Bing-bong "This is your captain/flight attendant/whoever..." [Archive]

CornishFlyer

25th May 2010, 18:12

I don't want to be told how to fasten my seat belt - it's blindingly obvious.

You'd like to think so wouldn't you? I had a pax just a couple of months ago that had tied the ends of his belt up in a rather loose single knot instead of using the buckle

Why are we instructed to do this and do that and "wait until the seat belt sign is extinguished", and all the rest of this ritual of rubbish we have to put up with day after day.

Surely this is blindingly obvious. Again, I had another incident whereby we had just got off of the ground and one of the pax decided to stand up to get his bag out of the locker however as we were still climbing at a very steep rate, said muppet got taken unaware by a change in attitude from the climb and ended up falling to the floor with his head missing the headrest by mere centimetres

I don't want to watch another lifejacket demonstration. I think I've got the idea now.

For a start it's actually a safety demonstration . It contains a lot more than just the lifejackets. Anyhow, there is an airline that operates out of your local airport (assuming your residence is that of what it states as your location) that actually uses 2 types of lifejacket. How are you going to know which variety it is without this demonstration

Maybe some airlines and certain crew members in both sections of the aircraft that do like their own voices but you'll get those sort of people all over the place. It does however seem that you have overlooked a few points and there are real reasons why things are said and done and even YOU should still watch the safety demo

Safe flying

Hartington

25th May 2010, 19:29

I'm a passenger.

Maybe there are several slightly different subjects here.

I have no problem with the safety demonstration. I've flown on all sorts of aircraft and even when they are (nominally) the same (think Boeing 737) there are a number of detail differences that I like to know about. Quite apart from differences in the base airframe, airline fit can make a difference to your escape routes.

Then there are what I'll call the "en route safety annoucements". Things like "We think we're going to encounter turbulence ....." and "we're beginning our approach.....". I consider them in the same vein as the safety briefing. Some airlines seem to be ultra cautious and spew them out with monotonous frequency while others are more relaxed but that's life.

The ones I do sometimes get frustrated by are the various service announcements. Are there people who like the sound of their own voice? Possibly. But I'm inclined to feel that much of what comes in the form of service announcements is "company policy" (there must be a welcome from the flight deck - I remember one pilot telling me he was sent on a training course so that he could deliver the message the way the company wanted) or "government requirement" (e.g. "we're going to hand out immigration forms") and some airlines look upon such announcements as an advertising or revenue opportunity whilst others take a more informational view. I've never been totally pi..ed off by such announcements but occasionally I find myself wishing they wouldn't be quite so long winded.

So, korrol, if you don't like the annoucements write to the airline and tell them which ones you think they should stop and why.

slash1417

25th May 2010, 19:55

I think it's a cool thing to get bored by the sight of a boring ritual, but after all it is a "ritual" and has to be done perfectly for everyone's sake on that plane. I don't even think the flight attendants enjoy themselves while showing how to fasten seat belts and the captain loves the sweet melody of his voice.Some info must be given to passengers,it's not a simple bus trip ,come on!

And finally this post with this title can get no sympathy from the cockpit and cabin crew.

TightSlot

25th May 2010, 19:57

I've moved this here from the CC Forum. I simply can't be bothered to explain to the OP why his/her post is both arrogant and misguided - maybe you can: Or maybe you'll agree with him. Either way, this kind of stuff is what makes all of us mods wonder why we bother to do this.

paulthornton

25th May 2010, 19:59

The psychology of crowds and crowds in confined spaces is worth a study. Even with a briefing surprisingly few passengers will look around for the nearest exit, as do few rock fans in an arena, so there is a need for some information being fed to the passengers.

At the risk of taking the thread off at a tangent, why is this? Is it just a psychological "I came in that door, so that is the only door I can leave through?" issue if exposed to the stress in an evac situation?
I'd expect that the first-time fliers would respond to the request to "look for your nearest exit which may be behind you" as it was a new and unknown situation and they are paying attention. At the other extreme, I'd expect that the regular fliers would have a quick glance as they know the drill and would want to have an idea where said exit was.

I appreciate that I'm not normal in these regards (some friends might say in any regards :}) as although I'm not a particularly frequent flier compared to some here, I ensure that I keep in my pockets the essential stuff I'd like to go down the slide with.

(The original thread moved whilst I was typing this - and I appreciate the comments re: the original question - but there is potentially an interesting human factors discussion here. Maybe... Perhaps...)

Paul.

flyblue

25th May 2010, 20:06

I'm not entirely sure that korrol is not trolling us. I'll pretend he's not, because all the long of my career I've heard presumptuous passengers thinking they know all (infallibility), they don't have anything to learn from others (egocentrism), nothing's gonna happen to them (invulnerability), so why should they change? (rigidity).

As you see these attitudes are well known and have all been studied. Their result is invariably someone getting hurt sooner or later. In the past, before the Human Factors breakthrough, even people working for the airlines used to think that way, and procedures were designed with enormous flaws in them. When accidents happened, they were consequently studied and corrections could be made. We still learn from incidents and accidents, fine tuning our knowledge of how the human mind works in certain situations and environments. Because this is the point. Understanding how our mind works, because in a situation of emergency we cannot trust it unless we know how not to fall in all the traps laying in front of us. Our reactions have been designed in thousands and thousands years to respond to situations arising in our environment at the times. Which means, not in airplanes, not in skyscrapers or such. Today, there are high chances you'll get yourself killed if someone doesn't point you to the right actions to take. Crews are taught how to direct people into doing the right thing, through knowledge of their environment, procedures and Crowd Control techniques.

What is very important to understand, is that if you are not a professional in our industry, you are very likely to be extremely ignorant without having even the slightest clue how ignorant you are about how it works and why it works that way.

It would be too long to expand here, but for those interested about the subject, I suggest a book that is very easy to understand even for the layman, and very enjoyable. It is called The Untinkable, by Amanda Ripley.

vanHorck

25th May 2010, 20:06

I have worked for over 10 years in crowd management.

Years ago many people died in a ballroom in Belgium. Fire had broken out and people finally tried to leave the way they came in, many did not make it.

What a shame, the ballroom was on the ground floor and there were many windows....:ugh:

There are countless stories like that. People have a false sense of security in a plane or in an arena and so drop their guard. When the :mad: hits the fan it's too late, they'll head for the door they came in through.

Only pointing out the other exits helps.

HamishMcBush

25th May 2010, 20:08

Maybe it's time to perform phsychiatric testing on potential passengers to see if they are fit to fly as passengers. I'm SLF and have flown very regularly in the past, and only aboout 4 return journeys per year now, but I have yet to hear an unnecessary broadcast by a member of the Flight Crew. Safety first, especially in an unfamiliar environment

The Darkness

25th May 2010, 20:24

I think you'll find that it's legislated/written in regulations that the Cabin Crew make those demonstrations.

Much like other signs, literature, etc in society, everyone has to cater to the "lowest common denominator".

As someone else mentioned, there are many people on most flights that ARE interested in where they are, how long to go, the weather etc.

You're probably that person that continues to talk on your mobile phone after doors closed, even though it's been said several times to turn it off. But I suppose YOUR call is THE most important.

The Darkness

ExXB

25th May 2010, 20:29

No comment on the OP's post but;

I just watched four BA videos, over the last 11 days on two Aircraft types. (A&B).

Why is the bit about having the your hand baggage in the locker or under your seat, towards the end of the video? We were already taxiing by the time we saw that, and (correct me if I'm wrong) we aren't suppose to taxi if all pax's baggage hasn't been stowed.

Same with the seatbelt bit - we're already rolling, so isn't this a bit late?

Realise that the video (or non-video) demonstration could be done before pushback, but that isn't the norm these days. So why tell us afterwards what we should have done previously?

Also realise that it's probably not permitted by the CAA's version of 'elf and safety, but why not show that video at the gate? Sure beats that awful Sky-News stuff. And it would inform us of what we are supposed to do before we do it, not after.

flyblue

25th May 2010, 20:31

Interesting point Hamish. Stress is quite common in passengers, especially if something is happening that they don't understand. And believe me, this even covers a lot of normal stuff that happens in an aircraft but that is perceived as worrying and subsequently stressing by a large number (hydraulic pumps noise, change of levels in flight, etc). And when people are stressed there are more chances they'll do something not very clever and not adapted to the actual situation.

There are three main factors of stress, whic are 1)facing an unknown situation 2) Not knowing how it is evolving and how it's gonna last 3) Not being able to take action.

Information from the crew stops the mechanism of stress, simply by explaining 1) what the present situationis is, 2)how it is likely gonna last and what is being done to solve it 3) that you can help by doing nothing and let the crew do whatever they're doing and not divert their attention from their tasks.
What might seem "simple" announcements, actually are Crowd Control at work :)

rgsaero

25th May 2010, 20:50

Oh Dear Korrol! The tone of your post suggests to me that you are both impatient and intolerant, but seeing yourself as an "expert" frequent flier you should not be subject to a number of sensible - nay essential - safety briefings which are devised to ensure that EVERYONE on the aircraft knows what to do in normal and emergency circumstances,

Now, as I'm over 70 and with some experience of air travel I listen carefully every time, as every a/c is different. My "experience" started in 1951 and I'm still a frequent flier. (First outing was in 1951 LHR to Singapore in a BOAC Constellation and return in an Argonaut. Later for 30 years averaged about 150 sectors a years thru' most of Europe, Asia, Japan, South and North America in everything from 707s, Tridents, DC9s, 727s, 73s, 74s, 75s, 77s, a couple of Concordes across the pond, etc, etc etc).

I still listen EVERY time! Not least because every carrier can be different. And the last thing I want is some T????R who thinks he knows it all getting in the way when I need to get out in an emergency!

So - shut up and listen for everyone else's benefit even if you do "know-it-all".

Perhaps you are a troll......

13Alpha

25th May 2010, 20:59

The BA strike raises an interesting question. Is it time for a root and branch change to the time-honoured rituals performed by flight-deck and cabin crew before they just get on with what they're supposed to do and take us where we've paid to go?

No.

13Alpha

Sir Herbert Gussett

25th May 2010, 21:20

If you're a PPL like your profile says then I hope you give your passengers a safety breifing before showing off your flying "abilities", which I hope aren't the same as your IGNORANCE.

If you don't want to listen to my cabin crew give IMPORTANT safety information, or don't want to listen to me advising of turbulence and my welcome message, THEN DO NOT GET ON MY FLIGHT.

I don't want to fly people around that think they know it all... I want everyone, that boards my aircraft, to be made fully aware of all safety information. Until you have a sensible attitude towards safety do not bother getting on any my flights.

SHG.

BRUpax

25th May 2010, 21:50

I'm just surprised that any of you bothered to answer this idiotic thread. Had the post remained at 0 replies the O/P would have got the message loud and clear. You've made him happy instead.

flyblue

25th May 2010, 21:59

BRUpax, you'd be surprised how many people think the same, and how many times we heard variations of it.

I believe that it is not very useful to label a question "idiotic" and not answer it. What is useful is to answer the question and dissipate doubts. Only understanding will bring a change in behaviour.

matthewsjl

25th May 2010, 22:09

It's been a while since I flew in the UK under CAA regs (been in the USA for six years) but it was my interpretation that whatever craft you fly, it's up to the PIC to ensure that a safety brief is carried out. Here in the US, you have to make pax aware of the seat belt operation and exits/methods of egress.

In the case of an airline, the safety brief is delegated to the cabin crew - but it's mandatory to my understanding.

I always try to pay attention during the briefing (even though I've heard it many times before). It's just being respectful of the crew who are trying to do their job.

What always amuses me are the people who settle in and remove their shoes straight away.... they've obviously never considered that they might need them on to get over broken bits of aircraft (that may be on fire) in a takeoff emergency.

John.

James 1077

25th May 2010, 22:39

The answer isn't to get rid of the safety bits at the beginning - just to make them fun to watch and informative.

Air NZ got the balance right for their domestic briefing:

7-Mq9HAE62Y

Chuchinchow

25th May 2010, 22:48

If the OP does not like the various messsages broadcast in the course of a commercial flight he/she could remember what they say here in Jersey:

"There is always a boat in the morning"!

PAXboy

25th May 2010, 23:41

Korrol as you have been a member of PPRuNe for 15 months, I must presume that you have read the FAQs and searched for previous threads of this topic?

Your profile states that, as well as being PPL, you work as a 'Manager'. When you are being a passenger/customer of an airline, they are Managing you. All of the crew manage the whole flight, hardware, software and the pink squidgy-ware that have asked to be transported from A to B.

When you are managing people, you do so with a number of reasons, what your own manager tells you to do, what any regulatory authority tells you (fire precautions etc.) and then your own wealth of experience in the job. That experience will tell you what the majority of your customers are like and the kind of guidance they need. Unless, of course, you only manage THINGS and not people.

Lastly, just because flying is statistically so safe, ask the families of the folks on these flights - all details from the main R&N forum:
Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
AF 447 (OK, no survivors but there might have been)
Air India Express B738
BA038 (B777)
Cockpit Fire Diverts UA 757 to IAD

Di_Vosh

25th May 2010, 23:58

Korrol is clearly a troll... :hmm:

PAXboy

26th May 2010, 00:01

I hope that Korrol is a troll but the thread is still useful for future enquiries of a similar nature!

TRX75

26th May 2010, 00:36

A former US Secretary of Defense once said (although in an entirely different context)
......there are known "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.His words were widely mocked as gibberish at the time IIRC - mainly by journalists - you know - those people whose business is words! - but I've found it to be a good philosophy to live by in my life.
It may happen that one day, right after that bing-bong, you get to know something you didn't know you didn't know....and it could possibly save your life in a sticky situation.

etrang

26th May 2010, 00:38

Of course there are good reasons for the safety announcements, but the OP has raised a valid issue. Are the current proceedures the best way to do them - as has been pointed out many people just ignore them because they are so repetitive, its shouldn't be impossible to improve the system.

Bealzebub

26th May 2010, 01:34

Why do cabin crew and flight crew love the sound of their own dreary voices so much? Most don't. In fact it is often something of a nuisance to have to address passengers when the very short interval between the last of them boarding, and the completion of checks, is all constrained by the need to get the aircraft moving in order to comply with slots, and avoid lengthy delays that inconvenience everybody. However there are legal requirements that fall to the captain of a flight and in turn to the crew to ensure that passengers are properly and adequately briefed. It would be quicker to say, "listen carefully because your life might depend on this in a few minutes." However it is deemed more sensible to adopt a low key, more professional, and courteous approach. Whether you like it or not, and that takes a little more time.

Why are we instructed to do this and do that and "wait until the seat belt sign is extinguished", and all the rest of this ritual of rubbish we have to put up with day after day.

Because the regulatory authority places a a statutory requirement on us to ensure that these things are both briefed and complied with. In addition it also provides us with the necessary defence to your potential legal counsels claims of negligence when you subsequently suffer loss or injury by failing to comply with these requirements.

I don't want to watch another lifejacket demonstration. I think I've got the idea now.
I don't want to be told how to fasten my seat belt - it's blindingly obvious.

No, I don't want to have to deliver another take off safety briefing to my co-pilot, but I do. The reason is, because it refreshes information that needs to be in the short term memory in the event of an emergency. You might be surprised to learn that the biggest single impediment to evacuation is people failing to release their seatbelts. Why, if it so blindingly obvious? The answer is, that in times of severe stress the brain adopts a survival (fight or flight) mode. During that time it tends to shut down superficial reasoning and memory. This results in primary reaction relying on what is in the short term memory (hence the pre-flight briefing) and what is deeply instinctive. In the case of the latter, what is instinctive to most people regarding seatbelts, are the ones they have in their cars. They fasten at the side of the seat, which is where poorly briefed people will often spend an inordinate amount of time looking for the release. It is therefore important that the short term memory is effective in overriding the instinctive response, and this is best achieved by a briefing shortly before the event, that is listened to and understood.

As for lifejackets, in my company we have 6 different types of lifejacket. Some are specifically for adults, some for children, some for both adults and children and some for infants. It is crucially important that you know when and when not to inflate them. Likewise where to find them. Again this needs to be ingrained in your short term memory, not remembered vaguely from your last flight.

I don't need to be reminded to read the safety card - we know how to evacuate the aircraft -

Well, those of us that practice it on a regular basis, know that every evacuation is likely to be different and that we can never know how an aircraft will actually be evacuated until that actual emergency occurs. However if you search youtube, I am sure you will find plenty of videos of real evacuations where the "know it all -yawn" passenger has decided to evacuate with his luggage, which then spills at the bottom of the slide and impedes the exit path. You know how to evacuate the aircraft, means you have re-briefed yourself (the safety card) and watched and listened prior to take off.

in reality it's every man for himself and the devil take the hindmost. Clutching his briefcase no doubt! In fact an effective evacuation requires common sense, teamwork, and informed people. Teamwork isn't just from the crew, it comes from the passengers as well. Obviously they don't spend days every year practicing and testing these procedures, so it is important that they have a short term memory refresher, and basic knowledge prior to every take-off. What you have described is likely to result in additional casualities, and is the likely result of the selfish ill informed and poorly briefed individual.

And I really don't give a damn what the name is of the captain of the plane - any more than I care who the driver is of my intercity train.
So why don't the cabin crew and flight crew do us all a favour and shut up? Great, because we don't want a Christmas card from you. We just want you to listen and try and contribute to the overall safety of the operation. In order to comply with the legislative requirement of our charges, we have to communicate. That can't be done by shutting up. Communication is the key tool to safety in our profession and if we fail to provide the best level of safety that is practical, we are not doing you a favour at all.

I realize that your post is so ill informed, selfish and moronic in content, that it must have been made simply to elicit the predicted response. Nevertheless it is a good springboard for reminding people why we do these seemingly repetitive communications, and why they are so important. Obviously the vast majority of passengers already know much of this, but like yourself there is always the odd one that doesn't.

Whilst it is clearly tempting to say that you can adopt your own stance and burn in your seat for all anyone cares, the truth is that we are all charged with a moral and legal responsibility to ensure that doesn't happen. Likewise none of us would want to live with the thought that somebody had needlessly perished on our flight, even if they were selfish or a complete moron!

(Bing-Bong!)

Pohutu

26th May 2010, 05:09

Despite the tone of the OP, I think it has usefully raised the question of how best to get safety information to passengers. I try hard to listen to the safety briefing, but the modern airport experience tends to turn my brain to cream cheese, so I find I do sometimes miss bits.

Bealzebub said

It would be quicker to say, "listen carefully because your life might depend on this in a few minutes." However it is deemed more sensible to adopt a low key, more professional, and courteous approach.

This is a tough one. A low key approach full of euphemisms ('in the unlikely event of a landing over water') will prevent panic amongst the passengers in relation to a very unlikely event. But it doesn't give people a reason to pay attention. Scaring the bejaysus out of them - 'if the plane crashes, we'd like to help get as many of you out alive as possible' - might just get some attention.

Or perhaps airlines need to find some way of getting passengers involved in the process. How about a scratchcard with the locations of the emergency exits on, with one winner per flight?

Torque2

26th May 2010, 08:30

Korrol..PPL..Likes flying and sailing and is a manager. Are you any good at any of the those things? Do you perform checklists thoroughly, have you read the manual for your aircraft type (more than once perhaps?), keep up to date with the constantly changing notams etc, do you wear a lifejacket whilst sailing and perhaps brief your crew/passengers on safety and as a manager do you keep your staff constantly informed of whats going on?...It wouldn't seem so with the nature of your comments.

The reason that things are done at the times that they are, such as the emergency briefing on board instead of in the lounge allows for last minute passengers to be included, also that it is the Captains responsibility to have that information on safety passed to the passengers before take-off. His responsibility to the passengers begins when he is on board and finally when the doors close.

As has been mentioned it is a constant battle to keep passengers in the safety loop as it seems that short term memory is stowed with the baggage for example the passenger getting out of his seat atan unsafe/inappropriate time, also happens just before touchdown! Perhaps you may say that this is best left to the passenegrs own initiative but litigation gets in the way so CYA! and prevent injury to others by these unconsidered actions.

If there are too may service announcements, and I admit that sometimes there may be, let the company know in writing otherwise they are unaware and nothing gets changed.

It appears that the OP just doesn't give a toss for anyone elses responsibilities just 'don't tell me anything, I know it all and can't be a£$ed understanding or conforming'. Unfortunately aviation isn't like that. :rolleyes:

korrol

26th May 2010, 08:45

Just for everyone to know, I'm no troll - in fact I'm not even sure I know what the term means.

I initiated this discussion because I'd just got off a short over-water flight with my ears ringing from the proliferation of live and pre-recorded cabin crew and flight crew announcements emanating from the loudspeaker above my head.

Of course I understand that the safety stuff is a statutory requirement but remember we SLF have already suffered a barrage of announcements and instructions inside the airport before even boarding the plane. The final one on landing enjoining us to "fly again" with the airline is often the last straw. Yesterday, if I had actually waited "until the seat-belt sign is extinguished" I'd still be on the damn plane . As it was I was the last one off . Everyone else had disembarked but it was never turned off .

Anyway I've written separately to TightSlot because, if I have overstepped the boundaries of what's permissible here, I wanted to apologise. It's his thread and his house and we are just guests - so it's entirely right he should expect us to abide by his rules and apologise if, occasionally, we overstep the mark. Sorry if I offended anyone and thanks for your most interesting comments.

The SSK

26th May 2010, 08:57

‘Since this is an overland flight this aircraft does not carry life jackets, thereby saving weight, fuel, cost and environmental impact. It also allows us to shorten this safety briefing, to your benefit as well as ours’

LCA Bound

26th May 2010, 09:54

I am a semi regular flyer and as of yet giving a smartly dressed attractive young lady my undivided attention for a few minutes at the beginning of a flight has yet to become a chore (slightly non PC answer I know but honest)

PAXboy

26th May 2010, 10:28

Korrol Your reply is appreciated. :ok: For future info:

Wikipedia: Troll (Internet), an internet term for a person who wilfully, through obscene, offensive or hateful actions (a.k.a. "trolling"), attempts to disrupt a community or garner reactions, attention and controversy.

radeng

26th May 2010, 10:37

I flew on BA yesterday to Nice. Found it very annoying that two of the suited business class pax were busy talking to each other all through the safety demo, and paying no attention at all. Like several others here, I always pay attention - it's only polite. But the kid dropping the rabbit every time on the BA video is annoying - instead of picking it up, she should bash the little b***** round the ear!

NWA SLF

26th May 2010, 14:08

I have flown over 1,000 legs over the years and the only time the safety announcement bothers me is when I cannot hear it due to a shoddy PA system. If I cannot hear the safety announcement, how could I be expected to hear if an emergency arose? I was reminded how even my subconscious is listening when on the 4th leg of a flight from Denver to somewhere in Montana a flight attendent (who had to go through the same saftey statement despite loading no new passengers at the last stop) came on and suggested we look out at dotted row of lights we were flying over marking the Wyoming Montana border. Darned if I didn't fall for it and look out the window before realizing the joke and throwing my plastic glass at the attendent. If the safety announcement bothers you, find another form of transportation - walk, swim, whatever.

lowcostdolly

26th May 2010, 14:23

Korrol you did come across as attacking CC and flight deck in your post and there is no doubt about that. You also came across as ignorant and arrogant in relation to safety.....not a good perception on these forums :uhoh:

However PPrune is somewhere I often let off steam because, as CC, I'm actually not allowed to do it onboard however bad my sector/day is. To me PPrune a safe place....

Sometimes my fingers representing my mouth on here are in motion long before my brain is fully engaged :eek: I too have been accused of "trollling" because of this. Thanks to Paxboy here for also informing me of what this term actually means means :ok:

A perspective for you from the other side as I see you are located in BRS and did a short flight......you may have done this with my mob.

Our Captains, without exception, want to get the SLF safely from A to B so to that end they will introduce the flightcrew by name and then remind you Guys of the importance of listening to the CC safety brief. If something comes up during flight they will then reinforce this i.e turbulence. Despite this we still see the muppets who think they not only know better than the CC but also the Captain!! := The company will therefore cover it's back against said muppetts I'm afraid by repeated safety announcements.

I do sypathise with you re the sales announcements however.....they are never ending and as CC if we don't do them to increase ancillary revenue a highly paid mystery shopper who may be on board will report us to our management and as the SCCM I will be called in for a "chat" with management.

The FR ones are the worst.....that damn fanfare :ugh:

Write to the airline if you are dissatisfied.

bizdev

26th May 2010, 14:45

I must admit I have some sympathy with Korrol - I fly a lot with the Low Cost Carriers and you are bombarded with anouncements:

buy our alcoholic shots
buy our scratch cards
buy our train tickets
buy our imitation cigarettes
coming through the cabin with duty free
coming through the cabin with food and drink
coming through the cabin with rubbish collectionIt goes on and on ..... and then Tarrrraaaaaahhhhhh - we have arrived ahead of schedule......

I now plug my headphones into the IPOD after the safety briefing and keep my seat belt fastened and my eyes closed.

As an aside - a few years ago I flew from Stansted to Manchester on Air Berlin - the safety announcement was in German and not repeated in English. Now I know this was a German carrier buy it was on a UK domestic route - was this Legal?

bizdev

Avman

26th May 2010, 15:04

As an aside - a few years ago I flew from Stansted to Manchester on Air Berlin - the safety announcement was in German and not repeated in English. Now I know this was a German carrier buy it was on a UK domestic route - was this Legal?

That surprises me. I fly Air Berlin (on non-UK) routes and have always heard all announcements in German and English, including anything the Captain or F/O had to say. Additionally, a taped announcement is made in the language of the destination/departure country. What may have thrown you is that where the safety briefing is made they tend to make it progressively in both languages.

The SSK

26th May 2010, 15:11

I had a pal who years ago flew on an Air France flight (might have been Air Inter, but in any case it was the national carrier) from Strasbourg to Paris, it was operated by a Monarch wet-lease and all announcements were in English only.

I bet that went down well with Chauvin's compatiots.

bizdev

26th May 2010, 15:23

Although I'm SLF I am also a Licenced Aircraft Engineer so I am always very observant of Airline operations - especially when I fly with a carrier that I had not flown before with.

I had not flown with Air Berlin before and have not done so since, but I am 100% sure that the safety briefing was only in German (pre-recorded if I recall) and not repeated in English. I cannot remember the flight deck anouncements.
Must have been an oversight? :confused:

bizdev

lowcostdolly

26th May 2010, 15:27

Guys the safety demo is legally required to be given in the language of the aircraft's registration. So if it's Air Berlin it will be given in German (wherever they are) and if it a Monarch plane it will be given in english and so it goes on....

That said most loco's who are officially "pan european" carriers will also do an announcement in the languages applicable to that flight also....time permitting.

At my lot the foreign tape is usually played whilst the doors are armed prior to push back and the english ones with the actions on pushback/taxi at LGW.

This may be modified downroute if we have a short taxi. We have to give an english demo wherever we are :ok:

bizdev

26th May 2010, 15:45

Thanks for the clarification although I am somewhat supprised that the legal requirement is only for the country of registration. As this was an internal UK flight then clearly the safety briefing would have only reached those that could understand German - how can that be safe?

bizdev

lowcostdolly

26th May 2010, 15:59

Bizdev I asked exactly the same thing on one of my SEP courses as I totally know what you mean here.

The answer given to me here was along the lines of

if you choose that carrier then it is assumed you understand the language of that carrier.

I'm not sure if that is the view of ICAO or of that individual trainer at the time. :hmm: I do know this is the legal position though.

My own personal view is that english (however lazy we undoubtably are) is the official and universal language of aviation so we should all be delivering a brief in this language wherever our airline is registered as well as the native language of the countries concerned. To me that would be best practice.

I don't suppose ICAO care what LCD thinks though!

Octopussy2

27th May 2010, 13:00

I like the announcements from the flight deck because it reassures me someone up the front is awake... ;)

SeLFish_Flyer

28th May 2010, 12:38

Indeed, I am a frequent flyer. Used to travel shorthaul once a week for 2 years, and long haul every few months.
Every single time I paid (and still do) full attention to the safety briefing and ALWAYS checked nearest exit, even counted the rows of seats in each direction. Why would anyone think they know it all regardless of how many times they have flown.
I did always join in the with BMi briefing though "place each hand behind your head, put your head on the back of the seat in front of you (or whatever the words).................and kiss your a*se goodbye"!!

On one flight the CC member who did the briefing made me laugh, he started it by saying
"I am about to do the safety briefing, please all put yoru newspapers down, give me your full attention and don't make out you know it all. To ensure your attention I shall be asking questions about it after I finsh and the winner gets a complimentary breakfast.......................the loser gets two breakfasts"!
We, as SLF (God I hate that phrase) want to be treated with respect by the CC on board, so we should give them the respect they deserve as well.

robtheblade

28th May 2010, 17:48

I prefer the quiet type. I think that the Captain/First Officer who gives us a 10min lecture on where we are heading, how high, how fast etc is new to the job and is trying to impress. The ones who say nothing are the ones to trust and just want to get home.

Compleatly wrong of course and no offence intended:\

Jipperty

28th May 2010, 21:22

I saw in the CC forum that someone asked why we need cabin crew at all? and of course was quickly shot down and I thin banned.

I think it is however an interesting question.

The post mentione dthe analogy with a train, Euorostar, which can carry 800 passengers at 200 mph 3 feet off the ground. The train has no cabin crew at all so why do we actually need the on the a/c.

The response will be it is for safety, which is no dpubt true. Likewise it could be argued that the train would be safer if ot had 1CC to very 50 Pax that get sreferred to here quite a lot.

So we should examine why we need them on the plane but not on the train?

From a safety perspective are we saying planes are less safe than trains?

Ignoring General Aviation it would appear that the statitics show that planes are a safer place to be yet we seem insistent on overpopulating the a/c with CC.

Can someone please explain why? I mean what is it exactly about planes that requires CC to look after our safety.

Bealzebub

28th May 2010, 21:36

Rob,

Certainly your point of view. Interestingly we get more complaints about not saying enough in this regard. Cabin crew will often tell us that people are asking where we are, etc.

I don't think it is a case of pilots being "new to the job", or necessarily "trying to impress." I do sometimes remind new pilots that they are carrying people, and it is important to communicate and within the limitations, interact with those passengers. It may not be to everybodies liking, but communication is an important tool, and how it is employed varies depending on the recepient. ATC, the cabin crew, the passengers etc. It is therefore important that it is practiced and employed in a frequent and sensible manner.

Given the constraints of security, time, etc. It is often difficult to use the communication tool as effectively or productively as you might always like, but nevertheless it is important that it is employed. Of course communication used properly is one of the primary components of "trust" so its absence can't really be used to imply anything particularly positive in this regard. A safe, regular and relaxed flight is what everybody wants from any journey, and the communication employed should be used to that end.

Jipperty,

Every Eurostar train I have ever been on, do have (cabin) crew on board. However passenger carrying commercial transport aircraft have legislative constraints placed upon them regarding the conveyance of passengers. The difference in the nature and environment of the operation means that aircraft passengers are required to have seat belts fastened at various times, and to be briefed at various points in the operation. The legal requirement for this compliance falls to the aircraft commander. Obviously it is impractical for the commander to ensure this compliance, so it falls to the required cabin crew to instruct, ensure and report that compliance.

Pohutu

28th May 2010, 22:10

Jipperty

I mean what is it exactly about planes that requires CC to look after our safety.

I expect you will get a number of answers to this question, but I'll just give you one example. In my career, I've investigated two accidents on trains, both of them involved passengers who (late in the evening) decided to get off the train at the most convenient location for them, but which unfortunately wasn't a location at which the train was stopping. This didn't do either of them a lot of good, since these were high speed trains. However, it didn't impact too much on the other passengers. If someone tried the same stunt on an airliner, I'd be very grateful to have trained cabin crew available to prevent it.

iain8867

29th May 2010, 01:10

Jipperty - I can tell you that although the Eurostar has no cabin crew the, the attendants on board are trained incase of emergency or medical. Before I came back to flying I worked for a Train company and part of my training was in the same place as Eurostars.

So although not called cabin crew there are some on board for safety

bondim

29th May 2010, 10:42

Jipperty,

Just one example out of many I could have chosen..

Let us assume there is no cabin crew on trains or on planes. Now, you have a fire onboard, be it a smoker setting fire to the toilet, an electrical fire behind the panels, choose anything you like.

What do you, as a passenger, with no crew on board, do? On the train, I would assume you and your fellow travellers will all evacuate that particular carriage, by moving up to the next one and close the (fireproof) door safely behind you. (Someone might try to use an extinguisher, but, untrained, will most likely make a mess of it) Then you will contact the driver, who will probably stop the train and you can all evacuate, its a few feet drop and you should have ample time.

What do you do on a plane, then? You have only that small (relative to the train) cabin, so you cant go anywhere. You will all be breathing in smoke within minutes. Then you try to contact the "driver!, and let's assume you are able to by the same means as on trains. He/she decides to land the plane. Now, how long is that going to take? More than a few minutes, I assure you. In the meantime, you are on your own, smoke and fire killing most of the passengers. You try to put out the fire...where are the xtinguishers? How many are there? how do they work? Do you know the difference between a bcf and a regular water extinguisher? Did you know you must wear smokehood when using bcf, as it emits toxic fumes? where is a smkehood then? How do you put it on? How long does it provide oxygen for? You need protective gloves, too, the bcf gets very cold when used, your fingers will freeze to it. Now, where are the protective gloves? Shoot, there is one here, but its soaking wet, can't use it, wish someone had checked it was servicable before the flight! I can say good bye to my fingers now! If the fire is behind panels, you need somethiing to remove panels with. Hang on, nothing that you could use is allowed onboard, in case terrorists might use it. No trouble, there is a crash axe in the cockpit, but how do I get it? The captain is not going to open the door for me, Im only a passenger and I might be a terrorist, so I can't get to the axe. In the meantime, captain needs more information about developments in the cabin. Are you trained how to relay this information to them accurately?

Now, let us assume the plane finally lands and you are still alive. The cabin is filled of smoke and toxic fumes, and you try to evacuate, but cannot find the exit. If/when you finally do, you open the door, but the slide doesnt blow. That door is many meters up above the ground. If you jump,, you will best case break your legs, worst case your neck. Do you know what to do to inflate the slide? Do you have time to go back and read your safety card? Are you trained how to get people moving towards the exit, you want to help them save themselves, dont you? What if other passengers in their panic try to use that door without theslide? What if they, in their panic, push you out of that door?

Isn't it just easier to have cabin crew onboard that is trained to deal with that fire in teh first place? Or one that stops the idiot setting fire to the loo in the first place?

And there are many more scenarios like this. Answers to all the questions above, and to hudreds of questions more, most you didn't even think existed (!), can be found out from the cabin crew. Because we know the answers to all those questions, and more! That is why we train for weeks, to be able to confidently handle situations you didn't even imagine could happen. We are also the eyes and ears of the pilots.We ars not only there to deal with emergencies when they occur, we are also part of the team that ensures incidents don't happen in the first place!

So yes, planes are less safe than trains in this respect. On the other hand, planes are probably SAFER than trains, exactly BECAUSE cabin crew, and others, are employed to MAKE THEM SAFE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Happy flying! :)

B

Jipperty

29th May 2010, 18:02

Very relevant points made in response to my earlier Q. In the spirit of reasoned and open minded debate........

Unauthorised opening of doors - aren't they locked from the flight deck during flight? If so how could a pax open one? and if said pax was determined to do so could a cc prevent this? No doubt in the train scenario the train had actually stopped outside of a station.
Medical emergencies - does the airline actually have a duty of care for the health of it's passengers? Should I really expect the airline to be capable of providing life saving treatment to me in the event of an emergency? I do not expect this of other providers i.e. when I get on an inter city train to London and find it hard to believe that any of the ticket inspectors are thus trained.
Cabin fires - how often do they occur? if there were no CC then a lot of the onboard devices that may cause a fire i.e. the galley equipment could also be removed from the a/c. In fact is it possible that cc are the most common cause of cabin fires?If the developments in military aviation are adopted in commercial then the days of unpiloted a/c are probably not so far away. No doubt it will start with freighters but then pax flights will slowly follow. Could it really be that we will lose the flight deck crew before the cc?

Final 3 Greens

29th May 2010, 18:09

If someone tried the same stunt on an airliner, I'd be very grateful to have trained cabin crew available to prevent it.

I'd like to see someone try to open a door whilst the a/c is pressurised.

bondim

29th May 2010, 18:43

Jipperty,

1. Yes, flight deck doors are locked from the inside, and can only be opened by the flight crew inside. In the case cabin crew need access to the flight deck in an emergency like pilot incapacitation, there is an emergency code, which, if entered, will give a signal to the pilots, They can then visually check who is outside the door, and if it is not cabin crew, they can elect to keep the door locked, and there is no way to get through it.

Door guarding procedures are varied depending on airline policies and regulations, but yes, the cabin crew is instructed to try to stop anyone forcefully entering the flight deck in-flight. Whether they are able to or not, won't be known until it happens. I, for one, would do my very best!

2. Yes, as far as I am aware, airlines do have the duty of care towards all onboard. I wouldn't be sure of legal interpretations here, but generally speaking, yes. Airlines are also required to carry first aid and/ or medical kits, these are part of the so called MEL (minimum equipment list), without which that aeroplane cannot fly.

3. Im really not sure about statistics on that one, I have no idea how frequent or serious in-flight fires actually are. My understanding is that they are rare, but hey, that's exactly why cabin crew are trained to deal with fire and smoke scenarions, just in case of the rare event they do occur.

Equipment used for cabin service may, of course, be the most common reason for fires, however, that is not to say that without this equipment no fires would occur at all.

To sum up my opinion on why it is necessary to have cabin crew onboard, it is because the aircraft operates in a very specific environment, ie far above the ground. If you have a fire on the train, you do yuur best, save yourself then STOP AND CALL THE FIREBRIGADE.
If you have unruly passengers on the train, or someone causing criminal dmagae, or committing a crime, once again, YOU STOP AND CALL THE POLICE!
If you have any kind of medical emergency on a train, again, you do your best, STOP AND CALL THE AMBULANCE.

What do you do on a plane, though? You could carry a few firefighters, policemen, medical professionals, etc on every flight. That would be expensive and unreasonable, given that a serious incidents don't happen that often (nothing in my case in nearly five years of flying) It is a lot easier to employ the lovely cabin crew who are trained and practiced (to an extent) to deal with these scenarios, although only trained to the extent it is necessary (ie no, cabin crew are not fully trained fire fighters, policemen, nurses, doctors, terrorist squads, but a little tiny bit all of those).

B

bondim

29th May 2010, 18:46

F3G,

I think the point made there was more general, ie if somebody was trying to interfere with safety or safety equipment, then he would like trained crew to deal with it.

Simonta

29th May 2010, 21:10

Korroll

I fly too frequently to not listen intently to the briefing.

radeng

29th May 2010, 21:37

As a very frequent flyer, I get VERY p***ed off with the PAX who ignore the safety briefing. Their stupidity and ignorance could cost me my life.

wowzz

29th May 2010, 21:57

When I first 'flew' - as SLF of course - I paid attention to the safety briefing. A few years later, travelling 2 or 3 times a month I thought it was 'cool' to show that as I was a regular [and therfore very important] pax, there was no need whatsoever for me to pay any attention to the briefing.
Now however, thanks partly to PPRune, and also to being a lot older and wiser, I always take care to put down my book/newspaper during the briefing, out of self-preservation and also out of politeness.
The one thing I always do without fail, is to count the number of seats between me and the nearest exits [in front and behind] - I'm always amazed how many pax never seem to look around them during the safety briefing.
I know the chances of an incident are rare, [which is perhaps why so many non-frequent fliers seem to be so un-concerned], but it is always better to be safe than sorry - which is why I agree with radeng - I do not want to be obstructed getting to an emergency exit by someone going the 'wrong' way.

smala01

29th May 2010, 23:20

Speaking of automation...

Found myself in the front carriage of the Dubai metro in the position i would have expected a driver to be.

Totally automated. No Staff on the train whatsoever.

Working in IT industry i felt rather more comfortable knowing that "some" chance of human error had been eliminated :)

Smala01

radeng

30th May 2010, 07:22

But smala01, what happens when something goes wrong? Like a fire, or a derailment, or a failure caused by a hot axle box which could lead to both? Who looks after the PAX then?

ExXB

30th May 2010, 16:16

Recent posting in Rumour and News has referred to the NTSB final report on US1549 (ditching in the Hudson) here (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416716-ntsb-final-report-us-airways-1549-a.html) including this observation:On a more serious note:
17% of pax watched the safety brief (or "most" of it)
8% of pax actually looked at the safety card
6% of pax got themselves a life jacket
Ouch. They were very very lucky to be in an EOW aircraft with the pilot they had, but that's really riding your luck.

So regardless of many of the comments above, what is being done isn't working. Time for a rethink?

korrol

31st May 2010, 08:48

All the very interesting and valuable information posted here has made me feel even more guilty about my original tongue-in-cheek but rather inappropriate post - for which I have already apologised.

That is a very interesting point re the Hudson River ditching - and raises the question of when safety information should be made available to passengers. Should it, for example, be provided when they book on line and be delivered electronically with their tickets - so it can be printed out and studied well before the flight?

I recently flew on a DHC-8-402 and have to admit that until I read the safety card had no idea that in the event of ditching the two rear doors would not be opened and all evacuation should be through the two front exits (one of which is passenger operated) - quite an issue if there are 75 people on board. I don't recall this being mentioned in the briefing from the cabin crew - but I could be wrong about that.

And are safety cards for all the myriad types of airliner available on the internet ? If they are I don't know where to find them.

radeng

31st May 2010, 10:37

I find the safety cards universally as readable as if they were in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics!

OyYou

31st May 2010, 17:52

Korrol. I've been flying for more years than I care to remember as crew and as passenger. When the safety briefing is being given I still give it about 90% of my attention. The other 10% is used to find the pratts who are going to get in my way to the emergency exit when the Sh*t hits the fan. If you are one of those pratts then I will tread all over you...

Have a nice day

Regards

Final 3 Greens

31st May 2010, 18:19

I think the point made there was more general, ie if somebody was trying to interfere with safety or safety equipment, then he would like trained crew to deal with it

No the poster specifically referred to people opening doors on high speed trains.

However, my comment was not entirely serious.

Final 3 Greens

31st May 2010, 18:21

If you are one of those pratts then I will tread all over you...

Try that on me and you will wake up in hospital, if you wake up at all.

And I have been in a fire where over 50 people died around me, so I know what it feels like and am not talking from hypothesis.

Capot

31st May 2010, 19:01

The subject of the "Safety Briefing" comes up every now and again.

The thread usually starts with someone observing, correctly, that as a procedure it's ineffective when employed in 95% of the flights that operate every day around the world.

Then a mixture of retired crew and self-declared frequent flyers waving their willies about how often they fly pile in, missing the point entirely, and assert correctly that it's necessary for passengers to know what to do in an emergency.

Whatever might happen in the USA, in the rest of the world the briefing will be given in the carrier's language and again, if you are lucky, in broken English that's often unintelligible to English speakers, let alone the, say, 25% - 50% of the passengers who speak neither the carrier's language nor English.

The briefing as still practised where there's no video has not changed in any significant way since I first saw it in 1965.

The demo of putting on a life jacket is fine, but go round the cabin after it, as I have done, and ask a selection of passengers to actually find it and get in into their hands quickly, and most will fail to do that.

The ritual, silly little dance movement "showing the exits" merely tells the watcher that there are doors front and back, to someone who understands that's what the vague, choreographed wave is about.

Pointing out that this pointless farce is ridiculous does not condemn me as someone who doesn't understand that passengers need to know what to do, and be reminded frequently.

It just puts me in the category of those who think, sorry, know that a better way must be found of achieving that.

Statements like The other 10% is used to find the pratts who are going to get in my way to the emergency exit when the Sh*t hits the fan. If you are one of those pratts then I will tread all over you... simply tell me that whoever says it is an idiot. It's a very good thing that OyYou was not on board US1549, where he could easily have been solely responsible for the deaths of a lot of people as he trampled his way over them to the exit.

etrang

1st Jun 2010, 09:25

Then a mixture of retired crew and self-declared frequent flyers waving their willies about how often they fly pile in, missing the point entirely,

:)

Pprune without the willie waving would be like the world cup without any flags.

Nicholas49

3rd Jun 2010, 17:31

From original post:

[Why don't cabin crew] just get on with what they're supposed to do?

So, that would be providing a safety demonstration as required by law, yes?

This is the most pointless thread ever. := :ugh:

sprocky_ger

3rd Jun 2010, 19:54

I used Air Berlin about 30 times. Even on flights inside Germany I always heard German/English safety announcements. Whatever happened on your flight it seems to me being an exception. I agree with you that this could irritate someone not speaking German.

Flying pretty often these days (same carriers and same type of aircraft) I rarely pay attention to the safety briefing. BUT: whenever I fly on a different type/subtype I take my time to look where the emergency exists are located and I also have a look at the safety card.

rottenray

3rd Jun 2010, 22:27

Capot writes (quoting OyYou):

Statements like

The other 10% is used to find the pratts who are going to get in my way to the emergency exit when the Sh*t hits the fan. If you are one of those pratts then I will tread all over you... simply tell me that whoever says it is an idiot. It's a very good thing that OyYou was not on board US1549, where he could easily have been solely responsible for the deaths of a lot of people as he trampled his way over them to the exit.I have been extremely fortunate in that I have never been on an aircraft that was evacuated.

I don't think OyYou was saying he'd make a mad dash for the nearest exit and simply trample everyone in his way.

And I don't think either one of us would just pass by someone who truly needs help.

Oy could have worded it a little better...

But I partially agree with him, in that I too will go around/over any pratt who puts a higher value on his carry-on stuff than his life or mine and delays both of us by trying to collect all his belonging before exiting.

I'm not going to risk death waiting for you to collect your duty-free booze or your laptop.

Think of it as chlorine in the gene pool, if you will.

Regarding all the comments vis a vis "I've heard it so many times I don't need to..." all I can think to say is that it's a total of maybe 5 minutes, and you're captive at the moment anyway.

Can't you spare the time? Will you absolutely just die paying attention one more time?

ExXB

4th Jun 2010, 06:08

"I've heard it so many times ...".

My comment on the BA video was that it was out of sync with what was happening. We're already moving and should already be strapped in and "To fasten your seat belt, insert the ..." Then they tell you that your carry-on must be in the overhead lockers or ... long after that already has been done. This is BORING after the first dozen times.

The Hudson experience tells us that few people (except PPRuNers of course) pay attention or read the card.

If we want better knowledge we need to rethink this. What's being done isn't working.

I suggested above that those obnoxious CNN/SKY news video machines at the gate be used to show you the safety video. Perhaps something a little more realistic - such as showing a realistic depressurisation (noise and fog and all of that). Wouldn't you love to see a realistic depiction of the slides forming rafts?

ZFT

4th Jun 2010, 07:25

Before I get chastised, I do pay attention to every briefing but and it is a big but, this ongoing issue that every aircraft is different therefore…………….…. is really a red herring.

I fly on the same S E Asian carrier just about every week. Their video briefing is identical (except for the locations of the emergency exits) irrespective of aircraft type. This briefing is given in English and their local language and the safety card is in English only.

Unless we mandate ICAO level 4 for pax there is a hole in the briefing process already.

As others have pointed out, the briefing is normally given after pushback when it is pointless being briefed on how and where to stow cabin baggage, how to fasten seat belts and so on.

I always check where MY exit is both fore and aft. I count how many seats I’ll need to climb over to get to it as I assume everyone around me won’t have a clue what to do. I clearly understand that the cc will be totally powerless to help as in the event they are already at the exit I’ll need to get to.

I don’t know what the answer is but modern briefings are both repetitive and boring. There has to be a better way. Possibly an on line test either at home or in the departure lounge with a personal briefing for those who fail or who haven’t performed the test?

CallBell

4th Jun 2010, 11:39

Just one point... crew demonstrate how to fasten a seatbelt but more importantly how to OPEN it.

rottenray

5th Jun 2010, 03:52

ZFT writes:

I don’t know what the answer is but modern briefings are both repetitive and boring. There has to be a better way. Possibly an on line test either at home or in the departure lounge with a personal briefing for those who fail or who haven’t performed the test?The problem is that some pax complain when CC try to inject humor or make the briefing palatable. Some feel this makes light of serious information.

I think others complain because the laughter/applause drowns out their last few seconds of stinky hip-hop before they *should* be stowing their iPod-thingies for take-off.

(Those, by the way, are the folks I - and prolly OyYou - will be pushing aside or walking over on the way out, unless they're also moving in the same direction. I don't have time for Darwin Award hopefuls on the ground, let alone in the air.)

ExXB writes:

The Hudson experience tells us that few people (except PPRuNers of course) pay attention or read the card. I still find it amazing that there were no fatalities, all things considered. I don't consider it a miracle - Sulley and his #1 used skill and experience to make a perfect water landing, but there was nearly nothing perfect about the evac.

And yet, most of "us" (not necessarily us here) won't take the 5 minutes to listen to a safety spiel.

Call Bell writes:

Just one point... crew demonstrate how to fasten a seatbelt but more importantly how to OPEN it.Exactly.

Also, some CC include important tips that don't seem important on first blush, but can be crucial when the sh!t hits the fan:

"And please notice that the overwing exits are smaller, those of you who are not with the circus will have to duck to avoid hitting your head against this aircraft-grade alumiwhatsit." (Heard this years ago on a CO flight.)

The thing which really p!sses me off is that being in a group of people which holds a few who have NO regard for safety brings down the survivability for all of us. It will take ALL of us working together to get out of an aircraft in a crash situation, and there are no drills for doing so - all we have are the spiels and common sense.

Fortunately, I don't have to fly as often as I did in the past. As much as I love the airline industry, the next time I fly I'm going to try to book on a private jet looking for a few pax to offset positioning costs.

rachel1707uk

5th Jun 2010, 12:29

As a new poster I may well get lynched for this (metaphorically, of course) but I kind-of sympathise with the comment about over-use of the PA system in general, having just got back from a Jet2 holiday where it felt like the role of CC was as much about sales as anything else. I understand that the budget airlines bump up their profits with onboard sales but I can sympathise with people tuning out announcements when it's more likely to be the nth reminder about the fantastic range of food / drinks / fragrances / scratchcards than something genuinely important such as, you know, safety.

lowcostdolly

6th Jun 2010, 14:21

Hi rachel welcome to PPrune from a CC member who loiters in this forum. It gives me perspective from the other side of my operation.

The role of CC in the eyes of the CAA is totally safety. In their eyes we can sit down for the whole flight other than to adress safety related issues.

Our employers however have a different view. Depending on your carrier we are on board to give a certain standard of service on a legacy/flag carrier.

They don't like us sitting down waiting for the very rare (thankfully) evacuation/decompression/fire/medical to come along. The common safety issues such as turbulance/cabin secure we can handle in a few minutes so in our employers eyes we are expensive for the rest of the time unless we are doing something else.

In the loco sector that is sales, sales and more sales to boost company profits. I know I am an SCCM for easyjet.

If I don't drive my crew/motivate the pax to achieve this I get hauled in to explain myself. The never ending PA's are part of this :eek:

I agree the pax do "tune out" sometimes and cannot/do not distinguish between sales and safety PA's in flight.

Maybe we should have a better system......any suggestions?

Nicholas49

6th Jun 2010, 17:09

lowcostdolly: I think you make an excellent point.

I confess that I am one of those passengers who really isn't interested in buying anything onboard, but I am always interested in an announcement from the flight deck and I always watch the safety demonstration.

It strikes me that on EZY and FR there are too many non-safety/operational PAs. I was led to believe that one of the reasons the captain makes a pre-flight announcement is so that passengers stand a better chance of recognising his/her voice in the event of an emergency. But unless you are alert, it can be difficult to distinguish all the automated/sales announcements from the captain's PA.

I have two suggestions:

1) make safety/operational PAs at a substantially higher volume so everyone can hear (it's been said before on here how frustrating it is when we can't hear you even when we want to!);

2) introduce these announcements with "This is a safety-related announcement" or similar wording to get people listening.

In my experience, the flights where passengers take the safety demo more seriously are those where the captain has emphasised - sometimes fairly firmly! - its importance.

Nick

ford cortina

7th Jun 2010, 07:23

Nicholas49
make safety/operational PAs at a substantially higher volume so everyone can hear (it's been said before on here how frustrating it is when we can't hear you even when we want to!);

Nicz idea, but on the 737 the PA volume cannot be altered by the Flight Deck or Cabin Crew

Nobend

11th Jun 2010, 05:08

Speaking of safety briefings;

MAS always state that one half of the lifejacket be inflated inside the aircraft which I always consider a bit strange.

Nine times out of ten I sit in 14A (no seat in front) next to the overwing exits and the other day I thought to myself I'd probably find it difficult to exit the aircraft with one side inflated.

korrol

11th Jun 2010, 17:45

The Air Accident Investigation Branch report on the emergency landing of a Flybe Embraer ERJ 190-200 G-FBEH shows very graphically how passenger evacuation can go wrong .
Air Accidents Investigation: June 2010 (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/june_2010.cfm)

L'aviateur

11th Jun 2010, 20:06

Fokker 70, Friday Night, difficult to spot anyone who doesn't have a platinum or gold tag on their bags. Many people know the crew by first names and vice versa having done this trip almost every friday night and monday morning for months/years/decades... Several positioning crew including pilots. During the safety briefing around 3 or 4 people actually looked up to pay attention (The crew weren't any of those, despite obviously having come from a different/longhaul fleet, but then I would be more surprised if they did watch it). I guess at least 50% of the people onboard could recite the briefing word for word, I know I can...

Most who fly so often consider it as a bus ride from A-B and are enthralled in a book/sleeping/working and praying that they get home early, and really don't care about much else.

I'm not suggesting this is the correct way, but this is reality.

radeng

12th Jun 2010, 15:39

Korrol,

Same source as the Embraer, look at the G-CIVB incident in Phoenix. PAX basically panicking.......

EISNN

13th Jun 2010, 00:15

http://svmomblog.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2009/01/15/plane_crash.jpg

If you look very closely at this picture of the ditching on the Hudson you'll see one of the passengers with his life jacket on upside down. Perhaps he was bored with paying attention to the SAFETY DEMONSTRATION, no????? :=:=:=:ouch::hmm:

Winch-control

13th Jun 2010, 10:49

That is a possibility, or..
a) The a/c is ditching: panic, confusion, get it on any old way..
b) The safety brief wasn't given/received as it was intended..

Either way, the pax managed to exit with the bouyancy device, so regardless, something worked, whether that was the crew shepherding out the door, or the pax next to him trying to help.

Most who fly so often consider it as a bus ride from A-B and are enthralled in a book/sleeping/working and praying that they get home early, and really don't care about much else.

Flight is the safest form of travel....

Based on real statistics, you would have to fly 24 hours a day for 400 years before being involved in a fatal accident.

The chances of it really are slim.
:D

Edited to add, or just once on your first flight, bit like crossing the road for the first time...

korrol

15th Jun 2010, 08:48

Of course it's just possible that the passenger being made fun of here for apparently not having put his lifejacket on correctly could have shoved the bladders out of the way so that he could swim - otherwise he'd be continually turned onto his back.
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2009/01/17/pass_wideweb__470x314,0.jpg
Meanwhile look at the woman - who is possibly a flight attendant - working on a leg injury. She's made the sensible decision not to inflate her lifejacket at all - because at that moment it would have got in the way. People aren't necessarily complete idiots - even when they're under stress.

msalama

18th Jun 2010, 07:31

I don't want to watch another lifejacket demonstration. I think I've got the idea now.

A bloody 5 minutes of yer life and yer complaining.

Listen, I read somewheres (an NTSB or FAA report perhaps) that most aviation accident-related deaths so far could've been avoided if the passengers had known what to do in a case of an emergency, i.e. had read and understood the ruddy instructions and followed the demos. So my friendly advice to you is to pay attention next time, because hey, you never know, it may even save your life :ouch:

And this is coming from someone who flies HEL-TXL-HEL many times a year and _still_ reads the bloody card and watches through the demonstrations each and every time...

radeng

18th Jun 2010, 09:26

mslama,

I too fly a lot. But I can't say that I find the safety instruction card terribly helpful - partly because unless you know what it is trying to tell you, you're lost. For example, it shows the 'brace' position without saying what it is or when it's to be adopted.

So although it may be of some help to native language speakers, the safety demonstration is probably more use. Having said that, I was on one flight in the US some years back where FA's accent was so broad I couldn't understand her!

sea oxen

18th Jun 2010, 09:54

I read somewheres (an NTSB or FAA report perhaps) that most aviation accident-related deaths so far could've been avoided if the passengers had known what to do in a case of an emergency

Am I alone in thinking that this is incredible? If your aircraft disintegrates in the cruise, will you really need that whistle? Is the brace position going to help when the aircraft plummets into a hotel on takeoff?

There are a few well-publicised cases where better discipline would have helped - but I have difficulty in reconciling the numbers killed in catastrophic accidents with avoidable deaths. This doesn't mean that one shouldn't give the CC the simple courtesy of watching them explain emergency procedures, of course.

SO

Agaricus bisporus

18th Jun 2010, 10:48

SO, that post is about as irrational and unhelpful as the fools logic that says seat belts in cars are pointless because "what happens if you get trapped by the belt". So you disregard something because it will not help in 2% of accidents and accept the fatality in the other 98%? That truly is bovine.

The statistic that is commonly bandied about is that in air transport accidents involving a fatality the average survival rate is 50%.

That suggests that it is very much the case that survival could be boosted by better awareness by pax.

ps. Everyone knows that aircraft don't plummet into hotels, only schools and hospitals. ;)

sea oxen

18th Jun 2010, 20:41

Agaricus bisporus

I would be indebted to you to learn where I brought into question the value of having passengers well briefed. Moreover, I explicitly stated that it's worthwhile paying attention to the safety tutorial.

The point that I was making was that I am unconvinced that msalama's assertion that most aviation deaths could have been prevented by passengers doing the right thing had good grounding. Furthermore, I would be happy to be refuted if you could render some substance to your claims.

Let me be quite clear about this. In a survivable accident, where the aircraft is intact and the personnel are still able to organise an orderly evacuation at 0 feet, the drill should be known. Whether it can be practised or not is questionable, but the number of people attempting to take their duty-free with them might be diminished. Slightly.

By and large, though, your chances of survival will depend upon whether you're at the back of an intact piece of aircraft, or if you're in First and the nose has broken clear, not if you know that you have a whistle.

SO
Sadly, Concorde went into a hotel

ExXB

19th Jun 2010, 09:45

It seems to me that we can all agree that having all on board, particularly SLF, fully aware of a number of facts on safety issues could help save lives.

However, recent incidents: US Air in the Hudson, Air France into a ravine at Toronto, British Airways on ice at Heathrow - where no-one died does call into question the basic premis behind this theory.

I think this whole process / procedure needs a re-think. What isn't working and what is? How can things be improved?

I've got some ideas (such as posting safety videos for aeroplanes you will be taking, with a link from your e-ticket. Safety 'classes' run by airlines (some people would pay for this! etc.)) but no real answers.

In my view what is being done doesn't accomplish the goal.

ConstantFlyer

19th Jun 2010, 18:52

ExXB

20th Jun 2010, 08:23

I've always found the oxygen mask bits to be the least informative - why not a video that shows the correct deployment (FAs rarely point to the right location from which the bags will come), putting them on (including pulling out the pin bit), and any aural or other clues that it is working ("please note, the bag does not inflate").

And when I say a video - I mean a realistic video with conditions in the airplane, while simulated, like they would be in an explosive depressurisation. (or is this a rare event itself?)

redsnail

20th Jun 2010, 10:05

Explosive decompressions are rare. Rapid or slow decompressions are more common, but still not a common (thank goodness!) event. :)

SloppyJoe

20th Jun 2010, 11:35

Saw a video of a simulated explosive decompression once, was above 40,000 but can't remember exact altitude. The guy knew it was coming and had passed out before he had the mask on, all he had to do was reach up, grab the mask, pull it and put it on. He got about as far as stretching the elastic about to put over his head when he passed out and the safety guy already in a mask had to finish putting it on for him. Would love it if they did show that sort of thing as has been suggested above about showing a realistic video. Would probably freak a lot of people out if they knew what it can be like especially because the pilots are in the same plane also without masks on.

sea oxen

20th Jun 2010, 13:50

I had to resuscitate a man the other day who'd choked on some food. He went down like a sack of -er- spuds. It's astonishing how quickly it happens when you run out of O2 and it's unexpected. Sometimes you need to pull, on other types you just strap on. Another reason it's worth paying attention.

In the case of an explosive decompression, just think about all the crap that will suddenly become airborne - well, I mean airborne with reference to the interior of the aircraft. I can only think of three survivable, notable EDs; one was a fan blade that busted the fuselage when the pilots were playing with CBs, the UA flight which took a few pax out, and the convertible Hawaiian flight. There must be more.

It would be interesting to learn how many people have died because they've not known how to use their O2. Not that many, I think. There's that flight in Greece a few years ago where a slow leak incapacitated the pilots, and the FAs arrived too late.

SO

PAXboy

20th Jun 2010, 14:45

I'm not sure that any major overhaul would produce any measurable benefits.Even events that are similar (a/c type, weather conditions) are unique - because you have a set of pax who have never been through it before.

You cannot legislate for pax and what they will do. Even if you showed them worst-case scenarios, they would not take it in because that is human nature.

I have now read the CAA report on Flybe G-FBEH as suggested by Korrol, it gives me confidence that the system of oversight is working. The shortcomings in the evacuation have been noted but will probably appear again but in a slightly different form which will produce different results. As always in life, luck may not be on your side.

Lonewolf_50

21st Jun 2010, 15:48

I wish to comment on the criticism of the gent wearing the life vest as a necklace in the picture of the water evac.

One explanation offered was for ease of swimming. That's one good point, as those of us who have tried to swim with buoancy assists (think water survival training, Navy) discovered. Perhaps this gent was more aware than some of his critics allow.

Another is that, absent risk of it slipping off his head if it isn't tight enough/sung enough under his jaw, the life vest in that configuration guarantees two things:

he floats
his head is above water, so he breathes.In a survival situation, that's not a bad thing.

Downside: given the water temp that day, my estimation is that he'd not be able to huddle/curl to conserve body heat as effectively were he not in the raft, but as that's not part of the safety briefing for SLF, that point's probably moot.

I note that he's in the raft, so he's floating anyway. His personal flotation device is a back-up accessory at that point.

All said and done, I see little wrong with his adaptation of the tool, though I admit it looked curious to me when I first saw the picture.

I expect that most folks stick with the simple "this is how you put it on, wear it thuswise" guidance.

Whoops, my post count equals my age. :eek:

Number34

21st Jun 2010, 18:58

I too fly a lot. But I can't say that I find the safety instruction card terribly helpful - partly because unless you know what it is trying to tell you, you're lost. For example, it shows the 'brace' position without saying what it is or when it's to be adopted.

So although it may be of some help to native language speakers, the safety demonstration is probably more use. Having said that, I was on one flight in the US some years back where FA's accent was so broad I couldn't understand her!

One would expect that the 'brace position' would be pretty self explanatory and it would be used when told to by the FA's :ok:

Seriously people, if you don't want to listen to the safety brief, don't. But watch out if you get in my way or the way of other, more reasonable people when we are trying to get out of a burning or sinking aircraft.

ExXB

22nd Jun 2010, 06:15

Lonewolf_50

22nd Jun 2010, 13:27

I haven't said that I don't want to listen to the briefings, I said that the briefings don't appear to be suit the objective, and that a rethink is needed.
As I think of this, the objective of the safety briefing is informational, to meet a minimal requirement of mentally preparing the attentive passenger to execute a few simple commands/steps in event of something going wrong.

I don't think it counts as training.

Do you agree?

If you want somebody to do something, training is often an effective means of transferring habits and behaviors.

Effective passenger training would include doing dry runs for donning life vests, for example, and a single dry run "how to get out of a tube via the emergency exit" events.

Hmmm.

People sit in the terminal for hours on end.

Why not have a "how to" booth for pax to practice donning the life vest for their flight? (PR reason: don't dwell on the negative, the airplane is just a faster bus to get you to see your cousin ... ) Get a ticket/coupon for having done so, while your fellow pax are still stumbling through security and full body cavity searches ... :p

Needless to say, most pax don't undergo training for things gone wrong, though crew do.

In your suggestion for a rethink, is training a path ahead?

Given how well the USAIR mishap/water landing was publicized, could various airlines consider that "since it might happen, drop by our little training booth and try on a life vest" with some sort of positive incentive to do so?

Free bag of peanuts?

I haven't come up with the sales pitch, but perhaps there is some room to encourage pax participation in training and being ready for the odd "it went wrong" event.

I just finished the NTSB report on USAIR 1549, and was interested to see how many people didn't get their life vests ... the briefings were apparently ignored or overlooked by a large portion of the pax surveyed.

*rubs head*

There is room for a process improvement here ...

Number34

22nd Jun 2010, 15:19

While your comment may be relative to the OP, I don't think it relates to my, or many other comments.

I haven't said that I don't want to listen to the briefings, I said that the briefings don't appear to be suit the objective, and that a rethink is needed.

Is your comment limited to those that fail to listen to the briefing, or do they equally apply to the elderly and the infirm? Frankly I don't want to be on the same aeroplane as with people with your attitude.

Really? We are talking about people not listening to the announcements which led on to some PAX not paying attention to the safety briefing. So I don't see why my comments wouldn't be relative. The first paragraph was directed at you, then the rest was in general, if that clears it up.

Of course I would help the aged and disabled, like any normal human would. But I don't want some suit to get in both my way, and the way of others just because he was to busy reading the newspaper when the briefing was on. If you don't think they deserve a good bollocking, your a kinder man then most.

sea oxen

22nd Jun 2010, 18:57

Of course I would help the aged and disabled

Could it not be the case that you could obstruct the orderly evacuation of the aircraft by doing so (unless it was just you and the biddy left onboard), and thereby become a 'suit' yourself?

I have never heard a briefing where any guidance was given apropos assisting other people - apart from with the mask. Is there anyone from CC land out there who could advise us? My assumption has always been that it is the job of the CC to empty the cabin as quickly as necessary and then mop up the strays.

SO

Lonewolf_50

22nd Jun 2010, 19:10

@ sea oxen

Some of the earlier comments in this thread use the term Crowd Control, which appears to fit your idea: CC to empty the cabin as quickly as necessary and then mop up the strays.

At the functional level, does that not suit an evacuation scenario?

Sir Niall Dementia

23rd Jun 2010, 09:04

A quick view from the front left seat:

The safety brief is mandated in The Air Navigation Order (CAP 393) regulations 53 and 54.

A real goody is Regulation 77:

Authority of commander of an aircraft

77
Every person in an aircraft shall obey all lawful commands which the commander of that
aircraft may give for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons or
property carried therein, or the safety, efficiency or regularity of air navigation.

Interestingly such things as safety briefs and seat belt signs are included in Reg 77. What most customers (I hate the term SLF) don't realise is that when we are taxiing to the gate and they unstrap, stand up and start grabbing their gear from the overheads they are breaking the law, and in doing so are uninsured. Early in my career I was P2 on an aircraft which had to stop suddenly while taxiing in. A lady who was digging her briefcase out of the overhead was thrown down the cabin breaking a couple of ribs, sadly she also broke the neck of another lady passenger with the case. A long legal battle ensued to gain compensation for the mum of 3 boys who was now in a wheel chair, my employers made a large ex-gratia payment to help until all was sorted, but it took about 5 years.

Please remember that as customers we value you highly, without you there are no jobs. But, when we tell you to do something it is for your safety, and while, like many of you I dislike long , rambling PAs, if there is an instruction then obey it, otherwise you are breaking the law. If I say pay attention to the cabin staff for the brief I mean it. I sit next to one of the best exits on the aircraft and will leave by that one, you need to know where yours are and how they work. As pilots we call our recent experience on the aircraft "currency" we are there all the time but consider ourselves "uncurrent" after two weeks off. As customers your currency will be no-where near as good as ours, so why don't you do as we do and take a thoroughly good brief.

SND

PAXboy

23rd Jun 2010, 11:54

Lonewolf_50, I think you have the start of a very good idea.

Initially all carriers will recoil instinctively - but only because they have done so since the start of time. In a LH lounge, children will be glad to have something to do and can then - in emergency - be a help to their parents not a hindrance.

Lonewolf_50

23rd Jun 2010, 14:24

Thank you Paxboy

Lonewolf_50, I think you have the start of a very good idea.

Initially all carriers will recoil instinctively - but only because they have done so since the start of time. In a LH lounge, children will be glad to have something to do and can then - in emergency - be a help to their parents not a hindrance.

However, I do see a snag already in my idea. A given gate at an airport services many different kinds of aircraft, each with a possibly different seat, and a different life vest.

Caveat: a given airline may own an entire wing or concourse (my mind flies to the myriad of American Airline gates at DFW) of an airport, or lease it to the point that it is "X Airline's" concourse. For the majors at large airports, this might be more doable. A small kiosk with a variety of seats and life vests for trying out. For a smaller airline on tight margins, the expense may not make the cut for funding.

How to label such a small, fun, trainng kiosk?

Passenger prep kiosk, training ... how to get the most out of your flight ... marketing isn't my strongest suit, I grant you.

There is also the matter of dealing with the airport authority who wants as many segments/square feet of his airport area to be revenue producing ... what shop or pub is sacrificed?

While the trained passenger is more likely to respond well to things gone wrong, selling a cost benefit scheme in an industry where most flights are utterly uneventful for the passenger may be a bridge too far.

Shack37

23rd Jun 2010, 17:07

The safety briefing says "pull the mask towards you to start the flow of oxygen...". But how hard? A gentle pull or a hard tug? And can you tell straightaway when it starts? Has anyone on here had to do it?

On Iberia the Spanish language briefing uses the phrase "tirar fuertamente" which translates as "pull strongly" (firmly). The English version, IIRC, just says "pull". I believe there is a secondary wire/cord to prevent the oxygen supply tube being ruptured if too much force is used.

PAXboy

23rd Jun 2010, 19:38

Some carriers demonstrate the 'pull' with a strong double tugging motion to indicate that it's a firm pull. Some carriers have the pipe folded over with a red plastic clip on it. When you pull (we are told) the clip will spring off.

korrol

4th Jul 2010, 06:09

This was the dilemma facing the pilot of a private jet in the USA chartered to fly a well-known tv personality . Here's the newspaper report::-

Famous comedian was deemed as a safety risk by airline pilots : Abby Dentner

According to airline pilots, comedian Dave Chappelle was a safety risk during a flight. Chappelle was heading home to Ohio on a private jet when he allegedly freaked out and caused a disturbance. The Comedy Central host claims he had to use the restroom, but the crew onboard said Chappelle’s behavior was unacceptable.

The pilot of the private jet carrying the comedian decided to make an emergency landing because he couldn’t cope with Chappelle’s “bizarre behavior.” He boarded a private jet in New Jersey heading home to Ohio.
Chappelle, 36, caused a disturbance during the flight and wouldn’t put his seat belt on, causing the crew to divert the plane to Pittsburgh

I'm not making any comment on this incident either way except to say that I think there is an implied - and unwritten - contract between everyone on board an aircraft in which all agree not to act in a way which inconveniences or hazards anyone else.