Afghan UK troop withdrawl

[Spanish Waltzer]

British defence minister on Afghan visit calls for troop withdrawal
Posted: 22 May 2010 1531 hrs


Photos 1 of 1

William Hague




KABUL : Senior British officials, including new Foreign Secretary William Hague arrived in Afghanistan Saturday with a warning that Britain wants to withdraw its troops as soon as possible.

Hague, Defence Secretary Liam Fox and International Development Secretary Andrew Mitchell are set to meet President Hamid Karzai in their first visit to the country since a new coalition government took power in London this month.

Hague described Afghanistan -- where around 10,000 British troops are helping fight a Taliban-led insurgency well into its ninth year -- as "our most urgent priority" in comments released from London as the party touched down.

In an interview with The Times newspaper before arriving in Kabul, Fox made clear the visit would focus on speeding up the withdrawal of British troops from Afghanistan, and that no new troops would be deployed.

"We need to accept we are at the limit of numbers now and I would like the forces to come back as soon as possible," he was quoted as saying.

"We have to reset expectations and timelines.

"National security is the focus now. We are not a global policeman. We are not in Afghanistan for the sake of the education policy in a broken 13th-century country. We are there so the people of Britain and our global interests are not threatened," Fox said.

With Karzai having promised that Afghan forces will take on responsibility for the country's security by 2014, Fox said he would see if training could be accelerated to that end.

"I want to talk to people on the ground, our trainers, to see whether there is room to accelerate it without diminishing the quality," he said.

His frank comments came as Britain's defence ministry announced the death of a Royal Marine in southern Afghanistan on Friday, bringing to 286 the number of British soldiers killed in the country since 2001.

Since the overthrow of the Taliban regime in late 2001, a total of 1,778 foreign troops have died in the Afghan war, 1,081 of them from the US.

Britain is the second biggest provider of troops and aid to Afghanistan, behind the United States.

Fox also said British troops, stationed in southern Helmand province, would not relocate to neighbouring Kandahar, where the US is leading international forces in what they hope will be a final fight to eradicate the Taliban.

NATO -- which with the US has 130,000 troops in Afghanistan, due to peak at 150,000 by August -- announced Friday that about 8,000 British troops in Helmand are to come under US operational control.

The move is part of a restructuring of NATO forces in the volatile south of the country, the Taliban heartland where fighting is fiercest.

Command of forces in the south is being divided into two, NATO said in a statement. Britain's Major General Nick Carter will oversee Kandahar, with US Major General Richard Mills taking over command of neighbouring Helmand.

US and NATO troops are building up operations against the Taliban in Kandahar, with military planners saying they hope to have pushed the insurgents out of the city, and the province of which it is capital, by the time the fasting month of Ramadan starts in August.

Hague said before his arrival in Kabul that the new counter-insurgency strategy of General Stanley McChrystal, head of NATO forces in Afghanistan, needs "time and support to succeed".

"We are here in Afghanistan to explore this at the earliest opportunity," he said, adding that as a foreign policy priority, Afghanistan "will consume a lot of our time, energy and effort and it is therefore vital that ministers have a strong understanding of the issues".

The importance of Afghanistan to the new British administration was underscored last Saturday when Karzai became the first foreign leader to meet Prime Minister David Cameron.

Britain's new Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition government has said it wants to cut the defence budget by at least 25 percent but has pledged to support the country's armed forces in Afghanistan.


Just hot air or real changes ahead?

[whowhenwhy]

They need to make big cuts in public spending and HM forces get a lot of public spending. Bring the troops back quicker = more cuts sooner. Simples!

[MATELO]

Nothing new in this tbh.

Briefed a few months back by the Staish that this was going to happen no matter which party got in.

Timescales are very flexible though. ASAP could mean absolutely anything.

[Mr Grim]

Good news, Bad news for the army.

Good news if you are a junior type that has to patrol Helmandshire.

Bad news if you are an army general that is trying to push UK Defence policy along the lines of Afghanistan being the war for our generation / foreseeable future. Homeland defence needs some airpower and plenty of Naval power plus a small, flexible, deployable army. 130,000 suddenly looks far too big with 50,000 being more realistic. Some big savings indeed and suddenly the carriers look safe!

Discuss!

[whowhenwhy]

I think that 50 000 may be too far, but once Typhoon has sorted A-G I think that Tornado has had it's day. Carrier with Dave certainly safe, but please can we have the "right" version?!?! Just a hunch rather than science, but someone clever will come along soon to discuss in a more informed manner.

[minigundiplomat]

It has always been on the cards to withdraw British Forces from Helmandshire and Afghanistan. Nothing has changed, though I agree with the earlier post; cost cutting may have bumped the matter up the agenda.

[Squirrel 41]

Whowhenwhy suggested:

but once Typhoon has sorted A-G I think that Tornado has had it's day

Interesting. I would think that the better idea is to set a drop-dead OSD for the GR4, and fly the wings off the remaining jets, whether or not Tiffie gets A-G working properly. My thinking is three-fold:

(a) GR4 is supposedly half the cost per hour to operate than Typhoon (c. £40k vs c. £85k / hour IIRC), so wassing it about in Helmandshire is going to be a lot cheaper than Tiffie.

(b) Tiffie has to last. And last. And last some more. I heard a rumour that the Tranche 1s OSD was something that felt weirdly soon, like all Tranche 1s gone by 2020 (this is a rumour network - can anyone comment?).

IF this is true, then the Tiffie Tranche 2 and Tranche 3as (given that Tranche 3b is almost certainly dead from a UK perspective given the funding position) will have to make it beyond 2030 - possibly 2040. So stretching Tiffie Tranche 2 and Tranche 3a life is going to be very important down the road - not to be wasted in the 'Stan if there are serviceable (at least in a Tonka sense of the word..... :p) GR4s available.

(c) If you set a drop-dead OSD for GR4, you can then plan the number of crews required to OSD; and in particular, the number of WSO (Navs). Once you have this number plus a margin, you can close down the Nav training pipeline and save a pile more cash. (Sorry Navs). But before this descends into Nav-baiting, you may have to bribe some to stay in and flying... FRI for Navs? I wouldn't bet against it.

So on this basis, GR4 would soldier on in sandy places doing its current op job to 2020/25, and would in turn probably be replaced with a (small) JSF (Dave) fleet; preferably Dave-Cs.... :cool: I'm pro-Dave-C, but I'm also a fully paid up luddite member of the "Don't buy the Mark 1 of anything club", and would much rather the US invest the squillions to iron out the kinks in Dave before the UK buys any more.

It will be interesting to see what comes out of the defence and security review on this - if you were to significantly reduce the size of the FJ fleet, then you could stretch the hours on Tiffie and GR4 - further delaying the cost of bringing Dave into service.

All speculation and rumour, of course.

S41

[Diablo Rouge]

Afghan UK troop withdrawl

....is a good rumour to start! Its about time some other members of our planet took the reigns, and it sounds like 'London' may have at last smelt the coffee.

[Easy Street]

but once Typhoon has sorted A-G I think that Tornado has had it's day

Don't hold your breath waiting for a deployable Typhoon A-G capability. What caught my eye today was this:

Foreign Secretary William Hague, Defence Secretary Liam Fox and International Development Secretary Andrew Mitchell are set to meet President Hamid Karzai

It might just be that the incoming Government is going to apply equal importance to all 3 strands of the Comprehensive Approach (http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/BEE7F0A4-C1DA-45F8-9FDC-7FBD25750EE3/0/dcdc21_jdn4_05.pdf) - all 3 of the relevant secretaries are there together! This would make a refreshing change from the previous lot, where it sometimes seemed we had the 3 ministries effectively at loggerheads. It's time to repair the some of the damage suffered to the UK's credibility since the US overtook us as the COIN experts.

[NutLoose]

(a) GR4 is supposedly half the cost per hour to operate than Typhoon (c. £40k vs c. £85k / hour IIRC), so wassing it about in Helmandshire is going to be a lot cheaper than Tiffie.

Dare I put this in context by saying remember the Jaguar :p

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

(a) GR4 is supposedly half the cost per hour to operate than Typhoon (c. £40k vs c. £85k / hour IIRC), so wassing it about in Helmandshire is going to be a lot cheaper than Tiffie.



Interesting. Do you have a link to the Capitation Rates?

[vecvechookattack]

The capitation rates can be found on the MOD Intranet. They are not in the public domain.


I hope that this is a bad rumour and that we remain in Afghan until the job is completed. a Withdrawal of British troops would be disastrous for the Armed Forces.

[Pure Pursuit]

I completely disagree.

This is a war that we will not win. The country will ALWAYS be tribal and you can be rest assured that the population would default back to that lifestyle sooner rather than later after our withdrawal. AQ are all over the world and are already proving that they can operate without the sanctuary of Afghanistan.

To say that withdrawing would be bad for our armed forces suggests that staying at war is the only way to avoid huge cuts. Put another way, soldiers will continue to die in order to avoid cuts...

The MoD is Herrick centric with every penny heading that way at the moment. The consequences on long term procurement and strategy are horrendous. British forces need a break from ops. We are bankrupt and way off kilter. Some down time, reorganisation and respite are all loooong overdue.

We should leave as soon as possible and let NATO fall on its sword when nobody steps in to fill the vacuum in Helmand forcing the US to deploy even more troops.

[Roland Pulfrew]

1979 Conservatives return to govt. Announce the withdrawal of HMS Endurance, widely taken to have been one of the triggers the Argentine Govt used as a precursor to the invasion of the Falkland Islands.

Flash Forward to 2010 and some of our new elected and inexperienced politicians announce:

In an interview with The Times newspaper before arriving in Kabul, Fox made clear the visit would focus on speeding up the withdrawal of British troops from Afghanistan, and that no new troops would be deployed.

"We need to accept we are at the limit of numbers now and I would like the forces to come back as soon as possible," he was quoted as saying.

"We have to reset expectations and timelines.

And several hours later we get this:

Insurgents have attacked Nato's main military base in southern Afghanistan.

A Nato spokesman said Kandahar airfield had come under rocket and mortar fire, followed by a ground assault. Several Nato personnel were wounded.

Officials said the attackers had tried to get into the base, but were repelled by security forces.

It is the second attack on a major installation in the last few days - on Wednesday militants attacked the US military base at Bagram.

Nato also said that separate attacks in southern Afghanistan earlier on Saturday killed three Nato personnel and a civilian working with the military.

"Kandahar airfield came under indirect fire at approximately eight o'clock (1530 GMT) tonight and shortly afterward a ground attack was under way as well," Nato spokesman Lt Col Todd Vician told Reuters.

Three British cabinet ministers, led by Foreign Secretary William Hague, were due to visit the Kandahar base later but were forced to change their plans at the last minute because of the attack.

Nato said in a statement that no insurgents had managed to penetrate the base perimeter.

It added that "a number" of military and civilian personnel were wounded and were receiving medical treatment, but there were no confirmed fatalities.

Afghan contractors said five rockets struck the base, including one which hit the helicopter base and another which targeted a shopping area.

Lucian Read, a journalist at the site at the time of the attack, said people were told to get to bunkers, and that a loudspeaker announcement had warned of a ground attack.

The base, which sits on the edge of Kandahar city, the provincial capital, houses around 23,000 personnel and regularly comes under attack.

In an assault on Bagram base on Wednesday, an American contractor was killed in fighting that lasted several hours.

A day earlier, a Taliban suicide bomber had attacked a Nato convoy in the capital Kabul, killing 18 people including six Nato soldiers.

The Taliban recently announced a spring offensive against Nato forces and Afghan government troops.

Earlier on Saturday, Afghan police said they had found a cache of hundreds of rockets on the outskirts of Kabul. From:BBC News - Afghan insurgents attack key Nato base in Kandahar (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/10135441.stm)

Now I am not so naive as to believe that both are directly related in this case, but it just goes to show easy it can be to give succour to your enemy.

Also somewhat surprising that this attack, on a base with lots of British personnel and assets, is buried in the South Asia part of the BBC News website but is not mentioned in World or UK sections.

[TheSmiter]

Roland

The fact that this attack has been mentioned , albeit buried deep in the news vaults, probably tells us more about the inability of the BBC editorial team to recognise a story relevant to the British public than official news dampening. I could be wrong though. Who knows? :mad:

Vec me old Wokka mate, you reckon

we remain in Afghan until the job is completed

What job is that exactly?

If, like me, you've followed the official narrative on Afghanistan from Day 1 you'll have seen it morph from post 9-11 reaction into a counter narcotic stance into a highly optimistic anti terrorist / reconstruction / nation building position.

Now, I grant you, if all 3 Govt depts (Def / FO / DFID) had been singing from the same hymn sheet, been properly resourced, and we (UK) had also been in complete policy harmony with our coalition partners, then something akin to success may have been achieved. It hasn't so far and the message from Liam Fox:

"National security is the focus now. We are not a global policeman. We are not in Afghanistan for the sake of the education policy in a broken 13th-century country. We are there so the people of Britain and our global interests are not threatened,"

shouts the new Govt narrative loud and clear. Like Iraq we will slink away, claim a moral victory of sorts and concentrate on cutting the deficit.

Like you, I've invested personal time and energy both in Iraq and over Afghanistan and have lost friends and colleagues in both those theatres. I fully sympathise with your sentiments about seeing the job through, but mate, it ain't going to happen.

New Govt, new era. It's not going to be pretty for a decade or more.

Sorry. :{

[Kitbag]

Also somewhat surprising that this attack, on a base with lots of British personnel and assets, is buried in the South Asia part of the BBC News website but is not mentioned in World or UK sections

Perspective, not poor journalism. Probably because it's not news per se It happens regularly, like people being injured in RTCs in the UK.

From the report The base, which sits on the edge of Kandahar city, the provincial capital, houses around 23,000 personnel and regularly comes under attack.

[vecvechookattack]

British forces need a break from ops

What a ridiculous thing to say. No we do not need a break from Ops... Thats what we do. That is our job. We do not need a rest, break or holiday.

Because if we do then what are for and why are there so many of us...?

[Squirrel 41]

VecVec

The capitation rates can be found on the MOD Intranet. They are not in the public domain.

The numbers I put up were mentioned in the margins of a London conference, and mirror what I'd seen in the specialist press.

I am pleased to confirm that I did not get them from the MoD Intranet!

S41

[TheSmiter]

Kitbag

Perspective, not poor journalism. Probably because it's not news per se It happens regularly, like people being injured in RTCs in the UK.



Without wishing to go for an early bath and a Beadwindow card shoved in my face - I believe that rockets landing in your camp AND Terry knocking at the door with his AK is a little bit out of the norm - especially as he's been inviting himself round other NATO faclities in the last week. Allegedly.

Vexed

What a ridiculous thing to say. No we do not need a break from Ops... Thats what we do. That is our job.


You're not the new CDS are you? I'd follow you anywhere!

also

We do not need a rest, break or holiday.



Unless you're on one of the MoD's special Capability Breaks.

Having a great time, wish you were here.

And guess what - you may well be soon!

[vecvechookattack]

You're not the new CDS are you? I'd follow you anywhere!

And if you believe that we need a break from OPs and that we all need to come home for a bit of a rest and to put our feet up then you must be in the Royal Air Farce.

[Kitbag]

TS, accepted a bit out of the norm, but see here
???????????????????????????? (http://www.itv.com/News/Articles/Nato-repulses-major-Taliban-attack-223707838.html)

and here

Taliban attack Indian camp in Afghanistan, no casualties - South Asia - World - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/south-asia/Taliban-attack-Indian-camp-in-Afghanistan-no-casualties/articleshow/5782094.cms)

definitely not a first, although it maybe against Kandahar airfield. Also see here for what sort of things the military commanders have to balance all the time

Taliban allegedly planned attack on German camp | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 16.12.2009 (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5018633,00.html)

[wokawoka]

Vec,

Nobody takes your word seriously. Just wind your neck in and go and help out on Hover 1 or NAV 1 in LFA 9.

British troops don't need a break ......:ugh: Just go and have the same chat with The Rifles.... You ll be well received.

[vecvechookattack]

There you go... Wokawoka from Odiham....Now there's the sort of chap who wants to put his feet up and put those slippers on.

Take a rest shipmate.... but be careful you don't put yourself out of business.

[Stupidbutsaveable]

Vec

I don't often post, but you've got my goat. While I seldom get annoyed by your comments I find your input to this thread ignorant and crass. Have a word with yourself fella.:(

Stupid

[TEEEJ]

Squirrel 41 wrote

(b) Tiffie has to last. And last. And last some more. I heard a rumour that the Tranche 1s OSD was something that felt weirdly soon, like all Tranche 1s gone by 2020 (this is a rumour network - can anyone comment?).

The last word from Bob was OSD 2029 for Typhoon (Presumably Tranche 1s?)

House of Commons Hansard Written Answers for 15 Jan 2008 (pt 0013) (http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200708/cmhansrd/cm080115/text/80115w0013.htm)

House of Commons Written Answers 2 March 2009 (http://services.parliament.uk/hansard/Commons/ByDate/20090302/writtenanswers/part022.html)

TJ

[Royalistflyer]

I'm with Liam Fox, Afghanistan isn't going anywhere. We're not going to achieve anything by staying there. Lets just have a word with the Taliban, tell them we don't care how they run their 13th century country just so long as they don't let anyone use it as a base to attack us. If they do, we'll bomb the heck out of them.
We've got the experience there - enough to let us come home, digest it and get our forces properly sorted out for the future. Afghanistan does absolutely nothing for us now. The terrorists have long since moved to a decentralised, franchise base out of other countries - and it isn't operating too well.