The perpetual "Am I too old? question 2010

[Higgers]

Hi,

Im sure there are loads of posts out there regarding this but...

Im 36 years old and have just passed the OAA assessment course.

I was told at the end of the assessment that, whilst I will be fine doing the course, I will probably only have a 10% chance of getting an airline job because of my age....

Does anyone have any views on this? It will mean I have to sell my house to pay for this - which I will not hesitate to do as its a life long ambition - but it will be a tough pill to swallow if at the end of it I cant get a job.

Does any one know why an airline wouldnt take on an older FO even if they paid for their own type rating (I know this is discoraged)? (Ryanair for example)

Thanks for your help.

[redsnail]

You'll be 38 or so by the time you finish the course.
Now, there's no legal reason why you can't get a job. Just practical ones.

The reality is that many will not get a good paying job for 3 or more years after finishing. Can you live on less than £20K for that period of time? Do you have a family? How will their lives be affected?

You'll only have 20 years to "pay yourself back" and save enough for a livable pension. It may sound like a long time but given there's a cycle of 7-10 years in aviation, can you afford to lose your job in 10 years time and be out of work for a year?

These are all harsh economic decisions that you must weigh up before considering a full time integrated course. You can go modular and it'll probably take a year or so longer and you'll probably keep your house.

Many employers view sub 250 hour pilots at the age you'll be as a training risk. Whether they are right or wrong is immaterial, that is how they view you. If they hold that view, you won't be offered an interview. You won't know why, you'll just be told "you're not competitive".

One of the tasks of a pilot is to weigh risk/benefits.

[Pelikanpete]

A 10% chance of a job, having spent vast sums of money on an integrated course, sounds slightly better than normal odds whether you are 20 or 36 years old!

What they actually mean is that you might be at a disadvantage in the initial career path that the integrated schools try to provide - A very expensive course and type rating that might lead to a form of apprenticeship with a budget airline and for a tiny proportion (when times are good), a chance to be a cadet with BA or another similar dream airline job.

Luckily that career path is not your only choice and it would have been a bad choice anyway in the current economic climate as the big integrated schools are being fairly unsuccessful in providing their graduates any help at all.

You can spend half as much on modular training and actually complete it quicker than integrated if you do it full time. At the end of your training you can try to work your way up via the instructor route and corporate (where your age and life experience will be appreciated) and once you have an unfrozen ATPL your age will be less relevant. The career change is a big risk and will never make you much money so don't waste your current savings lightly and think very carefully about whether you really want to take it.

[Mikehotel152]

I have to second Redsnail on this one.

If you're single and care-free, won't regret giving up your financial security for a dream that could well turn into a nightmare, have intense drive, self-belief and above average aptitude for becoming a commercial pilot, go for it. The odds are against you but you might get lucky.

If you are perpectually unlucky or have dependents, don't do it! :)

[Higgers]

Thanks everyone.

It’s a really tough call to be honest. I’m in a good job but have always wanted to fly commercially....

My reason for being a little late is the change in the CAA colour vision test.

It is a genuine passion for me but I do have to realise the risks. I was a little concerned that the info I had been given at the flying school might be a little 'biased against' as part of their results rely on placing their graduates. A job which I fully appreciate is a little more difficult with an older candidate.

They did say at the end of all the bad news that there should be a fair number of jobs available when I finish, it’s just that I may not be eligible for them. On the other hand, they also said I may well be an option for private jet companies (such as Net Jets).

Obviously a lot of thought will have to go into this over the next couple of months!!!

Thank you all again for your help.

[IrishJetdriver]

In Sep 1998, age 34, with wife, mortgage and 8 week old baby I quit my London job to do the ATPL course. In March 1999 I had finished everything. In Feb 2001 I got a job. I'm now an LTC with Ryanair.

It can happen..............but these things were on my side.

I already had 1800hrs.
I was a Qualified Flying Instructor
I did the "self improver route" and the whole lot cost me £13k including loss of salary.
I got my old job back in London when I couldn't find a flying job.
I didn't have to pay for the TR (BAe146)
I got a fairly quick jet command (5yrs)
I got a direct entry command at Ryanair even though never flew 737
Ryanair paid for the TR
I was spectacularly lucky

Don't put your family on the line. It's not worth it by doing an integrated course unless you can afford to lose your investment but not your home and family. You've got to be able to look your wife and kids in the eye and KNOW ABSOLUTELY that you'll protect them. It's a huge investment as you know.

Best of luck however in whatever you choose. If you haven't done a Class 1 medical yet then get it done asap.

[Higgers]

Thanks Irish Jet Driver!

I am in the unusal position of being single now and so that does afford me a certain amount of freedom.

I would certainly be following my dream but, would I be more frustrated in actually being able to fly commercially but not being able to get a job that enables me to do it? A decision I will have to think over.

Im really pleased it all worked out for you.

I will take your advice and use it for sure.

Thanks again.

[Piltdown Man]

Firstly, you don't sell your house nor do you borrow against it. I can fully understand your desire to fly for a living because I too had the same aspiration as you. I left proper full time employment in 1989 and it took until 1993 to get my first job as an F/O. Fortunately I still had my parents' house to live in and some savings but more importantly, no dependents.

The world for those aspiring towards a career in aviation has changed since I started. For a start we are in a dreadful economic slump. Secondly, there are a huge number of qualified pilots looking for work and thirdly, as ever, there is a glut of wannabes. Some of the wannabes are so desperate, they'll pay for line training as well as their own type ratings. This is clearly bonkers. But what is means for you is that it is most unlikely that you'll get a job for a few years after you qualify, unless of course, you get lucky.

As for the reason airlines won't take older F/O's - well some do. But it is a fact that the older you get, the longer you take to train and adapt to new procedures. However, most reasonable airlines don't have a problem with age once you are in. The problem is with the prats in the Human Remains. You have get past them first to get your job. And you may well have a better chance of winning the lottery than getting past them. They have their own set of criteria for pilots recruitment which they'll apply even to the detriment of their own operation.

My advice - take up gliding, aerobatics or vintage aircraft and stick to the day job. Flying won't be rewarding new entrants for a few years yet.

PM

[Higgers]

Thank you guys.

I am in the slightly unusual position of now being single at my age and so I dont have anyone else to consider than me.

Despite this, I do not want to throw away everything ive ever worked for to follow a dream and to then fall flat on my face after an awful lot of money and effort has gone into it...

Make no mistake, if I knew I stood as fair a chance as any other just qualified FO out there, then I would start it tomorrow.

Its sad (but obviously true) that HR select their pilots on the basis of their age (largely) and not on their passion to fly and to be the best pilot they can be.

I really appreciate your help and its clear I will have to make some serious choices ahead..

[Mikehotel152]

They did say at the end of all the bad news that there should be a fair number of jobs available when I finish

Please don't make any decisions based on anything an FTO has told you about the state of the industry. Ask here, ask at your local aerodrome, read professional Aviation magazines, even ask your butcher. Just don't ask an FTO!

[Aerouk]

Have you got your PPL? Why don't you just become a hobby pilot?

The majority of airline pilots that can fly afford the time and money to fly love their hobby flying!

[zia9312]

Hi,

Can you just tell me where did you got your ATPL in 13 k. Kindly let me know soon as I am planning for career change but its all too expensive.

Waiting for your reply..

[IrishJetdriver]

Alas it was via a splendid method called "self improver" which is no longer an option. Basically if you had more than 1500hrs then all you had to do was take whatever training was necessary (if any) in order to pass the exams. At that time you were also able to claim VAT exemption as a National Vocational Qualification (NVQ).

That was the way it should still be now in my opinion. Everyone now has to cough up the same money regardless of experience (I'm excluding holders of foreign professional licences seeking to convert to JAA). Too many pilots with great experience but too little money being denied a chance.

[Fitz216]

Hi, I’m 32 and just completed my CPL/IR. I was working for the last 10 years and like yourself a bit later on I decided that I wanted a career change. The decision was one of the hardest things I have ever done, leaving all that I knew (all be it unhappy doing it), and a stable and well paid job.

I decided to start with my PPL part time and then after doing that took the plunge in January 2009 and commenced full time ground school. After completion of that I went onto CPL and IR, and with a bit of delay due to technical issues and a lot of weather issues I completed in March.

All I can say is the last 15 months have been the best of my life, doing what I want to do and pushing myself have proved to be more rewarding that I could of ever imagined. I was lucky in that my wife supported me fully, this made life a lot easier but all I can say is if you are thinking about doing this, go for it, the job situation may not be the best, but I have and never will regret taking the chance to chase my dream,

All the best and happy landing.

[Tom355uk]

Well, I am 25 and currently paying off credit cards and loans from being a student. I currently have 2hrs (!) of time and am planning on starting a part time modular route from next spring (once everything is paid).

I know prospects are rubbish for the next 5 years, so I'm not really worried - I plan on taking my time, doing everything properly and targeting to obtain my CPL/IR + ATPL Theory by the time I am 35 - when hopefully prospects have improved a bit :)

Then, I will just hours build however I can (Never by P2F though :mad:) until something comes along. If nothing does, at least I will have enjoyed the ride!

Am I being too optimistic, or just plain stupid?

[FANS]

Realistically you've left it far too late and so your chances of ever getting in the RHS of a jet are very low. You might have a chance of being a career instructor, but again this will be tough.

Equally, going down the modular route over such a pro-longed period lessens your chances even further.

Like you've said, at least you'll have enjoyed the ride but I think it's important to be realistic over your prospects given the big age issue.

[Black Knat]

Fans-you post such rubbish!

[Tom355uk]

Gee Thanks FANS :rolleyes:

Firstly, I never have, and never will be lucky enough to be able to afford an integrated course, or even be bankrolled for a fulltime modular course.

Secondly, flying a jet doesn't bother me really. Neither does the salary. All I have ever wanted to do is fly for a living. Of course, an airline job of any description (whether it be RHS on a J41 or an A380) would be a dream come true, but if it doesn't get to that point then at least I will be doing what I love in my spare time.

Thirdly, why does that period of time I plan to complete the license have any effect? I have budgeted (Initially, anyway) for 2-3 hours per month on PPL, then an increase as far as possible for hours building and the like, while adding all the qualifications I can along the way (Complex, Night etc) Surely 3 hours a month for 10 years will provide a stable and consistent learning curve, rather than being overloaded with information with a view to shoving me out as quickly as possible to get the next sucker in with his (or her) £80k cheque from the bank of mummy and daddy? :yuk:

Now, I have seen quite a few posts on here - From people older than I will (hopefully) be when I get my license saying they manage(d) to get jobs. I am also acutely aware of the chasm that aviation is in, but i'm talking TEN years into the future. Remember, 10 years ago nobody could have foreseen 9/11, the LCC peak in the middle and latter part of the decade, or the spectacular and horrific fall from the top seen over the past 24 months.

Nobody knows what the next 20 years or so hold for the business (If they do, please let me know so I can invest early :ok:)

I appreciate the caution, but to flatly rubbish everything I said seemed a bit harsh.

[G SXTY]

Realistically you've left it far too late and so your chances of ever getting in the RHS of a jet are very low.

The trouble is, someone might actually believe this. :ugh::ugh:

I've said it many times already, but apparently it still needs saying. Trial lesson aged 29, CPL/IR aged 36 (that's seven years by my maths) and an airline job within 3 months of qualifying.

The biggest key to success in this game is not age, or training route, or even ability. It's timing. Qualify when the job market is strong, and given a modicum of ability, you'll eventually find some sort of flying job. Qualify when the market is poor – like now, or, in all probability, anytime in the next couple of years – and the task is practically impossible. It then becomes a question of whether your finances and determination can hold out until the market improves again.

[FANS]

G-S, if anyone believes my last post they've got no hope anyway...

Your post sums it up, with one ommission; it also depends hugely on you as a person and what you've been doing for the last 10 + years.

[Muddy Boots]

I am not writing this from a breadth of experience in airline employment, as indeed I'm a career changer too, doing it rather late in life but not preturbed.

I do agree with something that FANS says and that is:


it also depends hugely on you as a person and what you've been doing for the last 10 + years.


If you have a wealth of management / executive / professional experinence under your belt and you change career, I would believe you would have a far better crack at getting your foot in the door than someone who has been working in a pub for the last 10 years and decided to go for it.

There are an awful lot of people on this forum moaning about not getting a flying job but you never know what their suitability for employment is beyond their frozen ATPL.

[EGCC4284]

1, Timing, get it right. Don't rush now as the market in the UK is f-cked.

2, Luck, you make your own. It won't be handed to you on a plate.

3, Network network network and then network some more

4, Positive mental attitude

5, Smile and believe in yourself

6, Never give up

7, Keep sending CV's, e-mails, letters and keep making phonecalls

[P Squared]

I hope that Muddy Boots is right. I am almost 43 years old and have decided to get crackin on my PPL and see how the landscape looks from there.

I have worked as a commercial lawyer for a time and now work for an airline as a commercial manager, having completed an MBA a couple of years ago. And yes I have a wife and child to share my life..

No-one is offering me a job here at this airline, but I will be continuing to ask what the criteria are for hiring and whether or not I am automatically discounted for not being "29 years old". So far, the response has been that age is not an issue - there are just a number of hurdles to clear before anyone can talk about hiring me as a pilot...like learning to fly and passing medicals.

Otherwise, I recognise that I will be taking a pay cut - but if life were just about making more and more money, everyone would work for one of the big banks....zzzzzzzzz...

If I can get into commercial flying of one sort or another by age 45 I will have a crack at something big soon thereafter - and still be able to offer almost 20 years of flying to an employer...not many people are with any employer for that long nowadays. And I am flexible as to type of aircraft and job...

I hear around and about that a pilot shortage is likely to happen in about 5 years (again)..but its just whispers....all good for me if its true though, I reckon.

My best mate has also moved on from being a motorcycle mechanic to doing his AME apprenticeship - he really is paid crap at the moment...and he has two kids. But we all find a way to get thru when we have to...

I would think that anyone younger than me has a serious chance at getting a gig, all things considered. It is me who has to wait and see if it pans outs...I won't fail thru lack of effort though I can tell you !!

good luck to all of you givin it a go!

[EricCartman]

I'm on my way through watching the third cycle in my aviation awareness span - I have not flown since 2000 professionally and never attained a rank higher than Navajo driver. But... I'm getting back into it now with a three year plan, specifically for timing. 2500 TT and 500 ME right now does not qualify me for a RHS job w/ a good 737 or A320 operator, but that all changes once people start retiring (Air Canada expects an increase in the annual exodus now and into the near future - while at the same time economic conditions - being cyclical, are likely to improve.)

As a 39 year old (you heard that right) who is looking for RHS job (to start) with a great Canadian co., I think that being ready for the next three years is likely to be ideal. Consider that the US and Europe drive a good chunk of the now heavily interdependent global economy. Once the hangover and deluge wears off from the great collapse of credit markets etc, there is a good chance that there simply won't be enough candidates.

Now, ofcourse, there's a good chance I'm just smoking my own concoction of fantasy and that nothing will happen. Ready for that eventuality too - but I've invested a fair bit in IPC checks and ATPL studying so that I'm ready willing and able.

I'd love to know what others think - My thinking is that at 42 or so I want to be ready.

[P Squared]

Hey all,

I found out today that Boeing estimates that 18,000 pilots per annum will need to be trained to fill the front seats in aviation until 2028. As airframe manufacturers, I would think that their estimates are likely to be well considered projections as to their market in the coming years.

Interestingly, even with the downturn, both Boeing and Airbus still delivered a large proportion of the aircraft ordered for delivery in the past 12 months. I cant remember the exact numbers, but we are looking at well above 90 % of the aircraft ordered.

That's good news for everyone.

looking forward to my flying lessons this weekend !!!!!!!

PP

[potkettleblack]

Don't get to excited. Firstly, those figures are bound to be on the high side. Secondly, most of the growth will be in Asia and the ME. Think work permits, not speaking the right language etc etc. India is already kicking out foreign licence holders. Other countries allow TRE/TRI or direct entry captains only.

Unfortunately there will never be a huge demand for 250hr low timers.

[BigNumber]

Potkettleblack has it quite correct. There will NEVER be any lack of applicants for ANY flying job. Jets, props, instructing inclusive.

Age has become largely irrelevant; more given the fact that older applicants are likely to be able to fund 500hrs Line Training P2F.

With 500 Hrs A320 / 737 etc aged 45 you will still get hired every time infront of a 20 year old 200hrs FATPL. FACT.

I think that P2F has actually given a ready route to the older career changer. Still with at least 20 years of potential work in them.

I have said it before; my private owner operates 2 business jets and actively prefers older pilots. He finds little in common with the 20 somethings, so the 'grey hairs' get our vote every time. Indeed a 50 year old that had funded 500 hrs jet time would be an attractive proposition. The jet hours are a requisite for insurance and the age means he has other skills to help within our small team.

Please; no one be put off by any you're over 40 cobblers.

[downwind24]

Its great to hear these positive comments regards the 'older' guys. Im almost 36 and half way thru the ATPL theory. I gave up a great career and well paid salary to persue my dream. Iv read the drivel about 'when you past 27 your past it' and i cant believe people write that. I know a few over 40's that were hired on jets as their first jobs , the most inspiring was a guy who was hired by TUI on 737's with 400 hours , hes just starting at Qatar on the 777.

I was told by a 'young gun' that the best i could hope for would be a regional turboprop job as i will be 37 when i complete the fATPL and that i was just plain stupid for giving up a secure job , car and good salary , well everyone has their story and mine was watching a 33 year old relative take their last breath thru Cancer , now that changed my life for the better and gave me the kick up the harris that i needed !

Thinking i was on the old side i now realise that after speaking to a few training captains that they would take age and experience over youth and inexperience every time , unfortunately most human remains departments are not of that way of thinking .

Also having a ton of money in equity in my house as iv been grafting these past 18 years is also of benefit to fund my training :O

[shaun ryder]

Don't get too excited and keep your feet firmly placed on the ground. The inspiring story that you refer to is more than just an exception to the rule, believe me. Its rough out there even when its good, you will need experience to compete for proper jobs (i.e full time contract with a proper employer) that means private health care/ pension/ uniform/ medical/ proper hotac on layover/ staff travel etc etc for any of you ryanairesque drones reading this. The bull**** above spouted about our greying heros who pay for 500hrs jet time and being preferred over Tarquin fresh out of OAT + P2F and pots of cash = rubbish. A 2 horse outfit is no comparison to an airline run by beancounters, your boss may prefer the oldies but I doubt that will apply across the board.
Lower your sights and get real, 36/ 26 whatever, it is still a nightmare to land a decent career in aviation don't let the warm feeling get in the way of reality. This is and will always be one of the hardest nuts to crack career wise anywhere.

[downwind24]

SR believe me , ivfriends who work for the 'real' airlines you speak of , i also know the SH 1 T they have had to get there , my feet are firmly planted my friend , im chasing the dream but not stupid enough to throw away everything iv worked for in the mean time.
:}

[AOB9]

I'm a 42 year old male recently made redundant by a large Pharmaceutical company with a generous redundancy package. I'm in excellent health. I have always entertained the idea (in my dreams at least) of being a pilot. I'm an MS Flight Sim junkie for years and I've spent an absloute fortune on making the whole "Sim" experience as realistic as possible. My question is very simple really....am I too old to start pilot training with view to a career in the cockpit? Even if I did manage to qualify would an employer view me as a poor longterm investment?

[Grass strip basher]

You probably don't want to hear this but yes you are probably too old.

Likely to be mid-forties by the time you get the license and the step down in pay/lifestyle you would have to take (and your family) even if you got a FO job would be more stress than it is worth.

Go get a PPL and fly for pleasure. Once you have done that then reassess how you feel about it all. Do not go integrated at your age that would be throwing money down the drain.

I would check out the local flying club and check out the lay of the land for getting a PPL as the first step.

Beware the "go for it" brigade... normally they just want your money. As always in life a bit of realism and moderation is needed.... the world is still a very very shakey place and you may need that redundancy money so don't blow it all.

[AOB9]

Thank you for responding.

Grass Strip Basher...there is a lot of sense in what you say. I was reviewing some threads on "terms and conditions" and I can already invisage some frustration with very low wages. Hardly what you'd expect after such a large investment of both time and money. As you imply, that would be something a younger person would be prepared to take. I've already been to college, got qualified and crawled the ladder to good T&C's. I'm not sure I have the stomach, or the lifespan, to go through that again.

I will, however do the PPL ASAP and continue to review the situation.
A friend of mine qualified here www.atlanticair.ie/private-pilot-license.aspx (http://www.atlanticair.ie/private-pilot-license.aspx) and recommends them.

[Khaosai]

Hi,

if its something you really want to do, then go for it. However, it is a good idea to get some guidance and advice from others who have been through the system.

I am pretty sure there will be some companies that will employ pilots who are older but inexperienced, particularly if you can convince them of no desire to move on.

Timing plays a large part in the whole thing. A buddy of mine got his command in Virgin after 20 months, its more likely 15 plus years now !.

If i could wind the clock back 21 years, knowing what i know now, i would have chosen another career for sure.

Good luck to all.

Rgds.

[EGCC4284]

the most inspiring was a guy who was hired by TUI on 737's with 400 hours , hes just starting at Qatar on the 777.


Downwind24, got here last Friday and it bloody hot, 41 degrees at 2pm and 35 degrees at midnight LOL

[downwind24]

Hey Rob , its not bad at Bristol but not that bloody hot :ok: