Bac/ Aerospatiale Concorde to fly again

[radioian]

GREAT news if its ok; BBC Ceefax page 109, today. An Air France machine. £15 million project to make her fly for heritage flypasts.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Also here: BBC News - Work starts in £15m plan to get Concorde flying (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8712806.stm)

[RETDPI]

I can't see it really being a practical proposition, let alone in the current economic climate.

[Wander00]

Head and heart in conflict again. I worked on two Concorde noses/visors at Marshalls, 69-70. I would LOVE to see Concorde in the air again, but 15M, £ or €, is a heck of a price to pay, recession or not. If someone has that much spare cash, put it into promoting aviation amongst the young, and especially general aviation.

[Dop]

While I'd love to see this happen, it is going to be a bigger money hole than the Vulcan, and launching a project which will need so much funding in the middle of a huge recession is a ludicrously enormous task!

[Vitesse]

From playing with old cars, I know that even a short layup can lead to all sorts of faults just from lack of use.

I assume it's the same with aircraft?

I shudder to think of the work required for something like Concorde.

Still like to see it flying, though.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Just be another bottomless pit for money, like a certain other triangular shaped object!

[JEM60]

Agree totally with HEATHROW DIRECTOR.
15million is only a start!!. Who is going to crew it, how many test flights at heaven knows what expense, how are the crew going to keep current as per a host of regulations, and, perhaps biggest expense of all, who the hell is going to insure it.
It's all very well for SCG to be hopeful, but, though I'd like to be proved wrong, they might as well p..s in the wind. Not a snowballs chance in hell in my opinion.
Whilst a wave of nostalgia is fine, sometimes things have to let go, and people must move on. Nothing lasts for ever, and I just hope the public doesn't throw money at it before it becomes the inevitable dead duck.
Sorry to be pessimistic, but then I had to eat my hat metaphorically when I said the Vulcan project would fail, which, of course, it may still do, despite some success. Concorde is a non-starter, a hugely technical beast, unlike the relatively simple Vulcan, so thumbs down from me, I'm afraid.Cheers from John, ex- Concorde passenger and current realist.

[zed3]

I was of the opinion that this possibility was officially no more. I also thought that all the spars had been cut through to prevent such a re-fly happening and that the c of a had been revoked on both sides of the channel. I had also heard that AFR had also kept one frame in reddiness to fly. La France perfide?

[Flypuppy]

Anyone got any further background on this story?
Work starts to get Concorde flying (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8712806.stm)

Apparently they want to get it flying for the opening ceremony of the Olympics.

The British group behind this is the Save Concorde Group (http://www.save-concorde.co.uk/) but I can't say I have ever heard of them.

[SpringHeeledJack]

Just be another bottomless pit for money, like a certain other triangular shaped object!

Well perhaps pleming can show them how it's done ? :E



SHJ

[henry crun]

Try here http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/416652-bac-aerospatiale-concorde-fly-again.html

[Flightmech]

Annex 2 Complex Category aircraft per chance?

[andrewmcharlton]

Don't suppose there is a soon to be ex-558 project director looking for a new "challenge"...

Might be just what is needed to to help the Vulcan secure its future:E

[Double Zero]

Shortly to be followed with flypasts by a Space Shuttle; they're retiring any time, so a 'going' one must be easy to pick up & maintain !

[Double Zero]

One can't help wondering " what's the point ? "

If aircraft enthusiasts don't see 4 glowing afterburners they're going to feel cheated, and it would be a huge amount of effort by ground & air crew just to roll a bit; and as others have commented, £15,million sounds like the tip of the iceberg.

If the French were holding the Olympics I might see a sort of point; 4 x Olympus etc.

I forget the names, Sir Stanley Hooker & his rival / chum from Bristol engines ( apologies, Gordon Lewis & Ralph Hooper are in the frame but I don't think the name I'm groping for - I'm sure JF could help ! ).

When the Olympus reached the same thrust in pounds as Mount Olympus in feet, he sent a postcard.

The reply was " how does the weight compare ?" .

[Pugilistic Animus]

this is an irrational and sentime tal statement but with every aircraft I feel we should keep at least one of each type airworthy...believe me govt's piss away more than the cost of ANY aircraft on complete nonsense...in NY they want to give everyone a penny for each cigarette butt they return:ugh:

[Double Zero]

P.A,

I agree with your sentiment to keep an airworthy example of interesting types flying, but the effort !!!

Sod the cost, I agree governments probably spend more on getting the perfect pen or seat...

Trouble is slippery shoulders leave the cost to the public; also I'd love to know how certain other major aircraft restoration projects funded their 'top' people from 'charity', while you and I actually have to work...

If funds were available, I'd much rather see, in NO order of merit;

Hustler

Voodoo

Lysander ( too rare & important for UK )

Valkyrie ( well there's one left, and that WOULD be a show-stopper ! )

SR-71

Short SAC 1

BS 188,

HP115,

FW190,

Heinkel 111,

Walrus,

Need I go on ?!

All more interesting than a trolley-dolly's wonderjet.

Now where do I go and wave a can whipping up funds ? Thought not.

DZ

[Ian Corrigible]

This doesn't instill confidence in the project: Save Concorde Group Vice Chairman bio (http://uk.linkedin.com/in/speedbird).

I/C

[Pugilistic Animus]

SR-71:(

Double Zero

Why'd you have to go do that? :{:{:{

[RETDPI]

Ian Corrigible:
No.





But it explains a lot..........

[Double Zero]

Ian C,

I'd love to think that 'biog' was a made up joke, but having dealt with Wart On and 'up North' types I sadly recognise it...so now thanks to them & a certain M.Thatcher our manufacturing industry is at best a ghost, at worst a joke.

We ( and the U.S. ) need to actually make things again - Harrier 2+ would be a good start, sod the company politics, we need them - also one suspects ships will be required, after a few years' lull the strategic world has suddenly gone mad..

[forget]

I'd love to think that 'biog' was a made up joke,

The sad, sad part is that it was produced by someone who claims an A Level in English. Makes you want to bl++dy weep. (No pedants!)

Ben Lord’s Interests: Outside of work, I am keenly interested in trucks and have been part of the Stobart Fan Club for several years. :p Additionally, I am very much connected to Concorde and in the run up to it's retirement, I was in complete awe of the plane and it's ability and impact on our country's heritage. I am also a keen driver of German cars and think Vorsprung durch Technik very much sums it up. For the last 2 years, I've managed to visit Australia 4 times and absolutely love the place.

[Double Zero]

So, put the idiot in a cannon facing vaguely towards Germany; on his way down he can interface with all the Durch Sprung Technik ( Gotterdamerung, viss Computer has a Vill of it's own ! ) he likes as he descends.

[DeepestSouth]

Double Zero,

Thread drift but:

There is an airworthy Lysander at Old Warden and at least one other overseas - Canada, I think

There are a few FW190s around including a D, but all FlugWerke ones I think. There is apparently an original airworthy one (in the USA?) but it is too rare and precious to risk.

I think that a recent FlyPast also reported on a well-advanced project to bring a HE111 back into the air, albeit an ex-Spanish Air Force one as used in the BofB film.

There are also, of course, the new-build Me262s from Seattle

Personally, if I'd lots of Euro lottery cash I'd throw it:

1. Getting a Mosquito up there again (even though there are 3 planned to get airborne in the next year or so).
2. Getting another DH 88 Comet up there
3. .. and a Beaufighter
4. .. and going to Reno to see the MB5 replica make it to the skies

ah well - I can dream

[Dr Jekyll]

Pity there's no chance of a Hornet, but a replica with the right engines would do.

There was a project to build a replica HP42 but it seems to have fizzled out.

[RETDPI]

There was a project to build a replica HP42 but it seems to have fizzled out.

Funnily enough I was going to suggest this in my first post as a more sensible use of 16 million pounds to promote an appreciation of U.K. aviation heritage. One idea in the 80's was to use it as a flying "orient express' . The late Ray Hilborne was sure it could be certificated based on the original HP work. Like the H.P. 0/400 project dreamed of in the late 60's early 70's - perhaps a good idea looking for a backer?

[chopper2004]

BBC News - Work starts in £15m plan to get Concorde flying (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8712806.stm) :ok:

[brooksjg]

What about the one I imagined I saw parked up at LHR? :confused:

[maxred]

About time too. Hope the CAA are in the loop:bored:

[AndoniP]

Isn't that the Air France one? F-BTSD?

Concorde to taxi under her own power again? - Main Discussion area - Discussion Areas - Concorde SST - Message Board (http://concordesst.yuku.com/topic/4366/t/Concorde-to-taxi-under-her-own-power-again.html?page=1)

[Edgar Jessop]

Are there any design authority issues that would stop this happening or could it be done on a permit to fly system similar to other historic aircraft?

[Whiskey Papa]

Idea already being hacked to pieces in history & nostalgia

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/416652-bac-aerospatiale-concorde-fly-again.html

WP

:o(

[raffele]

The search feature is a wonderful thing! This is already being discussed here:

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/404287-any-airworthy-concorde-left-2.html

[Double Zero]

All the above mentioned aircraft would be a delight to see again; I had my moment with Concorde when, in the right hand seat of our 'hack' Dove for a jolly, Heathrow ATC let us know there was one taking off beneath us, aiming West of course.

A lovely sight, for once silent to us ( I'd rushed back to the cabin to tell my chums, we were all returning from a Harrier trial at West Freugh ) - we must be one of the select few who've looked down on a Concorde in flight !

I'm aware of the various restoration projects including Lysander, that and the Beaufighter seem particularly appealing to me; if there's £15million going spare, I'm sure a lot of such projects would be very happy with a small portion...

While I'm banging my drum, I do hope the Indian Navy have the sense to keep an FRS52 ( Sea Harrier FRS1 look-alike ) for posterity.

I know they're being modified, but hopefully it won't change their external appearance much; and when I was lucky enough to work with them, they showed a lot more common sense & less 'traditional' BS than the RN.

We could then see a proper Sea Harrier 1, maybe even flying !

No offence to Art Nalls, who's doing a great job with our ex-development jet, XZ439; it will be interesting to see what records he establishes.

The HP42 would be wonderful, and possibly could make some revenue from passengers ?

I'd be in the queue, though god knows what red tape would be involved.

[andrewmcharlton]

Presumeably this Walt will want to start a new airline flying from Oxford to Tees Valley and back to London City whilst he is on, as is seemingly the way of the Walt.

[ab33t]

I think it is the French one. Still good news

[dilldog01]

£15m isn't going to do diddly :ugh:

[JEM60]

Brooksjg, This is G- BOAB at Heathrow, that I had the pleasure of being on the flightdeck in flight on one occasion. It was not upgraded after the Air France accident. There are possible plans to exhibit it next to the London Eye in an exhibition to show off British achievements etc., Whether or not this plan comes to fruition only time will tell.

[Double Zero]

Which Walt are you referring to, the chap with a dream of making an HP42 ?

It would take a lot of effort, but the technology is certainly there !

It's just a matter of money; as the racing car driver ( Craig X ? ) and the chap in "Mad Max' put it, 'speed is just a matter of money, how fast do you want to go ?!"

I'd be quite happy to trundle around in a HP42, and see the scenery rather than in a Concorde.

Walt's are berks who pretend to be ex-miltary with illustrious careers; this chap at most offensive would be called an optimistic dreamer.

[JEM60]

The 'Walt' you are referring to in respect of the HP42 was not a 'Walt' at all!!. He was a respected Aviator, Mike Russell, of Russavia, who flew and rebuilt Dragon Rapides, if if my memory serves me correctly. Been deceased for a few years now. Bit more respect, perhaps

[SpeedbirdUK]

If you ask me, AB needs to remain at Heathrow in the same capacity as that of it's French counterpart in Charles de Gaulle!

[fdcg27]

This was a remarkable aircraft for what it could do, using early 'sixties technology to boot.
Imagine Mach 2 or so with a hundred souls aboard.
She will never fly again.
The sucessors to her builders, the two airlines who bought her, as well as the British and French regulators have made sure of that.
Still, it would be wonderful if there could be but one flying example of this amazing transport.

[avionic type]

Oh dear ,does all this mean they will want all the spares that B.A. gave to Brooklands to rebuild DG back again , that would be embarassing the jury strut undercarraige will have to be refitted and all the entry steps shortened it will not be a pretty sight with all the interior and flt deck removed also. :eek::eek::eek:

[RETDPI]

I don't think such a well qualified and proven aircraft designer/constructor such as Ray Hilborne would ever have been taken in by a "walt" either. Many of the hurdles towards passenger carrying certification by a new H.P. 42 ( albeit with different radials) had been considered and appraised.
IIRC the total cost at the time ( early 1980's) was estimated at around 3 million pounds.

[andrewmcharlton]

My remark about a Walt was a flippant comment about the wannabe Concorde operator not anyone else !!

[JEM60]

Sorry. Andrew. Mis-interpreted.:uhoh: Anyone seen a Vulcan lately???

[ChristiaanJ]

Wasn't one of the major stumbling blocks for XH558 caused by Roll Royce insisting on the use of "zero hour" engines?MiG15, I think you got that story the wrong way round.....
Rolls Royce, at the time, no longer had any facilities to do major overhauls on Olympus engines .... any Mark.
Some of the more interesting doc had been moved to the "Heritage Archive" (?), but that was it.
Also the Concorde engine overhaul had already moved to GE in Wales.

What made XH558 possible was that she arrived at Brunty with eight 'zero-hour' engines, so there was enough engine life potential for the project, before too many would need a major teardown, which Rolls Royce clearly stated they could no longer do.

Just how many suitable engines exist for Concorde?Good question... next question?
I did a quick back-of-the-envelope count yesterday, by chance.

If everybody would be willing to "chip in" and donate their engines, there'd probably be something like 20 to 30 salvageable engines still in existence (meaning some of the parts can be recovered).
So there's probably still enough around to rebuild two and even four engines capable of ground running.

Of course, there's no longer anybody in Europe capable of doing this... on the other side of the Atlantic, maybe.

Oh, I forget.... engines is only the start of the story.
Who's going to pay for tearing out the fuel system (nicely dried out by now), refurbishing the electrics, the electronics?

Still, it's a nice dream... but it's slowly becoming a nightmare for the people that really take care of the museum aircraft, to have these "relight and taxy" clowns about...

CJ

[hurn]

What made XH558 possible was that she arrived at Brunty with eight 'zero-hour' engines,Errr, no it didn't and certainly not already installed in the airframe.
I think Taff Stone got them from RAF Cosford? and they were sealed in bags.

I pretty certain that RR only gave their consent for support as they were zero timed and sealed.

[ChristiaanJ]

Errr, no it didn't and certainly not already installed in the airframe.
I think Taff Stone got them from RAF Cosford? and they were sealed in bags.hurn,
I think we're probably saying exactly the same thing.
The engines installed on XH558 were obviously not zero-life, and they were also used for taxi runs.
By the time 'Vulcan To The Sky' got underway, RR no longer had the means to give those particular engines a major overhaul, to assure enough engine life was available for the project.
It was that other set of eight engines, moth-balled, bagged, inerted, that made it feasible.
I don't know whether they arrived with the other spares or were found and delivered separately.
I pretty certain that RR only gave their consent for support as they were zero timed and sealed.Again, I don't know exactly how much support RR could and did give.
The main issue was, that RR could no longer do a major teardown and overhaul, and "re-zero-life" any of the engines, so once the existing engine life was used up, that was it.
VTS reckoned that with the eight "as-new" engines they could fly long enough to make the project worthwhile, before having to retire the engine to a museum.

Let's hope they were right!

CJ