - been there done that, but now I'm doing this.



You have obviously never done any LL tac flying in a P-3 or a Herc. I have, on Hercs at least once a fortnight, more often leading up to PB/CG airdrops. I even know of a Herc being spun in the past (:eek:). I realise there are useless pilots on both sides, however, when it comes to mindset, decision making and raw handling skills I believe an experienced GA or mil pilot would outperform a cadet.

You sound a little bitter. I take it you are not ex-mil.

I don't fly Jetstar for a number of reasons: Work providers are Qantas and Strategic, Jetstar passenger cabins are full of bogans, Jetstar has low airfares because they charge for job interviews and drive wages down.

Hardly ignorant big fella, just don't easily trust strangers with my life, especially inexperienced ones. When one-two-go crashed in Thailand a couple of years ago, I remember seeing footage of the burning jet off to the side of the runway. As it burned, a surviving Scottish passenger passed in front of the camera and said "I would fly with them again, definately". With this sort of travelling public out there, I'm am sure it will be a success.

I have nothing against those who apply, not at all, but I have reservations.

[patienceboy]

Successful cadets will have done in 100 weeks, what GA drivers will have taken twice that long to do...

A GA pilot does not "take longer" to gain qualifications. This is ridiculous. In fact, they complete the same qualifications in exactly the same time e.g. both will do the same airbus rating in exactly the same amount of time. If they had all of their training lined up for them from day one, they would be qualified in 100 weeks too!

Also, someone who has been flying commercially for 7+ years is probably a Saab captain or similar, not a 210 bush pilot. This brings with it years of CRM experience, decision making experience, weather flying experience, etc, etc. You learn the theory in the classroom, but you can only become good at it by doing it over and over and learning some tough lessons along the way.

I was told when I got my CPL that it was a ticket to START learning. Looking back, how true that was. You don't know what you don't know. Why do you think Qantas send their cadets to GA for two years before employing them as cruise pilots, where they will spend more years watching and learning before being put in the seat?

Another thought is the cockpit gradient. Australia is not used to such a steep gradient. There have been many accidents overseas where the low time FO literally watches the Captain crash the aircraft.

I would encourage anyone coming through the scheme, but I just think it's a real shame that the position is being devalued (i.e. We will not increase conditions to attract and retain good First Officers, we will just lower the bar to entry and increase supply thereby reducing conditions). It makes the industry increasingly less attractive to "bright" people.

[Slasher]

because you've slogged it out in the bush and now its your turn to fly big jets

bmarley26 its got nothing to do with that at all. GA flying teaches you the necessary knowledge to stay alive, something which you do not have. I for one loath having a 400 hour (or less) wonder as Second in Command when he should be in the jump seat - what these jokers do amazes me sometimes esp when it comes to airmanship. The SIC is expected by the PIC to possess a certain standard in any airline RPT operation, modern bloodey whizzbang FMC aircraft or not.

Give me a new hire FO with 2,000 hours GA hauling clapped-out Apaches and trashed 421s around the backblocks of the never-never anyday. The flying skills, safety-awareness, atitude and airmanship are all there, and in so having naturaly enhances CRM to its fullest (both on the same page).

[cloudhigh]

At the end of the day, cadets DO NOT HAVE EXPERIENCE! :}
Sitting on 11 type ratings, a hard earned B-CAT and both aerobatic and taildragger time I would like to think I have a rough idea about this flying stuff.... but a cadet with 400 hours in a A320!?!??!?!?
It has been said before, experience. Reading Neil Williams aerobatic book at present and he says people doing aerobatics need to give it time. TIME IS EXPERIENCE.
18 months isn't a long time :eek::bored::confused::ugh::{:(

[flyhardmo]

bmarly wrote
Good Luck to both the cadets and GA pilots, there is nothing we can do to stop this, so lets embrace it and allow everyone a fair chance to enjoy the profession that I love so much.


Its that sort of attitude and mindset that is füçk1n9 up the industry and everyone elses terms and conditions. The industry has always raped young, dedicated pilots by making them pay for training and offering low wages in return for that dream job in the end. They slog it out up north, on a station or in some hell hole 3rd word country to get the experience and have a crack at a regional with less pay than GA for the experience and hours for the next step. Now the airlines are jumping on the bandwagon following GA's lead because idiots like you with that attitude are willing to bypass the traditional system, pay more for training, get paid less in return just so you can wear a uniform an brag to your mates you fly a jet.
The one thing you don't think about is the life experiece you miss out on by not working in a crappy place with horrible pay. Everybody is in the same boat and helping eachother get by, all chipping in for a car, groceries and cases of beer. Thats real CRM building right there.
The cadets I fly with are borng as bat sh1t, don't go out usually because they have no personalitiy and also through lack of money. But hey lets embrace it. :=

I would encourage anyone coming through the scheme, but I just think it's a real shame that the position is being devalued (i.e. We will not increase conditions to attract and retain good First Officers, we will just lower the bar to entry and increase supply thereby reducing conditions). It makes the industry increasingly less attractive to "bright" people.
well said. :D

[mmmbop]

You sound a little bitter. I take it you are not ex-mil

Not bitter, and you are wrong. It's pretty arrogant to assume that.

I'm just pointing out assumptions/statements that are incorrect.

Your argument
I don't fly Jetstar for a number of reasons: Work providers are Qantas and Strategic, Jetstar passenger cabins are full of bogans, Jetstar has low airfares because they charge for job interviews and drive wages down.

doesn't follow on from what you implied in the post that included this statement -
But I have only flown Jetstar once, and never will again.

In the context of your post it had nothing to with your company's Airline preferences or standard of passenger; it was about the standard of pilot.

M

[Slasher]

so lets embrace it and allow everyone a fair chance to enjoy the profession that I love so much.

Flyhardmo I remember way back in my GA days a similar line was used by a little pr!ck with stars in his eyes who undercut the salary of an experienced new hire and HE got in - the experienced guy being told thank you but the boss had reconsidered so fark off.

After me and a few consoling mates met up with the experienced guy at the pub that evening, who should walk in but the little pr!ck! The snot-nose brat gave an uncomfortable look at us since he was heaviley outnumbered. The experienced guy walked up and politely asked him to leave, because this was a PILOT bar.

He said he wouldnt leave and that he had every right to drink here under the law.

The kid had no idea about GA drinking rules (or the fact the local cops were mates of ours) so he received a Panawonnica punch by the experienced guy and the :ouch:'d out brat rapidley picked up the message and left. As far as we know he went crying and blubbering back South a little more experienced ....

And our deserving mate got his job back! :ok:

[Artificial Horizon]

Slasher, you are a tw*t. Well done on ganging up on a young in-experienced colleague, you are a big man:(

[Bo777]

I wonder if line-captains will get an increase in their pay, seeing that j*'s now going to be a single pilot operation.

[Slasher]

Slasher, you are a tw*t.

No you are the twit. RTFP again AH - he walked over to the little bugger while the rest of us watched. In our day you faught your own battles.

Well done on ganging up on a young in-experienced colleague

That little backdoor **** was no colleague and as said above we didnt "gang up".

you are a big man

Dunno what to say. Um.....thank you? :}

[Tidbinbilla]

10 - 9 - 8 ........

[Oxidant]

5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 CLOSED !

......

There you go Tidbinbilla, done it for you mate.

Please act your age & not your shoe size, 'gentlemen' :rolleyes::hmm:

[cloudsurfng]

Slasher,

You talk about CRM, yet you appear to have a bit of a superiority complex. Great for CRM. And safety. Im pretty sure most of the CRM texts these days will suggest a link between a superiority complex, unnecessary risk taking, and smoking holes in the ground :ooh:

Your 'feel good' story about your extensive 'experience' :yuk: was a real treat. After that your mate really 'deserved' his job.

Lets face it folks, as has been said, it doesnt matter what background you have, you're all still a chance of being a knob in someone elses eyes. This whole arrangement stinks, but trying the age old :rolleyes: argument of how 'GA and MIL are better than cadets' on here really does nothing.

[teresa green]

If JQ intends to send its cadets bushbashing it is acceptable, if most of their flying is sim time it is not. Simple. Airmanship cannot be learnt in a sim, pilots have to frighten the sh%t out of themselves on more than one occasion, during their training, to become good pilots, if for no other reason to see for themselves how they handle a dicey situation. A sim does not put you into hospital or even worse into a box if you fail, perhaps you might think this is old school, and perhaps it is, but a aeroplane is still a aeroplane no matter how many bells and whistles, and if you want good pilots, (not systems managers) then they must do the hard yards for all concerned.

[flyhardmo]

Slasher I understand your story quite well and the fact that people want to give you hell about is just re-enforcing the attitude of Gen Y. A soft bunch of cadets with no life experience crying foul. :ugh:

[Mstr Caution]

If your condidering the cadetship, ask where you will be based.

"We have no plans of basing you in other than Australian Domestic ports or we have no intention of basing you in Singapore", means absolutely nothing.

Then ask them to put it in writing, unless of course you don't mind living in Singapore, Vietnam or some other location of Jetstars choice.

If they aren't prepared to put it in writing, be careful. It means they want you to remain as flexible as possible.

MC:8

[George Bush]

Great post Slasher made me feel really good that there are people like you out their calling yourselves professional pilots. There should never be a need for violence in aviation, you just demonstrated how your mate could not handle his misfortune in in a more appropriate gentleman-like manner. The fact that you sounded so proud telling that story make you a complete tool.

Perhaps your mate just wasn't up to scratch?

[Slasher]

And your post spells out the gap between your generation of pilot and mine Mr Bush. We stood up for ourselves.

[Cirronimbus]

"...but a cadet with 400 hours in a A320!?!??"

um? Don't all cadets and other "learner drivers" start off in single engine light aircraft and work their way up? Get their hours and THEN go on and get the type rating afterwards?

Whether the "cadet" is civilian or military and then graduates onto jets; the "experience" they have hour-wise is pretty much the same.

I think there might be a bit of jealousy out there among some of those who aren't happy about newbies graduating straight into the front end of a jet after training (military or civilian). Either you're good enough to get a military "scholarship" or else you fork out the $ and pay your own way; you have a choice.

The erosion of Terms and Conditions that might result from "cadets" paying for jobs is the real problem. Not the perceived lack of "experience" of the low-hour jet pilot (is there any difference between the newly graduated military cadet in the F18 or the newly graduated cadet in the A320?). If a percieved lack of experience was really the problem, I would think there would be massive insurance type issues to be considered by the employers of "cadet scheme" pilots. (Oops, he crashed the F18 because he lacked experience; he should have gone the GA route before he flew a jet......?????). If the military think it is ok for a raw "cadet" to do the training and graduate onto a jet; it is probably ok. I expect the training a cadet (for an airline) would be similarly intensive and by the time the cadet graduates; he/she would ready to fly that particular aeroplane. I can't imagine a major company taking what would be an enormous risk otherwise; perhaps I'm wrong?

If the erosion of Terms and Conditions isn't being addressed by those affected, then that would be your own fault wouldn't it? I don't advocate "cadet schemes" but I would think that if it was wrong, it would be a matter for a "union" of pilots to take up. Is anyone out there doing that?

It is the "paying for a job" that is the problem (not the percieved lack of experience). If the authorities (CASA etc) don't have a problem with "cadets" as pilots in RPT aircraft; then maybe there needs to be a lobby group (union) that puts a GOOD argument forward to prevent these schemes going ahead and therefore, ultimately destroying Terms and Conditions for everyone else?

[George Bush]

Slasher, your mate sounds like nothing more than a beer drinking thug...

Your generation stood up for themselves did they? Why would your mate after punching out some kid for undercutting his salary run back to the the employer who did the dirty on him in the first place and ask for the job back? One would think that being part of your generation who 'stood up for themselves' he would have told the employer to get stuffed and perhaps should have directed the punch to him, someone his own generation...your mate sounds a bit scabby....and which gen was responsible for that?

[Slasher]

If a percieved lack of experience was really the problem, I would think there would be massive insurance type issues to be considered by the employers of "cadet scheme" pilots.

Thats right Cirronim so now the aditional pressure is on the captain and thats how they get around it, as well as proof that a minimum number CRM modules have been completed.

[CazbahKid]

I'm currently learning to fly at BK and I'm looking forward to chucking all my sh1t in the car when I'm done and heading north to the stinking effing hot to look for some work, not lounging around in some air-conditioned Hong Kong hotel room waiting for my next sim session so I can tell all my friends I fly da shiny jets for about 40k pa.

Harry Hardman :ok:

[Slasher]

Slasher, your mate sounds like nothing more than a beer drinking thug...

Yep and a damn lovable bastard too. Lost track of him about
15 years back but after ringing around just now I heard hes
somewhere in the ME maybe EK or Etihad. I should look him
up! :)

[Gnadenburg]

I fly with cadets in the RHS of Airbus with a few hundred hours. An unnecessary risk in my opinion. One day they may be up to the task. But for a considerable period of time they are carried.

When I worked in Australia I never heard of a Captain taking over from an FO. With cadets its commonplace. Low level GA's, hard landings. And when things out of the ordinary, the multi-crew concept is a fallacy. You have a lonely, on your own feeling.

There is no reason this should be done in Australia.

We will see the minimum wage airline pilot in our generation. Who would have thought?

[Fonz121]

Im a bit sick of threads being closed. If you arn't interested in it don't read it. Let natural selection take its course and it will disappear by itself when people lose interest. As long as nothing illegal or slanderous is being done what's it hurting?

As for the cadetship, I agree that when it comes to experience it's not so much an issue of how good you can physically fly the thing (although in an emergency it would help...Sully) but more about the mentality of someone who has done it all before vs someone who hasn't. For those of us who have been in the industry (GA) a few years, all you have to do is think back to when you had clocked up 200hrs and you'll realise how much you actually didn't know then.

Its just sad purely from a T&C point of view.

[Tibbsy]

is there any difference between the newly graduated military cadet in the F18 or the newly graduated cadet in the A320?

I reckon there might be!

[Gnadenburg]

Yeah I agree. How do you compare the role, the training, and the supervision of a RAAF single seat fighter pilot to a low cost cadet?

Can't be done.

Millions invested in training versus a hundred thousand to produce a CAA minimum standard, checklist reader. Who, maybe through dedicated self-improvement, will come up to a good standard eventually.

[point76]

I've been around a while and flown with many F/O's on Boeing and Airbus aircraft with experience ranging from a few hundred hours to 10,000 +. Some have Military experience while most were G/A.
So who makes the best F/O in a complex aircraft like the A320? Of course that is a question that can't be answered because every pilot of every experience level is an individual with varying levels of skill ,motivation ,competence ,level of knowledge etc.
The fact is though that age and experience alone don't necessarily make a good F/O and eventually a good Captain. Some of the best and most knowledgeable F/O's I've flown with are younger 'in-experienced' guys who however are really keen to learn and most importantly really want to be in that RH seat. They'd love more money and would have been happy to have the company pay for training but in the end they just want to be doing what they're doing and realize that even a company like JS is not exactly poverty line stuff and in the end leads to pretty acceptable pay and conditions by the rest of OZ workers standards. Despite all the claptrap about low pay you'll still be in the top 10% of Australian wage earners even with JS.
As an aside I've also flown with some amazing ex-Military blokes too who in general have the same characteristic of rarely talking about the military unless asked and are keen to learn the ropes of Airline flying.They also stuff up on occassion just like anyone else and will openly admit same .
So for those G/A pilots :)considering any avenue at all including Cadetships to get in the Right seat of an A320 and if that's what you really want then go all out for it NOW !

[bmarley26]

and i'm only in my 20's

[The_Pharoah]

without stirring too much, I'd have to say reading this thread over the past few days has been entertaining..shoulda grabbed some popcorn! :} My gosh, there's a lot of resentment flying around.

Anyway, with all the hype on Jetstar...Q'link have just restarted their cadet program which is good - looks like there's 3 intakes this year with 2011 to be reviewed. No announcement, nothing....just sorta slipped that one in there. Oh and QF are meant to announce whats happening with their cadet program by 31 July. I'm sure that'll probably create another 10 pager.

[100.above]

Looks like qlink are doing the same thing charging a disgusting 18k upfront, then no doubt bonding endorsement costs. Industry makes me :yuk:.

How can link take trainees if there are plenty of d/e folks and not to mention the 100's of QF cadets waiting for industry placement in link? Makes you think if you went through with link you would be waiting a long time for a slot. Unless of course they are no longer interested in the QF cadets.

[Flying Bear]

The concept of cadets flying airliners is fine in concept - the military have been taking kids off the street, training them and then sending them out in fighter airplanes with only a few hundred hours for years. The military, though, do three things that no airline cadet scheme that I have seen does (well):

1. Conducts thorough aptitude testing to determine if the trainee will assimilate the required level of learning at the required rate;

2. Invests millions of dollars into their training - not just as a pilot, but as a person - with the intent of making said trainee mature enough to cope with the demands of the role;

3. Conducts the training from start to finish in-house (or by a contractor company with military oversight) to a very standardised programme essentially guaranteeing a known product. Candidates who at any time fall below the learning curve are "scrubbed" not offered another go based on funding some extra training themselves.

Unfortunately, from what I have observed, the selection process for airline cadet programmes tends to be based heavily on how strong the bank account is that is funding the training...

There is no reason why a good training programme for cadets, funded properly (ie by the Company in order to guarantee quality), cannot produce a competent A320 F/O which should not require much more than guidance and mentoring from the Captain. In flight take-overs (as outlined above) from skippers should be extremely rare.

The thing I find interesting, though, is that the rise of these schemes may cause airline flying (in the flavour of QF / VB / J*) to no longer be the "pinnacle" of civilian flying, rather it may become a separate and independant discipline that is normally entered at the very start of the career. As has already been stated elsewhere here - flying heavy airliners is a different kettle of fish to flying light twins single pilot IFR in GA, turbo-props in regional aviation or helos in the military. The skill set for each, although related, is different enough to have a wannabe pilot perhaps "pick a path" at the commencement of their career - GA becoming instructor, or GA becoming regional aviation in turbo-props, or military, or airlines. The traditional path of GA - GA slightly bigger - GA even more slightly bigger - airlines is becoming less distinct (and relevant) nowadays. The concept of becoming a master of one trade, not a jack of all, I think is becoming important in today's very diverse aviation industry.

How's this - the technology and reliability of modern airliners goes a long way to mitigate the requirement for experience garnered in "raw" flying skills, problems encountered in these aircraft would be best dealt with by adequate management of systems and redundancies, plus co-ordination of the crew as opposed to what many refer to as "stick and rudder" skills. A cadet, after 10-15 years at the very least in the RHS, I reckon would have gained enough experience by their participation and mentoring from Captains to be able to be considered for a command without too many problems. The fact that they have been exposed to it all this time would mean that if they haven't "seen it all before", I'm certain they would have heard about it in cockpit discussion! I have seen quite a few low time cadets excel in the sim through good systems management and CRM where 5,000 hour drivers (not of airline experience) have foundered. Specific skills for the job?

I loved my time flying charter in Navajos, Barons, etc - but none of that helped me with integration to multi-crew ops. Often I have seen that experience be a hindrance to those who have "learnt bad habits" and become "set in their ways".

There may be a positive in all this, though - these cadets should stay for years (at least 10-15) in the RHS to learn the complex job they are getting into. Because they bring nothing to the organisation initially - their pay / conditions should be lower than what "traditional" entry F/Os have earned. This may see a lot of the "wank and glamour" factor disappear from that job and encourage other avenues of aviation to develop with respect to pilot pay / conditions. Have we not seen a "downturn" in airline entry conditions and a (slight) improvement in many areas of GA and regional airlines? By way of example, I know of a flying school that pays it's instructors more than what these cadets will get annually in their first ten years on the job, and they certainly get more than a VB Cruise F/O! Perhaps other elements of the industry will be able to attract / keep some expertise and professionalism and my kid might one day learn circuits from an instructor who has a breadth of experience. Perhaps the "cannon fodder" approach to airline schemes and subsequent lesser pay / conditions than before will keep some of the "little rich kids" away to do other things - after all, 85K outlay for something like 40K pa return (at least for the first several years) plus crappy basing / rosters, etc is not really a good investment considering the options available...

I agree with Pharoah that this thread is very entertaining, particularly with all the resentment out there, which is of itself, why the pilot profession is going down the tubes. I often ask myself why pilots (both junior and senior) prostitute themselves for poor pay / conditions / treatment by various employers, yet whinge about it at the same time. The answer I come up with is always this - because if they don't, someone else in our hallowed profession will and they will miss out - so better get in first! Professional prostitution / abasement / anything at all for that next bigger airplane...

This, of course, is the root of the problem - and Bruce Buchanan, et al, are simply taking advantage of this from a commercial perspective.If I was a shareholder I'd be cheering! Now, to just find an office worker who is happy to pay for their training on the new photocopier... :ugh:

[goodonyamate]

there's an ex qf cadet at jetstar asia who was offered a command (in fact i believe they all were). he decided to stay, and got his command after 2.5 - 3 years from first checking out on the 320. by all accounts he is doing just fine. Many of the cadets at the regionals were offered commands as well. seems alot of the 'cadets are unacceptable' brigade are those in ga who think they are owed a job in the airlines. Maybe we should judge each individual on their own merits and performances rather than tar everyone with the same brush (cadets are incompetent, GA pilots are nothing but cowboy hacks, instructors have no 'real' experience, Military are all moustache growing long sleeve wearing self inflating egotistical knobs blah blah blah...)
lets just wait and see. maybe we'll all take a united stand and none of the 20,000 :eek: expected applicants will apply. hahahhhhhaaaa as if pilots would ever be united....

Looks like jetstar will win that race to the bottom.....

[Willie Nelson]

Making some things very clear, I have a copy of the Jetstar EBA in my hand and the following can be said.

1) A "Graduate" cadet or Junior F/O (as described in the 2008 EBA) once completed the course will be on 60% of a Level 2 F/O's wage, which gives them just over $55,000 p.a.

2) A junior F/O will not earn a standard F/O's salary until they qualify for an A.T.P.L. not a frozen A.T.P.L. but a full A.T.P.L. (including command time) If you do not meet the command requirements of CAR 5.172 then the company will allow you to gain the necessary requirements at their discretion.

3) This is not like the Qantas cadetship which upon graduation and successful farming out considers you like any other direct entry pilot of Qantas, rather than a junior second officer.

These points may have been brought up earlier however It is worth reiterating

[43Inches]

after all, 85K outlay for something like 40K pa return (at least for the first several years) plus crappy basing / rosters, etc is not really a good investment considering the options available...

What has changed?

When I started it was $30-$50k and your first few years were around $10-$20k income in GA, very little progression to anything airline or twin charter for that matter. And as far as basings are you saying that being able to stay in a city (on poor wages) vs having to move outback to fly a 210 etc for 3 years sweeping and cleaning (still on poor wages) is a step backwards. I think the rich kids may be more inclined towards todays offer than the past career path.

I agree totally with the Air Force vs Civil argument at present. Some Asian airlines run their cadet programs much the same with a strict progress requirement, but these airlines pay for the training.

Not long ago I met a check and training captain on a 737 who rose to the position after 10years starting as a cadet with 250 hours.

[j3pipercub]

Q'link have just restarted their cadet program

Awesome! Can't wait for those stammerred ctaf calls on centre to start again...

[The_Pharoah]

but wait, there's more!! you have to pay $18k upfront which is reimbursed up to 75% over 5 years in 25% lots. This is not the endo cost for which there is a standard 3 year bond. However, and I quote "QantasLink has an agreement with Qantas Airlines for progression into "Qantas mainline". As a guide, under this agreement pilots are required to be employed for a minimum period of 2 years with QantasLink prior to applying for a position on a heavy jet within Qantas Airlines."

I guess thats the carrot.

In regards to this:

"2) A junior F/O will not earn a standard F/O's salary until they qualify for an A.T.P.L. not a frozen A.T.P.L. but a full A.T.P.L. (including command time) If you do not meet the command requirements of CAR 5.172 then the company will allow you to gain the necessary requirements at their discretion."

Doesn't Jetstar offer an ICUS program or something?

[neville_nobody]

Meanwhile in the USA (who are the world's best practice in everything aviation apparently) they are trying to legislate minimum of 1500 hours total for an FO in RPT and effectively killing zero to hero programs, which are coming under some scrutiny in the USA.

There is no comparison between a cadet program and the airforce so lets just drop that idea. The Air Force only recruit a handful of people a year so are able to have a very very high standard.

[nt.pilot]

wowee... to much info to absorb!! from reading this forums i can see that the general gist is go for these cadetships because this is way of getting an airline pilot job nowadays.... but now there are more options than this time a week ago... so qlink( i cant find any info about this re-opening on the website..), REX, cathay or Jetstar??! Or the airforce??

They all have thier draw backs but which one is the best, in terms of career progression? I find the thought i living in hk in a tiny apartment without housing allowance intimidating but thats part of the fun i guess!

So honestly which one if you were 21, just out a uni and only have a GFPT, would you go for???

[The_Pharoah]

nt.pilot...try here --> QantasLink Recruitment: Attention (http://qantaslink.bfound.net/detail.aspx?jobId=86077&CoId=189&rq=2)

[Eastmoore]

This is all about Lose Cannon(BB) taking advantage, once again of Australian Pilots.

The Cadet scheme has nothing to do with helping young pilots get a job.

But alll about Jetstar making money out of the least able of us to bargain a fare deal.

Jetstar will make money out of the training cost and then pay these guy $57000 a year, before tax, before salary sacrificing training cost. Maybe take home $40000 a year before tax, guessing.

$30,000 less then a direct entry FO.

Only Jetstar wins.

[eocvictim]

Unfortunately, from what I have observed, the selection process for airline cadet programmes tends to be based heavily on how strong the bank account is that is funding the training...


A quick look at any of the flying school car parks will reinforce this.

The thing I find interesting, though, is that the rise of these schemes may cause airline flying (in the flavour of QF / VB / J*) to no longer be the "pinnacle" of civilian flying, rather it may become a separate and independant discipline that is normally entered at the very start of the career.

How many other pilots in the top end of GA now see "airlines" as a step sideways (or down ignoring the meagre pay rise)?

However, and I quote "QantasLink has an agreement with Qantas Airlines for progression into "Qantas mainline". As a guide, under this agreement pilots are required to be employed for a minimum period of 2 years with QantasLink prior to applying for a position on a heavy jet within Qantas Airlines."

How many people have actually successfully done this? Everyone I know who was in Qlink gave up and went to VB.

REX, cathay or Jetstar??! Or the airforce??
So honestly which one if you were 21, just out a uni and only have a GFPT, would you go for???


Well if the whole point is to avoid GA forget Rex; you're probably (not 100%) too old for airforce and face it, you're locked in for 13 years thats not what you want if you want a airline gig. Jetstar cadet program? Well if I said to you could have a job flying a Jet for free; however, you wont get paid for 5-8 years, oh and you're not allowed to earn an alternative living, would you reconsider the offer?

[Zoomy]

Again all I can say is "JET STAR" " GET STUFFED".


Did I say that before:bored:

[nt.pilot]

I dont want to avoid GA, I am happy to do that too. I was just basing that on the fact that 8 years from now a large percentage of F/O's would most likely be from these cadetships... so I thought not going for a cadetship at this stage would put me behind the others who did go for a cadet program... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

[breakfastburrito]

nt.pilot, these cadet schemes are designed to make you an indentured serf. Find some other way to make it to the shiny jet, but don't get sucked into their "fly now pay forever" deal. You will live to regret it.
I think you'll find that there is a "loose" interpretation of the seniority list at many operation's for promotion.

[Swine Facipic]

Id rather go for CX , where I dont have to pay anything.

[Swine Facipic]

Is it open to all nationalities without GOVT. Fee-help funding.

[Angle of Attack]

If you were a normal young person without money then you would not go for this because you cant afford it, get a job pay for your flying lessons and go for it!

Pretty Simple really!

[eocvictim]

Looks like the Media have seen how quickly this thread as spread, the Jetstar Cadet scheme is on Channel 7 news.

NT.pilot you may be the only person we save.

If you do choose not to take up the Jetstar scheme dont think for a second you've missed out. You haven’t, you will still get there but gain so much more along the way; you don’t need it but you will never regret it. If you do that's you're choice but don’t ever come on here and complain about conditions.


Despite what my earlier sentiments may infer, I have no problems with cadet schemes that bear the burden of training costs. If you could get into the CX course and all you want to ever do is fly a jet; you'd be mad not to take it, whatever the downfalls.

To the tw@t (tw@t) on the news, not "everyone" wants to fly jets, if I wanted to go A-B-A all day long I’d drive a train.

[desmotronic]

Is my family safe flying jetstar with a 200hr cadet FO in busy class E airspace ? :}

[Mstr Caution]

The concept of cadets flying airliners is fine in concept - the military have been taking kids off the street, training them and then sending them out in fighter airplanes with only a few hundred hours for years.

Unfortunately, from what I have observed, the selection process for airline cadet programmes tends to be based heavily on how strong the bank account is that is funding the training...


The unfortunate fact is the MERIT based system of becomming an Airline Pilot is fast evaporating. Maybe this is what Bruce Buchanan refers to when he stated "this attractive program which seeks to remove some of the traditional barriers to becomming an airline pilot.

At what point are the Cadets employed by Jetstar, after gaining all their qualifications & experience?

If they were employed first up, then whilst employed completed all their training & endorsements. I would understand the cost of the training being legitimately salary sacrificed (tax deductable).

If they are employed after attaining all their qualifications & experience, then the job offer & acceptance would be on condition that the qualifications & experience was a pre-requisite prior to employment. Including all that ab initio training. So how could that be tax deductable?

It would be comparable to someone training privately to attain all their qualifications & experience, then once employed in GA salary sacrificing or claiming as a tax deduction all the cost of their training.

[Mstr Caution]

Is my family safe flying jetstar with a 200hr cadet FO in busy class E airspace ?


If the Captain is incapacitated & it's VMC by Day with no traffic about or involved MEL procedures & all systems are functioning normally, then maybe.

[pilotdude09]

Very interesting reading.

Quite comparative to the railways where I work at the moment.

Some train drivers spent 5-7 years getting treated like crap and being the bitch and sitting in the observers seat before they were allowed to touch the controls and nowadays you can walk in off the street and be taught how to do the job with no or little experience and sit in the drivers seat straight away and at my particular company be in charge of 30,000 tons behind you within 6-10 months. Of course this instantly gets these guys backs up and they don't see the positives but see all the negatives. However the business loves it because they can bring these people in on lower salaries and lower training giving the company the ideally molded employee.

Some very good arguments for and against why the cadetship is good and why it's bad. But I think it's to lower the conditions and it also allows the company to mould the employee they want. There's got to be something in it for Jetstar, it wouldn't make business sense not to have some sort of economical gain.

I do think it's great if you have the money and the time......but how you are going to pay 80k when your on a 60 what ever week course? and afford to live....seems pretty impossible to me, unless mummy and daddy are paying for it or you have a great bank manager who will let you get away with not paying the loan back for a year.

Personally I am in the process of building a house and I intend on borrowing against that and going for my CPL whilst I'm earning several figures then hopefully I'm able to go Fly in fly out and work 2 weeks up north and work 2 weeks flying for someone earning bugger all and pay for my life by working 2 weeks driving trains up north. Then eventually get into an Airline and take what is looking up to being a massive pay cut but I guess the things you do to follow your dream.

[Mstr Caution]

However the business loves it because they can bring these people in on lower salaries and lower training giving the company the ideally molded employee.


Maybe the same executives can take personal responsibility for the train/plane wreck left behind, after reducing standards to the minimum allowable. Buy that would never happen!

Somethings gotta give sooner or later.

[Jackliveshere]

Just after some clarification, I'm sure someone more involved in the industry then me can help out. I've read numerous times on this thread that the starting wage for a First Officer is approx $55k. Reading the Air Pilots Award 2010 document just now, under schedule B.1.2 "Larger aircraft classifications and minimum salaries", going by the entry "Narrow body aircraft", the minimum wage for a F/O is $70,045 as per that table.

After all the training is done, type rating received, position obtained etc, wouldn't it be fair to say that $70,045 would be the minimum wage not $55k? Dunno know if I'm wrong or not, just can't quite put two and two together.

Can anyone clarify?

[404 Titan]

Swine Facipic
Id rather go for CX , where I dont have to pay anything.
It may not cost you anything right now but over your career it will cost you about AUD$1,000,000.00 in lower terms and conditions compared to someone that came in as a DESO.

[eocvictim]

Jackliveshere

As its been pointed out in most of the posts, you're only an FO when you hold an ATPL, until then you're a Junior FO which is where the $55k comes from.

It would be a good few years to get the required hours to hold an ATPL.

[Jackliveshere]

Thanks ecovictim, knew I was missing something!!

[student_downunder]

How is a cadet meant to get all of the required hours to be granted their ATPL if they are stuck as a first officer

ATPL requirements state that a pilot must have 250 hours pilot in command (100 may be ICUS)

Does this mean 6 years stuck as a junior first officer, with no option for promotion to first officer or even captain?

[Mstr Caution]

It would be a good few years to get the required hours to hold an ATPL.


A few years engaged as a junior pilot sitting in the right hand seat of a jet, conducting Airline Transport operations, to enable the pilot to accrue the necessary experience to attain an Airline Transport Pilots Licence.

On attaining their Airline Transport Pilots licence, the recipient will then be able to continue occupying the right hand seat. Now fully qualified & with appropriate licencing.:yuk:

[The Green Goblin]

uote:
It would be a good few years to get the required hours to hold an ATPL.
A few years engaged as a junior pilot sitting in the right hand seat of a jet, conducting Airline Transport operations, to enable the pilot to accrue the necessary experience to attain an Airline Transport Pilots Licence.

On attaining their Airline Transport Pilots licence, the recipient will then be able to continue occupying the right hand seat. Now fully qualified & with appropriate licencing.

Only the skipper needs the ticket mate :ok:

[eocvictim]

Has anyone done the very basic sums on this little venture?

If they train 70 in each group every year they stand to make/save themselves roughly (very rough) $60-65million over the first 6 years.

From a business point of view, one might ask why its taken so long?!

It seems the best way to be a part of this scheme is to buy into the company.

[nt.pilot]

It may not cost you anything right now but over your career it will cost you about AUD$1,000,000.00 in lower terms and conditions compared to someone that came in as a DESO.

What do you mean by lower conditions, is this referring to the rent in hk? does CX take out of your salary the training costs?

[pilotdude09]

Jesus mate, serious question, what's it like driving a 30,000 ton train

Pays very well and Good fun until **** hits the fan then you get to do a lot of walking! 5km return trip from the front to the back and in 45+ degree heat. Hard to explain but I guess it would be like flying a Jet, can get very repetitive and boring but then like flying no landing is the same and in a train I guess you don't do the same thing each time. :ok:

Eocvictim, if those sums are correct.....Jetstar has some very smart bean counters who have just justified their jobs for a while!

[404 Titan]

nt.pilot

Yes it refers to a lack of a housing allowance. I ran the numbers for wannabes on the fragrant harbour forum.

[nt.pilot]

Thanks titan.

Does anyone know if Virgin Blue are likely to do something similar to this? If all the other carriers in aus are doing it they would also jump on the band wagon wouldn't they?

[pilotdude09]

Can Australians actually enter into the Cathay Pacific cadet program?

[404 Titan]

pilotdude09

Yes they can. There are a number of threads running on the Fragrant Harbour wannabes forum.

[Mstr Caution]

Goblin

I'll reword my post.

The company has a Junior First Officer with minimal experience sitting in the right hand seat of a jet engaged in Airline Transport operations.

Essentially doing exactly the same duties as a Direct Entry Senior First Officer!

The company chooses to call it a Senior or Junior First Officer position. On those pay rates it's more like a "A" & "B" scale first officer wage for exactly the same work.

I can't help but note the irony, that a junior "B" scaler is engaged in Airline Transport Operations on a lower wage. To enable that person to attain an Airline Transport Licence, so they can continue to conduct the same work for the airline & on achieving that experience at the (higher) minimum wage per the Air Pilots award.:yuk:

Why would the airline ever recruit experienced Direct Entries when they have a source of self funded pilots prepared to do the same work for less?

MC

[AllInGoodTime]

Bells, Whistles and Shiny Baubles - cadet and traineeships --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi All


Are all these cadetships and traineeships just bells, whistles and shiny baubles that dazzle the desperate aviator, longing to brag to the ladies that I'M A JET PILOT, (what a great song). But are you signing your short to medium term life (financially at least) away to an uncertain and only where "vacancy's exist future".

Or are they the way of the future, and maybe would have been a great thing to have 20+ years ago.


In a nut shell, Cadetships/Traineeships on this scale good, bad or a great money spinner, that might damage some young pilots careers and bank balances?

[Mstr Caution]

But are you signing your short to medium term life (financially at least) away to an uncertain and only where "vacancy's exist future".

I can imagine the email to graduating cadets.


"......has some exciting opportunities for Junior First Officer to be based in.....(insert third world country name here).....for a period of up to six years. Interested pilots shall contact flight operations by close of business Monday & report for duty at.....(insert Seconday Airport in Capital City here).....at 9am Friday."

[10000FT]

I think the cadets will be missing out.

Yes going through GA is hard. Yes it is very painful at times and yes you do have to deal with a lot of 'interesting' operators. But its all character building, and looking back its a fantastic experience. You meet a lot of great people all going through the same thing, and the mateship you get going through that, well i'm sorry but you just don't get in a large airline.

The other thing is, going through GA you get to do a lot of ACTUAL flying.
For at least some of these young cadets, i'm sure there is a dream of poling a plane around the sky, and sadly once they start with a airline, well thats just not how its done. And although an airline is the end goal for most and dealing with the fact that we will all eventually become 'managers' rather than 'stick n rudder men', is enevitable, at least going through GA you get that fix for a few years.

I wouldn't change a thing did in my GA time, and I would say to all the would be cadets - don't discount the great times you can have bashing around in control of a 5, 10 or 20 seater before you spend the next 40 odd years pushing buttons

[Slasher]

(airline flying is so restricted now through the use of QAR's etc
that many pilots reflect back on the fun flying they did prior to
joining an airline)

Amen to that Going B. And every hour spent in a flamin Airbus
enhances the yearn. :(

bPSElw8qEsI

I was just wondering whats become of the Makeshift Pilot
Licence (MPL) program CASA was sprooking a while back?

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Last night on Ch7 News (http://au.biz.yahoo.com/100602/2/2ddmn.html). Article about Jetstar pushing for MPL and Oxford supplying the product. CH7 gasping that 19yo kids could be flying you around in an airliner:eek:

Looked to me more like an add for Oxford.

The reporter travelled to Melbourne courtesy of Jetstar:E

[noprobss]

I can see how people are coming to the conclusion that you will end up a JFO if you go through the ab course.
BUT if you apply for the second stream only (Having passed all ATPL's and MECIR) once finishing the course (3 months) will you be an FO on $84,720 less the $10k (as 1/6 of the costs for the training)?
I can understand the disappointment of whats happening here, with the airlines being able to implement these 'schemes' which will allow them to have FO's and pay them less...and understand that the only way to stop it happening is if we show no interest for these type of positions. But unfortunately I'm sure that there are many other people like myself in GA stuck in positions where I am getting loads of hours......single engine piston hours.....and this would fast track my chance of sitting in a 'big shinny jet'. Although taking a pay cut of what a DEFO would receive I will certainly be making more than I am now in GA and saving 2yrs?
I don't know. I started filling in the application but havn't sent it through yet..

[nt.pilot]

This looks like the way of the future, if you meet the requirements protesting might just mean you miss this oppurtunity, because other ppl who meet the requirements will go for it.. Weigh up the pro's and con's, if i were you and had the option and the money to do it i would go for it! I am looking at the ab initio course but it just costs way too much and like a normal 21 year I old do not have a spare few thousand dollars.... it would be better for someone like me with (GFPT ONLY ) to go for rex.... or cathay

[Fonz121]

if you meet the requirements protesting might just mean you miss this oppurtunity, because other ppl who meet the requirements will go for it

What requirements? $$?

[das Uber Soldat]

Interesting thread.

I'm in GA. I've got maybe 2000 TT but not the 500 multi. I have an ATPL.

I'm seriously considering the ACP. I've always been against the idea of paying for your endorsement so I'm somewhat conflicted. I will have the 500 multi in 2 months time at the current rate I'm flying, so its a case of either wait until then and try direct entry, or apply now for fear of missing the boat.

Thoughts?

[eocvictim]

BUT if you apply for the second stream only (Having passed all ATPL's and MECIR) once finishing the course (3 months) will you be an FO on $84,720 less the $10k (as 1/6 of the costs for the training)?


This is just a case of the airline pissing in your pocket and calling it rain.

Last week an experienced turbo prop driver could have applied for a DEFO slot, and paid the relatively nominal endorsement fee. Now J* opened this "advanced" cadet program (I'd hardly call an experienced ATPL pilot with 2000hr+ a cadet) option what chances do you think there are of the original DEFO slot? It’s a blatant money grab. Nothing more, nothing less.

$84,720 for an A320 endo? Hardly seems right. What do they charge privately, $28kish? Seems you're paying for a job.

noprobss, take up this scheme if you "have to get out" but just remember, you helping reduce conditions for yourself and everyone else. Granted, "if you dont, someone else will" but dont ever complain the money isn't what it was when you're right at the forefront of ruining it.

PS anyone who's interested in this scheme, I have a used car for sale, its a bit old and not 100% but I'm only asking 10% more than what it cost new :ok:

[noprobss]

For the 'Advanced Cadet Program' I am some what confused on the pricing...

Ab Initio Cadet Programme Price (http://www.jetstar.com/au/en/pilot-cadet-program/who-is-oxford/costs-and-funding.aspx)
A course fee of AUD43,895.00 is payable to OAA prior to commencement of training.
Jetstar will provide you with 50% sponsorship (AUD 21K) towards the ground training costs of the ACP. In addition to this Jetstar will fund (up front) the remaining costs of the ACP program - this will be repaid to Jetstar by cadets over a period of 6 years whilst you are employed as a pilot operating for Jetstar. Note: you will be bonded for a period of 6 years

Pilot Cadet Program - Jetstar Airways (http://www.jetstar.com/au/en/pilot-cadet-program.aspx)
$84,895 AUD

The numbers don't seem to add up....J* will pay 50% "Ground school" $21k...therefore total ground school is $42k? Thats some good ground school....could do another CPL.
Then there is $42895 left which I assume goes to OAA? Oh perhaps the extra $1k is for the "OAA assessment test thing".

So $84895(Total) - 21000(J* 'sponsorship') = $63895 what I need to pay over 6 years = $10649/yr
Starting salary for FO is $84,720 - 10649 = $74071 = a lot more than what I am getting in GA.

After typing this out I am less confused about the pricing but still in amazement how it can cost $85k for an A320 end...

eocvictim:
What kind of car is it and how much? and can i pay you over 6 years? :ok:

[hongkongfooey]

Wonder what will happen when these wiz kids realise that their mates in Uni, after spending 4 years smoking dope and rooting other uni students will probably be on at least double the money they are and the gap will widen as the years go by.

Come in Spinner, join the race to the bottom ( surely the bottom can't be too far away :ugh: )

[Mstr Caution]

once finishing the course (3 months) will you be an FO


Noprobbs, you will a candidate for possible recruitment, if the airline happen to need pilots & you meet their standards. You may be on a hold file or as the FAQ outlines suggested you may be offered employment with a partner airline or other airline yet to exist.

Keep in mind this cadet program has probably taken months to put together, probably longer. When the leisure & low cost market was going gangbusters. Reading in the media the last few weeks, the tide may be turning as punters return to the non leisure carriers.

[ratpoison]

after spending 4 years smoking dope and rooting other uni students will probably be on at least double the money they are
Lol, how very very true.

the tide may be turning as punters return to the non leisure carriers.
And who may THEY be? There is only ONE in Oz who is fast becoming a leisure themselves with a leisure mentality CEO!

[nt.pilot]

I just finished uni and am on the higher end of the graduate pay scale, but i still want to be a pilot! I dont have commitments like kids or a mortgage so a pay cut in order to do something i actually enjoy is worth it. I sit at my desk watching the a380 on final and all the planes flying over the anzac bridge...and it makes me miserable knowing i am not up there.. honestly life isn't just about money. You have to work for the rest of your life, you might as well do something you enjoy...

I went to uni with the full intention of using the graduate job to pay for my flying and to have a 'fall-back' just in case there was another economic crisis.

[eocvictim]

nt.pilot, how was the eco degree? I, along with a lot of experienced mates are now looking for alternative careers because people keep prostituting themselves degrading the conditions in the JOB we WORKED for. If you want to fly so much, but dont care about money do it privately and dont :mad: up our CAREER.

Dont justify degrading the pay because flying is a "fun" job. Its still a job and its still hard work. I've had enough of my mates giving me that great big belly laugh when I say I've had a hard day at work. Then have the audacity to tell me its not REAL work. Its attitudes like what you infer that allow airlines and the whole industry to abuse their employees. :ugh:

If I hear "honestly life isn't just about money. You have to work for the rest of your life, you might as well do something you enjoy..." one more time I'm gonna be sick :yuk: Not really doing your degree justice with that statement.

[404 Titan]

eocvictim

Unfortunately it is usually a statement made by some generally from a point of immaturity. It must be reinforced that private pilots fly because it is fun. Commercial pilots, Air Transport Pilots and Military Pilots fly for a living. That doesn’t mean we can’t/don’t enjoy our job but the main reason we do it is to earn a living.

[Global Xpress]

Noprobss, correct me if im wrong, but my understanding of the Jetstar EBA is that you would be paid as a Junior FO, ie around 55K, until you have a full, unfrozen ATPL with the required aeronautical experience.

So 45K after the 10K a year loan repayment sounds alot less encouraging.

If you have an ATPL why not apply direct entry? (Understandable if you dont have the multi req).

[mohikan]

You can forget being hired as a DEFO in the future by JQ.

You will cost more and you dont make JQ money like a self funded JFO going through the process described on this thread does. Therefore you are not competitive for the position, despite your flying experience. Indeed, having experience in the industry is now a negative.

CP of Qantas advised some time ago that 60 QF pilots had applied for vacancies under the MOU.

None have been accepted, none will be accepted and the reason is simpler then being 'industrial pollution'.

Experienced F/O's and S/O's are a burden now. You can't charge them for training and you don't make money from them.

The whole argument about the ability / capacity of MPL's ect doesn't even come into it. Its all about money and laughing at the pilots while they (yet again) make f-wits of themselves

[nt.pilot]

I know what you mean , but why do you want to leave aviation? It would be hard/depressing to go from doing something like flying to sitting in an office all day....

[a320please]

I know there would be alot of guys watching this thread very worried. Alot of guys and girls were given interviews by jetstar this year, and they are still interviewing as we speak. Guys were given start dates in June but only to be pulled 2 weeks ago will they ever start or are they making room for the cadets.

[eocvictim]

You just dont get it nt.

The way the industry is heading we wont have a choice unless we want to give up what we've earned. This scheme already stands to take away the experience we've earned in favour of sell-outs who are happy to pay for it.

Before someone turns around and says "oh but $150k is more than enough"; first of all where do you draw the line? Second, I dont work for an airline and dont want to work for an airline, I would rather become a trady. If the airline conditions slip, everyone’s conditions slip. I have a threshold, once it drops below that I'm out, like a lot of ex Ansett guys I've met over the years. :ouch:

Once this happens (note not if) I will be very happy to overcharge any cadet I meet, clearly they have no respect for their income. Especially when they're happy to line the pockets of management; by the way, how much of that $65m do you reckon Bruce "Buckscam" will walk away with in 6 years? :=

[patienceboy]

I dont have commitments like kids or a mortgage so a pay cut in order to do something i actually enjoy is worth it.

I understand your position, but one day you will find yourself seeking a job WITH a mortgage and kids. There will be no options for you since jobs will be nearly impossible to get (flooded market) and the pay low due to the preference being for wannabe cadets who pay their way in to the industry. Apparently your experience won't be worth anything. Then you will understand why everyone was carrying on back in 2010.

[Chadzat]

Once this happens (note not if) I will be very happy to overcharge any cadet I meet, clearly they have no respect for their income.\

This is exactly the point isn't it. I find it amazing that there are so many (mostly young) people who get into aviation, mostly through cadet schemes, but also through GA that seem to have no motivation to EARN MONEY. And by money I dont just mean enough to pay for your groceries and petrol, but REAL MONEY that we should be entitled to as skilled professionals.

This is a rhetorical question- Why would you WANT to pay TWICE as much to do your training, to earn only 60% of the wage? Isn't the whole point of WORKING to make money? :eek:

As I think most are getting at in this thread, there is no issue with cadetships per-se. In fact they have the potential to be beneficial to the industry if done right. Unfortunately the majority are not done right and candidates sell their soul to an organisation that screws down the whole profession.

Its as simple as that.

[breakfastburrito]

Whilst trawling another PPRuNe forum, this little gem came to my attention.

Quote:
As to our profession, well I had a great time but its finished, really finished. I derive no joy from saying that. A friend of mine told me about a dinner he went to where there was an advisor in economics to the "brightly coloured" airline board, (a social accident - he did not know him before or fix it up, his friends he went with did). He told me that this guy was fascinating. His contempt for pilots knew no bounds and he expounded gleefully on the summer-only contracts he forsaw and the increasing contractorisation of piloting overall, where contractors bid for the work the brand generated and the lowest cost base won. He looked whistfully at Eastern Europe as a great source of cheap pilots and said supply easily exceeded demand for the forseeable future. His view was that flying an airliner was a slightly more sophisticated train driver style job and said, bluntly, that some train drivers now earned more than pilots, which was as it should be in his view, especially for FO's who he viewed as a legal requirement but otherwise woefully overpaid for their contribution. This, he predicted would change rapidly and so, it seems, is the case at the brightly coloured airline, as elsewhere.

He admitted, apparently, that airlines were a pretty cosy club through the various trade bodies they belong to and that they all got together to discuss areas of mutual interest like overhead - particularly staff costs. The oil price makes an airline a price taker but salaries are where they can be a price maker, he said, and that they were all determined to drive the status and salaries of piloting through the floor. It was, he felt, a ridiclous "career" to enter as the specialisation was so narrow and the industry itself so vulnerable to external shocks that it was virtually to condemn oneself to a job where opportunities were increasingly limited and salaries shrinking in real terms every year and with little chance to move outside it at a corporate level unless to manage within it, where the focus would inevitably be on who could deliver the cheapest cost base given the total commoditisation of the industry product. That meant being the best at screwing down the earnings of your own peer group. He felt that this was all fair game and that the market was so easy to rig against pilots come any sign of a downturn in the economy that becoming one was the height of folly, but that, never-the-less, plenty of people kept applying so there was little need to adjust the career to attract the best, they would take what they got. Safety cut little ice because, as he put it, "you lot all want to get home to your families at the end of your overpaid day, so the passengers will be fine too."

Personally, I would have wanted to either walk out or punch him on the nose, but my mate stayed, gripped by the depth of the exposition this economics expert who sat on many other boards of other industries as well went on to over the course of their evening.
Source: Astraeus A320 Contracts - PPRuNe Forum

Newbies, if you want to see what the future has in store, look at this thread on how Easyjet are treating their cadets, with conditions bordering on legal slavery. Stay away from this industry, earn money doing something else and fly for fun.

I posted this (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/403407-what-bean-counters-really-think-pilots.html) back in January.
nt.pilot, tell us that you really want to join this "game" under the j* cadet model. You will be replaced after 3 years by the next sucker. This is now happening in Europe. FO's don't have their contracts renewed, yet the cadet schemes keep churning out new recruits. You will still owe the balance of your bond. These schemes are literally bankrupting current & former cadets. Don't believe me, read this thread about CTC (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/398854-easyjet-ctc-cadet-pilot-slavery-contract.html). Make no mistake, when they decide you are no longer useful (read "experienced") they will find some way to dump you. This is happening in Europe, and it will happen here.
The instant training becomes a revenue stream, there is every incentive to continue and expand it, and training is now a significant revenue stream. Where will that leave you?

[John Citizen]

Airline Transport Pilots Licence

On attaining their Airline Transport Pilots licence, the recipient will then be able to continue occupying the right hand seat. Now fully qualified & with appropriate licencing


Airline Transport Pilot Licence ? :confused:

I haven't got one, never had one and never plan to get one. I have been in command on multi-crew RPT operations in Australia as well as in the right hand seat of a jet airliner. :ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

Excellent post breakfastburrito. I do recall reading it previously, and then as now, I found astounding the level of arrogance from this particular Bean-Counter. He does acknowledge the illogical desperation of the naive wannabees are driving (and perhaps always have) the race to the bottom. Ironically, if the potential recipients of these corporate "rodgerings" actually followed his advice , and chose a different career, then his carefully laid plans for the future (or lack thereof) of the profession would come to naught!

It's all fairly academic though isn't it, because there will always be people like nt.pilot. :rolleyes:

[cloudsurfng]

Whilst I agree that this program is rubbish, and will place downward force on T's and C's, I think it is a little bit unfair to place the blame on anyone who accepts this deal. After all, who was that started the trend of accepting ridiculously low salaries in GA, in order to get those hours to get a jet job? The old buggers who these days are flying around in the left seat next to the 'wannabe's'. Perhaps if these guys had 'taken a stand' back then, as they are so quick to tell guys these days to do, people who work in GA wouldnt accept such poor conditions, and the airlines wouldn't be able to put downward pressure on the conditions they supply....

[j3pipercub]

I know what you mean , but why do you want to leave aviation? It would be hard/depressing to go from doing something like flying to sitting in an office all day....

Spoken by someone who has only ever flown in the daytime and 8/8ths blue I'd be willing to bet...

[Icarus2001]

but my understanding of the Jetstar EBA is that you would be paid as a Junior FO, ie around 55K, until you have a full, unfrozen ATPL with the required aeronautical experience.


How do they achieve 250 hours PIC?

[breakfastburrito]

How do they achieve 250 hours PIC?
ICUS, incoming....

[The Green Goblin]

http://www.jetstar.com/~/media/E9D95AAB78B74769AF67B5F7B7B8259B.ashx?h=140&w=334&as=1

This picture says it all really :yuk:

[b_sta]

:cool:

The resemblance is uncanny...

[j3pipercub]

I honestly thought GG, that you had google image searched 'w*nker pilot'. But no, it is actually on their website... Words fail me...

j3

[Mstr Caution]

JC,

In the context of my post, J* are using the trigger of attaining an ATPL to then pay the award conditions.

Prior to attaining the licence, one is considered a junior FO & paid less.

My post simply highlighted the fact, that there is no change to job description or duties only hours attained in the right hand seat as justification to paying less.

In essence a "B" for new FO's with less experience.