Air India Express Crash

[Captnhappy]

CNN is reported that Air India Express with 165 Pax on board departed Dubai for Mangalore over shot the runway and sustained substancial Damage. Some fatalities.

[Duh]

Ab-initio is alive n well. Well, maybe not so alive. Hope the news changes to find survivors. Sad news for sure.

[Gear Down and Locked]

news reports no survivors. any idea of weather conditions at the time?

[rdr]

latest, 8 survivors. looks like a runway excursion on the landing run.

[Canuck15]

first of my condolences the the families .......its a sad thing to happen ....


how can AI Express official go on tv and say that its the pilots fault ......thats really disturbing ........

[AviatorVette]

RIP Air India passengers, extremely sad day.. It was a new 737-800 too...

[soaring.high]

Condolences to the families of the passengers and the crew who lost their lives in this unfortunate event.May thier souls rest in peace forever.:(

[TopTup]

My most sincere condolences to all.

Unlike the piece of dirt spokesperson let's all wait for the actual report based on FACTS to be published. From what I have dug up relating to wx & ops:

Mangalore Crash: Air India Express Boeing 737-800 | George Hatcher’s Air Flight Disaster (http://airflightdisaster.com/?p=9822)

R.I.P. but let's not ever forget.

[FlyingManutd]

Feel sorry for the family of Crew and Pax..condolence to all suffering people....may god bless them in this moment...hoping the error of this fatal accident doesnt get put on the head of cockpit crew...

The press conference on the part of AI was a shame and showed what real conditions prevail when day to day work conditions are folowed in this sick organisation..Mr Anup Srivastav happens to be an Ex-Director of Personel Dept of erstwhile IndianAirlines ,senior most Director and was removed from his post due to his mall practisess ...and considering he was giving an shock press conference to all grieving family and members ...he screwed it in big time just like he screwed Indian Airlines....he is the main man behind all Unionized strikes from past 5-6 yrs in old IC...

Dont know how long persons like this would continue to fool people of organization and India....

God bless the PAX and Crew.

[xuejiesandi]

Well this news is just a few days old...there were no Expats on board...ohhh I guess the aircraft was foreign :rolleyes:..

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/trainer-co-pilot-killed-in-air-crash-near-ujjain-26575.php

[Soap Box Cowboy]

Pretty telling of the kind of crew you find in India when "Highly experienced pilots" are those with 1000 hours in the air. They wouldn't let you even touch a caravan with those kind of hours in Africa. And we regularily fly in to far more demanding airfields.

From what I've heard the rush to fill seats is leading to an inevetable increase in accidents and incidents. Just look at Korean Air in the 80's. But I guess the bottom line is all that matters. :uhoh:

[shanx]

The most likely cause of this accident could be the FATIGUE factor.

The bean counters are solely responsible for playing with the lives of passengers by lobbying for increase in FDTL.

The paying passengers need to be seriously enlightened on how unsafe their flights are when the crews are stressed, frustrated (degrading T&Cs etc) and fatigued.

It is extremely alarming to even think of what we might expect in the near future, when we have pilots at the controls, who are drained, memotivated and frustrated because they had to pay for their type ratings, line training and to get a job !! :uhoh:

[samjetblaster]

I agree with you soap cow Boy.These days it is very easy to fly anything in this part of the world and Middle East with barely minimum hours.Even companies like Gulf Air,Emirates,Etihad,Oman Air,Qatar Airways and not to mention low cost carrier like Arabia,Jazeera,Fly Dubai, etc..Four years ago Gulf Air employed quite a few First officers from Belgium & France flying aircrafts like ATR 42,etc.,and they were automatically qualified to fly A330 & A320 .Now it's quantity not quality.:confused:

[drive73]

Lots of issues effect flying in india, from the poor conditions of the runways, poor atc facilities and a rapidly increasing strain on this system. It is easy to blame pilots as it takes the focus off the real issue a corrupt government who cares only about status and money. Ixe isn't a runway that would even stand out in alaska, central america, africa, south america and many other parts of the world, this pilot was both experienced with the field, india, and the jet. There is more to this story than what the indian media is broadcasting 10 min after the accident. Accidents are never caused by a single issue. Those who judge a pilots ability should look in the mirror, because noone is ammune to mistakes.

[HAWK21M]

Any professional would know not to believe what the media projects but rather believe the facts posted by an official Investigation.

[alouette3]

If this wasn't such a tragedy I would be laughing. To an outsider looking in (me) the hypocrisy displayed here is unbelievable. Since the Captain was an expat with thousands of hours we are being cautioned to "tread lightly" "wait for the report" "caused by a corrupt DGCA" "fatigue and stress" "overloaded infrastructure". If the poor guy had been an Indian national, there would have been no hesitation in rushing to judgment and talks about smoking holes would have reappeared with everyone saying "I told you so".
I know there will be a flurry of postings denying this but I am pretty sure there is a group of folks out there who are almost wishing that the Captain had been a national to prove their wild theories about incompetent Indian pilots and how Indian aviation can only be saved by British/ American/European/Australian expert expats.
You know who you are ,but go ahead and deny it. Right now, I am only concerned about the fact that a very experienced pilot was involved in a tragedy of such proportions.
RIP to all those who perished and my best to my friends and colleagues in AI and AI Express.

[shanx]

If the poor guy had been an Indian national, there would have been no hesitation in rushing to judgment and talks about smoking holes would have reappeared with everyone saying "I told you so".
I know there will be a flurry of postings denying this but I am pretty sure there is a group of folks out there who are almost wishing that the Captain had been a national to prove their wild theories about incompetent Indian pilots and how Indian aviation can only be saved by British/ American/European/Australian expert expats.

BRILLIANTLY PUT ! :ok:

Which is also the reason why there are hardly any responses by those very people who used to scream and warn about "smoking holes" very recently in certain threads in this forum.

I can not agree more with what our fellow member jimmygill had written sometime back.

SAFETY has VERY LITTLE to do with number of hours in a pilot's logbook.
How and where those hours came from is perhaps equally (or more) important.
Safety is not about 10,000+ hours (expat or Indian).
Safety is about the STANDARDS in place.
Safety is about ADHERING to the regulations and SOPs.
Safety is about not diluting standards or lowering the bar on quality.

A 250 hours CPL holder can very much be trained to be a good, safe, competent pilot of a transport jet if an organization invents enough resources on good training.

[Capt Apache]

If the poor guy had been an Indian national, there would have been no hesitation in rushing to judgment and talks about smoking holes would have reappeared with everyone saying "I told you so".



You are absolutely right.It was utterly disgusting and saddening to see people wishing for a disaster here.And one of the same people (a few posts above) cant stop giving condolences now.What a hypocrit.

[jetsreams]

There has been a lot of discussion in the media regarding foreign pilots (also known as “expat pilots”) in the aftermath of the tragic air accident at Mangalore. The Minister of Civil aviation, many bureaucrats, airline officials and even a few journalists have gone to great lengths to explain how experienced foreign pilots hired by Air India and private airlines are essential to the Indian aviation industry. A retired spokesperson of Air India, who has no business to speak on behalf of Air India anymore, has been repeatedly appearing on television to painstakingly explain how important foreign pilots are to the company. Clearly the air disaster at Mangalore with a foreign pilot at the controls has made a lot of powerful people worried .Very worried.

The point however is not whether foreigners should be allowed in Indian carriers or not. Some of them are highly experienced and respected professionals who have undoubtedly made a huge contribution to the Indian airline industry. This article is not about them. It is about a shady scheme of gargantuan proportions, backed by government policy and a well oiled system that feeds on unimaginable corruption, on a scale that would astonish every innocent fare paying air passenger.

Air India is a government run Public Sector Undertaking and thus, it is assumed that rules applicable to other government institutions meant to keep corruption under check would apply to it too. The Ministry of Defence, for example has strict rules debarring the involvement of private middlemen or brokers in facilitating defence contracts. Other ministries have strict guidelines on the recruitment of qualified personnel or consultants where a transparent tendering process has to be adhered to.

In the case of Air India and its subsidiary Air India Express, such rules do not seem to apply at all.

Some years ago, the ministry of civil aviation that ran erstwhile Air India and Indian Airlines, cooked up unrealistic passenger growth projections and placed massive aircraft orders for Air India and Indian Airlines. Private airlines only too eager to float shares to rake in public money and capitalise on the hype jumped in the bandwagon. Overnight, hundreds of vacancies for pilots were created.

Air India began hiring foreign pilots in 2003.Other reputed companies like Singapore Airlines and various Gulf Airlines such as Emirates, recruit foreign nationals too but with great transparency. Foreign pilots hired by them are a part of the regular workforce and are directly hired, without involving middlemen, on local terms. European airlines do not hire non EU nationals.

In Air India’s case, no global tenders were floated for foreign recruitment firms and no advertisements in newspapers announcing vacancies for foreign nationals appeared. Bureaucrats and officials in Air India, hand in glove with their counterparts and politicians in the Ministry of Civil Aviation, Ministry of Labour, Home Ministry, Ministry of External Affairs and other agencies hastily cleared the proposal to hire foreign nationals and the policy of recruiting foreign pilots was established. Politicians of opposition parties were roped in and a cosy arrangement was made.

To bypass opposition from its own employees and to circumvent elaborate transparent recruitment procedures and various laws, a defunct subsidiary, Air India Charters Ltd was revived and used as the vehicle to issue foreigners contracts. Hence the hundreds of foreign pilots in Air India and Air Express are routed through Air India Charters Ltd through recruitment firms and then using a legal loophole, deputed to Air India and Air India Express.

Private firms comprising middlemen and brokers, with the respectable title of “Aviation Consultants” were approached and many of these, such as Rishworth Aviation, Parc Aviation and scores of others appeared out of the wood work. Overnight, new consulting agencies sprang up, some in murky tax havens like the Isle of Man and Channel Islands. All suddenly began to offer “experienced” pilots from all parts of the world. Many of these foreign pilots had and continue to have no clear track record. Some claim to have thousands of hours of flying experience in countries as diverse as Russia and Rwanda. Some of the airlines and countries (such as Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia) that these pilots flew in do not even exist anymore. No background checks are carried out by either Air India or the Indian Government. Strangely the agency of middlemen, or “consultant” supplying the pilots, is entrusted with this task.

Lucrative contracts were tailor-made to lure foreign pilots in droves.
Decades of rules meant to harass Indian pilots such as stringent medical standards were waived off by the government for foreign pilots. Air India’s pilots who are Indian nationals, have to undergo a DGCA medical test known as a Class I medical examination and then are again subjected to an elaborate company medical test known as a Pre Employment Medical Examination (PEME).None of these apply to foreign nationals in India. For example, an Indian pilot may not be allowed fly an Indian passenger aircraft wearing a pacemaker but a foreigner most probably would because the medical standards in his country allow it. There have been cases where Indian pilots who are permanently medically grounded by Indian authorities get foreign citizenship and foreign licences and return to India to fly planes on “expat” terms. Atleast two such “foreign” pilots have served Air India on such a contract.

Infact foreign pilots flying Indian registered aircraft are not even required to have Indian flying licences! All they had to do is produce “proof “of experience and a foreign licence and the DGCA issues a “temporary authorisation”. Such “proof” of experience could be a fake certificate or a fake rubber stamp but nobody carries out a background check.
A foreign pilot is not legally answerable to the Indian DGCA since he does not have an Indian Licence. The DGCA can neither revoke nor suspend his flying licence. Technically, an Indian Co Pilot involved in a serious air accident may lose his flying licence and his job; whereas the pilot, if he is a foreigner can take the next flight home and start life on a clean slate!
To prevent the foreign pilots from coming under the ambit of direct taxes in India, the pilots are “officially” based in foreign countries such as Dubai and not given “local” terms of employment. Every month Air India pays the foreign recruitment agencies the salaries of these pilots along with a commission or “consultancy fees” to foreign bank accounts. This is turn trickles back to the various politicians and officials who patronise the system. Not surprisingly, a foreign pilot who recently approached Air India for a job recently was asked to route his application through a recruitment agency!

As a result , millions of dollars that would have normally gone back to the Indian Income Tax Department by deducting taxes at source (had these pilots been based in India) is diverted to foreign bank accounts in foreign countries.

“Liaison officers” and “advisors”, meant to “facilitate” business interests, are regularly appointed by these foreign recruitment agencies to “liaise” with the various ministries and departments. Two of Air India’s senior most executives from the finance department have retired in the past one year and have joined such firms as “liaison” officers. Another, a retired CMD, continues to show great personal interest in negotiating foreign pilots’ contracts on behalf of recruitment agencies.

Foreign pilots are provided better terms of employment causing demoralisation.They are given more leave, sometimes upto ten days in a month –with the justification that they need to go home to be with their families. Indian pilots flying for Air India Express are made to go on postings for fifteen days at a stretch and given one day off at their home base. Ironically these Indian pilots spend three to four days every month with their families and the foreigners (who could be from neighbouring Nepal or Dubai) spend more than a week to ten days every month on holiday.
Foreigners also get paid a higher salary and are entitled to five star hotel accommodations even when not flying. As a result, hundreds of hotel rooms are booked by Air India at exorbitant rates – a percentage of which presumably flows back to some officials.

This murky system in Air India of the past seven years ,quietly went unnoticed. As long as flights took off on time and passengers reached their destinations nobody really cared. Unions cried themselves hoarse- only to be drowned in the din of the money power of powerful lobbies and an ill informed media ,hesitant to upset a mega industry that generates lucrative advertisement revenue .

The air crash at Mangalore need not have necessarily been caused by an incompetent foreign pilot. This post is not meant to disrespect the majority of foreign pilots in India. But the larger issue of rampant corruption and greed must be addressed immediately. Little wonder that all the officials in the dishonest food chain are now working overtime to cover up the issue.The Minister of Civil Aviation,never one to miss a great media opportunity,rolled his sleeves up on tv and walked towards the wreckage site showing his willingness to lend a helping hand.Heart warming statements of sympathy and numerous compensation promises were made and the media lapped up every bit of it. The minister even offered to resign knowing very well that the Prime Minister could ill afford to lose a partner in a fragile coalition government.

Sadly the one hundred and fifty eight innocent people that have been killed cannot speak for themselves anymore.

Therefore we, the rest of the nation and the aviation world , must stand up in one voice to demand a federal criminal investigation to unravel the mess. We cannot afford to wait for another air disaster to prove the politicians, bureaucrats and officials wrong.

Because when a shady foreign pilot from a strange country with a dubious qualification or medical history actually crashes a plane in India, you and I could be passengers on it.

[jetsreams]

There has been a lot of discussion in the media regarding foreign pilots (also known as “expat pilots”) in the aftermath of the tragic air accident at Mangalore. The Minister of Civil aviation, many bureaucrats, airline officials and even a few journalists have gone to great lengths to explain how experienced foreign pilots hired by Air India and private airlines are essential to the Indian aviation industry. A retired spokesperson of Air India, who has no business to speak on behalf of Air India anymore, has been repeatedly appearing on television to painstakingly explain how important foreign pilots are to the company. Clearly the air disaster at Mangalore with a foreign pilot at the controls has made a lot of powerful people worried .Very worried.

The point however is not whether foreigners should be allowed in Indian carriers or not. Some of them are highly experienced and respected professionals who have undoubtedly made a huge contribution to the Indian airline industry. This article is not about them. It is about a shady scheme of gargantuan proportions, backed by government policy and a well oiled system that feeds on unimaginable corruption, on a scale that would astonish every innocent fare paying air passenger.

Air India is a government run Public Sector Undertaking and thus, it is assumed that rules applicable to other government institutions meant to keep corruption under check would apply to it too. The Ministry of Defence, for example has strict rules debarring the involvement of private middlemen or brokers in facilitating defence contracts. Other ministries have strict guidelines on the recruitment of qualified personnel or consultants where a transparent tendering process has to be adhered to.

In the case of Air India and its subsidiary Air India Express, such rules do not seem to apply at all.

Some years ago, the ministry of civil aviation that ran erstwhile Air India and Indian Airlines, cooked up unrealistic passenger growth projections and placed massive aircraft orders for Air India and Indian Airlines. Private airlines only too eager to float shares to rake in public money and capitalise on the hype jumped in the bandwagon. Overnight, hundreds of vacancies for pilots were created.

Air India began hiring foreign pilots in 2003.Other reputed companies like Singapore Airlines and various Gulf Airlines such as Emirates, recruit foreign nationals too but with great transparency. Foreign pilots hired by them are a part of the regular workforce and are directly hired, without involving middlemen, on local terms. European airlines do not hire non EU nationals.

In Air India’s case, no global tenders were floated for foreign recruitment firms and no advertisements in newspapers announcing vacancies for foreign nationals appeared. Bureaucrats and officials in Air India, hand in glove with their counterparts and politicians in the Ministry of Civil Aviation, Ministry of Labour, Home Ministry, Ministry of External Affairs and other agencies hastily cleared the proposal to hire foreign nationals and the policy of recruiting foreign pilots was established. Politicians of opposition parties were roped in and a cosy arrangement was made.

To bypass opposition from its own employees and to circumvent elaborate transparent recruitment procedures and various laws, a defunct subsidiary, Air India Charters Ltd was revived and used as the vehicle to issue foreigners contracts. Hence the hundreds of foreign pilots in Air India and Air Express are routed through Air India Charters Ltd through recruitment firms and then using a legal loophole, deputed to Air India and Air India Express.

Private firms comprising middlemen and brokers, with the respectable title of “Aviation Consultants” were approached and many of these, such as Rishworth Aviation, Parc Aviation and scores of others appeared out of the wood work. Overnight, new consulting agencies sprang up, some in murky tax havens like the Isle of Man and Channel Islands. All suddenly began to offer “experienced” pilots from all parts of the world. Many of these foreign pilots had and continue to have no clear track record. Some claim to have thousands of hours of flying experience in countries as diverse as Russia and Rwanda. Some of the airlines and countries (such as Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia) that these pilots flew in do not even exist anymore. No background checks are carried out by either Air India or the Indian Government. Strangely the agency of middlemen, or “consultant” supplying the pilots, is entrusted with this task.

Lucrative contracts were tailor-made to lure foreign pilots in droves.
Decades of rules meant to harass Indian pilots such as stringent medical standards were waived off by the government for foreign pilots. Air India’s pilots who are Indian nationals, have to undergo a DGCA medical test known as a Class I medical examination and then are again subjected to an elaborate company medical test known as a Pre Employment Medical Examination (PEME).None of these apply to foreign nationals in India. For example, an Indian pilot may not be allowed fly an Indian passenger aircraft wearing a pacemaker but a foreigner most probably would because the medical standards in his country allow it. There have been cases where Indian pilots who are permanently medically grounded by Indian authorities get foreign citizenship and foreign licences and return to India to fly planes on “expat” terms. Atleast two such “foreign” pilots have served Air India on such a contract.

Infact foreign pilots flying Indian registered aircraft are not even required to have Indian flying licences! All they had to do is produce “proof “of experience and a foreign licence and the DGCA issues a “temporary authorisation”. Such “proof” of experience could be a fake certificate or a fake rubber stamp but nobody carries out a background check.
A foreign pilot is not legally answerable to the Indian DGCA since he does not have an Indian Licence. The DGCA can neither revoke nor suspend his flying licence. Technically, an Indian Co Pilot involved in a serious air accident may lose his flying licence and his job; whereas the pilot, if he is a foreigner can take the next flight home and start life on a clean slate!
To prevent the foreign pilots from coming under the ambit of direct taxes in India, the pilots are “officially” based in foreign countries such as Dubai and not given “local” terms of employment. Every month Air India pays the foreign recruitment agencies the salaries of these pilots along with a commission or “consultancy fees” to foreign bank accounts. This is turn trickles back to the various politicians and officials who patronise the system. Not surprisingly, a foreign pilot who recently approached Air India for a job recently was asked to route his application through a recruitment agency!

As a result , millions of dollars that would have normally gone back to the Indian Income Tax Department by deducting taxes at source (had these pilots been based in India) is diverted to foreign bank accounts in foreign countries.

“Liaison officers” and “advisors”, meant to “facilitate” business interests, are regularly appointed by these foreign recruitment agencies to “liaise” with the various ministries and departments. Two of Air India’s senior most executives from the finance department have retired in the past one year and have joined such firms as “liaison” officers. Another, a retired CMD, continues to show great personal interest in negotiating foreign pilots’ contracts on behalf of recruitment agencies.

Foreign pilots are provided better terms of employment causing demoralisation.They are given more leave, sometimes upto ten days in a month –with the justification that they need to go home to be with their families. Indian pilots flying for Air India Express are made to go on postings for fifteen days at a stretch and given one day off at their home base. Ironically these Indian pilots spend three to four days every month with their families and the foreigners (who could be from neighbouring Nepal or Dubai) spend more than a week to ten days every month on holiday.
Foreigners also get paid a higher salary and are entitled to five star hotel accommodations even when not flying. As a result, hundreds of hotel rooms are booked by Air India at exorbitant rates – a percentage of which presumably flows back to some officials.

This murky system in Air India of the past seven years ,quietly went unnoticed. As long as flights took off on time and passengers reached their destinations nobody really cared. Unions cried themselves hoarse- only to be drowned in the din of the money power of powerful lobbies and an ill informed media ,hesitant to upset a mega industry that generates lucrative advertisement revenue .

The air crash at Mangalore need not have necessarily been caused by an incompetent foreign pilot. This post is not meant to disrespect the majority of foreign pilots in India. But the larger issue of rampant corruption and greed must be addressed immediately. Little wonder that all the officials in the dishonest food chain are now working overtime to cover up the issue.The Minister of Civil Aviation,never one to miss a great media opportunity,rolled his sleeves up on tv and walked towards the wreckage site showing his willingness to lend a helping hand.Heart warming statements of sympathy and numerous compensation promises were made and the media lapped up every bit of it. The minister even offered to resign knowing very well that the Prime Minister could ill afford to lose a partner in a fragile coalition government.

Sadly the one hundred and fifty eight innocent people that have been killed cannot speak for themselves anymore.

Therefore we, the rest of the nation and the aviation world , must stand up in one voice to demand a federal criminal investigation to unravel the mess. We cannot afford to wait for another air disaster to prove the politicians, bureaucrats and officials wrong.

Because when a shady foreign pilot from a strange country with a dubious qualification or medical history actually crashes a plane in India, you and I could be passengers on it.

[Vertical Freedom]

Jetstream repeating yourself wont help, we got your valid point 1st time, thanks. Condolences to the Families & Crew. Aum Shanti Shanti Shanti

[rspilot]

I belive that a Ten Thousand hour pilot can make a mistake as easily as a low time pilot. I disagree that a 250 hour pilot can be trained to be just as safe.

Two Hundred Fifty hour pilot has not the experience to react immediately when something is wrong. If an experienced captain makes a mistake it could very easily go undetected to a Two Hundred Fifty hour pilot.

If things are going downhill fast in a heavy workload I don't imagine a Two Hundred Fifty hour pilot taking the controls and saving the day.
If a nearly four thousand hour first officer wasn't help in this accident than what would the two hundred fifty hour pilot have done?

I believe that with all the experience in the world, sometimes people are just human and makes mistakes. It is unfortunate that in our line of work people pay dearly for it.

Instead of using this forum as a way to push your political agenda maybe we should hope comfort and healing for all involved and may all passenger and crew lost rest in peace.

[Aeronotix]

Jetscreams, to add credence to your point the other day a prominent news channel in its panel discussion mentioned that the immediate ex CMD of AI runs a London based recruitment agency supplying pilots to AI.

[leftseatview]

jetscreams i agree....crew and aircraft leasing are a can of worms waiting to be opened.
Perhaps thats what the Air India unions want to bring to everyones attention.
Why should there be a gag order if everything is in order.

[jimmygill]

I belive that a Ten Thousand hour pilot can make a mistake as easily as a low time pilot. I disagree that a 250 hour pilot can be trained to be just as safe.

I am sure you must be having some definition of 'safe' here, would you please share?

In my humble opinion a 2500 hrs Captain and 300 hrs F/O crew can be just as safe as a highly experienced crew, if they utilize safe and defensive ADM consistently. The requirement from the crew is to be aware of the limitations of skill-sets they have and use this information in the ADM process.

If safety cannot be enhanced by training, do you think how experienced pilots learn is largely a hit and trial affair?

If things are going downhill fast in a heavy workload I don't imagine a Two Hundred Fifty hour pilot taking the controls and saving the day.
If a nearly four thousand hour first officer wasn't help in this accident than what would the two hundred fifty hour pilot have done?

Inductive reasoning, trying to justify generality by a single example is one of the most common mistakes in reasoning, which posters in this forum seems to be having.
You are citing a hypothetical case here, as of fact we are not aware of what went in this crash, did the f/o help or not, was he in a position of helping or not.. Even if we were aware, generalisations will be of no productive use.

Just to counter your reasoning, I could cite 100s of cases when low experienced crew would have executed a missed and avoided all the TV and Media attention. Of course we would not be talking about them, aren't we just the carbon copy of the media which we always keep blaming of sensationalism.

If you go around with open eyes you will find so many examples, even statistical examples where low experienced crew has fared consistently well on safety standards. Of course, when this crew gains experience, we lose data points from our statistics.


I believe that with all the experience in the world, sometimes people are just human and makes mistakes. It is unfortunate that in our line of work people pay dearly for it.

Humans make mistake, mistakes cost dearly, and thats why we study human factors, and evolve procedures, policies and equipments to minimize these mistakes.

But cutting short a DME arc approach, then ending up high on the ILS, resulting in a 360 on final causing a stall and crash is not 'human error' its criminal negligence when carrying several scores of passengers.

Flying is not a natural activity to human beings, a safe pilot is a product of training alone, good training can improve safety considerably and if complemented with refined cockpit procedures, immaculate discipline and active monitoring safety standards can be improved without resorting to the need of 'experience'.

Good training is costly. Commercial flying is a commercial activity, and airlines never want to spend too much money. In different regions of the world they adopt different tricks to avoid these costs.

In USA its the 'filter' of general aviation. Throw the pilot in general aviation and if he gets incident free first couple thousand hrs then hire him. Serves as a good filter. Only that safety is not proactively taught, its left on the pilot and his autodidact capabilities to learn being safe, and pilots are not too bad, in fact they are good and they learn to be safe.

In countries where general aviation is not present to pay this 'blood tax' of safety, for example Singapore, at least one airline has developed great cadet pilot programs which disproves the criticism of the 250 hrs pilots in airliner seats.

So yes, a 250 hrs pilots can be trained to a better than acceptable safety levels for airline operations, thats a fact.

And all those more experienced guys who believe that a young cadet can't be trained to such levels are living in a daily make believe world. After every flight they think they are safer because they have more hours and conveniently ignore the role played by their own active learning, which is much more than just the flight hours in the logbook.

In a country like India, where there is little GA, military flying of questionable safety standards, murky airline training, nepotism and corruption in crew selection, fraud maintenance practices, bureaucratic ATC and incapable regulator, aviation safety is left to prayers only.

[rspilot]

Well than I stand corrected....lets load up the cockpits with 250 hour wonder pilots.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[itsbrokenagain]

jimmy again you need education my friend...

"In USA its the 'filter' of general aviation. Throw the pilot in general aviation and if he gets incident free first couple thousand hrs then hire him. Serves as a good filter."


In a normal aviation developed country GA is NOT used as 'filter'. Its used to gain EXPERIENCE, normal progression like car driving, you don't learn to drive in a 18 wheeler semi trailer do you? No you start in a car and progress... get in the game my friend, don't sit on the sidelines and comment like this.... if you do want to comment, get some experience.

PS Europe has no GA 'filter' just like India and they have a great safety record... oh wait they have a competent aviation authority who has recognized this and setup the pilot training so people can sit right seat in a B777 with 250hrs.

[alouette3]

In a country like India, where there is little GA, military flying of questionable safety standards,

Jimmy,
You certainly need an education.If the airlines had the resources to conduct training for cadets like the IAF/IN does,there would be no discussion about 250 hour F/Os here. After all, the IAF takes a 20 year old,puts him through a rigorous training program and turns him loose in a million dollar aircraft (fighters/attack aircraft/transport/helicopters) and they succeed. Admittedly, their flying is highly supervised and mentored.But to claim that the military has questionable safety standards is laughable.
Maybe you do need to sit this one out.
Alt3.

[jimmygill]

@rspilot
Well than I stand corrected....lets load up the cockpits with 250 hour wonder pilots.

When you used the words "be just as safe", I thought you had some real measure of 'safe'-ness with, banging your head on the wall three times doesn't help expressing that measure.


@itsbrokenagain
If I need education I am getting it everyday.

As for you car and 18 wheeler analogy, if I have resources I will learn on the 18 wheeler instead. It does help to know how to drive a car, but it is not necessary. And amongst my colleagues I know of at least three cases where they got the 737 P1/P2 positions before getting their car driving licenses.

What is norm, may not be universally true.

Performance in GA is used as a filter, a GA pilot with a runway incursion in his airman file will have little chances of getting interviewed. Of course GA serves as a learning experience too. In GA pilots reputation flies faster than the pilot.

PS Europe has no GA 'filter' just like India and they have a great safety record... oh wait they have a competent aviation authority who has recognized this and setup the pilot training so people can sit right seat in a B777 with 250hrs.

Exactly my point. Good training can replace 'experience'. Or putting it another way, good training can result in skill acquisition at enhanced rate.
I do agree with you that Europe has a competent regulator except for the bull **** they have in the theory exams.

Lets say two pilots A and B, both have 1500 hrs each, how do you determine which one is safer? If you can answer this question, you know in your heart thats hours don't make much difference. But still there is something which is compelling you not to believe it.


@alouette3
Read this report for yourself, one of the very few accidents caused by IAF pilots investigated in civil domain.
http://dgca.nic.in/accident/reports/VT-XRM.pdf
After reading this report you will understand what I mean by questionable.
And there are reasons why I don't need to sit this 'laughable' belief out. If you have experience of INA/IF you will understand what laughable means when you look at their washout techniques of training.


If the airlines had the resources to conduct training for cadets like the IAF/IN does,there would be no discussion about 250 hour F/Os here.


My education continues.

We all know IAF/IN have unaccountable access to the taxpayers pockets. But the question "If the airlines had resources.." needs further analysis.

An Airbus 320 costs around 80m USD. By most generous accounting in the price of one plane a set of 500 crew can be provided with T/R and at least 4 years of recurrent training sessions.

But no, airlines don't have funds and they will love to hire Pay to Fly cadets.


A properly utilised B737-800, will close nearly 1 billion passenger miles in 5 year (the normal contract period for self type rated Pilots in India). A crew of 10 will be more than sufficient to keep it flying. 200,000 USD per cadet pilot program will only result in cost of 2 USD per 1000 miles to passenger. Do you think the passenger is unwilling to pay this additional money for a better and safe cadet pilot training program?

Do you still believe airlines don't have the resources?



Thank you gentlemen, you all are wonderful and do keep helping in my education.

[Capt Apache]

You are citing a hypothetical case here, as of fact we are not aware of what went in this crash, did the f/o help or not, was he in a position of helping or not..


By using the word helping do you imply the Fo was PNF ?

[TopTup]

At the risk of upsetting some egos here, it is not about how great you are or were. Also, it is not about nationality (although this will shatter the backbone of the many, many xenophobic attitudes in Indian Aviation).

From my direct experience as a TRE at AI (on the 777) we must look at the SYSTEM that is in place there:

1. Rampant corruption.
2. Non-existant training standards: some pilots were failed in the sim yet that paperwork was either doctored to reflect a pass, or, the TRE was called in the justify the fail and pressured to change it to a pass, or, the failed pilot was sent on a route check to DXB within days and passed by his "batch mate", or the said failed pilot bribes for the pass. (All FACTS from my direct experience).
3. Technical exam answers are all known and shared by sms or other means.
4. Ab initio pilots coming from C152 or C210 direct to RHS of B777 without the ground instruction or handling to appreciate what V1 is let alone fly straight and level on downwind for a raw data circuit and approach, let alone land from (raw data) a stable approach, and checked to line by the TRE.
5. All but non existent CRM (mainly) from senior Capts reveling in the archaic bastardry days of a former military existence.
6. FO's too scared, too poorly trained, too inexperienced to challenge a Capt.
7. Capt's too poorly trained to listen to an FO, too ignorant to the low standards they exist within and are promoted from.
8. AI recruitment department not doing their own due diligence on the (expat) pilots that are employed (flying experience and credentials) instead relying on unscrupulous agencies.
9. Sim assessments, line route checks, instrument renewals are more often than not filled out (pass) prior to even beginning the sim or push-back.
10, Sim instructors arriving for the sim over 1.5 hrs late, no briefing, no pre-planned sortie, and only perhaps a block of 2 hrs used form the paid for 4 hours at the 9W sim.
11. Incoherent paperwork that is more important than safety, than standards, than, well, logic.
12. Sim assessment paperwork fraudulently completed: indicating patterns flown, approaches safely completed, (multiple) failures satisfactorilly completed when none were actually performed at all let alone to the safe standard needed (and this includes the CRM component).

So, let's PLEASE stop looking at who is the best stick and rudder pilot, who is the best user of automation, who is the ace of all bases.... Look at the SYSTEM and the airline ENVIRONMENT that allows and promotes despicably low standards and training standards far, far lower than what (we) are accustomed to in other airlines. For example; why only consider the pilot who cannot fly straight and level, or land a raw data approach with a 15 kt crosswind? [U]We should be looking at, scutinising and criticising the training system he/she has come from to allow this, let alone that he/she is then released to line.

These pilots are passed / checked to line. They know no better and believe this is the norm for international or heavy jet aviation. So, when (foreigners) openly question this or expose such issues they are shouted down with great passion due an ill-gotten national pride in their airline (and we can all be guilty of that).

[U]Look at the entire AI / AIE system, training standards and culture.

End quote.

Now, watch the knives of denial come out.... Apache: I assume you are referring to me? Find ONE, just ONE post where I have ever wished for a "smoking hole". I have attempted to exposed the truth and FACTS as I witnessed and have evidence of. I wish for pathetics like you to be given the training you are entitled to. Show just a hint of integrity instead of your usual Goebels like posts of India invented the Earth. You have just reached lower than low to attempt to gain benign points from such a disaster. Expat, local, dog, cat or panda bear; the SYSTEM is the culprit to deny ALL the minimum standards they seek and are entitled to.

I know journalists and regulators read this, hence why I often post.

May I throw the same (well put Allouette3) argument back? Are you (all) happy that it was an expat Capt as opposed to a local? I am personally devastated that some fellow airman, crew and passnegers lost their lives. I relish in NOTHING but despise the attitudes like those exposed here, more often than not from pre-pubescent children and xenophobic agendas commenting on racial grounds other than FACT.

They were our colleagues and had the name "pilot" associated with their name. That should be all.

Show some respect. Some fellow airmen just died. So, as I said before: Rest In Peace, but let's not ever forget.

[Capt Apache]

Show just a hint of integrity instead of your usual Goebels like posts of India invented the Earth


Well Sir Atleast I have not been writing the same things in the last 100 posts I posted.I never said India invented anything.It was Einstein who said India was the birthplace of mathematics.And there are references on how to make an aircraft engine in an ancient manuscript

[Wannabe Flyer]

Top Tup

Thank you for the insight. I am sure it has been viewed by the media...;) now what remains is to see if the truth will come out!

My :mad: is bigger than your :mad:............ will never help anyone


What led to Air India strike? (http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/what-led-to-air-india-strike-27847.php)

See what led these guys to strike............if this is the case then it is really shocking. :(

[TopTup]

Wannabe: Thanks for the link. Good to see some backbone being shown at AI. I will admit to some relief and sincere professional happiness that someone (or group) at last has said "ENOUGH!" And yes, it really is that shocking. You will NEVER see me or my own on a VT registered aircraft.

Apache: I could post the same thing another 1000 times but blindfolded ignorance like yours will never be reasoned with. Revel in your lust of self deluded standards. As I have said to you in the past: stay lucky because safety is not a wanted part of your skill set.

[Capt Apache]

I could post the same thing another 1000 times


O Im sure you will Sir.That goes without saying.

Im also quite surprised at your sudden 'professional happiness'...About 2 posts ago you were quite convinced (and were convincing others) that nothing will change ...It is such pessimism that is a Shame, not my skills of which you know nothing.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Good to see some backbone being shown at AITop Tup

Back bone by who? In my opinion both the management and the staff are to blame. I dont think the engineers in my opinion are correct and it seems to be an ego issue.

From what you have posted earlier regarding fudging of papers and falsification of documents I think you are bang on in describing a culture of lies and deceit which is prevalent in India across sectors, because Perjury is not a punishable of fence (though a recent case the judge did a brilliant ting by screwing a Liar! Hope it goes somewhere).

My opinion they all need to be taught a good lesson by the consumers. If 20,000 go unemployed for a while the reality will show up and if the Airline gets auctioned off to the private sector the country will benefit in the long run.

will NEVER see me or my own on a VT registered aircraft.By that is you mean AI then fair enough I have been following this policy for many years. However I still love 9W and the Beer Baron!

[TopTup]

Wannabe: Am only going on the link you sent so really haven't the knowledge to comment further.... But if this draws attention to real goings on then all the better. Enjoy your beer! :ok:

Apache: see the time and date of the post vs the time and date of the link being read. Idiot. And you claim to have the intelligence to pilot an aircraft? You scare me to even navigate a calculator. :ugh: That post of mine was cut and pasted from the Rumors and News Forum some days ago. Check it out. Believe it or not there are other countries and personnel involved with aviation outside of your sand box. If you want to comment from an informed (175 hrs ?? :D) perspective regarding the AIE crash then do so. Otherwise my arguing with you is, well, boring.

[Capt Apache]

will NEVER see me or my own on a VT registered aircraft


Jimmy mentioned Inductive Reasoning earlier...This statement is one more example...And these are the people who wanted to teach us common sense not so long ago.

[Wannabe Flyer]

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/416222-flash-strike-ai-truth-will-set-you-free.html

Top Tup

Some reading for you to decipher. Since you have prior working experience with AI am sure you will be able to add your 2 pennies

Yes will enjoy that beer on my Next KF (which i am getting to sample their First product in Long Haul Yipee, heard they have a bar on board). Will review that and hope the PIC does not spill my beer :ok:

[Capt Apache]

NOTHING WILL CHANGE. And that is the saddest part of this entire accident.

No one will willfully open the can of worms and expose what goes on there. AI will have to be opened and investigated thoroughly. It won't happen.


You posted this 2 days ago....Dont you think Thats pessimistic.

So what has changed? Nothing. What will change? Nothing. I'll bet that my reports and paperwork were or either are burnt, lost or at the bottom of one of the many rooms packed 6+ ft high, wrapped in pink ribbon.

Has it occurred to you.May be you didnt try hard enough...Or were you not smart enough to change things....Now you are sitting somewhere hoping that the media will read your posts and calling me an idiot when you know nothing about me.

[fullforward]

TopTup wrote:

"

Copied from Rumors & News Forum

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the risk of upsetting some egos here, it is not about how great you are or were. Also, it is not about nationality (although this will shatter the backbone of the many, many xenophobic attitudes in Indian Aviation).

From my direct experience as a TRE at AI (on the 777) we must look at the SYSTEM that is in place there:

1. Rampant corruption.
2. Non-existant training standards: some pilots were failed in the sim yet that paperwork was either doctored to reflect a pass, or, the TRE was called in the justify the fail and pressured to change it to a pass, or, the failed pilot was sent on a route check to DXB within days and passed by his "batch mate", or the said failed pilot bribes for the pass. (All FACTS from my direct experience).
3. Technical exam answers are all known and shared by sms or other means.
4. Ab initio pilots coming from C152 or C210 direct to RHS of B777 without the ground instruction or handling to appreciate what V1 is let alone fly straight and level on downwind for a raw data circuit and approach, let alone land from (raw data) a stable approach, and checked to line by the TRE.
5. All but non existent CRM (mainly) from senior Capts reveling in the archaic bastardry days of a former military existence.
6. FO's too scared, too poorly trained, too inexperienced to challenge a Capt.
7. Capt's too poorly trained to listen to an FO, too ignorant to the low standards they exist within and are promoted from.
8. AI recruitment department not doing their own due diligence on the (expat) pilots that are employed (flying experience and credentials) instead relying on unscrupulous agencies.
9. Sim assessments, line route checks, instrument renewals are more often than not filled out (pass) prior to even beginning the sim or push-back.
10, Sim instructors arriving for the sim over 1.5 hrs late, no briefing, no pre-planned sortie, and only perhaps a block of 2 hrs used form the paid for 4 hours at the 9W sim.
11. Incoherent paperwork that is more important than safety, than standards, than, well, logic.
12. Sim assessment paperwork fraudulently completed: indicating patterns flown, approaches safely completed, (multiple) failures satisfactorilly completed when none were actually performed [u]at all[u] let alone to the safe standard needed (and this includes the CRM component).

So, let's PLEASE stop looking at who is the best stick and rudder pilot, who is the best user of automation, who is the ace of all bases.... Look at the SYSTEM and the airline ENVIRONMENT that allows and promotes despicably low standards and training standards far, far lower than what (we) are accustomed to in other airlines. For example; why only consider the pilot who cannot fly straight and level, or land a raw data approach with a 15 kt crosswind? We should be looking at, scutinising and criticising the training system he/she has come from to allow this, let alone that he/she is then released to line.

These pilots are passed / checked to line. They know no better and believe this is the norm for international or heavy jet aviation. So, when (foreigners) openly question this or expose such issues they are shouted down with great passion due an ill-gotten national pride in their airline (and we can all be guilty of that).

Look at the entire AI / AIE system, training standards and culture.

End quote.

Now, watch the knives of denial come out.... Apache: I assume you are referring to me? Find ONE, just ONE post where I have ever wished for a "smoking hole". I have attempted to exposed the truth and FACTS as I witnessed and have evidence of. I wish for pathetics like you to be given the training you are entitled to. Show just a hint of integrity instead of your usual Goebels like posts of India invented the Earth. You have just reached lower than low to attempt to gain benign points from such a disaster. Expat, local, dog, cat or panda bear; the SYSTEM is the culprit to deny ALL the minimum standards they seek and are entitled to.

I know journalists and regulators read this, hence why I often post.

May I throw the same (well put Allouette3) argument back? Are you (all) happy that it was an expat Capt as opposed to a local? I am personally devastated that some fellow airman, crew and passnegers lost their lives. I relish in NOTHING but despise the attitudes like those exposed here, more often than not from pre-pubescent children and xenophobic agendas commenting on racial grounds other than FACT.

They were our colleagues and had the name "pilot" associated with their name. That should be all.

Show some respect. Some fellow airmen just died. So, as I said before: Rest In Peace, but let's not ever forget. "

Unfortunately, more smoking holes will came before any effective action be taken. This is just the beginning.

[Capt Apache]

One can't dispute anything Top Tup has said about AI (And that is why I haven't disputed anything on that front).Having said that I don't share the same collective pessimism on anything and everything INDIAN (like I won't ever fly VT registered aircraft crap) Not to mention the Nostradamus like predictions of Indian planes falling out of the sky......Coming Soon....Crap...Inductive Reasoning...Very well said.
.


Are you (all) happy that it was an expat Capt as opposed to a local?


I thought that the crew has a collective responsibility on Safety issues.So if and only if (And I hope that is not the case) it is infact a human error the crew would be held responsible (Not just an expat).Right ?

[Kalistan]

ff, we are all sad that our fellow aviators whether foreign and local had met a sad end. Heartfelt condolences to their families. I agree that the system fail them in some ways. It is corrupt and contribute to many ills in the aviation scene in India.

However it is undeniable that many expat pilots come to Asia with the attitude that we owe them a job and every Asian pilot is below them in skill in every way. Whenever an Asian pilot made a mistake, the gloating by foreign pilots was unbearable with aspersions and insinuations cast far and wide. When a Caucasian pilot make mistakes, the loud chorus of denial and excuses is thundering. You just got to scour this forum for evidence of this, with a real sense of natural justice and non prejudice.

[TopTup]

Apache, did you blindly regurgitate something written by someone else or do you really have ANY idea what inductive reasoning is?

"Traveling to Afghanistan is dangerous." - This is inductive reasoning. It is a statement that cannot be predicated completely by fact but is based on overall and logical series of facts. "The premises of an inductive logical argument indicate some degree of support (inductive probability) for the conclusion but do not entail it."

I am quite sure that some areas or regions are or can be OK, but by and large risk is involved. Inductive reasoning dictates that ALL areas of Afghanistan are dangerous. Where is this conclusion drawn? From factual reporting, eye witness accounts and hence an informed public opinion. But, it CANNOT by definition and just common damn logic cover ALL cases, ALL aspects and ALL areas of Afghanistan. Strong (!!) probability is therefore the decider. This is what gives the statement it's credibility.

So, is AI [B]safe? In my opinion, (my inductive reasoning) from my direct observation, NO. Are there some good / very good pilots at AI? My experience is, yes there are. By and large, is the overall situation of Indian Aviation (VT reg) safe? Are you more likely to have a poorly trained crew where standards have not been maintained (refer previous posts)? YES! So, my use of inductive reasoning to minimise risk to me or my own I believe is justified. Likelihood favors the negative aspects of safety.

So, my inductive reasoning is well warranted and I earnt the right to do so.

Just go to the more global Rumors and News forum to see what a wider (global!) audience has witnessed and understands about the present situation of Indian aviation, from ATC to structure to crewing. This may ask you to widen your horizons. Be careful!

Didn't try hard enough? Well apart from being insulting in the extreme it demonstrates your short temper and frustrations to strike out without the need for fact. Belligerent attitudes like yours, inherent corruption, blind mismanagement and raw incompetence was far too strong to fight against. Look at your hard-nosed stubborn attitude! Now, multiply that by years of systemic corruption, low standards and arrogance by an entire airline department of grown men in charge and you may get a small indication of the system you are so proud to defend. So, I left. You see nothing wrong and hence nothing needs to be fixed. Every system to do with safety needs constant scrutiny: it's called dynamic thinking to always work towards WBP (World's Best Practice) ideologies. It takes humility. Learn it.

[Capt Apache]

Dear Top Tup

When an archer misses his target he looks within and seeks to find the cause of failure in himself.Kindly look within.May be you didn't try hard enough or May be you were not smart enough.

If you think that going to Afghanistan is the same as flying on VT a/c then you are beyond all logic as a majority of Indian pilots are very well trained.There are some idiots but you will always find them in any sample of population.

I think you were pretty dumb in the first place to go to AI without doing any due diligence.What did your agent tell you,"This is the best airline in the world" You are nothing but a disgruntled employee.Instead of saying that some specific people were unprofessional, you are saying this whole country is full of **** pilots.You changed nothing while you were here and will not change anything in the future.But atleast don't go around trying to convince others that they can't change things.

[TopTup]

That is one of the most poorly written, poorly thought out and illogical retorts you have ever attempted! Not based on one minuscule fact and completely without reason. All circuses have clowns to fill the gaps of serious acts with comedy. You are, at best, entertaining in your stupidity and banter :ok:

Where did I compare Afghanistan to AI or India?

Where have I EVER stated that ALL pilots are AI are "****" (your word)? In fact you'll see I wrote quite the opposite. Oops! I said that four letter word again: FACT.

You didn't even bother to properly comprehend what was written before asking your mommy and daddy's permission to use the computer and reply, did you?

I encourage change at AI! I want it to happen! I only highlight the disgrace it is. You are part of that disgrace by defending the un-defendable FACTS.

How about you start sending me PM's (like the one you did not too long ago apologising for your immaturity, as well as thanking me for trying to make a difference when I was at AI) instead of diverging from the thread if you want to argue with me? I only continued to argue you to demonstrate the substance of idiocy blocking decency and proper standards. You've done enough of that for us.

Also, after a sentence and a period is used correct grammar requires a space before beginning the next sentance. Such issues may prevent you from writing a legible CV. See! I'm full of help for you today!

Thanks for the laugh. Now go and put your red nose back on and make me laugh again, and again, and again..... Fool!

[cruisinfobrewsin]

Get a room both of you........:p:p

[Capt Apache]

Forget my grammar.I may have flawed logic too.But have you looked within yet Sir :) ? Were you dumb to join AI or was that my fault too ? Has the media heard you yet.Try writing a letter to an editor instead of whining on this forum forever.I sent you a PM (6 months ago !) coz I felt bad for what I thought was a wronged old man.But now I think you totally deserved what you got.Get well soon.

O yeah And things will change.Smart people will change things, not quitters

[fullforward]

You're spending expensive ammunition on cheap chase!...
Some day, somehow, types like Apache will stop pissing out of diapers and throwing toys out of the crib!...:ugh:

[silent_scream]

Does it bother any one that there are absolutely no aerial images of the crash at the mangalore airport ?
Or am I missing something ?

[Capt Apache]

@full forward

You're spending expensive ammunition on cheap chase!...


Yeah like 'I won't fly me or my own on VT a/c'.....Oh but wait some pilots are good....Nothing will change...it wont change....oh but wait I want change to happen...I want to encourage change

That sums up Top Tups expensive ammunition....Even Politicians don't make such quick turnarounds.:ok:

[TopTup]

Cruisinfobrewsin....too true and had to laugh!

Fullforward. Yep, you too are right! Too much down time at the moment.

Apache: Thanks. I knew you wouldn't let me down with your clown act. Again, not one thing you wrote makes sense nor indicates any backflip on my part. You have zero experience, zero aviation knowledge and hence zero credibility. You really are a uneducated (and evidently now bordering on illiterate) child. You'll be chewing at the bit to respond, with what? No one cares! Illogical dribble coming from your breastfed existence does not count. See ya! Won't bite again. (Shouldn't have in the first place). Give up? Quit? Go jump in a fire and see how soon you quit trying that. That makes you a quitter if using the same analogy that I experienced. Experience? Another word alien to you. I am a proud quitter of a corrupt system and potentially criminally negligent airline. Odd that you are desperate to get involved....?

Apache has attempted to ruin another potentially good thread. I won't respond to your childish, immature mutterings on this thread again. Do not disrespect others as (we) have done too much here. If you wish to argue me then do it via a PM.

So, back to the thread of the AIE accident for us all....

Will the culture at AI change from this? Will it or can it be fully exposed? Time will tell. Is anyone fully aware aware of which authorities are involved in the investigation?? (Please don't mention the DGCA. While obvious, it has zero credibility anywhere.)

[iflytb20]

Will the culture at AI change from this? Will it or can it be fully exposed? Time will tell. Is anyone fully aware aware of which authorities are involved in the investigation?? (Please don't mention the DGCA. While obvious, it has zero credibility anywhere.)

Who else is there to investigate???? But the findings will be made public and hopefully one can see a report like this http://civilaviation.nic.in/coi-fin/report.PDF
(http://civilaviation.nic.in/coi-fin/report.PDF)

[Capt Apache]

@Top Tup

O So Joining AI was like jumping in the fire was it ? It wasn't dumb ? Only a fool will jump into the fire in the first place. Go hide behind your political gimmicks and personal attacks on me all the time claiming to mention facts when they are infact over exaggerated half truths.

Why didn't you send me a PM if you cared so much about not ruining the thread ? Pretentious as usual :rolleyes:

[Wannabe Flyer]

Apache

Heat got you? Think you need to chill a bit, drink a beer and relax.

[fatbus]

Yes Indian DGCA are in charge of the report. That is pretty standard. Boeing will be asked to assist < because it was a Boeing and what ever engine manufacturer will be asked to assist. The DGCA can ask for outside help as they did , the US NTSB is there to assist( they have the experience and technology )

[TopTup]

fatbus, as mush as I thought as well.

But, will it be similar to the EgyptAir 767 crash (31 Oct '99) where the US NTSB did investigate and came up with differing conclusions to the flag carrier's investigative branch? Same with Boeing's assistance.

Naturally the DGCA will lead the investigation but how transparent will be the question. Also, how deep into the contributing factors will they go is another question: airline culture, training standards, etc....

[alouette3]

Top Tup,
Don't know if it is still the practice,but most air crash enquiries, in India, are lead by a judge.Now, understandably,he may not have any aviation experience,but sometimes a neutral observer is the best way to go. That way, the DGCA does not meddle with the findings to their advantage.
Yes,I know, judges are not above corruption or political pressure, but it has worked so far and ,hopefully, it will work again.
Alt3

[Kalistan]

Apache, I do not agree with some of the stuff you wrote but you have done a great service by ruffling some feathers and exposing this fella to ridicule........their replies to you reveal a great deal!

[rdr]

well said oswaldo. too many budding tin-kickers coming up with theories. best to wait till the pros are done.

many moons back(80's), a JAL 747 SR crashed in Japan killing 500 +. a BBC report brought in a brit aviation "expert," who commented on the quality of training and pilots in Japan, amongst other things.

the probe revealed a rear bulkhead blowout which severed the entire hydraulics of the a/c due to faulty riveting.
the pilots managed to keep an uncontrollable a/c in flt, with the throttles for 40 mins before it hit a hill. (4 survivors)

[fullforward]

I would happily place a U$ 1.000 bet that the DGCA final report will be:....
BLAME THE EXPAT PILOT!:E

[jimmygill]

A bet
I would happily place a U$ 1.000 bet that the DGCA final report will be:....
BLAME THE EXPAT PILOT!

Is that $1.00 or $1,000?

If at all there is a role played by pilot error, then I guess its natural the commander will be blamed, unless of course it is proved that the commander got incapacitated before the mishap.

So in effect you are betting on pilot error, if thats the case I can safely assume you meant $1,000.

My personal worst case cause for this accident will be high due to cutting corners at DME arc approach, something which was demonstrated by a 100% local crew in Patna crash.

[Capt Apache]

@ Jimmy

Why bother the poor fellow.May be he only has 1 dollar.Thought there was more involved in the Patna crash, like some faulty Rudder system.

[Sky Dancer]

Apache, there was no technical fault with the B 737-200 that went down in Patna.It was a case of an unstabilised approach being corrected with a very wrong technique coupled with the failure of the crew to apply the correct stall recovery technique.In addition it is rumored that the pilot's had inter changed seats.The post put up by Full Throttle does carry a lot of merit as the points mentioned are true ...:ok:

[King on a Wing]

Just out of curiosity Sky Dancer. WHY on god's green earth would a crew of a jet airplane ever "interchange seats" and therby jeopordise the lives of almost a half a score passengers. And what facts do you have to support your "theory". If any. Next you will probably be heard rambling that the captain of the 738 in question was flying from the RHS....!!
Quit making self assumptious 'theories' and stick to facts. That is IF you have any!! Poor journalism isn't exactly a fact...and googling an accident doesn't make it reliable information!
Non adherence to SOP was the exact cause. Period.
And who is 'Full Throttle',and where is his post?!
Am off now..

[jimmygill]

Wasn't trying tpo bother fullforward, just clarifying the bet.

As far as the patna accident is considered, there was an effort to put blame on boeing by hypothesizing that the slats did not extend. I believe such misdirection in investigations come from the role played by the airline in the crash.

Its high time aviation crash investigation should be taken away from DGCA+airline.

The commander of the patna flight was eager to provide some left seat experience to his colleague f/o who was undergoing P1 upgrade, and already had P1 endorsement.

They didn't follow the DME arc, got high on approach requested 360 on final and got real slow. I don't have the report with me, and cannot find it online.
If anyone has the link do post it here.

[iflytb20]

f anyone has the link do post it here.

See my post #56 in this thread. I had linked the Patna crash investigation report in it

PS: Link is below

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/415913-air-india-express-crash-3.html#post5719635

[TopTup]

Nightmare in the morning as 51 die in Patna plane crash (http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/20000718/ina18049.html)

Alliance Air Flight 7412 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_Air_Flight_7412)

Boeing 737 Accident Reports (http://www.b737.org.uk/accident_reports.htm) (scroll down 1/3 of the way)

And interesting, but a bit of babble:
Aviation: Air Tragedy: Why CD 7412 Crashed (http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20000731/aviation.html)

(NB: if my memory serves me right, the rudder reversal refers to the 737 classic hydraulic system that drives the rudder to operate in the opposite sense to that commanded. This was proven by the US NTSB to be due prolonged operations at below freezing temperatures and then rather quick [thermal] heating from hot hydraulic fluid (The Rudder Story (http://www.b737.org.uk/rudder.htm)). Boeing issued advisories and notices about it to all operating with that system. This WAS NOT a factor in the Patna Crash, as verified by the investigation. Plain and simple pilot's loss of SA. Pilot error.)

[fullforward]

" VIP flights force 3 jets to land with no fuel to spare


Arun Ram, TNN, May 30, 2010, 01.17am IST


CHENNAI: Three days after the Mangalore aircrash, three planes that had been diverted from Delhi airport on account of VIP movement, had a narrow shave when they all but ran out of fuel above Jaipur airport. The three flights had more than 450 passengers on board at the time.


Wednesday's Jetlite flight JLL 108 from Mumbai landed with just enough fuel to remain airborne for three minutes. The Mumbai-Delhi Kingfisher flight IT 300 landed just 10 minutes before its fuel tank ran dry. Jet Airways 9W 2357 from Chennai made it onto the runway with fuel for just 13 minutes of flying time. Both Jet planes were Boeing 737s and carried 192 and 174 people each.

The Kingfisher plane was an Airbus 330 and had 158 people on board. Wednesday saw 11 flights diverted to Jaipur, Chandigarh and Lucknow, even as 20 others were forced to circle Delhi airport for an hour starting 9am. The airport was closed because of President Pratibha Patil's flight to China and Turkmenistan president Gurbanguly Berdimunha-medov's flight to Agra.


The tension built up for planes queuing to land at Jaipur as challenging weather - gusts of wind and a duststorm - worsened conditions already difficult because of the absence of approach radar to monitor flight movement.


Planes are supposed to carry enough fuel to fly to a nearby airport in case of an emergency but the uncertainty over the VIP planes' take-off had them circling in the air till they got to Jaipur with little fuel left. The pilots have filed 'flight safety reports' detailing the emergency situation to the Director General of Civil Aviation (DGCA).


VIP movement nearly caused an aviation disaster when three planes, with more than 450 passengers, nearly ran out of fuel when they were diverted from Delhi to Jaipur airport. The pilots of Jetlite flight JLL 108, Kingfisher flight IT 300 and Jet Airways 9W 2357 were caught unawares as there was no Notam (notice to airmen) about the closure of airspace until they reached Delhi.


Airports Authority of India authorities said the practice of issuing Notam during VIP movements has been stopped due to security reasons and Wednesday's flap was unforeseen. "Usually there is only a three-minute shutdown of airspace during VIP movement. But on Wednesday, the Turkmenistan president's flight got delayed because of bad weather in Agra, resulting in diversions and go-arounds," PK Mishra, AAI general manager, air traffic maintenance, told TOI.


The three flights were using up the final reserve fuel when they declared emergency. "The Kingfisher flight which first declared fuel emergency was allowed to land. The Jet Airlines flight, which had only 10 minutes of fuel left, declared emergency next, but it gave way to a Jetlite flight which radioed an emergency declaration," said a source.

Three days after the Mangalore air crash, three aircraft diverted from Delhi airport because of VIP movement had a brush with danger as they almost ran out of fuel above Jaipur airport. "

This is a complete picture of India's current civil aviation scenario.
Is it necessary to say something else?
F...ing idiots!:mad:
Playing with people's lifes on a so irresponsible manner, only few days after the worst national crash! It's a joke.

[Capt Apache]

This is strange.How did ATC know what the copilot was telling the Captain.

Mangalore crash: Captain ignored co-pilot's plea to abort landing - Mangalore - City - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mangalore/Mangalore-crash-Captain-ignored-co-pilots-plea-to-abort-landing/articleshow/5992615.cms)

[Sky Dancer]

King for starters let me tell you this.I am not one who has much respect for the so call "aviation correspondents" that we have running around.Whatever I have mentioned about the Patna crash are facts and suffice it to say that my facts are well informed.Capt.Sohan Pal and Capt.Rajeev Bagga were friends and Capt.Rajeev Bagga had completed his command training but was yet to be released on the line.While departing Calcutta , Capt.Sohan Pal had offered the left seat to Capt.Bagga and thus seats were interchanged.The analysis of the CVR and evidence from the crash site prove it.When you look at the technical part of things , some of the B 737 - 200 / 300s had a problem with the PCU that controlled the rudder of the aircraft.This problem was affecting only certain aircraft that were manufactured during a certain period and if my memory serves me right it was between the mid 1980s to the early 1990s.When this problem was discovered Boeing had ordered a modification of all B 737 aircraft irrespective of their MSN with a modification called the RPR.It was implemented worldwide and since then there has not been a B 737 accident attributed to the faulty PCU of the rudder.Now I am not 100% sure if the RPR modification was implemented in the ill fated aircraft invovled in the Patna crash but I do know that it was confirmed that the rudder system was working perfectly at the time of the crash as the rudder reacted correctly to the pilots inputs as it was going down.Now in the final report that the DGCA published , they did not say with certainty that the seats were inter changed which I think was due to lack of 100% evidence and also maybe due to the legal aspect of things as well.But for all you expert critics out there who damn the DGCA , let me tell you this.In all the accident reports that have been published by the DGCA , they have been 100% accurate and fair.They have never shifted the blame to the manufacturer or anyone else but have zeroed in on the exact cause of the accident.A good example of this is the A 320 crash in Bangalore.Although there was a lot of political pressure , it was attributed to pilot error.If you compare this with what happens elsewhere you would appreciate this fact.A good example of this is the Silk Air MI 185 disaster for which there is an active thread running.It was very clear that it was pilot suicide.But the inconclusice report of the Indonesian authorities which was largely due to political pressure opened the door for a lawyer in the US to go in for the kill.In the end it was blamed on the aircraft for the faulty rudder and as a result the people got more compensation and the lawyer made his big buck.Now why do I say all this , it is because it is important to have accurate findings of an accident or incident so that it does not happen again and that innocents are killed.Fathers , mothers , children were killed in Mangalore and lives scarred forever and here we have the media and everyone else trying to blame the expat pilot.Now if you go back to my previous remark of what Top Tup and Full Throttle had to say about the problems in AI , look at these 2 points closely , the work culture and the selection of foreign air crew.Many of the best airline companies in the world hire expat pilots and these airlines have excellent safety records.What is important is that they get quality aircrew through a proper selection procedure and also the backgrounds are verified.But you must know that they are also paid top dollar.You must remember that in these airlines Indians are also considered expats.So open you're eyes your Highness , look down on your subjects and get a grip on reality rather than sit on a wing and let the airflow cool your ....:ok:

[Boeing7xx]

Errr.... Capt. A.S. Bagga -> Arvind Singh Bagga.... was on the 412... His wife's an actress by the way.

[Sky Dancer]

Yes that is what I meant to say..:ok:

[jimmygill]

Mangalore Air Crash : Final Report After Two Months (http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=86601&n_tit=Mangalore+Air+Crash+:+Final+Report+After+Two+Months)

Bangalore, Sep 29: R P Sahil, joint director in the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) informed here on Tuesday September 28 that the report of the Court of Inquiry (COI) appointed to go into the crash of Air India Express flight 812 after overshooting the runway at Mangalore airport on May 22 this year, is expected to be published after two months. 158 persons had lost their lives in the above tragedy, with eight survivors.

The COI with six members, had been given time till August 31 o submit its report. The deadline was then extended to September 30. It is learnt that as per the International Civil Aviation Organization’s guidelines, the country where the crashed aircraft was manufactured, has the right to testify as to whether the aircraft was in good condition or not, at the time of its crash.

The crashed aircraft was a Boeing 737-800 made in USA. As such, the draft report of the findings of COI had been sent to the aviation regulatory authority of USA a week back. A final report would be prepared once response from USA is received. Hence, the expected delay is around two months, he explained.

Initial findings had pointed fingers at the pilot error for the crash.

"Right of Aircraft Manufacturer to Testify": Are they blaming the machine now?

[vserian]

I would happily place a U$ 1.000 bet that the DGCA final report will be:....
BLAME THE EXPAT PILOT!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Dude this is the internet, you can even put up a 1 million bet....