Air India Express B738 crash

[King on a Wing]

Any news of the Air India Express B737-800 crash in Mangalore, India...?? Updates please...

[TIMA9X]

A little more,
Plane overshoots runway in India, bursts into flames: reports (http://www.smh.com.au/world/plane-overshoots-runway-in-india-bursts-into-flames-reports-20100522-w2ji.html)

[galaxy flyer]

Having been there, the runway is built on what is essentially a ridge. An overrun is going to result of going off a cliff of, at least, 75 feet or more.

Not good.

[iflytb20]

Happened at 0630 LT. From what i've heard acft fell into a 150 ft valley. IMHO it is still too early for any speculations. Sad day for IX:{

[shiftkeying]

According to NDTV there were 156 passengers and 6 crew members. There may be some survivors.

[Piper_Driver]

CNN is now reporting over 160 casualties:
Airline confirms casualties in Air India crash - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05/21/india.plane.crash/?hpt=T1)

[very ex-ba]

Indian tv is reporting 6 passengers were pulled alive from wreckage by villagers and transferred to hospital. Wreckage spread over a distance of 3km, Plane came down at about 6am.

The control tower staff were interviewed on indian tv and report that crew did not report any issues, and did not request any assistance.

control tower staff member also described the airport as a table top airport..... run off the end and it's a long way down.

airport is closed, but crash site in inaccessable to airport emergency vehicles. 20 ambulances are attending the scene.

Although the interview with ATC did seem to be a reliable source of information, the rest i am afraid is subjective.
Indian minister stated 19 children on the manifest and it was raining heavily at the time of the landing.

[akerosid]

Acft appears to have been operating IX 812, which had an STA of 0630.

Here's a link to the airport site (and satellite view) of IXE Airport:

Mangalore International Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangalore_International_Airport)

I'm in Dubai at the moment and IX is a major operator here; many, if not most, pax would have been domestic/construction workers whose families rely on remittances from family members in Dubai.

Sadly, this accident brings to an end a very long period of exceptional growth in Indian aviation without fatal accidents.

[protectthehornet]

table top airports...you have to be right on every time you fly, rain or shine to be in the groove when it counts.

[wozzo]

http://drop.ndtv.com/albums/NEWS/manaircrash/4.jpg

First Pics: Mangalore Air Tragedy (http://www.ndtv.com/news/photos/album-details.php?albumPage=4&id=7414&Album=PHOTO_GALLERY&AlbumTitle=First+Pics%3A+Mangalore+Air+Tragedy)

[VHHH07R]

7 People Rescued So Far

Rescue Operations Hampered Due To Persistent Rain And Crash Spot Doesn't Allow Vehicular Movt.

[Fatfish]

News reports say, rejected landing.
Wheather visibility of 3000m in rain is a equivalent to 700m in monsoon rain at 130 knots. Wonder if the pilots had monsoon experience. Any ILS on the south westerly runway? :sad:

[iflytb20]

@fatfish

At Mangalore, R24 is equipped with an ILS while R06 has a VOR approach with an appx 10 degrees offset FAT

[iflytb20]

@ fatfish

The capt has been with the company for more than 2 years and yes he had operated in the monsoons previously. And also since IXE is considered a critical airfield, it requires special qualification [for BOTH crew members] before one can operate there.

[very ex-ba]

Mangalore eye witness at crash site reports on twit' a survivor said a tyre exploded on landing and they tried to take off again.

7 survivors but infant later died in hospital which accounts for the 6/7 figures being reported.

[sierra5913]

Anyone got the METAR at the time of the accident?

[VHHH07R]

Reported Visibility About 6 Km No Ppt. At Landing Time Apparently Aircraft Has Also Hit A Vor Installation At Landing After Normal Clearance Was Given By Atc

[akerosid]

So far this year, even before this morning's tragedy, the number of fatalities (355) was well above the ten year average (266). (Source: Aviation Safety Network).

Now confirmed that the aircraft that crashed was VT-AXV, delivered Jan 2008:

JetPhotos.Net Photo » VT-AXV (CN: 36333) Air-India Express Boeing 737-8HG by Thomas Loh Y. H. (http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6792107&nseq=0)

[takeoffpowerset]

Crrew details Captain- Zed Gorcia ( an russian Expat )


First officer - S.S. Ahluwalia

Media reporting of a possible loss of control during go around ...

[iflytb20]

Also:a heavy zfw 737-800, vref is around 155kt, runways become a lot shorter at that speed At IXE, we do a F40 landing [SoP]. At MLW, Vref 40 is 139 KIAS. Also AXV was fitted with the Short Field Performance package/kit.

[yasir8095]

Just talked to a friend at Mangalore with ix. confirmed no MELs.
He quoted eyewitnesses as saying that the aircraft made a pretty steep approach and touched down close to half way down the runway. They heard the thrust reversers and then a loud thud which was caused by the right wing hitting the Localiser at the end of runway. part of the wing fell there and the aircraft then fell over into the valley below. Then burst into flames.
Very sad incident and may God give strength to the bereaved families in this hour of distress.

PS: no precipitation at time of crash. Runway was dry.

[swish266]

AI started aligning the proverbial Swiss cheese about 2 years back.
First they reduced the benefits for their staff and chased a lot of their experienced national pilots to the Gulf and elsewhere.
Then they started picking at the expat force.
Then they lowered the maintenance standards.
And of course nobody from management paid attention to the brooding and demotivation spreading like fire among employees, while in parliament the deputies kept bickering over the next bail-out package for the ailing National carrier!
So finally they managed to do the alignment job.
Question was not if, but when and how many would loose their lives!

:mad:

[Agni]

The Wiki information on the RW length is wrong. The exact length of the main RW is 8,038 '.

[armchairpilot94116]

Survivor jumped out of gap in broken aircraft: relative (http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/survivor-jumped-out-of-gap-in-broken-aircraft-relative_100367783.html)

Survivor jumped out of gap in broken aircraft: relative

May 22nd, 2010 - 12:42 pm ICT by IANS -

Mangalore (Karnataka), May 22 (IANS) One of the survivors of the air crash, Umar Farooq, said he escaped by jumping out of from a gap when the plane broke immediately after shooting off the runway at the Mangalore airport.
“He told us that as soon as the aircraft started landing, the front wheel burst and the plane shot off the runway before catching fire. There was a crack in the aircraft. He jumped out of it and ran away,” Farooq’s relative told NDTV news channel.

“There were two-three people who also jumped out. But we don’t know if they survived. Umar Farooq received burn injuries on his hand and face,” said the relative.

Farooq also told his family that there was no pre-landing message from the crew and the passengers were not even asked to fasten their seat belts.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Mr.Bloggs]

Further obvious holes lined up:

Time of day (0630)-very tired pilots
Low vis
Drenched runway surface
Absence of runway-end safety features-converse in fact-lethal over-run
Mixed-nationality flight crew (Serb/Indian)--communication sub-optimal
Airport ATC poor standard-increases workload

India is a difficult aviation environment at the best of times. Accidents always likely.

[Speed Freak]

was flying back from the gulf around this time....heard ix812 on mangalore control...were asking for a direct to iaf for dme arc approach...am not sure for what runway they had requested...and also heard winds were calm....cant find voml metar anywhere....

[Mahatma Kote]

Most up-to-date photo resource for Mangalore accident is

mangalore - News, photos, topics, and quotes (http://www.daylife.com/search/photos/1/grid?q=mangalore)

They also have video aggregates.

There is also a photo of a child survivor on the Straits Times website

[J77]

This is just the start of things to come in Indian aviation. The likes of 9W, KF are not far, as training standards are eroded to the point of embarassment.

What is not helping is the climate offered by the regulatory body (DGCA) which is run by a bunch of incompetant people that only have 'union' experience. Their only way to control aviation in India is by fear and corruption. Due to archaic regulatory processes, AIC's are issued with no thought. The people in control are tyrants who love their image and are way beyond their depths. SAFETY is no consideration because they do not know what it actualy means. Their own operation needs scrutiny before they can legislate. As long as they continue these sycophants will drive Indian aviation further into the ground.

Training and checking standards in the country have to change. Discipline is lacking, and must be addressed with education. Mitigation strategies have to be put in place NOW, before more lives are lost. Accountability has to be the order of the day. Technology can save us only so much....

[Wannabe Flyer]

It happened in two seconds: Survivor - India - ibnlive (http://ibnlive.in.com/news/it-happened-in-two-seconds-survivor/115928-3.html?from=tn)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<made a pretty steep approach and touched down close to the middle marker>>

So it landed prior to the runway?

[yoland]

Can we please wait for the facts before this thread becomes another feeding ground for our b.s analysts.:ugh:

[roaldp]

Interesting survey photo of the airport here:
Photos: - Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo//1119346/L/&sid=272ef05c39ec1346f6a3b6de578681c7)

(Choose Satellite and zoom in on the following:)
World Aeronautical Database (http://worldaerodata.com/?12.961267,74.890069)

[ZFT]

6680740

2.Cutting down of training hours

Can you back this up with facts because this isn't my experience.

[Flaperon777]

HD....in this case his reference of 'middle marker' is with regards to the middle of the runway.The 'middle marker' implying the 1,000 ft decrements marked and annunciated by single digits along the runway edges. The rest of his observations however seem quite accurate and reliable...

[Capt Apache]

Was the Russian Capt a Trainer ? Was this a Command training flight ?

[iflytb20]

HD....in this case his reference of 'middle marker' is with regards to the middle of the runway.The 'middle marker' implying the 1,000 ft decrements marked and annunciated by single digits along the runway edges. The rest of his observations however seem quite accurate and reliable... Except for the fact that the VOR is on a different hill about 1.5 NM away from the R24 threshold

[premkudva]

"The aircraft is said to be 5 years old. It was manned by Captain Glusik, a Serbian National and co-piloted by Alhuwalia, an Indian National. The Captain had attempted to land the plane on the middle of the runway but overshot it by 300 meters. After this he tried to take off again but the left wing of the plane hit a pole and the plane went out of control. The plane landed one kilometer far from the runway after crashing into a village, caught fire and exploded."

From http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=broadcast&broadcastid=181196

[Ireland105]

A couple of details I would like to get clarity on -

1. Which runway did the crew land on ? Runway 09/27 is quite short at 1615m in length, are we talking this one or the newly built much longer 04/22 (2,900m).

2. Any more info on the pilots, namely captain and FO total times and times on type. Age also. I know the captain had 13,000 hrs TT but I wonder how much of that was on the B738 ?

3. Slight side issue - but in relation to runway 09/27 at 1,615m in length does any one know if there are any aircraft limitations for using this runway ? Im thinking specifically about the A321. I would not fancy landing an A321 on that runway after a heavy rain shower esp given the well documented issues with stopping it on very rain soaked terrain.

[iflytb20]

A couple of details I would like to get clarity on -

1. Which runway did the crew land on ? Runway 09/27 is quite short at 1615m in length, are we talking this one or the newly built much longer 04/22 (2,900m).The approach was made for R24 - the ILS approach

2. Any more info on the pilots, namely captain and FO total times and times on type. Age also. I know the captain had 13,000 hrs TT but I wonder how much of that was on the B738 ?Let's just leave this for a while till their fates are ascertained

3. Slight side issue - but in relation to runway 09/27 at 1,615m in length does any one know if there are any aircraft limitations for using this runway ? Im thinking specifically about the A321. I would not fancy landing an A321 on that runway after a heavy rain shower esp given the well documented issues with stopping it on very rain soaked terrain. R09/27 is very rarely used these days - and if at all it us used only ATRs and smaller planes do so. Rest all use R06/24

[express315]

I am a russian expat who worked for AIE from the very beginning.
As far as I know all "russians" have left long ago.
And the captains name doesn't sound "russian" to me at all.
There were many serbian pilots who joined AIE just before we left.

[Wannabe Flyer]

http://ibnlive.in.com/pix/ibnhome/breakingnews/orange-bullet.gif
Flight pilot identified as Serbian expatriate Capt Zlatko Glusica



Breaking News: Air traffic resumes at Mangalore airport (http://ibnlive.in.com/breakingnews/)

Airport Authorities of India issued a press release saying the plane crashed after overshoot the runway.
"The aircraft was following ILS Approach for landing on Runway 24 and the pilot reported to ATC that it is established on ILS approach at about 10 miles from touch down. Landing clearance was given at about four miles from touch down. Aircraft touched down the Runway 24 beyond the touch down zone, overshot the runway and went in the valley beyond the runway," the release said

[ManaAdaSystem]

The 737-800 does not look too bad if you look at the landing performance figures in the FCOM, but in RL... It is one of the most demanding aircraft when it comes short and/or contaminated runways.
I know nothing about the runway state/weather at the time of this accident, but in general:

-I have never landed on a grooved runway in India.
-I have never landed on a "flat" runway in India.

So if it's raining, it will have an amount of water/standing water on it, and your wheels are hardly touching the surface as you bounce along during landing.

Did this crew originate in Dubai, or was this the end of a India-ME-India night duty? If this was the case, I know how these two felt at 6:30 in the morning. It's a common pattern, all airlines in the region (India/ME) does them, but it
doesn't make it any easier or safer.

FL 40 is a preferred option if you are in any way runway limited, but it will give you an "unfamiliar" attitude in the -800. It's easy to end up slightly high when you cross the fence (during normal landings) and the result will often be a long landing. Throw in some pilots allergy against auto brakes, and you will fast find youself in a less than desirable situation.

Talking in general, I have no reason to say the IX crew did one thing or another.

[Kockar]

Well, the pilot was Serbian (with British citizenship), Zlatko Glusica - 53 ( here is his facebook profile: Zlatko Glusica | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=785413057) ). He was experienced pilot with more than 10.000 flight hours, earned from 1979 (in JAT most probably in B737-300), and from october 2008 in Air India (737-800), and he had experience of Mangalore's airport.
He celebrated his birthday on may 16th. (some cheers and thanks are on his FB profile)

[Neptunus Rex]

Those photographs are dreadful. Why are there so many ghouls getting their 'eyeful' so close to the wreckage? Many of them are very close to the rear fuselage, where the flight data recorders are located. Rubberneckers should not be allowed to contaminate the scene of an investigation. Where are the police?

[spedfast]

From the press release of India Meteorological Department

Based on the Current Weather reports of Mangalore (Bajpe) airport and Synoptic Observations of Mangalore, it is inferred that visibility at 0030 UTC ( 0600 IST) was 6000 Meters and fair weather prevailed from 2200 UTC of 21st May to 0030 UTC of 22nd May. Light Drizzle was observed at 0100UTC (0630 IST) with associated visibility 4000 Metes. 1 MM rain was recorded since evening of 21st May to 0300 UTC ( 0830 IST) of 22nd May 2010.

[Kulverstukas]

Looking on photos, weather seems quite fine, with no sign of showers or thunderstorm lately (soil and green is dry).

[takeoffpowerset]

what I fail to understand is instead of speculating so much on what caused the crash and having 100 different theories , why doesn't someone interview the AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER @ Mangalore ATC tower , he would have seen the whole thing live and should be able to tell what exactly caused such a grave disaster!!!!

no doubt that this tragic accident happened at a time when indian aviation was just about to come out from the ongoing recession in the industry.

[skyboy1919]

Does anyone know where the crew were in relation to their duty? Would this have been the last sector of a long turnaround? Does Air India Express have a base at Mangalore?

Can this airport handle anything bigger than the B737-800?

Cheers

[TWT]

Rubberneckers exist everywhere.Plenty in Tripoli recently,Smolensk,Indonesia at crash sites wandering around aircraft wreckage.And at traffic accidents the world over.Human nature unfortunately.Police tend to be a bit overwhelmed in the immediate aftermath of any disaster co-ordinating rescue access,looking for survivors etc.Preserving a crash site for accident investigators will always take a back seat to more immediate concerns.

[VHHH07R]

According to the civil aviation minister Mr Patel's just concluded press conference

137 adult 19 children 4infants 6 crew members

Copilot based at mangalore(VOML)N and familiar with terrain

Visiblity at time 6 kms , Calm winds , Available ILS approach

New runway operational in 2006 and certified by DGCA TECHNICAL AUTHORITY with length of around 8000 feet with friction quotient in acceptable limits

All survivors had a coomon version that aircraft after landing applied heavy braking and shook , vibrated and subsequently overshot runway

Entire wreckage found (did not mention if FDR AND CVR are found yet)

One of the wings collided with the localizer at the end of runway and veered off

after that aircraft plunged into valley/cliff of around 200-300 metres

(According to a news channel black box of ix-812 recovered)

(Meanwhile Boeing is sending its team to assist with the investigation)

[Rananim]

Factors that may be involved:
-landing @ 6am after 8 hrs FT(MGL-DXB-MGL) and 12 hrs FDP..was rest period satis prior etc
-hot/high approach leading to late touchdown
-lack of training in aborted landings..sim checks only cover GA's at minima not a rwy GA..procedure is stand TL's mid position announcing "GO AROUND,F15"(PNF will set flaps 15),trim to FIVE,set 85-90% N1 and rotate at <>Vref..Vref40=V2 F15,Vref 15=V2 F1
-the usual "get home-itis" which can effect even seasoned and disciplined pilots
-tires..it is known that Indian operators upgrade the min tread threshold when the monsoon weather hits..monsoon is due next month so tires may have been a factor
-crew communications-rwy GA is not a difficult maneuver but requires prompt and well-rehearsed actions by both PF and PNF..reverse should not have been activated..once activated,rwy GA is normally not an option..but in a desperate situation with the rwy end looming,anything is possible

With 8000 ' of concrete and reasonable wx,late touchdown and fatigue must rank high in possible list of suspects..burst tire is rumored and would have controllability issues and be a distraction ie..late selection of reversers or induce pilot to try for a GA even after rev activation

regardless,the seeds of most overruns are sown on the approach..I have flown in SE Asia and Japan and most pilots dont know how to recover safely from a hot/high approach(GA is safest option,but option 2-ie the recovery technique is not to be dismissed and should be trained..but its not..training skippers want the line pilot to GA so they dont train it).

[Kockar]

And this Aerodrome Obstacle chart is also some sort of information:
http://www.aai.aero/public_notices/(VOML_17)-TypeA06-24(BW).pdf

Charts (including ILS24), here: Airports Authority of India (http://www.aai.aero/public_notices/Mangalore.jsp)

[fmgc]

Seems like an aquaplaning scenario. Was it raining.

This is just the sort of ill-informed speculation that we don't need.

To suggest that it was aquaplaning and THEN ask if it was raining?? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[widgeon]

o0nbXQxBUG0

gives some idea of a normal landing there.

[bekolblockage]

gives some idea of a normal landing there

Thanks for the vid.
Looks like that arrival was on R27 - the short runway. You can see the much longer R24 heading off to the left as they come over the threshold. Presume the drop-off is just as bad off 24.
Its a fair way down, but I'm still surprised at the level of destruction of the aircraft compared to other similar over-runs. Must have still been doing a fair rate of knots.

[deSitter]

"Those photographs are dreadful. Why are there so many ghouls getting their 'eyeful' so close to the wreckage? Many of them are very close to the rear fuselage, where the flight data recorders are located. Rubberneckers should not be allowed to contaminate the scene of an investigation. Where are the police?"


It's India - you cannot believe how many people are always crowding about and milling around - it's hellish in places.

-drl

[zaccy]

Vid of a landing on R24

Nq7fzemZCZU

[protectthehornet]

rananmim

you are quite right when you say the seeds of overrun are sewn during the approach.

isn't it funny, how we can't communicate here on a computer about middle markers, yet expect people of different nations to communicate in the cockpit?

FWIW a middle marker is an electronic navigation aid...located prior to the runway (in most situations) about where DH is on a standard ILS.

The center of the runway would mean to me the centerline

the middle of the runway...could mean the centerline or halfway down the runway.

so many communication difficulties and we can type this stuff in the safety and comfort of our own homes.

There are few airports in the world that I wouldn't land at the 1000' fixed distance marker.

Edwards air force base might be one. Vandenberg might be two.

all others...and I mean it...all others demand us to do our best, to be ready for the worst day.

[Pugachev Cobra]

In recent years it has become so much common that almost every passenger has a portable electronic device capable of recording videos, that you can see a lot of videos on the internet from a passenger point of view of takeoffs and landings. Given that not everyone uploads their videos, we can assume there are more recordings taking place.

I can't help but think that there is good reason to expect that some passenger was filming the landing.

My question is, do any of you know how are recovery team procedures these days about electronic devices?

It's a long shot, but retrieving all electronic devices, especially cell phones and cameras, and trying to retrieve its memory, in the hopes of finding a recorded video from an incident/accident, would provide valuable information for the investigation.

Has it been done before? Or at least, are there legal implications that would hamper its use in the benefit of aviation safety?

[Gringobr]

I think the first accident to be filmed was Air NZ which flew into a mountain in Antarctica in 1979
Because it was a tourist, sight seeing flight, many passengers were filming it and the moment of impact was caught on tape.
I believe it helped corroborate the white out effect, rarely known (or better not fully appreciated) until then..

[NGFellow]

The Indian DGCA had a policy in place when I was there. It was called Assisted Take-off and landing. This meant that new Capts and those who did not have the clearance had to fly each take-off and landing and had to assume control 1000 ft AGL prior to landing, and could give the F/O the departure after 1,000 ft AGL. If the Capt and the F/O were cleared then the F/O could take-off and land but only under favorable conditions.
Certain special airports were Capt only takeoff/landing under all conditions. Since Mangalore is a special airport, not sure if the F/O would have been allowed to land unless the Capt was a check pilot doing his training. News media has stated that F/O had 66 landings there. That may not be acccurate. Maybe some AIE guys can shed some light.

[iflytb20]

NGFellow

IXE is a captains only landing airport. By the 66 landings i feel they meant that he had done 66 flights from IXE.

[wozzo]

The image below gives a sense of location of the wreckage (I think on top of the hill are airport installations at end of runway visible). Two questions:

- was it a rejected landing (botched GA attempt), and/or
- what path did the aircraft take (there is an EMAS at runway end)?

http://www.tvdaijiworld.com/images/daya_220510_flatigt10.jpg

[ProteaPete]

isn't it funny, how we can't communicate here on a computer about middle markers, yet expect people of different nations to communicate in the cockpit? If everyone stuck to ICAO terminology, it wouldn't be such an issue.

It's often laziness which causes the failure of understanding in r/t communication. Someone hears the term "Middle Marker" and applies it to the painted markings on a runway surface, because it sounds like it might make sense, with the result that some people think he landed in the trees a few miles short of the threshold.

Flying around India, you notice the use of callsigns is optional. Entire conversations with no use of callsign after the initial call, which is sheer laziness. Terminology is applied haphazardly in R/T or not used at all.

Every now and then this laziness and/or confusion of terminology leads to a disaster. (No, not referring to this case)

[Capt Apache]

AI crash: Focus back on expat pilots - Yahoo! India News (http://in.news.yahoo.com/241/20100522/1257/tnl-ai-crash-focus-back-on-expat-pilots.html)

"Expat pilots should be removed because they are not familiar with the diverse topography in India" a retired Indian Airlines pilot, who did not wish to be identified, said.

Diverse topography...:confused: WTF...Does he think expats were flying over the ocean all their life....


"Many a times, foreign pilots are unable to follow the instructions because of the difference in our accent. Also we find it hard to understand what an expat pilot is saying in his hard accent," an ATC source said.


WTF is a hard accent....An accent with a hard on.

[Tofu Racing]

Gringobr:
I think the first accident to be filmed was Air NZ which flew into a mountain in Antarctica in 1979.

Actually, it was a BOAC 911, 1966, a 8 mm film shot by one of the passengers during the flight.

[shneidertrophy]

AI Pilots making remarks about expat pilots flying there!!!!

It is absolutely disgusting they use this sad tragedy in order to make a point against expat pilots! Out of years of experience flying in and out the smelly continent I can only say that INDIA is dangerous as far aviation is concerned.

Bad infrastructure, low discipline from ATC and local pilots, weather and topography all do their thing. But without expat pilots the situation would be even more catastrophical.

VOCL, VOML etc are ill-designed airports just awaiting for accidents like this to happen. Monsoons are part of the WX profile for 6 months out of 12, yet nobody bothered so far to construct descent runways (grooved, horizontal end long enough) to cope with modern aviation. These airports basically have been constructed by the Brits long time ago and have barely been updated. Most airports have large pending ICAO findings with regards to safety.

Last remarks with regards to language: ICAO considers Indians as native English language speakers so they all get a prof level 6 stamped on their licence. Yet according to their owns statement the accents are soo straong only themselves can understand what is being said most of the time.....:D

[Capt Apache]

When we told them to change FDTL rules they told us to FO....Now they will leave no stone unturned to put the entire blame on the dead Pilot.

[Farrell]

I wonder how many more variations on flight parameters will we have before the end of the day?

To clarify.....during this time of the year, a lot of IX flights land very close to MLW - stocked up with fuel and baggage - that's almost 70 tons.

(if you have ever done a Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Muscat or Doha run to India you will know the insane amounts of stuff that pax carry)

For IX, flaps are 40 for VOML, and auto-brakes must be set to max.

A lot of pilots opt to be below GS to touch down as early as possible (high speed, high weight) and even then are taking the full length to stop.

All above aside.....no one knows what happened.

There's a lot of folks out here on this forum who used to work with this crew - both pilots are held in very high regard.
Maybe think about that before jumping to conclusions.

Farrell

[STS]

Tanjug are reporting that JAT Airways have confirmed that the Captain was, indeed, one of their pilots.

There are several links online (http://www.smedia.rs/biznis/detalji.php?id=13209&vest=JAT-ervejz-potvrdio-da-je-Zlatko-Glusica-njihov-pilot) to the story, but none that I can see in English yet.

The long and short of it, is that JAT release their pilots to take up work with various companies whilst the company still continue to pay their pension and benefits. There seems to be an agreement in place between JAT and Air India regarding the pilots, training at Vrsac, and access to US/Canadian routes via Belgrade. Nothing new - and I remember the guys who left to join Ryanair during the UN sanctions in the 90s - but this seems to be a more formal agreement.

[pbogdanovic]

Cpt. was Zlatko Glusica, captain from Jat Airways, flying since 1979 with over 10.000 hours.

[iflytb20]

The sad part of all this is that even before the smoke settled, the blame game has begun. Some people are blaming the airport, some the pilot and a few the pilot's nationality.

And this hurts us even more as we lost 6 of our colleagues in this tragedy. I had the pleasure of flying with the Capt in the past and i can tell you he was a very professional pilot and a through gentleman . I enjoyed my flights with him and learned a lot from him.

The fact is that the plane crashed on landing - but let's not blame a person who cannot defend his actions. He may or may not have taken a decision which led to this crash. But till we know for sure, lets just pray for his soul.

The media here are going mad - blaming everything under the sun. And this debate about the expats being the cause - utter bulls##t. Hopefully they will recover the recorders by tomorrow and the truth will come out. Since ours is a relatively small company, this has hit everyone hard.

@ Farrell
As per our company policy, IXE is a F40 landing airport. At MLW, the F40 Vref is typically 139 KIAS. The leased birds [non-SFP] have a F40 Vref of 141 KIAS at MLW [MLW for all IX acft is 66360 Kg]

[alphabravocharlie1]

@iflytb20

Brother, thats not the point.

The point is when all the arrogant expats have been crying out loud all the while about impending "smoking holes" in India, because of inexperienced low time spoilt brats, ,,, this unfortunate thing happened at the hands of a very experienced expat !

This seriously demands for a thorough debate on whether we really need so many expats and whether 10,000+ hours really mean safety or just a big fat logbook and a flying time bomb.

Sorry if this sounds harsh and sadistic, but thats the fact.

[Capt Apache]

this unfortunate thing happened at the hands of a very experienced expat !



Did it...Really!!....So you were on board were you...You are no better than any of those you seek to scathe.

[FEHERTO]

I am a little bit confused. No one of the posters here had been present, but half know already the cause of this sad accident.

Let the investigation team work and get the cause confirmed. This is the moment to make judgement about the airport, crew, ATC or whatever.

Everybody who blames now an individual or organisation without facts is nothing else than an idi....

[Max Stryker]

Having just read the article about a joined drive by indian pilots, ATC and authorities to rid the Indian skies of foreign pilots, due to their "inability" to safely operate in India's "challenging topography", and their "hard accents" challenging ATC, I would like to offer several opinions, having tried real hard to curb my enthusiasm for writing "Indians want foreigners out, reeeaally?", and attempting to keep this civilized and at the level.

A suggestion of "challenging topography" unprofessional at best, and the captain whom the journo has interviewed seems to not have learned much during his career, having uttered such nonsense. I will argue that any proficient pilot, Commander or F/O, is fully capable of reading any and all charts and flying accordingly. Mangalore, just like Innsbruck is an airport which required qualification - again, this is freely available to anyone the company wants qualified for this airport. Suggesting that being born in India somehow grants special powers of topography-conquering is...well, bollocks.

Hard accents? Sure, everybody has his own accent. We laugh at some, we squint and try harder to understand some of the others, but if an ATC controller cannot understand an aircraft, than he has no business manning his station. Do the interested parties in India also propose the rest of the world banning Indian a/c from flying outside of the subcontinent, because their pilots will then presumably also have trouble understanding foreign ATC?

People like this, and statements like this make me sick. I have no doubt that the expat in question, although I do not know him, and now never will, was fully qualified, as was his Indian F/O. They either committed a tragic error, or suffered a catastrophic equimpent failure - either of which they paid for with their lives, and the lives of all souls on board.

The political trolls crawling into the papers can go and crawl back under the rock they crawled out from.:yuk:

[Brookfield Abused]

Both AI and AIE have been overdue for such an accident!

Having personally been PREVIOUSLY involved with them and their training for 2 years it had to happen!

This will certainly be PILOT ERROR leading to a non-stabilzed approach/CFIT!
How many times did we see this in the sim or doing line training and Checks? Plenty and really nobody at this company really cared too much!
So we'd failed em, and somebody else would pass them, sign them off they would go!

It was AIE policy to allow Line Captains (zero experience nor certified) to do Line Training for FO's on such sectors to rush them through and save time and money!

The airport is nothing really critical.
The weather was nothing compared to what I have landed in there.
Demonstrated Landing distance was not the issue, and I doubt any mechanical faults contributed either.
Just wait for the CVR and DFDR, it well tell all about this crew!
The crew had at least 18 hrs rest prior.
The crew most likely slept for an hour or more during the crossing each way to DXB, so I see fatigue as not an issue.
This a/c was essentially loaded with all options (excluding HUD).

As a matter of fact, it was a fellow JAT pilot who piloted VT-AXC in Cochin off the runway after touchdown in CAVOK conditions after performing an Auto-land (non-SOP) and causing Millions of $ in damage and nearly destroying the aircraft. It was the Monsoon soaked grass on the south side of RWY 27 that saved the a/c from being torn apart!
He was grounded and then a few months later re-checked and Released.

Who knows how many incidents and accident like this have just been brushed aside which involved BOTH Indian and Foreign Pilots?
While I was there - at least 10 or so.

I have over 50 Voyage /Failed Sim or Line Check Reports from my time there covering many of the below points.

Nepotism, several ignorant and under qualified Managers/Line Trainers/ Instructors, lack of following SOP's, non-existent CRM, seriously faulted Checking and Training practices (which produces exactly this type of an event), have made this 737 Fleet a disaster waiting to happen.

It is the passengers and cabin crew who are the real unlucky ones here having placed their mis-guided trust into such an Operation. These people usually return to India after 1-2 yrs of slave like conditions, bringing with them 30-50 kgs of gifts, housewares and the last paychecks.

I'm sure both Pilots did even know the proper EMERGENCY COMMANDOS, if they even had a chance to use.

While there, we NEVER did Emergency Training and I am confident still has never been done with crews!

What is really sad - the Crews under AI's insurance are NOT insured.

The surviving members of the pax., may be lucky and receive a $30,000 insurance payout many years from now. Always a serious drawback when flying with such 3rd World insured Operations.

So maybe this will finally wake up the DGCA and AI and have them look at this operation, its training and checking!

To Right this Wrong, the Fleet and Airline (AI) would have to be grounded, and painstakingly restructured the proper way!

[Joles]

A whole deal of runway information here in the legal cases that this apt has been up against .

Were the petitioners right ??

Mangalore's new runway was legally challenged: Rediff.com India News (http://news.rediff.com/special/2010/may/22/mangalores-new-runway-was-legally-challenged.htm)

Did we have to lose so many lives to find out ?

[aviator17]

possible incap. of commander after touchdown, no reverse/no manual braking???:zzz:

[Capt Apache]

Well done wiley.

This is what I think.Surely a major cause.

F A T I G U E !

[Willie Everlearn]

If the collective intellect of Indian Aviation thinks the way to solve (although hide is a better term) their safety problems is to label expats as persona non grata then I say, give it a go. :D
Show the world what you've got!!

All expats out!!! Leave the Indians to their own devices and when inability, inexperience, lack of infrastructure, and egos of the incompetent expose one of the most corrupt, appauling, and disasterous aviation systems on the planet we can all step back and with our very clear and HARD english accents, say "we told you so". :confused:

Is this really a sensible way...or method of dealing with the present day realities facing Indian aviation? :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

I'm not knowing.
Ooops, I should have said, I don't know.

[Bruce Wayne]

If the collective intellect of Indian Aviation is to solve the problem by labelliing expats as personna non grata then, so be it.

It'll likely happen.

Previously, certain states have had issue with poor maintenance and authorative oversight being the cause of incidents and accident. The grand resolve: ban of aircraft in public transport over 20 years of age.

"That'll solve the problem!"

It hasnt and it wont.

These states have often mainted higher incident rates because of the desire to focus 'blame' outside of political cause and circumstance.

By the time the investigating bodies have concluded and published their findings, of which the NTSB will have involvement as the accident aircraft is manufactured and certified under the FAA, there will have been moves to project the 'blame' into certain quarters and legislation, if not draft legislation will have either been passed or will be underway.

Already, on this thread alone, there have been assumptions and moves to project the cause and circumstance toward being an expat PIC.

Frankly, that is utter bolleaux.

It is an insult and slur to the deceased involved the accident, both passengers and crew. It is an insult to the families of the deceased.

In a professional environment, only the FACTS should be the basis of discussion into contributory factors, resolution and prevention.

Anything else allows future recurrence and a failure to prevention of future occurence.

Until the CVR & DFDR data is processed and anlysed it is all suppostion and conjecture.

[xuejiesandi]

Hey Guys,

Please don't hold all of the Indians victim of some Jack:mad:'s comments. I'm an Indian, I'm a pilot & I'm looking for work & still I think expats are fine working here. Any one saying that shouldn't be proud of their own heritage & freedom of democracy, where an employer has right to recruit whom he wants. As far as any company wants you, you are welcome in my country & should stay as long as you are needed. Unionism is not a successful phenomenon in this century. Sooner people understand it the better.

In my opinion, aviation is a worldwide profession, any one, from any where should be allowed to go & work any place he is required.

[wileydog3]

What is flt time from departure to destination?

Did crew fly legs prior?

What segment was this in the trip series. First, middle, last leg? How many legs had crew flown together?

[Capt Apache]

Departure Dubai 1.15 Arrival Mangalore 6.30 Duration 3hr45min as per the website.

Curious to know the rest.

[Habari]

1/ I wonder if any of the Indian Captains wanting the expats out of India would care to mention the initial failure of audit carried out by the FAA on the DGCA. If not rectified this would have resulted in VT registered aircraft being banned from US airspace. EU authorities would have followed suit as a matter of course.
2/ What did the SOPs of IX say about crew landing at Mangalore. Was it "captains only", or could this leg and landing been the co-pilots? If so, maybe the captain was unable to correct
the problem in the time available.
3/ Having flown in India for some time, I agree with comments above about poor ATC, RT from local pilots, poor airmanship and bad training for local staff. Many local pilots with 210hrs and multi IF rating are recruited by local companies and put in right hand seat of sophisticated jet aircraft.

[andrew_wallis]

alphabravocharlie1 - your last post has to be one of those few posts that has absolutely nothing useful in it-well done, I'm impressed that you could, without any evidence decide the crash is a direct result of an expat flying! Either that or you're jumping to conclusions because it suits your view of reality. Then you tell a guy who has actually flown with the captain that he has missed the point, presumably because his comments don't suit your view of reality.
Have you considered a career in crash investigation, as i think you can be relied on to always come to the same conclusions??
Which are you- arrogant or stupid?

[iflytb20]

What is flt time from departure to destination?
Did crew fly legs prior?
What segment was this in the trip series. First, middle, last leg? How many legs had crew flown together?

The crew normally operate VOML-OMDB-VOML. It is about 3:45 hrs per leg with an hour long halt at Dubai. So this was their second leg of the night.

[captjns]

Well... time will tell as to the fate of the expat. FATAs expire on the 31st of July. Will the DCGA renew or not renew the FATAs? That is the question. Will the Indian airlines who employ expats such as Spice Jet, Jet Airways, India Express, to name a few sit idly if the DGCA does not renew the FATAs? I don't think these airlines who are recovering from poor economic times desire to take a slide back.

Perhaps the locals should realize the presence of the expats is to allow the locals to get up to speed so they can operate their own aircraft in a manner deemed to be safe in accordance with their respective airlines' SOPs and DGCA regulations.

Again, time will tell.

On a side note... back in March an expat took ill during a QTA from Cochin to Doah. The Times of India, a propaganda rag, labled the first officer as a hero for single handedly landing the Jet. The article failed to mention that the captain was in the cockpit during the landing and the first officer, by the miracle of the Sky Gods, was able to engage Autopilot "B" for a successful auto land. The captain taxied to the gate without any event. What can I say... thank god for Microsoft simulator pilots. Keep pushing those buttons.

[wileydog3]

iflytb20 said

The crew normally operate VOML-OMDB-VOML. It is about 3:45 hrs per leg with an hour long halt at Dubai. So this was their second leg of the night.

So this is an all night trip as a single trip, not, for example, day 2 of a 4 day series? And Mangalore is a crew domincile?

Mangalore-Dubai-Mangalore with 7.5 hrs flying with about a 12 hr duty period?

Tough night.

[Cross Check]

I was going to pick on a few sweeping comments and a few naive posters but after a coffee and a moments contemplation I'll generalise instead.

To those who believe that expat pilots are somehow less safe or a causal factor in any accident is a fallacy. While expat/local animosity in all industries has been around for time immemorial and, in aviation has the potential to adversely affect cockpit culture the reality is that "expats" wherever they may be can fly just as well, or badly, as any "local" pilot. For sure "expats" stuff up - take EK in MEL for example, but take a look at Garuda, Adam Air, Turkish or American and then try to tell me experienced locals don't make fatal errors of judgement also.

Attention needs to be focused on recruitment and check & training standards of airlines (and some DCA's) to improve safety rather than resorting to criminallisation of individuals or groups.

[AnthonyGA]

It's a long shot, but retrieving all electronic devices, especially cell phones and cameras, and trying to retrieve its memory, in the hopes of finding a recorded video from an incident/accident, would provide valuable information for the investigation.

Has it been done before? Or at least, are there legal implications that would hamper its use in the benefit of aviation safety?

There's an example of this floating around on YouTube: a video shot by a private pilot who attempted to turn around in a dead-end in the mountains and didn't make it. The video continues right up to the impact. The aircraft wasn't found for several years, and when it was, the videotape, which was strung all through the wreckage, wasn't immediately recognized for what it was. However, it was pieced together and restored well enough to show fair-quality images. The NTSB reference is DEN84FA308, and the accident occurred in 1984. The video is often shown to pilots for training purposes.

So, yes, if some videos can be recovered from the wreckage, they might be pretty useful, even if the cassettes are broken or whatever, and it has been done before.

[Capt Apache]

Can any of you intelligent people tell me what FDTL rules are followed in India cause when I checked here CIVIL AVIATION REQUIREMENTS (http://www.dgca.nic.in/rules/car-ind.htm) under Series J Part 3 I saw something like 'Kept in Abeyance'

[iflytb20]

tell me what FDTL rules are followed in India cause when I checked here CIVIL AVIATION REQUIREMENTS (http://www.dgca.nic.in/rules/car-ind.htm) under Series J Part 3 I saw something like 'Kept in Abeyance'

Try this http://dgca.nic.in/rules/aero-ind.htm. (http://dgca.nic.in/rules/aero-ind.htm)
When the new rule was put under Abeyance, everyone rolled back to the old one.

So this is an all night trip as a single trip, not, for example, day 2 of a 4 day series? And Mangalore is a crew domincile?
Mangalore-Dubai-Mangalore with 7.5 hrs flying with about a 12 hr duty period?
Tough night.

It is a single night pattern. In fact 90% of our flights are QTA ones. The entire trip involved an appx 10:30 hrs Duty Cycle

[Spadhampton]

When underdeveloped countries fail to learn the same aviation mistakes made and corrected in developed countries long before. The information is there, it’s free for everyone and easily adopted. Unfortunately the arrogance of stupidity and greed will not be denied. How many more have to die before common sense will prevail?

[Juliet Sierra Papa]

Some more interesting news here (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Did-airlines-bar-on-hard-landings-force-a-pilot-error/articleshow/5963900.cms) .

[Rananim]

Latest is that the a/c veered off centreline and wing struck something..ILS antenna?They then tried to get airborne again but they had a tail strike..speed below unstick, confirming that they were already well into deceleration and HAD ACTIVATED TR's(fair assumption-they landed long by all accounts and PF would have been anxious to get reversers asap).
ALso lot of talk on NDTV about Mangalore not complying with ICAO guidelines for tabletop airports...runoff was only 90m apparently before the ravine.HAvent been to this airport so cannnot confirm.
If you read between the lines and tread carefully you might reasonably come up with...a/c landed long at F40 and autobrake 2,perhaps 3.Pilot realises AB setting is insufficient and goes for manual braking...tire burst causes the veer and a/c hits antenna.With speed below unstick and perhaps at least one main gear off the concrete the attempt at a rwy GA is doomed.TR's must be assumed to have been activated..but immediately cancelled after controllability problem and forward GA thrust applied(asymmetrical spool-up further aggravates controllability).
I do know that SWA had their AB system de-activated at one point because they wanted the pilots to "feel" the aircraft under their toes.I also know that AB usage is mandated by SOP worldwide,esp ASia.In fact,full use of automation in everything is standard SOP throughout Asia.I have flown with pilots who have never felt the aircraft under their toes during landing.Some with 3000-4000 hours..all those hours and theyve never braked the damn thing themselves.Initial application is key..the point is not to "jump" on the pedals but ease into it initially and then go for max if needed.If youve never done it,you wont know will you?I never use AB myself except during strong x-wind ops.SOP's are clearly wrong here.Pilots must master manual braking first before relying on automatic.Your first attempt at a max manual stop should not be in a situation when you need it most.Line pilots can hone their skills in a semi-max manual stop on a long runway with light gross weights and low OAT..in this way theyre prepared for when they will really need the technique.If you're flat-footed about it and initial application is asymetrical and/or brutal,you'll wind up in trouble.I dont know if the tire burst was due to the tire itself or incorrect technique but I suspect a combination of the two.

Another misnomer here is the co-pilot had 66 landings at the airport..did he?Apparently the airline involved has this dreaded assisted TO and Landing SOP plus the airport is Captains only landing.So he didnt have 66 landings at Mangalore at all.8000' of concrete(even if tabletop) and outside monsoon season is no reason to restrict to Captains only.If in monsoon season,Id agree yes.

Expat vs local argument..any pilot can screw up.End of story.Nobody is infallible.Lets keep race out of this.No,the real culprit here is SOP vs Airmanship.This battle between the two permeates almost every crash.I firmly believe that.Recovery from hot/high and manual braking technique are examples of where airmanship and SOP's diverge.SOP's outlaw both but theyre both vital aspects of airmanship.Yes,a GA before touchdown(SOP) would have averted disaster here but what if you're low on fuel and your alternate is closing in.SOP is dogmatic.Airmanship is a pilots ability to adapt to the real world.

[MATELO]

Expat vs local argument..any pilot can screw up

I have not "googled" the web, but I am fairly confident this isnt the first air crash in India, and I am even more sure that an "local" aircrew has come to grief somewhere inside the Indian borders.

[13/31]

From my viewing of google earth, It appears that the Runway End Safety Area (RESA) at the SW end of rwy 06/24 exceeds the mandatory ICAO requirement of 90 metres from the end of the runway strip. I'm assuming the runway strip end coincides with the end of the concrete turning node which extends past the threshold. Even if the concrete turning node is a declared stopway, and the runway strip extends another 60 metres, then there still appears to be room for the mandatory minimum RESA.

Some one with Annex 14 knowledge and familiar with Bajpe may be able to elaborate.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Auto brakes will normally kick in faster than your manual braking, Rana, and the -800 has anti skid and locked wheel protection even if you use manual brakes. Hitting your brakes will not blow the tires unless there is a malfunction of some sort.
Now, if the anti skid is inop, then you have a problem if you are runway limited. Manual brakes in that case will very likely pop a tire or two.

I would never land in i.e. old Hyderabad in the rain with less than auto brake 3 on a heavy -800. Not Bombay RWY 27 either. It's not because I can't brake myself, but because the A/B system works very well. Particularly on a rain soaked, uneven surface.

As for aborting a landing after touch down? This is not a touch and go with "stand them up" and flaps 15 and away you go. It's an emergency procedure if you are in a very, very bad situation with no other options. Only one thing to do, firewall the throttles and hope you make it.

[protectthehornet]

maybe pilots in general are not as good as they once were. that they have become so dependent upon automation that the idea of landing within 200 feet of your touchdown spot has gone out the window.

there are plenty of short runway, or table top airports that I have operated into and I never took such things for granted. Flying is serious business and safety margins must be increased by all methods including pilot excellence.

I think we should be comparing and contrasting the recent american overshoot in the carribean islands (forgot where), southwest overshoot at chicago midway, and others.

[woodyspooney]

Maybe it could have been trying to abort the landing after the reversers have been deployed. It takes an awfully long time for the reversers to cycle back for the engines to regain forward thrust and before you know it, you are outta runway.

[ManaAdaSystem]

There was a bundle of -800's going off the end last winter, Ryanair, Air Berlin, Wizz?, etc.
The -800 is just a lot harder to stop than the other 737 models out there.

[protectthehornet]

don't forget the airbus with MEL'd thrust reverse on one side, also a table top airport.

loss of life similiar.

don't we learn????????

[Speed Freak]

dont know about express but in atleast one other indian carrier from the gulf there is this procedure wherein cabin baggage of the passengers is taken from them before entering the aircraft and put in the cargo hold below. reason being they also carry a duty free bag and there is no space left in the overhead bins. now for load and trim purposes, this cabin bag is not weighed but a general rule of 7 kgs per passenger is applied. however the duty free bag itself weighs around 5-7 kg plus the oiginal cabin baggage whose weight is calculated as 7 kg but most of the times could exceed that too...so for a 100 odd passengers you end up with 700kg of extra weight not mentioned anywhere on the trim and all carriers also carry out tankering so even if you are landing at mlw , you most certainly end up 1t-2t over that.

[captjns]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why the runways in India are not grooved... even the newly constructed or resurfaced runways:eek::mad::eek:!

At best, the ATC and aviation system in India can be compared to as organized chaos.

Anyone been to the Dungeons of the DGCA in Delhi lately? Start there and you'll have a better understanding as to why the aviation system in India is the way it is:{.

[Calvin Hops]

I agree with woody......can never overemphasise that once the reversers are deployed, the pilot is really committed to stop. From preliminary reports, this seem to be the likely case.

[Joles]

See this
Govt move to put pilot rest rules in abeyance draws flak - India - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/3097276.cms?prtpage=1)

and this

DGCA rules endanger lives: Experts | Deccan Chronicle | 2009-12-21 (http://www.deccanchronicle.com/chennai/dgca-rules-endanger-lives-experts-206)

[fireflybob]

maybe pilots in general are not as good as they once were. that they have become so dependent upon automation that the idea of landing within 200 feet of your touchdown spot has gone out the window.

protectthehornet, I take you point but 99% of landings are manual - I don't see how becoming dependent upon automation necessarily means that one cannot touchdown at the correct point on the runway.

If you practice every landing as though the runway is limiting, then there should be little problem in landing when it is. But you have to establish in your mind that if the wheels are not on the ground by a certain point then you're going to execute a go around.

Perhaps we should also bear in mind that landing distance is a function of the square of the speed (double the touchdown speed and you quadruple the landing distance - in terms of kinetic energy - 0.5mv(squared)). This means that a few extra knots is going to make a big difference to the landing distance.

[Brookfield Abused]

If you operate any aircraft you are responsible to know your performance!
That's why there is a QRH next to the Pilots and a FCTM. All is covered.

So whether you land with a TWC, one or both rev. inop, anti-skid inop, etc., its your job as CM1/CM2, PIC, PICUS, or FO to know the basics...... will the ac stop or not.

So no excuse to land anywhere (and unless a surprise mechanical failure of spoilers, brakes, etc. upon touchdown... or an environmental factor (damp, wet, contaminated)- Downburts, etc.) and go off the end or side of the runway (only excuse a miro-burst from the side or gear collapse).

You should always be able to stay on a 45m wide runway and within the LDA!
If not, the choice is obvious.

If you cannot manage this, then WTF are you doing in a cockpit.

So a tip. Next time you land. Take the QRH or whatever, look at your performance and ask your self - where will I stop if I land at the 3,000 ft mark (end of the Touchdown Zone) with above mentioned failures.
I bet you it may be the first time?

[protectthehornet]

while the actual touchdown may be manual, I would like you to think about this.

at what point do YOU turn the autopilot off? five hundred above the runway? 1000'?

I made it a point to hand fly from cruise/tod/ to touchdown.

If you are depending upon the automation to trim up every time you change configuration on approach...if you aren't using the approach phase to get the feel of slow flying the plane...then you aren't gaining the skills for that tough landing.

even on a non coupled approach, I've seen people fly on autopilot to the threshold...not gaining any experience in the feel of the plane at that speed.

all the best,

[Joles]

of the scattered survivors comments ? Any clues ? They mention a/c "vibrated and cracked open" ; flames all around esp the fore...

[protectthehornet]

did I read that the nose tires blew? if so, perhaps a porpoising/wheelbarrowing on touchdown? too fast on approach?

[noelbaba]

Did airline's bar on hard landings force a pilot 'error'? (http://worldaviationjournal.********.com/2010/05/did-airlines-bar-on-hard-landings-force.html)



timesofindia.indiatimes.com

MUMBAI: Air crash investigators worldwide share a belief__that the initial reports on the probable cause of an aircrash usually turn out to be untrue.

The Air India Express top brass would do well to hope that this bit of industry wisdom holds true in the Mangalore aircrash case too since initial reports from aviation circles point at pilot error arising out of the management's highly controversial policies.

According to sources, the AI Express Boeing 737-800 aircraft touched down deep on runway 24 of Mangalore airport, much beyond the stipulated touchdown zone. Why would a senior commander miss the touchdown zone and hit the runway? Here's where the airline management's involvement comes in. There is a diktat for Air India Express pilots which bars hard landings. A circular issued by the airline about a year ago says that landings should not exceed 1.65G.

What is a 1.65G landing? When the undercarriage of a plane touches down on the runway, the sink rate goes from say 200 feet per minute to zero feet per minute in a few seconds. So for a higher sink rate, the impact on touchdown is greater and vice versa. A hard landing typically occurs when the sink rate is high and the aircraft touches down on the runway with a thud instead of doing a smooth transition onto ground.

The hard or smooth quotient of a landing is expressed in a term called "touchdown G". A 1G landing means the force which acted on aircraft tyres at the instant of touchdown is equivalent to the weight of the aircraft (1 x aircraft weight). A 2G landing would mean the force is two times the weight of the aircraft. Higher the value of G, harder the landing. The AI Express circular limits landings to 1.65G, though according to the aircraft manufacturer Boeing's specifications the aircraft can safely handle up to 2.5G landings.

"Every time a landing exceeds 1.65G, the pilot gets hauled up by the air safety department. Two hard landings and the pilot is sent for a training session. Passengers also complain about hard landings and so the airline is particular about smooth landings which are achieved with lower touchdown G values," said a source. Now, one of the ways to achieve a smooth touchdown is to come over the runway at a higher speed and float for some distance before letting the landing gear touch down on the runway. This reduces the G force on impact. "Pilots often land a few feet ahead of the touchdown zone when they float over the runway to make a smooth landing," said a source. "The AI Express commander too seems to have employed these tactics. His aircraft missed the touchdown point," the source added. What the commander executed was a late, smooth touchdown at high speed. "‘It is indeed pilot error, but it is an error that was forced by the management policy for smooth landings. A hard landing may be an uncomfortable landing, but sometimes it is a safer landing than a smooth landing," the source said.

Capt Z Glusica was popular among his first officers as he allowed them to do landings under his supervision. "Any commander with the kind of experience that Capt Glusica had can safely allow a first officer to land. But the AI Express air safety department is set against it. If a first officer never learns to land under the supervision of an experienced commander, how will he handle a situation if for instance the commander gets incapacitated?" asked the source. "Even if we assume that it was the first officer who touched down late then all that the commander had to do was do a go-around (i.e., take off again and come around for a second attempt at landing) and the aircraft would have landed safely," the official said.

A B737 aircraft can safely do a go-around after touchdown. But it cannot do a safe go-around if the decision to do a go-around is taken late or if it is taken after the reverse thrusters have been deployed (thrust in the opposite direction so as decelerate the aircraft). A go-around after thrust reversal selection is prohibited. "The airline policy is such that pilots try to avoid go-arounds as they have to explain it to the air safety department. A go-around infact is a highly recommended safety procedure when the touchdown is deep. But due to the airline diktat, the commander must have had a few microseconds of indecision after the aircraft touched down. So he seems to have either opted for the go-around late or he did it after deploying reverse thrusters. Since the go-around attempt failed, this is a plausible explanation," said the source.

There are unconfirmed reports that the plane's nose wheel burst after touchdown. It is difficult to bring an aircraft to a halt near the end of a runway as this portion bears aircraft skid marks and rubber desposits which affects braking action. When the plane attempted to lift off again the aircraft's wing hit the localiser (a T-shaped frangible antenna positioned perpendicular to the runway central line and located about 150 feet from the end of the runway) and then plunged into the valley. "Since the wreckage was well off the runway one can say that there seemed to have been an attempt to do a go around. Only investigations will reveal why did the attempt go wrong," says the source.

The pilots also brought in the fatigue angle to explain the wrong decisions taken by the pilot. "It does not matter how many days rest he got prior to these flights that he operated. He took off from Calicut on Friday night for Dubai and then came to Mangalore. The entire operation was done at night, during circadian low. His alertness level at the end of that 9-10 hour night duty surely would not have been very high," the pilot added. For the last three years, pilots of Air India, Indian Airlines and Jet Airways have been pushing for better pilot rest rules in India. Currently, the rest rules followed are the ones formulated in 1992.

[Aceninja]

It was not the kind of news that I wanted to wake up to this morning. My heart goes out to all involved, both pilots, pax and family members. I also had a fear after having learnt of the so called "expat pilot" that this whole incident would be hijacked, for lack of a better word, by certain parties who are pushing their own agenda. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that kicking the expats out would prevent future accidents from happening. As far as accents go, everybody's got one, if you work in the aviation industry its a fact of life we do not live in bubbles anymore. There are so many different languages (18 official with about 600 dialects) in India itself that there are a plethora of accents floating about. We can't ban everyone now can we? Before we start blaming our fellow aviators and talk about kicking off "expats" maybe we should be looking at the crew rest procedures and turn around times, equipment and maintenance etc. Anything other than that would be tantamount to looking at blood types and horoscopes to determine ones aptitude to fly. And yes if it does matter, I am Indian as well.

[swish266]

I witnessed the first 2 years of the airline boom in India from up close.
Just to mention an add from a 2005 Delhi daily:
"Now anybody can fly for 500 Rupees (less than 10 EUR at that time)."
Another header from the same daily a couple of years latter:
"24 year old captain with a 19 year old F/O"

Unfortunately you get what you pay for.
Many airlines from all major alliances only reveal the operator of certain flights at a stage when if not impossible, it is at least a hassle to change your route or booking.
2009 was the first year in the 21st century when human error became again the top factor in commercial aviation accidents/incidents.
Unfortunately the SLF will have to pay the "BLOOD TAX" more often if they do not act in a timely and decisive manner to stop the likes of O'Leary, Malya and Fernandez and a million uneducated, corrupt and inefficient people from Developing and Developed countries from further diminishing the importance of the job of professional pilot.
:mad:

[White Knight]

I made it a point to hand fly from cruise/tod/ to touchdown.

If you are depending upon the automation to trim up every time you change configuration on approach...if you aren't using the approach phase to get the feel of slow flying the plane...then you aren't gaining the skills for that tough landing.


What a load of bull..................

All you do is load up your colleague, especially on a dark cr@ppy night at the end of 12 hour duty..... Handflying is fine from time to time, but seriously - from top of drop to touchdown??????????

[ExSp33db1rd]

........fairly confident this isnt the first air crash in India, and I am even more sure that an "local" aircrew has come to grief somewhere inside the Indian borders.


Of course, remember the 747 that was rolled into the sea off Bombay in less than a minute after take off one dark night in good weather ? All 'local' crew too. ( tho' I don't subscribe to that inference and don't want to go there. )

I was an observer at the subsequent Court of Inquiry in the Bombay High Court, and sadly the emphasis in finding the cause was entirely related to who was going to pay - Boeing for installing a dud ADI ? ( Artificial Horizon, the failure of which was assumed, but never categorically proved, to be the cause of the pilot incorrectly applying 100 deg of bank at around 1700 ft ) The ADI instrument manufacturer for making a dud ADI ? The airlines' engineering dept. for not maintaining the ADI correctly ? or the airlines' Flt. Ops Dept for not training pilots to recognise a failure of the ADI ?

But then we know that - sadly - everyone scrambles out from under, leaving the dead pilot no chance to explain, therefore it is clearly Pilot Error.

In this case the Judge came to that conclusion straight away; the SID required a 10 deg change of heading at 1500 ft.and the pilot, with everything working correctly at that stage and climbing safely skywards started to apply bank passing rapidly through 1300 ft. Clearly pilot error pronounced the judge, the SID states that a turn will be made at 1500 ft. not 1300 ft. Pilot Error.

Possibly, maybe, but not for that reason of course, the ADI would have reacted in exactly the same way had the turn been started a couple of seconds later at 1500 ft. as prescribed on the SID chart.

[protectthehornet]

white knight...you don't know jack. load up the colleague? what is he there for...just to sit down?

[Crosswind Limits]

What's the point in routinely hand flying from TOD? Maybe occasionally I can understand. The AP is there for a reason to take the workload off the pilot so he can concentrate on things like situational awareness etc. For sure as White Knight says, you will load up the PNF, especially if it's a busy TMA with plenty of ATC frequency changes, crap weather etc and achieve very little in the process.

Hand flying SIDs every now and then is good for instrument flying. I do this mainly with the FD. Also hand flying approaches from before glide slope intercept fairly frequently is definitely recommended. Again I mainly use the FD but in reasonable conditions would be happy to go raw data. IMHO this type of low level handling is far more beneficial than hand flying from TOD!

[shanx]

The most likely cause of this accident could be the FATIGUE factor.

The bean counters are solely responsible for playing with the lives of passengers by lobbying for increase in FDTL.

The paying passengers need to be seriously enlightened on how unsafe their flights are when the crews are stressed, frustrated (degrading T&Cs etc) and fatigued.

It is extremely alarming to even think of what we might expect in the near future, when we have pilots at the controls, who are drained, memotivated and frustrated because they had to pay for their type ratings, line training and to get a job !! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif

[Neupielot]

you don't know jack. load up the colleague? what is he there for...just to sit down?

.....................:hmm:
All you do is load up your colleague, especially on a dark cr@ppy night at the end of 12 hour duty..... Handflying is fine from time to time, but seriously - from top of drop to touchdown??????????
and
Maybe occasionally I can understand. The AP is there for a reason to take the workload off the pilot so he can concentrate on things like situational awareness

Depending on the other guy's experience,capability, wx and type of airfield, you might be effectively removing him almost totally from the "loop". Like they say, if he's load up with heading changes, level changes, atc freq, clearance readback, speed changes, config changes..etc there might come a point he's just gonna do what u ask and lost his monitoring capability?:=

[BOAC]

No-one can be serious here? FATIGUE? What?! Do you mean 'tired' or do you have some evidence that fatigue existed? The two are quite separate. In any case, around 8:30-9 hours FDP is not exactly punishing, is it?

White Night - we are not worthy to comment on this 'hand-flying' thing - you need to be an 'ace' to know.:ugh:

[Wannabe Flyer]

All arguments aside I wanted to compare some salient points between an accident a few days ago (Afriquiyah) and this one

1. Both were new aircraft
2. Both were in about the same phase of flight
3. Both were being flown by captains with substantial number of hours under their belt
4. Both captains were familiar with the destination/homebase (AIE captain had done this route 19 times prior).
5. Both flight were arriving at or around the same time of the day
6. Viz and Wx were normal with nothing extra ordinary being reported.
7. IX was a QTA and Afriqya could be almost termed as this or in simpler terms very long point to point hours for the crew (Fatigue).

They both are have an disconcertingly similar pattern wherein by some horrible miscalculation an other wise competent crew on an other wise normal day flew a perfectly good aircraft into the ground.

Posters have used terms such as "gethomeittiss". As a lay person without passing judgment in both cases this seems to be the pattern where an exhausted, overworked crew doing all night flights with the body clock out of control on return to home base got complacement as the approach was simple. Before I get shot down I am not blaming the pilot and in fact I am blaming the situation countries in this region have gotten them selves into.

A Pilot can fly several sectors within India/US/Europe departing at sun up and returning by sun down and that will tire him out, but what will drive a person into the ground is a routine similar to what this crew did. They probably attempted to sleep during the day, woke up at 16:00 to reach the airport. Flew out at 20:00 on a QTA and were arriving back home dreaming of their bed and the next few days of (that also if???). Add that up and the guys were probably up for the past 14 hours with another 2 to go before they could hit the sack. Who knows their previous day schedules???

Well why has this not happened in the past (or has it with such frequency?).

Well low cost carriers, Rs 500 fares, desire to cut costs and allow everyone to fly are making airlines find innovative ways to cut costs.

1st went the food, then the baggage and the liquor, then the seat assignment. When all that could be taken from a passenger was taken they start looking at crew. Once they are done with that they will look at the aircraft, as to what all capital expenditure can be trimmed.

If forums from the ME South Asia and South East Asia are to be read then all crews seem to have this grouse about QTA. For a SLF one did not understand and infact used wonder how a person could complain with a 90 hour work load..........reality is that on QTA in these zones it can be a 18 hour day from pillow to pillow. NOT SAFE. For those in the US and Europe such QTA flights (by that I mean overnight) simply are not there due to the noise restrictions in place.

India - Gulf
India - Hong Kong
India - BKK
India - SIN
India - KL
Sri Lanka - India

These in my opinion are all the routes that airlines are trying to save money on by either doing QTA or using same crew for the return after minimum mandated rest period. Also these ports for the most part do not have the noise restrictions other countries have

I would like to seem some DGCA action on this where in such QTA flights are then pushed to all day time flights and over night rest for crew is mandated for other flights. If it costs a few bucks so what. At least 158 lives will be saved the next time.

In true clinical fashion the PIC will be blamed for reason. In fact what they should blame is the Cause as stated above.

Time for India to bring in noise regulations as in the west. if not anything else it will at least ensure such QTA and long hours become un viable. The crew can then rest at the time man should ie Night.

As in every accident it has been said it is multiple causes that lead to a tragedy. I hope this cause receives it's due attention to.

As an SLF I have always avoided night flights (except ULH). I get tired why wouldn't the crew?

RIP to those aviators and the other souls and hope someone learns from these mistakes

:(

[be1900]

you think you can do better?

[swish266]

Hear, hear!!!
I'll never call this SLF "SLF" again...

[fireflybob]

They both are have an disconcertingly similar pattern wherein by some horrible miscalculation an other wise competent crew on an other wise normal day flew a perfectly good aircraft into the ground.

Wannabe Flyer, sorry don't agree with this. Maybe one was CFIT but, from initials report, the Mangalore one was an overrun for reasons to be determined.

[White Knight]

Very true BOAC....

white knight...you don't know jack.
Who is jack? You're right - I don't know him.. Please tell me who is is.

As for flying - I think I'll let the AP do what it's supposed to do and let me manage the aeroplane.....

[Tee Emm]

Hand flying SIDs every now and then is good for instrument flying. I do this mainly with the FD.

OMG!! What a clever laddie hanging on to the FD like a baby's dummy. The FD is an AID to navigation - not the be-all, end all. Turn off the FD really doesn't hurt very much. Try it. :ok:

[Akron36]

From AV Herald "....both throttles were found in fully forward positions".

Does this mean that full thrust had been engaged and that the aircraft was likely configured for TOGA?

Or the converse, or something else?

Thanks

[Airbus_a321]

@white knight
I fully agree. We have all the automatics to make flying easier and safer, so we should use the automatics - as long as they work fine -

Those automatics cost a lot of money. why not use them ? we should be lucky to have the automatics and my first aim is to work with the automatics, to use them !!!

if some superpilots want to do handflying in excess, take a 152 and fly around. passengers in the back dont pay the fare for the fun of the handflying superpilots, but to get from a to b in a safe and stressless way

I know very well why all this superpilots prefer "handflying:yuk:" "raw data:yuk:".
its because they are unable to work with the automatics, they cannot use it, because they dont have any clue about the automatics, therefore.....see above.

no longer we are "little Lindberghs", but AircraftSystemManager. We have to manage the automatics of an aircraft. thats what we are paid for.

in no case we are paid for flying rawdata SID or STAR, handfly from TOD to LDG, etc :yuk: this is just NON-Airmanship, and a crappy behaviour

[Tee Emm]

In true clinical fashion the PIC will be blamed for reason. In fact what they should blame is the Cause as stated above.

From what I read in pprune the pilot landed long on a wet runway and skidded off the end. Happens a lot in some countries but people don't always get killed. But to put the blame on everyman and his dog, while excluding the pilot, is stretching things a little too far..

[be1900]

can you do a auto landing the mangalore airport i do not think so ap is ok but stick and rudder you save your day many time

[BOAC]

Akron - it means very little. The FDR will tell all. When an a/c suffers the fate that this one did, all sorts of levers etc get moved. The only 'likely' inference we can draw is that the reversers were not deployed at the moment it came to a stop, but again, severe crash damage could throw that theory out. There is very little point in speculating.

[Airbus_a321]

@be1900
you can do an autoland on any airport with an operational ils

[4PW's]

Offset ILS.

Glideslope less than 2.75 degrees, if memory serves, or greater than 3.2 degrees.

No autolanding off those baby's.

Another accident!

Hope this trend is at an end.

[protectthehornet]

test your self white knight (and others)...Next landing see if you can put her down right on the spot you have preselected. or certainly within 200 feet of that spot.

narrowbodies , let's say the fixed distance marker (1000')

widebodies, let's say the end of the 1500' marker.

And dear pilots, if you can't keep situational awareness on a dark stormy night while answering the radio, selecting altitudes and headings...oh MY!

[SLFinAZ]

As for flying - I think I'll let the AP do what it's supposed to do and let me manage the aeroplane.....

Gee and here I thought pilots actually flew the airplane:ugh: The entire concept of the PF as a systems manager lies at the heart of this all. When it reaches a point that your getting more actual "stick and rudder" time in the sim then the cockpit I think that high lights a growing crisis...

[wileydog3]

This morning a passenger is quoted as saying the landing seemed normal but once it touched down, instead of braking the airplane felt like it was accelerating.

Another report of the thrust levers fully forward?

Attempt at a go-around with insufficient runway and possibly damage?

[aterpster]

Airbus a321:
you can do an autoland on any airport with an operational ils

Not a great idea on those off-set ILSes.

[Smilin_Ed]

The AP is there for a reason to take the workload off the pilot so he can concentrate on things like situational awareness etc.

There is nothing like hand flying to promote situational awareness. It's letting "George" fly it that can actually cause loss of awareness.

[de facto]

Smilin ed,
are you a jet pilot?what type?
Would you be so kind and enlighten us on how hand flying increases your situation awareness?:ooh:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Considering we hand flew the DC3's and DC6's and such aircraft in all kinds of weather landing at unprepared air strips in the Arctic for years with excellent results have newer technology airplanes been designed to be more difficult to hand fly?

If so then the opinion of some in aviation that today's generation of pilots are dumbed down airmanship wise could be accurate.

[pmat]

Here we go again! Was Pele greater than Maradona? Is LeBrone better than Jordan? DC3s and 6s flew in a different time. They were slower, flew lower, etc. True same environment, there was a human being in the cockpit and true they would have had less fatalities than they did if they had today's modern technology. Compare hand flying to the guy in the field who's looking for a team mate the pass the ball and the spectator watching the game to the pilot who is monitoring the autopilot. As a spectator you can almost always see who's open for a pass but as a player, with the 'opponents' closing in on you .....

[B-HKD]

Somebody mentioned a possible insufficient autobrake setting on landing.

Many guys seem unaware of this(RTFM), but you can up select and down select any autobrake setting on (737/47/57/67/77) during landing . So if you land with 2 and it isn't enough, just change it to 3, 4 or MAX.

Cathay jocks did it all the time at Kai Tak and it worked like a charm.

[de facto]

Chuck,
i also flew the usual turboprop( metroliner,be1900)single pilot, no autopilot thingy in what you guys call the tornado halley...
I did my share for about 4 years..
Flying a jet is a different ball game.
Using the autopilot does increase your situation awareness by allowing you to use your few brain cells for other activities such as making sure your lnav routing wont take you into a mountain...
Obviously i find a 737 quite enjoyable to hand fly from fl 280 with all automatics off and fds off but only when im not tired and weather/ traffic is good.
Making a point handflying in bad weather or saying that hand flying increases you situational awareness is nonsense.
Would flying without an F/o also increase your situation awareness??

BHKD,

yes on 737 you can change the autobrake setting before reaching 60 kts.
I would not recommend to reselect a lower setting though and espevially not switching it off as it has lead to unwanted rto braking during landing.i am waiting for boeing guys to let me know if they fixed this problem by now..

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Here we go again! Was Pele greater than Maradona? Is LeBrone better than Jordan? DC3s and 6s flew in a different time.

I apologize for having been born before technology took over thinking and pilot flying skills pmat.

However I did get a bit of insight into the Nintendo cockpit before I retired a few years ago and my comments were made based on having flown during both eras.

Fifty seven years of flying accident free should give me some liberty in commenting? :ok:

[de facto]

Chuck,

im sorry to hear that in your 53 years of accident free , you believe as you wrote that today's pilots have no airmanship,no skills and no brain(no thinking as you mentioned).
Unfortunately the odds of a b737 crash are higher than of a dc6...and those single pilot cargo guys crashing unfortunately dont make CNN news..

Keep some faith:ok:

[jmmilner]

The current thread creep towards an automatics vs. hand-fly pissing contest seems to be heading towards the false black/white dichotomy that dominates political "discussions". I firmly believe that both the automatics and hand-flying are critical to modern flight operations. The real issue is how and when to maintain the hand-flying skills that can be instantly required when the automatics leave the building. Given that the automatics seem to have no restrictions on when they may declare "your aircraft", I expect any commercial pilot to be able to instantly assume control with full situational awareness at any point in the flight. If pilots don't hand-fly during some normal operations, how do you get the practice to keep the reflexes and muscle memory sharp? Is a periodic sim check really sufficient? Statistics indicate that most fatal accidents happen during takeoff and landing. Therefore to my mind these critical phases are precisely where I'd most expect hand-flying skills to be required and therefore practiced. Is there any data suggesting that hand-flying for practice by line crews (I'm not talking TK 1951) is more dangerous that maximal use of automatics offset against accidents where revision to hand-flying was a contributing factor? Does any carrier have a MEL so restrictive that their pilots will never be expected to fly without full automatics available at departure?

I'm just a poor (ex-)SLF who reads this forum to understand what goes on in the pointed end of what was my favorite form of transport before the economic crashes of 2000/2001 and 2008 put me out to pasture. My contribution here is intended to provoke consideration of what I believe is in the best interests of current and future SLF.

[Smilin_Ed]

are you a jet pilot?what type?
Would you be so kind and enlighten us on how hand flying increases your situation awareness?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/icon25.gif

As my public profile states, I'm a retired military pilot. I flew over 17 types of military aircraft up to and including P-3s. Mostly I flew tactical jets. I am also a graduate of the Navy's Test Pilot School. (Class 39 if you want to check.)

As far as I am concerned, the autopilot is for relieving the tedium of flying straight and level for thousands of miles. Letting George do most of the flying, particularly maneuvering while IMC, degrades piloting skills. Nothing concentrates the mind on what you are doing like actually flying the airplane.

[crippen]

As a humble SLF still flying about 25000 mile a year,I KNOW the planes I fly on are not flown by supposition,conjecture,and idle gossip,like some of these posts.


Of this IAM REALLY GLAD.:D

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Chuck,

im sorry to hear that in your 53 years of accident free , you believe as you wrote that today's pilots have no airmanship,no skills and no brain(no thinking as you mentioned).

Let me explain it in a more simple context.

All airplanes in use today still have elevators, ailerons, rudders and throttles that are assessable to both pilots to control pitch, roll , yaw and velocity which when done properly will make the airplane go where you want it to under the control of the pilot / 's.

If and when pilots come to rely on the automatics to fly the airplanes why are pilots needed?

Maybe my use of words were incorrect but if airplane handling skills are being deferred to auto pilots how can today's pilots remain sharp hand flying skills wise?

Maybe what is needed is smarter airplanes that can do things like decide " WHEN " to go around without any input from the pilots?

[White Knight]

test your self white knight (and others)...Next landing see if you can put her down right on the spot you have preselected. or certainly within 200 feet of that spot.

And dear pilots, if you can't keep situational awareness on a dark stormy night while answering the radio, selecting altitudes and headings...oh MY!



Passed the test - thanks for the offer though:E:E

Did I mention 'situational awareness'? No - I think I was talking about managing the flight the way the airlines like us too, and of course the public who pay the salaries...

Try not to twist my words old boy.. :{

Funny that it's always the ones who can't fly who cast that accusation at others PTH:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[drive73]

You can drive a car with your feet, but that doesn't make it the smart thing to do. There is a time and place for hand flying and one for letting the ap take the workload down. Safety should be the number one thing to think about. They make ap for a reason, it's not because it's more dangerous. I still cringe doing an autoland because I spent so many years hand flying. This is my issue and I have to get over not trusting the automation.
I can assure you the accident rate is much lower now, than when all of us were hand flying every approach. When I fly passengers around I always think about how I would fly with my family on board. I wish all the superpilots who don't use automation would think about that instead of proving what super sticks they are. Go show them in a cub where the only person you kill or injure is yourself if you make a mistake, because after all, as humans we do make mistakes and we have just been lucky enouph to not make it when the stars lined up the wrong way. Don't think this kind of accident can't happen to all of us.

[Jumbo744]

very well said :D:D:D

[Flaperon777]

Any news on the redovery of the Cvr and/or the Dfdr. Heard from some of my colleagues that the Cvr was found intact and in good condition. Should'nt be too difficult to locate since its only brush and trees where the plane impacted.Rather than inaccessible ocean depths or mountain tops...
So the truth is out there now...

[protectthehornet]

smilin ed...I agree with your use of the autopilot...

white knight.

imagine having to take an escalator to your office and never taking the stairs...and one day you have to actually walk up the stairs...you won't be ''ready''.

so too with flying...if you don't practice, how can you stay good or get good?

certainly if your airline lets you take the plane up, loaded with sandbags, and lets you practice...then use all the autopilot you want to... I don't know too many airlines that do this.

bringing up what the passengers pay you for, or what your airline wants you to do...fine...show me in writing where it says: my airline wants me to lose my hand flying skills.

And does your airline allow you to dispatch with all autopilots inop? I've gone all day with no autopilot, or autothrottles (yes in jets...DC9/737) and I kept my situational awareness and ate a calzone all at the same time.

smilin ed...I'd like to fly with you

white knight...you would beat me a pacman...but I wouldn't fly with you.

[wisperingwillows]

Hi! All,

Been reading through all the posts here and found some measured, some bodering on hysteria and a lot completely unrelated to the issue at hand. I would like to add a few sane comments to all those flying about here.

Just to give you a background to my comments

1. I am a Line Captain; one of those low time ones to be precise.

2. Have flow with lots of expats and Indians as p2 and p1

3. Have operated to and landed Mangalore several times (will have to check my log for an excat figure but atleast 10 or more; a few times in rain) ...

Issue 1 Mangalore Airport

Comment 1. The Mangalore airport usually gives you a DME arc approach which is not particularly challenging but you can end up high if you're not on the ball (situational awareness) or the FMGS is not properly programmed (yes I know that's obvious)

Comment 2. The runway length is sufficient; though not comfortable given the drop at the end of the runway. Hence, one always tends to ensure a touch down at or before the 1000 ft aiming point marker.

Comment 3. There is nothing about Mangalore that requires only Captains to be allowed to land there. Other than Air India; I am not aware of any other airline with this rule.


Issue 2 Cause of crash

Comment 1. Yes I would like to wait for the report and not indulge in wild speculation; but I know that the report will take many many months / years. In the mean time I would like to learn whatever I can for my own improvement.

Comment 2. To be hot and high or float down the runway in Mangalore is a terrible idea. Every crew member operating out of Mangalore knows that or is told by his compatriots ....... Hence, I cannot comprehend that this particular crew would attempt to land half way down the runway....

Comment 3. Lastly, I do not know what the AI Express policy towards go arounds is... their policy towards hard landings has been stated earlier and I believe it is a short sighted and wrong policy.


Comment 4. The maintance in Air India (won't hazard a guess about AI Express) is terrible.... In my experience the engineers are brilliant at paper work but terrible at the actually fixing any problems.... They don't follow the most basic of procedures laid down in the MEL or AMM or TSM. And they often ask pilots to defer defect entries into the tech log.

Based on the above, I would like to hazard the following:

1. It is probable the approach was unstable (crew could have become high without realising)

2. It is possible they might have floated (given the AI Express policy on hard landings)...

3. It is probable that a system failure degraded the braking capability / controlability of the aircraft on touchdown...

4. A combination of the 3 above coupled with the fact that Mangalore has a steep drop at the end of the runway resulted in the tragedy.

I would welcome any comments to substantiate or debunk the above...


Issue 3. Expat Pilots

Fact 1. They are in India because there was a severe shortage of pilots in India and the growth of the industry was suffering.

Fact 2. They get paid more than Indians with equivalent experience. This leads to resentment.

Fact 3. Expats come to India because they dont have jobs that pay them anything similar in their home countries.

Fact 4. If expat pilots had to go though a Class I Indian Medical; atleast 60 % would be grounded. This also leads to resentment.

Fact 5. The following incidents in India had expat Captains (this is not a complete or precise list; just a guessimate please feel free to add or substract)

1. Air Deccan ATR bounced / hard landing at old bangalore airport. Aircraft beyond economical repair. (African Capt)

2. Jet Airways ATR at Indore. Runway overrun. Multiple injuries and Aircraft beyond economical repair.(Not sure of nationality but not Indian)

3. Jetlite 737 runway overrun in Mumbai. Runway 27 closed for 2 days (dont remember excatly)(South American)

4. Kingfisher ATR incident at Mumbai in 2009. (Not sure of nationality but not Indian)


Comment 1. The free movement of goods and labour is benifical to all concerned. (If Indians want to work in the Gulf and the US; then others can want to work in India). I support it; So yes I support expat pilots.

Comment 2. For all those expats (& I've seen a few on pprune) who keep cribbing about how terrible India is in general and how unsafe it etc etc... Please leave.. Nobody is forcing you to fly in India; you are here 'cause the money is good.

Comment 3. As a P2 I flew with expats from around the world and I believe I am a better pilot today because of it. I have learnt enormously from them and their experience. The majority of them have huge amounts of experience and they gave me the benifit of it.

I can see that difference when I compare notes with my collegues for different airlines.

Comment 4. However, there are also a set of Expats that fly in a manner beyond comprehension. Among them are

(a) no go around captains; who boast they have never gone around.

(b) do 360 turns on finals below 1500 ft. (specificly banned in India after the Patna crash)

(c) Never flare. (this is not made up) Expat captain with more than 15000 hrs; beat all records for hard landings.

That being said, I have seen plenty of Indian captains do the same.

What I am trying to say is that it is capability not nationality that is important. Certain Indian pilots do resent the expats and certain expats make it a pet hobby to crib about India.

Let's just get over it and get on with our jobs.

[cosmo kramer]

The mediocre, and above pilot, will benefit from regular raw data flying. They will learn (or refresh) how the aircraft should behave from feeling and seeing what's going on while manipulating the controls themselves. The feel-, see- co-ordination is invaluable in identifying when the autopilot does something is not supposed to do (such as raise the pitch to 10 degs during approach, e.g. Turkish amsterdam).

Hence regular raw data flying will increase the situational awareness when really needed - like when you flying with autopilot ON, navigating around CBs, being kept too high in a crappy ATC environment, with no radio discipline, and controllers that hardly speak english, changing frequencies every 5 nm. Monitoring the aircraft is much easier, when you can predict what the autopilot should do in the next 10, 20 or 30 seconds and intervene if it's not doing as expected.

However, it's true that there are so many below mediocre (that would be crappy i guess) pilots out there that it's probably true that it's most likely better with the policy to leave it all to the autopilot, preferably the landing as well. Welcome to the wonder full world of airline flying, sit back relax and enjoy your flight (while the automatics will make a CFIT because your pilots are unable to fly the aircraft).

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

A wee hello to 'button pusher' pilots.

Why do you have to learn to fly at all?

Why does your certifying authority insist on single pilot IR with YOU doing the flying, navigating and radio?

Why did your instructor teach you all that good stuff about flying?
remember? steep turns, looking out the window at the horizon, stalling, pfls, flapless landings etc etc?

The AP is great for flying while you read the paper or whatever but never let it get better than you.

Keep sharp and stay safe.

Never RELY on the AP.

[aterpster]

cosmo kramer:
The mediocre, and above pilot, will benefit from regular raw data flying. They will learn (or refresh) how the aircraft should behave from feeling and seeing what's going on while manipulating the controls themselves. The feel-, see- co-ordination is invaluable in identifying when the autopilot does something is not supposed to do (such as raise the pitch to 10 degs during approach, e.g. Turkish amsterdam).

Hence regular raw data flying will increase the situational awareness when really needed - like when you flying with autopilot ON, navigating around CBs, being kept too high in a crappy ATC environment, with no radio discipline, and controllers that hardly speak english, changing frequencies every 5 nm. Monitoring the aircraft is much easier, when you can predict what the autopilot should do in the next 10, 20 or 30 seconds and intervene if it's not doing as expected.

However, it's true that there are so many below mediocre (that would be crappy i guess) pilots out there that it's probably true that it's most likely better with the policy to leave it all to the autopilot, preferably the landing as well. Welcome to the wonder full world of airline flying, sit back relax and enjoy your flight (while the automatics will make a CFIT because your pilots are unable to fly the aircraft).

That says it all.

I transitioned from the 727 to the 767 in the early days of the 767. Needless to say, 727 pilots could hand fly quite well, or they wouldn't live to talk about it.

In those early days of the 767 our management pilots recommended flying an occasional leg in raw data and not using the auto-pilot on that leg in the terminal area.

Something has really been lost. Apparently, none of the three Turkish pilots had a clue about either attitude instrument flying or the primacy of indicated airspeed.

My initial captain check-out early in my career was on the DC-9-10. That would make a nice basic trainer for today's digital pilots.

[Murexway]

1. Something abnormal occurred.
2. Noboby knows what it was.

Why do folks always digress into the same old extraneous baloney such as ex-pat pilots, hand flying, etc. and then flame each other over such pointless discussions?

The name of this forum may include the word "Rumor", but it also includes the words "Professional Pilot", hint, hint :)

[ManaAdaSystem]

What does raw data flying have to do with this accident?

As far as I know, only New Delhi is approved for auto land (Cat 3). It's near suicide to try to auto land on any of the Cat 1 runways throughout India. Indian aviation is sub standard in nearly all regards, ATC, Nav Aids, Communication, Runways, procedures, you name it.

This one will be blamed on the white guy.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Is it true that Eddie Rickenbakker - when running Eastern Airlines - initially refused to buy the new-fangled auto-pilots, " you guys are pilots, you're paid to fly, so fly " and only relented when he realised that he could save money by flying more precise tracks and altitudes - money talked.

Personally, I found it harder to ensure that I had correctly programmed, and then monitored, an auto-coupled approach and auto-land, than to just disconnect and fly the thing - but then Bill Gates had yet to invent Flight Sim. - so beloved by the modern generation.

Horses for Courses, I guess.

[protectthehornet]

back to topic a bit

I just read that ATC ordered the pilot to OVERSHOOT and that the throttles were found forward.

now, I am use to the order : go around...or even : execute published missed approach...but not overshoot.

u guys tell me

[Diamond Bob]

The story on the timesonline web site seems confused to me....

The Serbian pilot of an Indian passenger jet that crashed on Saturday tried to abort his landing and take off again, before crying: “Overshoot, overshoot,” according to his final exchanges with air traffic control.
Zlatko Glusica, 55, was given clearance to land at Bajpe airport near Mangalore, southern India, but was suddenly ordered to abort, according to a transcript obtained by an Indian television station yesterday, as investigators confirmed that they had retrieved the cockpit voice recorder.
The throttle of the Boeing 737-800 was reported to have been found in the forward position, also suggesting that the pilot had tried to abort the landing and take off again from the tabletop runway surrounded by steep slopes. A team of 25 investigators retrieved one flight data recorder from the charred wreckage but were still searching for the main one and would need at least a fortnight to analyse the information, according to the Civil Aviation Ministry.


Pilot tried to pull out of landing just before India air crash - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article7134254.ece)

[Airbubba]

now, I am use to the order : go around...or even : execute published missed approach...but not overshoot.


Might be the semantics mismatch discussed earlier. In Britsh/expat/Indian aviation English, overshoot can mean a go around, but it can also mean what we would call a runway overrun.

And, the report of the overshoot call on the CVR could be over the radio, or within the cockpit. Often, an ATC transcript is released or leaked before the CVR transcript is available and the headline writers sometimes don't know the difference.

Much of the accident news coverage takes an official's sound bite, it it misquoted by a writer not familiar with aviation terms and 'experts' add their commentary. Sounds kinda like PPRune come to think of it. Just kidding, of course.:)

As discussed here and in the news, philosophies concerning touchdown point, use of automation and paperwork penalties for a missed approach are areas that may yield clues to causes of this mishap.

Should have some good CVR and FDR data to work with soon it looks like...

...

Here's a video clip that contradicts the Times' report of an ATC order to 'overshoot':

Air India crash in Mangalore: Data box found (http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_player.php?id=1230434)

Good reporters but obviously not totally familiar with the operational aspects of the landing, as would be expected.

[southernmtn]

Long ago before it was called "Go Around", it was called "Overshoot."

[Willie Everlearn]

There are a surprising number in this thread who seem to misunderstand the use of automation in modern aircraft. I base my comment soley on your comments regarding the use of automation, when and how you should use the appropriate level of automation and knowing when it is a good idea to hand fly.

If you presently fly one of these 3rd or 4th generation aircraft you would be well advised to adhere to some rather basic methods of operation.

Might I suggest you apply the following?
These Third and Fourth generation aircraft are meant (by the manufacturer) to be flown using the maximum benefit of the automation. Re-read your AFM. In case you missed it there, read your FCTM or FCOM.
We have gone from 5 man, to 4 man, to 3 man and now 2 man flight crew aeroplanes. Why convert that into a one man show??? And, yes. Why overload the PNF? Does this really sound safe or wise to you?

I'd also recommend that you become a maestro with the FCP and FMS to optimize that automation well before you try hand flying one of these aircraft from TOD to touchdown. When you can fly the entire profile with automation from cruise to autopilot disconnect on the roll out and disconnect the auto brake approaching taxy speed, then you are proficient enough to hand fly that generation of machine.
I wouldn't compare the DC3 or DC6 with any of these aircraft. They didn't fly at 8 nm a minute so the mental processing rates are extremely different. With the automation and navigation equipment in any DC3 or 4 or 6, it would be an unfair comparison.

The reason some of these accidents happened (don't listen to me, read the final reports for yourself) and the reasons for a sudden upward spike in accident rates in recent years, has been due to loss of control and stall. The probable causes vary from mixing autoflight and manual flight, flight mode confusion and inappropriate use of the automation.

We can all get to the point where our comfort level with the automation is sufficient to hand fly on a more regular basis. The experts at A and B will tell you (with a straight face) the pilot is a monitor. Something the human factors experts tell us that we humans aren't very good at.

Could these facts in combination also be a contributing factor in many of these accidents? Including Mangalore.

[4PW's]

This is like the Libyan thread. Pilot error there. He descended below minimums while lining up on a road. Manoeuvring got them in the end. Said it early on, but got ragged out and thought the hell with it. Deleted most of my posts. Why be a part of the conversation? But it's happened again, and another airplane burns. The trend is not a good one. This time it's hard to call, but I reckon the probable sequence was this:

1. Hot and high, for whatever reason
2. Carrying speed and/or height over the thresh
3. Touches down in a little, maybe 2500'
4. 50' high is another 1000', minimum
5. Non-grooved runway
6. Lotta water has fallen, maybe > 30mm in the hour
7. Water on the runway is > 2.6mm setting it up for..
8. Reverted rubber hydroplaning
9. Gets to his 9 times the square root of the tire psi speed
10. One tire stops spinning
11. Steam builds up under the tire
12. The rubber shreds and the tire blows
13. Big swing
14. Pilot knows this is not cool
15. Tries to execute a touch and go
16. Now they're here, on PPRuNe

You may call it a 2nd takeoff, but a missed approach or a go-around it was not. Semantics. But they tend to matter. Whatever. It's easy to be high, but if you're happy to carry, first do the maths. Fifty feet makes a difference. What would 200' high mean? It's scary: 3816' longer than where you should touch down, which might mean touching down 5300' in from the threshold. Not good. Very not good.

[4PW's]

Been into and out of India a bit.

Non-grooved rwy, heaps of rain....

Not a good combo.

The talk about automation is for another thread.

Has little to do with this event, I'd reckon.

[Willie Everlearn]

4PW

I agree with your synopsis. We might also add failing to arm Speed Brakes which wouldn't be the first time on a B737. You could also suggest the crew hit hard, bounced then tried to land 'smoothly' the second time instead of executing a balked or low energy go around. I can see a crew falling behind, rushing things a bit, and just when it should all come together they ended up crossing the fence high and hot and it all went out the window from there.

The automation comment is due to an earlier comment in this thread. I happen to be of the opinion automation DID play a role in this but we'll have to wait and see.

1. Hot and high, for whatever reason
They didn't maximize the Automation. VNAV, LNAV and VTK

2. Carrying speed and/or height over the thresh
Automation (including A/T) would have hit the crossing height at the proper height and speed.

3. Touches down in a little, maybe 2500'
Should have used A/P A&B, A/T

4. 50' high is another 1000', minimum
Agreed. But, by then it was too late to stop on what was left.

5. Non-grooved runway
Indian DGCA and Federal gov't guilty of not making this airport safer when they had the chance.

6. Lotta water has fallen, maybe > 30mm in the hour
Crew evaluation of Threat and Error management upon receipt of ATIS or WX from ATC.

7. Water on the runway is > 2.6mm setting it up for..
Threat and Error management again?

8. Reverted rubber hydroplaning
Threat and Error management. Crew should have touched down at the proper point at the correct speed with Auto Brake High and Speed Brakes armed.

9. Gets to his 9 times the square root of the tire psi speed
Had at least 45 minutes before the landing to look at that. Threat and Error management?

10. One tire stops spinning
I think they thumped it on and bounced. Possibly blowing a tire in the process.

11. Steam builds up under the tire
They tried to recover with a slight increase in power to soften the second touchdown and therefore increased their forward speed and touchdown point. I've had a right main tyre blow on landing as it rolled through a large puddle of water. You could be right.

12. The rubber shreds and the tire blows
Possibly a tyre blew from the initial thump onto the runway.

13. Big swing
Okay. That's likely.

14. Pilot knows this is not cool
That's for sure.

15. Tries to execute a touch and go
Yup. Below V2 for the go around with an early rotation.

16. Now they're here, on PPRuNe
Yes. Now they're here on PPRuNe


Willie :ok:
P.S. Your opinon DOES matter.

[TopTup]

At the risk of upsetting some egos here, it is not about how great you are or were. Also, it is not about nationality (although this will shatter the backbone of the many, many xenophobic attitudes in Indian Aviation).

From my direct experience as a TRE at AI (on the 777) we must look at the SYSTEM that is in place there:

1. Rampant corruption.
2. Non-existant training standards: some pilots were failed in the sim yet that paperwork was either doctored to reflect a pass, or, the TRE was called in the justify the fail and pressured to change it to a pass, or, the failed pilot was sent on a route check to DXB within days and passed by his "batch mate", or the said failed pilot bribes for the pass. (All FACTS from my direct experience).
3. Technical exam answers are all known and shared by sms or other means.
4. Ab initio pilots coming from C152 or C210 direct to RHS of B777 without the ground instruction or handling to appreciate what V1 is let alone fly straight and level on downwind for a raw data circuit and approach, let alone land from (raw data) a stable approach, and checked to line by the TRE.
5. All but non existent CRM (mainly) from senior Capts reveling in the archaic bastardry days of a former military existence.
6. FO's too scared, too poorly trained, too inexperienced to challenge a Capt.
7. Capt's too poorly trained to listen to an FO, too ignorant to the low standards they exist within and are promoted from.
8. AI recruitment department not doing their own due diligence on the (expat) pilots that are employed (flying experience and credentials) instead relying on unscrupulous agencies.
9. Sim assessments, line route checks, instrument renewals are more often than not filled out (pass) prior to even beginning the sim or push-back.
10, Sim instructors arriving for the sim over 1.5 hrs late, no briefing, no pre-planned sortie, and only perhaps a block of 2 hrs used form the paid for 4 hours at the 9W sim.
11. Incoherent paperwork that is more important than safety, than standards, than, well, logic.
12. Sim assessment paperwork fraudulently completed: indicating patterns flown, approaches safely completed, (multiple) failures satisfactorilly completed when none were actually performed at all let alone to the safe standard needed (and this includes the CRM component).

So, let's PLEASE stop looking at who is the best stick and rudder pilot, who is the best user of automation, who is the ace of all bases.... [U]Look at the SYSTEM and the airline ENVIRONMENT that allows and promotes despicably low standards and training standards far, far lower than what (we) are accustomed to in other airlines. For example; why only consider the pilot who cannot fly straight and level, or land a raw data approach with a 15 kt crosswind? We should be looking at, scutinising and criticising the training system he/she has come from to allow this, let alone that he/she is then released to line.

These pilots are passed / checked to line. They know no better and believe this is the norm for international or heavy jet aviation. So, when (foreigners) openly question this or expose such issues they are shouted down with great passion due an ill-gotten national pride in their airline (and we can all be guilty of that).

[U]Look at the entire AI / AIE system, training standards and culture.

[4PW's]

Good post, TopT.

Reality.

[Langkasuka]

Totally agree with Top Tup's post.

I had some strange experience training Jet Airways Indian pilots in the 90's, a few so so ones but many seemed to have gotten in through " connections ". There was a major disconnect between what the learn in basic flying school and what they did once they got into the airlines. They could quote the precisely the page number of the FCOM manual regarding an item of interest but could not grasp the application in daily flight operations despite repeated explanation and demonstration. Most have the attitude that airline training was like flight school training. I had a fellow TRE/TRI who was so exasperated that he always began his briefing with this " I am just a B737 type rating instructor, I am here to instruct you on the operations of the B737. I AM NOT A SCHOOL TEACHER, I AM ALSO NOT A FLIGHT SCHOOL INSTRUCTOR; the simulator training and line training schedules DO NOT ALLOW ME THE PRIVILEGE OF teaching you basic flying "

[de facto]

How long is the AI express Sim check for expats? I heard its about 20 mins...:eek:

Toptup,
Very good post,as a TRE there, how do you cope?Are you forced to pass below 'standard' pilots?:suspect:

[411A]

This is like the Libyan thread. Pilot error there. He descended below minimums while lining up on a road. Manoeuvring got them in the end. Said it early on, but got ragged out and thought the hell with it. Deleted most of my posts.

However, I for one, believe you are quite correct.
I've completed dozens of NDB approaches to 09 at TIP over the years, and....had several First Officers line up squarely on the road just to the south.
I gave 'em the guff, and they thought better of it, and went missed...yes, overshoot old British term, still used in south Asia.

Aircraft automation is here to stay, no doubt about it (and I fly the first of the type that offered true automation, the L1011) however, good basic flying skills are still definitely needed, otherwise....expect more dead bodies.

NB.
Been flying to India since 1975, bad ATC/runways/approach aids then...and not much better now, it seems.
India today says they are a developed country...might be so, however, sadly underdeveloped ATC/runways etc.
Par for the course for this region.
IE: more money to be made investing somewhere else...other than aviation and aviation infrastructure.

Expect little change.:}

[JetScreams]

Flight Of Accountability

There has been a lot of discussion in the media regarding foreign pilots (also known as “expat pilots”) in the aftermath of the tragic air accident at Mangalore. The Minister of Civil aviation, many bureaucrats, airline officials and even a few journalists have gone to great lengths to explain how experienced foreign pilots hired by Air India and private airlines are essential to the Indian aviation industry. A retired spokesperson of Air India, who has no business to speak on behalf of Air India anymore, has been repeatedly appearing on television to painstakingly explain how important foreign pilots are to the company. Clearly the air disaster at Mangalore with a foreign pilot at the controls has made a lot of powerful people worried .Very worried.
The point however is not whether foreigners should be allowed in Indian carriers or not. Some of them are highly experienced and respected professionals who have undoubtedly made a huge contribution to the Indian airline industry. This article is not about them. It is about a shady scheme on gargantuan proportions, backed by government policy and a well oiled system that feeds on unimaginable corruption, on a scale that would astonish every innocent fare paying air passenger.
Air India is a government run Public Sector Undertaking and thus, it is assumed that rules applicable to other government institutions meant to keep corruption under check would apply to it too. The Ministry of Defence, for example has strict rules debarring the involvement of private middlemen or brokers in facilitating defence contracts. Other ministries have strict guidelines on the recruitment of qualified personnel or consultants where a transparent tendering process has to be adhered to.
In the case of Air India and its subsidiary Air India Express, such rules do not seem to apply at all.
Some years ago, the ministry of civil aviation that ran erstwhile Air India and Indian Airlines, cooked up unrealistic passenger growth projections and placed massive aircraft orders for Air India and Indian Airlines. Private airlines only too eager to float shares to rake in public money and capitalise on the hype jumped in the bandwagon. Overnight, hundreds of vacancies for pilots were created.
Air India began hiring foreign pilots in 2003.Other reputed companies like Singapore Airlines and various Gulf Airlines such as Emirates, recruit foreign nationals too but with great transparency. Foreign pilots hired by them are a part of the regular workforce and are directly hired, without involving middlemen, on local terms. European airlines do not hire non EU nationals.
In Air India’s case, no global tenders were floated for foreign recruitment firms and no advertisements in newspapers announcing vacancies for foreign nationals appeared. Bureaucrats and officials in Air India, hand in glove with their counterparts and politicians in the Ministry of Civil Aviation, Ministry of Labour, Home Ministry, Ministry of External Affairs and other agencies hastily cleared the proposal to hire foreign nationals and the policy of recruiting foreign pilots was established. Politicians of opposition parties were roped in and a cosy arrangement was made.
To bypass opposition from its own employees and to circumvent elaborate transparent recruitment procedures and various laws, a defunct subsidiary, Air India Charters Ltd was revived and used as the vehicle to issue foreigners contracts. Hence the hundreds of foreign pilots in Air India and Air Express are routed through Air India Charters Ltd through recruitment firms and then using a legal loophole, deputed to Air India and Air India Express.
Private firms comprising middlemen and brokers, with the respectable title of “Aviation Consultants” were approached and many of these, such as Rishworth Aviation and scores of others appeared out of the wood work. Overnight, new consulting agencies sprang up, some in murky tax havens like the Isle of Man and Channel Islands. All suddenly began to offer “experienced” pilots from all parts of the world. Many of these foreign pilots had and continue to have no clear track record. Some claim to have thousands of hours of flying experience in countries as diverse as Russia and Rwanda. Some of the airlines and countries (such as Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia) that these pilots flew in do not even exist anymore. No background checks are carried out by either Air India or the Indian Government. Strangely the agency of middlemen, or “consultant” supplying the pilots, is entrusted with this task.
Lucrative contracts were tailor-made to lure foreign pilots in droves.
Decades of rules meant to harass Indian pilots such as stringent medical standards were waived off by the government for foreign pilots. Air India’s pilots who are Indian nationals, have to undergo a DGCA medical test known as a Class I medical examination and then are again subjected to an elaborate company medical test known as a Pre Employment Medical Examination (PEME).None of these apply to foreign nationals in India. For example, an Indian pilot may not be allowed fly an Indian passenger aircraft wearing a pacemaker but a foreigner most probably would because the medical standards in his country allow it. There have been cases where Indian pilots who are permanently medically grounded by Indian authorities get foreign citizenship and foreign licences and return to India to fly planes on “expat” terms. Atleast two such “foreign” pilots have served Air India on such a contract.
Infact foreign pilots flying Indian registered aircraft are not even required to have Indian flying licences! All they had to do is produce “proof “of experience and a foreign licence and the DGCA issues a “temporary authorisation”. Such “proof” of experience could be a fake certificate or a fake rubber stamp but nobody carries out a background check.
A foreign pilot is not legally answerable to the Indian DGCA since he does not have an Indian Licence. The DGCA can neither revoke nor suspend his flying licence. Technically, an Indian Co Pilot involved in a serious air accident may lose his flying licence and his job; whereas the pilot, if he is a foreigner can take the next flight home and start life on a clean slate!
To prevent the foreign pilots from coming under the ambit of direct taxes in India, the pilots are “officially” based in foreign countries such as Dubai and not given “local” terms of employment. Every month Air India pays the foreign recruitment agencies the salaries of these pilots along with a commission or “consultancy fees” to foreign bank accounts. This is turn trickles back to the various politicians and officials who patronise the system. Not surprisingly, a foreign pilot who recently approached Air India for a job recently was asked to route his application through a recruitment agency!
As a result ,hundreds of crores of income tax that would have normally gone to the Indian Income Tax Department through TDS had these pilots been based in India, is diverted to foreign bank accounts in foreign countries.
“Liaison officers” and “advisors”, meant to “facilitate” business interests, are regularly appointed by these foreign recruitment agencies to “liaise” with the various ministries and departments. Two of Air India’s senior most executives have retired in the past one year and have joined such firms as “liaison” officers. Another, a retired CMD, continues to show great personal interest in negotiating foreign pilots’ contracts on behalf of recruitment agencies.
Foreign pilots are provided more leave, sometimes upto ten days in a month – the justification being that they need to go home to be with their families. Indian pilots flying for Air India Express are made to go on postings for fifteen days at a stretch and given one day off at their home base. Ironically these Indian pilots spend three to four days every month with their families and the foreigners (who could be from neighbouring Nepal or Dubai) spend more than a week to ten days every month on holiday.
Foreigners also get paid a higher salary and are entitled to five star hotel accommodations even when not flying. As a result, hundreds of hotel rooms are booked by Air India at exorbitant rates – a percentage of which presumably flows back to some officials.
This murky system in Air India of the past seven years has quietly gone unnoticed. As long as flights took off on time and passengers reached their destinations nobody really cared. Unions cried themselves hoarse- only to be drowned in the din of the money power of powerful lobbies and an ill informed media often hesitant to upset a mega industry that generates lucrative advertisement revenue .
The air crash at Mangalore need not have necessarily been caused by an incompetent foreign pilot. This article is not meant to disrespect the majority of foreign pilots in India. But the larger issue of rampant corruption and greed must be addressed immediately. Little wonder that all the officials in the dishonest food chain are now working overtime to cover up the issue. Sadly the one hundred and fifty eight innocent people that have been killed cannot speak for themselves anymore.
Therefore we, the rest of the nation, must stand up in one voice to demand a CBI enquiry to unravel the mess. We cannot afford to wait for another air disaster to prove the politicians, bureaucrats and officials wrong.
Because the next time a shady foreign pilot from strange country with a dubious qualification or medical history crashes a plane, you and I could actually be on it.

[Boeing7xx]

Possibility of pilots getting distracted inside the cockpit exists too. Has happened in the past. You just get obsessed with the problem and then no one is flying the aircraft, you wake up when the ATC calls you in for the final or changes the runway. You realize its too late to get the stuff in, and you choose to go visual. 99% of the time, nothing happens you land (heavy, hot/high, etc. etc.), and talk about the problem on the tarmac, and go back to your next sector.

[Burger Thing]

I bet my bottom Dollar, that if the crew touched down well passed of the 1000ft marker, it was not because they were hot and high on the approach, but to grease it on in order to avoid a hard landing detection of the performance monitoring system (not sure how they call this system on a 737 in India).

Personally, instead of having a debate automation vs handflying, I would rather see a discussion weather these kind of crew performance monitors have made flying safer. Reason is, and that is why I bring this up: in certain airlines these monitoring systems are not really used to detect certain trends and therefore improve crew training, but rather to punish the crew involved, etc :yuk:

The result is, that crew feel more pressured. Not only it takes the fun of flying away, but could lead into scenarios where the crew prioritize the wrong things.

Personally I have met crews who in the past hardly -if ever- accepted a visual approach on a calm, beautiful day, because they were afraid that one of the monitored parameters during the approach was triggered (combined with a mandatory invitation for tea & biscuits with the CP the following day). And when the day arrived that there was no (especially precision) instrument approaches available, the crew was nervous as heck.

[starvingcfi]

Personally, instead of having a debate automation vs handflying....


the afriqiyah thread turned into that too :rolleyes:

[Plectron]

Absolutely perfect report TopTup and it ain't only in India boys and girls.

[Wannabe Flyer]

For a flight from DXB to IXE (4 hrs) what would be the expected fuel load?

As a % of "tank full" what would this be?

Is it a normal practice for flights to tank up cheap in the ME on such routes?

If this was the case how much more runway length would be required for a safe landing?

As posters have noted AI is lax on carry on luggage and weight. Assuming the argument that oversized at 10 kgs extra shoved into the hold at the gate and another 7 kg of duty free that would add up to about 10 kgs more per pax or about 1.5 tons more. How much more would this add?

[de facto]

Unfortunately,most cabin crews only notice over bulky bags in the cabin rather than checking/mentioning the overhead weight limitation...:ouch:
Some airlines have a max of liquor/pax, as too much liquor could become an Hazmat issue.:bored:

[ExSp33db1rd]

Waiting for the inbound aircraft in the Company office in New Delhi, Palam Airport early one foggy morning, the inbound Captain called on the Company radio, I took the call and he said that the ATIS was giving 200m. RVR. and he was holding at F/l 200 over the VOR, which was some 14 nm north of the field in those days - if I recall correctly - and it was all Cavok at that location, so what was the vis. on the field really like, as he had about 15 mins left before diverting to Bombay ( not Mumbai )

I replied that it really was very foggy but I didn't know what 200 m really looked like from my position, so would go over to the tower and find out. ( yes, one could ).

Reaching the tower a quasy-digital Indian design RVR meter was showing 200 m as broadcast, but as I looked it increased to 210, then 220 and eventually reached the legal limit - which I forget - but the controller said nothing. Eventually the RVR increased to be of no further consideration, the field became almost Cavok, as being experienced by the aircraft further North, but still the controller said nothing, so I tapped him on the shoulder and asked why he wasn't advising the holding aircraft to commence an approach ? " I cannot transmit an improvement in the visibility until it has been positively sustained for 10 minutes " he said.

I ran back to the office and advised the inbound Captain - a friend, whose voice I recognised - that the vis. was now well above minima - but they weren't going to tell him for 10 minutes, but if he requested a descent, by the time he got on to finals they would have ! A diversion saved.

Maybe the ATC controller was following the book, but my question later was - if the RVR was reducing below legal minima one dark and dirty night, would they not tell me until 10 minutes after I had crashed on the field ? :ugh:

[TacomaSailor]

Earlier posts in this thread (18, 22, 49) all state or imply that there was no precipitation and the runway was dry.

Raw WX data at 05:30 LC and 08:30 LC report zero precip and partly cloudy skies.

Several messages at airliner.net report dry runway

Yet - several speculators continue to postulate hydroplaning - am I missing something?

[starvingcfi]

'Yet - several speculators continue to postulate hydroplaning'


exactly :hmm:

[4PW's]

#26 22 May

Low vis. Drenched runway surface.

That's where I came in, promptly left and 10 pages appeared out of nowhere.

Wet, dry...I don't know.

Thought that was resolved already.

[4PW's]

But if you're a starving CFI, it might pay to review how an airliner can run off the end of a runway and kill pretty much everyone onboard. This you would do to ensure you don't repeat the exercise. Find out if the rwy was dry. I'm outa here. Like the last thread, already. But if it was dry, the situation is much, much worse. Yet very clear, again. Stuffed up the approach, ignored stabilized criteria, landed long and this is the result. Repeat action at your peril.

[Rigid Rotor]

Just a few points from an ex-military Chopper Driver from the Land of Heat and Dust-
- Even if the procedure for Mangalore is an arc-DME approach, with a possibility of starting high, (if) the aircraft was on an autopilot-coupled ILS approach (which I suppose is the norm), the aircraft would have arrived at the correct height on the threshold - or am I missing something?

@swish266 and others (“and a million uneducated, corrupt and inefficient people from Developing and Developed countries from further diminishing the importance of the job of professional pilot.”) - I believe you are deluding yourself that most Indian aviators are low-level morons tarnishing the image of a professional pilot. Agreed, you have seen the seamy side of civil aviation in India up-front and close and there is little doubt that the civil regulatory system here, is loose and corrupt at best. However, having served a tenure as Chief of Operations of an IAF base in the northeast, I have also witnessed some fine handling of emergencies and good airmanship by Indian civil pilots. Yes - having a loose and decrepit civil regulatory system is a terrible disadvantage and may have been a factor in the accident, but then let’s wait for the report of the investigation, shall we?

And before also you write off the investigating capabilities of the same million, uneducated corrupt b*ggers (!):ouch:, news has it that the NTSB will also aid in the investigations... so there, the whole truth is bound to come out .

@swish266 –Finally in all seriousness -having interacted and flown with military aviators world-wide in exercises, evaluations and airshows, I can confidently state that at least the Indian military pilots aren’t all that different in our skillsets.

So then, let’s get off our high horses and have some objectivity here, shall we?

[david1300]

@exspeedbird - you said: "..."I cannot transmit an improvement in the visibility until it has been positively sustained for 10 minutes " he said.

......
Maybe the ATC controller was following the book, but my question later was - if the RVR was reducing below legal minima one dark and dirty night, would they not tell me until 10 minutes after I had crashed on the field ?"

Don't you answer your own question? Note that the key words: "I cannot transmit an improvement in the visibility until it has been positively sustained for 10 minutes" he said."

[jimmygill]

quasy-digital Indian design

@ExSp33db1rd
I wonder what exactly is a 'quasy'[sic] digital design. I can only hazard a guess..
the RVR equipment that has to display a reading of ABCD m, may be having 4 dials, one for each digit, am I close enough?

[fireflybob]

I cannot transmit an improvement in the visibility until it has been positively sustained for 10 minutes " he said.


Why? Was this a local standing order? Surely not standard ICAO?

[starvingcfi]

'But if you're a starving CFI, it might pay to review how an airliner can run off the end of a runway and kill pretty much everyone onboard. This you would do to ensure you don't repeat the exercise. Find out if the rwy was dry. I'm outa here. Like the last thread, already. But if it was dry, the situation is much, much worse. Yet very clear, again. Stuffed up the approach, ignored stabilized criteria, landed long and this is the result. Repeat action at your peril.'


true...but i'm not. i understand these things. i was merely pointing out the fact that the speculation only creates confusion. some say wet, some say dry. everyone seems to know exactly what happened before the bodies are cold. :hmm:

[max nightstop]

"Maybe the ATC controller was following the book, but my question later was - if the RVR was reducing below legal minima one dark and dirty night, would they not tell me until 10 minutes after I had crashed on the field ?"

You won't crash on the field because the vis has dropped. However, you might crash on the field if you don't react correctly to the fact that the vis has dropped. All you have to do is carry out the correct missed aproach if you don't acquire the correct visual refrences at MDA/H. It is not rocket science, it's aviation...it's your job.

[ExSp33db1rd]

I agree with TopTup - it's the System, and the Culture.

David1300 Good point ! To be honest I can't accurately recall the precise words some 30+ years later, but the impression I formed, and am therefore left with, was that any change had to be proved to be sustained in the same direction before it was passed to an aircraft .

I would agree that one has to wait a little time to prove that a change in the reading was not transitory, and that the 'improvement' - in this case - was continuing in a positive direction, it would be confusing to be told that the RVR was 200 - 210 -215 - 205 - 220 - 200 etc. over a short space of time, but my point was that the sun was getting higher in the sky, the fog was clearing, the controller had a good view of the whole airfield,and terrain beyond, I was up there with them and could see how the visibility had rapidly improved, yet he insisted in sticking to the book in full knowledge that he had an inbound flight holding at altitude within minutes of having to divert to a distant airfield if he didn't at least advise them that the situation was improving and that the aircraft could shortly expect a descent clearance.

Occasionally one has to think outside the square - and of course justify that action At The Subsequent Court Of Inquiry !

And ....... I did - later - question to others what their procedure might be when the situation was degrading. I never found out.

Fireflybob Why ? no idea, probably a local requirement.

Jimmygill the numbers were shown by a series of what I would now describe as little red LED's, like nothing I had seen before, or since, it looked very 'local' !

One did occasionally despair ! Flying from Bangkok to Calcutta when one of the Indian / Pakistan wars broke out, we were adv. that our track would carry us over East Pakistan ( now Bangladesh ) and this was now forbidden, so turn left and proceed to a Lat. and Long. South of Calcutta and then intercept and fly inbound on the 180 radial of the Calcutta VOR.

Out with the sextant and 'found' the required position, then turned North and discovered that we couldn't pick up the Calcutta VOR. Yes, said ATC, we have turned off all Navaids and airport lights due enemy attack, but maintain the 180 radial of the VOR. You want us to maintain the 180 radial of the Calcutta VOR, which you have turned off ? Affirmative.

We called company who told us that the airport was in complete darkness, and confirmed that all navaids - including the ILS - were turned off, but they had been assured that when we were on finals we could have the runway lights for 30 secs. What was the current weather ? 800 ft. overcast in rain. Goodnight !

Back to ATC to request a diversion to Rangoon. OK, cleared via the 180 radial of the Calcutta VOR to the previous Lat / Long position. We're not receiving the VOR. Correct, it is turned off due enemy attack, maintain the 180 radial Southbound.

Monty Python couldn't have written the script, and Bill Gates wouldn't believe it, so it would never be part of a Flight Sim. scenario, still, I did get to see Rangoon - my one and only visit !

[4PW's]

Well sorry about the misunderstanding. Your handle and number of posts led me to think you were a starving chief flying instructor on light aircraft.

Knowing why these accidents occur isn't guess work. Not for those in the industry when their airline proffers information on unstabilized approaches to hopefully inculcate a revulsion for them by its pilots.

If training alone won't force pilots to realise the hazards, industry statistics for over-run's might. They are very telling. They're not massaged.

Over 95% of all over-run's began life as an unstabilized approach. Not all unstabilized approaches end up this way, true, but over 95% of over-run's began unstabilized. Sadly, some may get away with it once, twice, even more times than you'd care to count.

Hence the imperative of airline flight ops departments to insist people carry out missed approaches if not in the slot at the final gate lest a trend develop whereby 'he got away with it' and so can I.

I'm a bit perplexed by what you said on the Afriqiyah thread.

Half way down the runway and you're still coaxing the Libyan pilot to not force it on. This is odd, but I wasn't there. Would you care to expand on that, specifically the reasons why. I'm just left with what you wrote.

Not only would my ass-be-grass for doing that (where I've worked, and now work) but the risk of tailstrike grows alarmingly high when floating down a runway.

Over-run's, tailstrikes...these are very big issues.

This was an over-run. The reasons will be clear soon enough. For me, it already is. Wet or dry, he landed long. Argument over. And that's got naught to do with sounding off. It's got a lot to do with frustration, amazement, distress.

[deSitter]

You can see from zaccy's posted video that there is a big drop-off at the RWY 06 end as well, the approach end here - this city is right on the ocean and they build the airport on a precipitous ridge - go figure..

Here's a link (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Mangalore&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Mangalore,+Dakshina+Kannada,+Karnataka,+India&gl=us&ei=iTH6S8vFEsOBlAe87IjLCg&ved=0CCEQ8gEwAA&ll=12.956592,74.887576&spn=0.033416,0.055747&t=p&z=15) to a terrain map of the area around the airport. The gradations in altitude are set at 20m, so about 100 ft steep drop to the river valley below.

[Anotherpost75]

4PW's

You've just mentioned tail strikes. There's a rumour going around AI that AI Express has had a number of them in the first quarter of this year. If it's true then something is very rotten in the airline and, of course, being well and truly covered up.

[Sqwak7700]

but my point was that the sun was getting higher in the sky, the fog was clearing, the controller had a good view of the whole airfield,and terrain beyond, I was up there with them and could see how the visibility had rapidly improved, yet he insisted in sticking to the book in full knowledge that he had an inbound flight holding at altitude within minutes of having to divert to a distant airfield if he didn't at least advise them that the situation was improving and that the aircraft could shortly expect a descent clearance.

Sorry Speedbird but you were wrong and the controller was right. It is a legal thing, and if your friend was that tight on fuel he should have diverted. If you don't have enough fuel to make an approach at the destination, go missed and divert to the alternate - then you don't have enough fuel to make the approach. And that 10 minute policy is built in to the system to improve the quality of the weather information passed on to the crew. You were lucky in that your shortcut of that safety system didn't bite your friend in the ass.

It would be very risky to fly an approach to minimums without having an out. I would suspect that most companies have fuel policies that prevent you from doing such a thing. I would relate that situation as continuing to your destination and waving your alternate fuel. Most companies have strict guidelines that must be met before waving your alternate fuel requirements (some include the requirement of multiple runways and approaches, no known further delays, and WX well above precision minima).

By passing that information on to your friend you and him both took the risk on your shoulders that he would be landing after his approach. You lined up a couple of holes in the swiss cheese but you were lucky enough that everything else went alright instead of going pear-shaped.

I understand you were only trying to help, and maybe the WX was improving rapidly. But you must understand that aviation is a game of always having back-up plans - that is why we have achieved such a good safety record. Everything we do has backups, and if it doesn't, we are most likely squawking 7700 and including MAYDAY in our call-sign.

[HAWK21M]

Don't believe whatever you see/read in the media.....Let the Investigation get concluded.

[stealthone]

What was the name of the late copilot? The rumour has it that the ilfated aircraft was piloted by two captains. The expatriate captain was activated to replace a local first officer. Can somebody state the age, experience and rank of the other pilot involved. His name and particulars are omitted by the media.
Thanks.

[starvingcfi]

'Well sorry about the misunderstanding. Your handle and number of posts led me to think you were a starving chief flying instructor on light aircraft.

I'm a bit perplexed by what you said on the Afriqiyah thread.

Half way down the runway and you're still coaxing the Libyan pilot to not force it on. This is odd, but I wasn't there. Would you care to expand on that, specifically the reasons why. I'm just left with what you wrote.'


no problem. you're not the first. i've been using this name since i was a starving cfi in 2002. chose to keep the name rather than change it every time i move to new equipment...starving402pilot, starvinghawkercaptain, starvingchallengercaptain.

i delivered the aircraft to the libyans and stayed to fly with them for 2 months while they gained experience in type. the morning i touched down in tripoli was the last time i was allowed to touch the controls. they never once offered a leg (even though i was clearly bored sitting in the right seat) and i never asked.

in hindsight, continuing the landing was a poor decision on my part. had i been in the left seat, we would've gone around and tried again. in reality - had i been in the left seat, we would've been on speed in the first place.

anyway, we had flown several trips by this point and i was thoroughly unimpressed with their skill set. this must have been our first instrument approach to the east and i made sure he knew we needed to be slowed and configured prior to the final approach fix, or else we would never get down and be on speed. as we zoomed toward the final approach fix, he asked for flaps 10. i should have reiterated the fact that we needed to be slowed/configured, but i'm one to let people learn from their mistakes. we hit the FAF, started down, and began configuring on speed.

as we crossed the fence, we were well over ref. however with an 11,076 ft runway, a landing distance of less than 2500 ft (usually the case), and the speed bleeding off nicely...i elected not to push for a go around. he was very clearly considering pushing the nose down to force the plane on the ground before it was ready. my concern was wheelbarrowing. i'm not sure how a tail strike would be a valid concern at that point.

again, i should've told him to go around...or elected to go around for him. i didn't. lesson learned.

[Wannabe Flyer]

List of Crew members:

1. Capt Z Glusica, Commander
2. Mr H S Ahluwalia, First Officer
3. Ms Sujata Siddharth Survase, Crew
4. Mr Yugantar Rana, Crew
5. Mr Mohammad Ali, Crew
6. Ms Tejal Anil Kamulkar, Crew



H.S Ahluwalia Age 42 3750 hrs. Apparently was being upgraded to commander next month

[TopTup]

To answer a question put to me:

I resigned. I fought the management culture and attempts to coerce and force me to change a fail grade I gave a pilot who could not land the 777 sim flying on raw data with 15 kt crosswind. He crashed it, twice.

I gave the reasons for my resignation to my agency, the airline, the airline's safety / standards department, DGCA and later sent in a report to the FAA.

So what has changed? Nothing. What will change? Nothing. I'll bet that my reports and paperwork were or either are burnt, lost or at the bottom of one of the many rooms packed 6+ ft high, wrapped in pink ribbon. :ugh:

[shanx]

TopUp,

All that you have written about Air India (despicable standards, corruption, smoking in cockpit, pathetic culture, bribing to pass sim checks even after trainee crashing sim twice etc) must be sent to the media.

The travelling public must know what they are paying for.

Anyone in this forum with some good contacts with Indian media ? (Times Now, NDTV, Headlines Today, CNN-IBN etc ) ??

[Kockar]

Sure that it depends of weight (we don't have that info), winds (tail? - don't know that eather) type of tarmac, was it dry or wet, flaps, auto brakes... but after looking at this I am thinking a bit of "They could stop that plane even overshooted thr. by 2000feet - on dry" ?!? Still they had 6000ft + almost 200 ft off. Or they missed the touchdown point by 2000ft? As I saw on Google Earth, most of the landings are done from 1000 to 2000 ft from threshold, ok, different types of a/c. But... still....

flaps40
http://www.balcanbay.com/1/ScreenShot007.png

flaps30
http://www.balcanbay.com/1/ScreenShot008.png

Sorry, If I am totaly wrong, I'm so unfamiliar with this a/c. :ok:

[TopTup]

Shanx (and others),

Do you not think the media knows this? The management at AI knows this, the TRI / TRE's know this, the pilots themselves know this? Do you not think the TRE who arrives at the sim 1.5 hrs late knows he is? That he knows he is doing the wrong thing when he fraudulently completed DGCA and AI report? That the "Training and Safety Dept" calling in pilots to change their assessments and reviews KNOW they are doing the wrong thing?

They actively CHOOSE to do nothing! The regulatory authorities KNOW THIS!!! Go to the SE Asia Forum and see the utter resentment I and others have received by posting such issues previously. There are calls of racism, of "if you don't like [Incredible] India then get out!.....We don't need you damn foreigners when we have 4000 pilots with CPL's [175-200 hrs TT] qualified to do your jobs!" And, there is great pressure to bring this about.

I am so unbelievably sorry to be of the opinion that this will happen again, and again throughout the world so long as standards and safety are compromised for personal gain, incompetence and share market advances.

Hey, lets not just look at AI. What of the Dash 8 accident into Buffalo recently? Have the FDTL's, training or standards been improved there? We all read the reports, the conditions, the experience, the fatigue, etc, all attributing to that accident! Oh the media attention! The outrage! The heated conversations amongst pilots! Yesterday's news. Michael Moore's documentary.....Has anything changed?

So, tell the media, the DGCA, the FAA what? Something they know and refuse to acknowledge or prefer to ignore? Look at the media frenzy already: blame the expat. Look at "us professional" pilots on this forum: "I can hand fly and aircraft from..... Well you're wrong because automation is there for a reason...... Well if I was there I would have....."

NOTHING WILL CHANGE. And that is the saddest part of this entire accident.

No one will willfully open the can of worms and expose what goes on there. AI will have to be opened and investigated thoroughly. It won't happen. Raw, utter corruption and (criminal) negligence.

[Graybeard]

This one has a lot of similarities to the AA crash in Jamaica last year. They were even BAe HUD equipped on that one. Does AI have HUD on theirs?

GB

[fireflybob]

TopUp et al, never mind reporting the media etc but surely the insurance companies would be interested in the information you have?

Would any insurance company be happy to provide cover give these alleged huge lapses in safety?

[PT6A]

Boeing did an audit of Air India and found many many failings... these reports are also available... if anyone finds someone who would care to look!

[ManaAdaSystem]

Sqawk7700,

Have you ever been to India? Where else can you be on final and be told by ATC to go around due "Visibility below minima"? You tell him you have the whole airport and runway in sight, but "Negative, visibility below minima, Go around! I'm not talking about shallow fog here.

Or you sit at the gate, "negative start up, RVR 300 meters". But we can see from the gate and almost to the end of the runway, so it's at least 2000 meters? "Negative, RVR 300 meters, negative start up!"

It's not about Swiss cheeses, it's about plain stupidity! And it's about procedures you'll only find in India.

Tks SPD33bd, I had a good laugh when I read you Calcutta story.

[White Knight]

Quite right MAS - sitting in Calcutta waiting to push back - whole airfield and the distant threshold of 19R plainly visible. 'STANDBY, RVR 200M'... Idiots:}

[White Knight]

And does your airline allow you to dispatch with all autopilots inop? I've gone all day with no autopilot, or autothrottles (yes in jets...DC9/737) and I kept my situational awareness and ate a calzone all at the same time.


Clever boy:rolleyes::rolleyes: Your attitude is real cowboy stuff:ugh: I did my cowboy stuff when I was younger and more stupid (first 4000 hours without AP thankyou) - seems you haven't grown out of that kind of thing..

Besides - AP not available by MEL is one thing, just handflying (from TOD too which I think is totally POINTLESS) for the sake of it is another.. Handflying the approach is fine if rested, good F/O, quiet ATC etc but more often than not it's very busy at my homebase and at the end of a 12 hour duty (16 hours if on ULR) too - handflying is not the way to go...

Sorry to digress folks but I can't understand this guy's operation at all......

[ManaAdaSystem]

JetScreams, care to give a source for your cut and paste?

Flight Of Accountability

There has been a lot of discussion in the media regarding foreign pilots (also known as “expat pilots”) in the aftermath of the tragic air accident at Mangalore. The Minister of Civil aviation, many bureaucrats, airline officials and even a few journalists have gone to great lengths to explain how experienced foreign pilots hired by Air India and private airlines are essential to the Indian aviation industry. A retired spokesperson of Air India, who has no business to speak on behalf of Air India anymore, has been repeatedly appearing on television to painstakingly explain how important foreign pilots are to the company. Clearly the air disaster at Mangalore with a foreign pilot at the controls has made a lot of powerful people worried .Very worried.

The point however is not whether foreigners should be allowed in Indian carriers or not. Some of them are highly experienced and respected professionals who have undoubtedly made a huge contribution to the Indian airline industry. This article is not about them. It is about a shady scheme on gargantuan proportions, backed by government policy and a well oiled system that feeds on unimaginable corruption, on a scale that would astonish every innocent fare paying air passenger.

Air India is a government run Public Sector Undertaking and thus, it is assumed that rules applicable to other government institutions meant to keep corruption under check would apply to it too. The Ministry of Defence, for example has strict rules debarring the involvement of private middlemen or brokers in facilitating defence contracts. Other ministries have strict guidelines on the recruitment of qualified personnel or consultants where a transparent tendering process has to be adhered to.

In the case of Air India and its subsidiary Air India Express, such rules do not seem to apply at all.Some years ago, the ministry of civil aviation that ran erstwhile Air India and Indian Airlines, cooked up unrealistic passenger growth projections and placed massive aircraft orders for Air India and Indian Airlines. Private airlines only too eager to float shares to rake in public money and capitalise on the hype jumped in the bandwagon. Overnight, hundreds of vacancies for pilots were created.

Air India began hiring foreign pilots in 2003.Other reputed companies like Singapore Airlines and various Gulf Airlines such as Emirates, recruit foreign nationals too but with great transparency. Foreign pilots hired by them are a part of the regular workforce and are directly hired, without involving middlemen, on local terms. European airlines do not hire non EU nationals.

In Air India’s case, no global tenders were floated for foreign recruitment firms and no advertisements in newspapers announcing vacancies for foreign nationals appeared. Bureaucrats and officials in Air India, hand in glove with their counterparts and politicians in the Ministry of Civil Aviation, Ministry of Labour, Home Ministry, Ministry of External Affairs and other agencies hastily cleared the proposal to hire foreign nationals and the policy of recruiting foreign pilots was established. Politicians of opposition parties were roped in and a cosy arrangement was made.

To bypass opposition from its own employees and to circumvent elaborate transparent recruitment procedures and various laws, a defunct subsidiary, Air India Charters Ltd was revived and used as the vehicle to issue foreigners contracts. Hence the hundreds of foreign pilots in Air India and Air Express are routed through Air India Charters Ltd through recruitment firms and then using a legal loophole, deputed to Air India and Air India Express.

Private firms comprising middlemen and brokers, with the respectable title of “Aviation Consultants” were approached and many of these, such as Rishworth Aviation, Parc Aviation and scores of others appeared out of the wood work. Overnight, new consulting agencies sprang up, some in murky tax havens like the Isle of Man and Channel Islands.

All suddenly began to offer “experienced” pilots from all parts of the world. Many of these foreign pilots had and continue to have no clear track record. Some claim to have thousands of hours of flying experience in countries as diverse as Russia and Rwanda. Some of the airlines and countries (such as Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia) that these pilots flew in do not even exist anymore. No background checks are carried out by either Air India or the Indian Government. Strangely the agency of middlemen, or “consultant” supplying the pilots, is entrusted with this task.

Lucrative contracts were tailor-made to lure foreign pilots in droves. Decades of rules meant to harass Indian pilots such as stringent medical standards were waived off by the government for foreign pilots. Air India’s pilots who are Indian nationals, have to undergo a DGCA medical test known as a Class I medical examination and then are again subjected to an elaborate company medical test known as a Pre Employment Medical Examination (PEME).None of these apply to foreign nationals in India. For example, an Indian pilot may not be allowed fly an Indian passenger aircraft wearing a pacemaker but a foreigner most probably would because the medical standards in his country allow it.

There have been cases where Indian pilots who are permanently medically grounded by Indian authorities get foreign citizenship and foreign licences and return to India to fly planes on “expat” terms. Atleast two such “foreign” pilots have served Air India on such a contract. Infact foreign pilots flying Indian registered aircraft are not even required to have Indian flying licences! All they had to do is produce “proof “of experience and a foreign licence and the DGCA issues a “temporary authorisation”. Such “proof” of experience could be a fake certificate or a fake rubber stamp but nobody carries out a background check.

A foreign pilot is not legally answerable to the Indian DGCA since he does not have an Indian Licence. The DGCA can neither revoke nor suspend his flying licence. Technically, an Indian Co Pilot involved in a serious air accident may lose his flying licence and his job; whereas the pilot, if he is a foreigner can take the next flight home and start life on a clean slate!

To prevent the foreign pilots from coming under the ambit of direct taxes in India, the pilots are “officially” based in foreign countries such as Dubai and not given “local” terms of employment. Every month Air India pays the foreign recruitment agencies the salaries of these pilots along with a commission or “consultancy fees” to foreign bank accounts. This is turn trickles back to the various politicians and officials who patronise the system. Not surprisingly, a foreign pilot who recently approached Air India for a job recently was asked to route his application through a recruitment agency!

As a result ,hundreds of crores of income tax that would have normally gone to the Indian Income Tax Department through TDS had these pilots been based in India, is diverted to foreign bank accounts in foreign countries.

Liaison officers” and “advisors”, meant to “facilitate” business interests, are regularly appointed by these foreign recruitment agencies to “liaise” with the various ministries and departments. Two of Air India’s senior most executives have retired in the past one year and have joined such firms as “liaison” officers. Another, a retired CMD, continues to show great personal interest in negotiating foreign pilots’ contracts on behalf of recruitment agencies.

Foreign pilots are provided more leave, sometimes upto ten days in a month – the justification being that they need to go home to be with their families. Indian pilots flying for Air India Express are made to go on postings for fifteen days at a stretch and given one day off at their home base. Ironically these Indian pilots spend three to four days every month with their families and the foreigners (who could be from neighbouring Nepal or Dubai) spend more than a week to ten days every month on holiday.

Foreigners also get paid a higher salary and are entitled to five star hotel accommodations even when not flying. As a result, hundreds of hotel rooms are booked by Air India at exorbitant rates – a percentage of which presumably flows back to some officials.

This murky system in Air India of the past seven years has quietly gone unnoticed. As long as flights took off on time and passengers reached their destinations nobody really cared. Unions cried themselves hoarse- only to be drowned in the din of the money power of powerful lobbies and an ill informed media often hesitant to upset a mega industry that generates lucrative advertisement revenue .

The air crash at Mangalore need not have necessarily been caused by an incompetent foreign pilot. This article is not meant to disrespect the majority of foreign pilots in India. But the larger issue of rampant corruption and greed must be addressed immediately. Little wonder that all the officials in the dishonest food chain are now working overtime to cover up the issue. Sadly the one hundred and fifty eight innocent people that have been killed cannot speak for themselves anymore.

Therefore we, the rest of the nation, must stand up in one voice to demand a CBI enquiry to unravel the mess. We cannot afford to wait for another air disaster to prove the politicians, bureaucrats and officials wrong. Because the next time a shady foreign pilot from strange country with a dubious qualification or medical history crashes a plane, you and I could actually be on it.

It would not be our Indian pilot friends who cooked up this stew of half truths, lies, envy, rubbish and blame, would it?

[Rigid Rotor]

ManaAdaSystem – you are quite right about some terrible controlling by Indian civil ATC controllers – I remember a recent air-test in a helicopter at a small civil airfield – we were climbing to FL 100 and were given a climb radial exactly reciprocal to the Instrument runway! Had to explain a few times on the R/T before the controller agreed to change the sector of ops. The controller’s situational awareness appeared pretty limited and was saturated with just 2-3 arrivals and departures (evident from the somewhat disjointed R/T calls and erratic controlling). There were other occasions during my interactions as Chief of Operations of an IAF base in the northeast – the operating IAF squadrons found some controllers were downright thick-headed, stubborn and impractical. However, on the plus side there were a few chaps who were willing, enthusiastic and proved themselves quite capable of handling fighter aircraft during their periodic deployment at the airfield – not a mean feat that especially as we had the older Type-69 Mig-21’s with terrifying approach speeds and steep approach angles! Personally, I would put it down to poor levels of training, motivation and lack of leadership.

On the other hand, you both seem to be quite terribly sure of yourselves, are'nt you, ManaAdaSystem & White Knight ?? Well, I have been witness to the almost comical sight of the rolling nose-wheel of an ATR overtaking the aircraft after it had broken away post a PIO induced heavy landing at HAL airport, Bangalore. :}
And YES – the pilot was an ‘expat’.Check out the civil aviation accidents in India in past few years – unfortunately most of them involve expats.

However, the main point about aircrash investigations is objectivity and finding the exact reasons for the accident. So let’s just step back a bit from our pre-conceived ideas and prejudices and wait for the exact reasons to emerge shall we? Anything else and we won’t be the professionals that we claim to be.

[White Knight]

Well, I have been witness to the almost comical sight of the rolling nose-wheel of an ATR overtaking the aircraft after it had broken away post a PIO induced heavy landing at HAL airport, Bangalore.

Wow RigidRotor - gotta screw up an ATR landing bad to do that:E I always thought it was a pleasurable and easy aeroplane to fly:ok::ok: Both 42 and 72..

[protectthehornet]

If hand flying from TOD to touchdown is Cowboy stuff, then call me TEX and hand me my spurs.

As far as busy airports, I can't think of too many busier than New York, Chicago, Washington DC, Atlanta, and Boston.

That's my home turf.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

You take the pilot flying and pilot not flying concept as license to actually fly the thing do you Protectthehornet? :) :ok:

[100BMEP]

You take the pilot flying and pilot not flying concept as license to actually fly the thing do you Protectthehornet?

Chuck...I agree with you!
I too flew the DC-4's, DC-6's, and Connies. As I recall that was before Auto Land was invented! And yes I too became a "Child of the Magneta Line" in our current generation aircraft. Guess what? One can hand fly those as well!
Sadly I fear needed skills are never being developed so that one can pull them out of the 'back pocket' if (and when) needed.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

100BMEP the real truth is most pilots are not only capable of hand flying any aircraft they enjoy it.

I understand the " magenta line " concept also but it is only another aid just like using the B.F.O. position on an ADF or doing a star shot with the Astro compass.

I guess I was just to old to be a child of the magenta line. :ok:

I would like to see them bring back the Radio Range.....something that does not require hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of magic boxes to use. :}:}

True happiness was finding the cone of silence. :ok:

[Smilin_Ed]

I would like to see them bring back the Radio Range.....something that does not require hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of magic boxes to use.

How about MDF? That did require some equipment but it sure was fun!:}

Nevertheless, without some basic stick and throttle skills, pilots can find themselves in real trouble. Think about Buffalo, Amsterdam, Tripoli, and now Mangalore. All the final reports are not out but all of these seem to be about a lack of basic flying ability.

[Starter Crew]

VOR, short for VHF omnidirectional radio range

[Neupielot]

Embrace technology. :8

[Chuck Ellsworth]

But never allow technology to replace an understanding of physics, aerodynamics and how to physically fly any aircraft you are in command of. :ok:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I am going to exit this thread because I am posting to much here.

But I would like to make one more comment and that is I find it very difficult to try and get through to those who are limited by having only been exposed to modern technology and the resulting SOP's in place today that are designed to make flying an exercise that is as safe as SOP's can make flying.

Where it sometimes comes off the rails is when something that is not covered in SOP's happens.

That is where experience comes into play, like in that loss of controls in the Jet in Sioux City Iowa some years ago.

How would the children of the magenta line have fared in that airplane?

[Machaca]

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[rspilot]

I believe that machaca answered Chuck's question about the Sioux City accident.

[ExSp33db1rd]

I believe that machaca answered Chuck's question about the Sioux City accident.
Absolutely.

Embrace technology.


But understand it, too. Does "Neupielot" mean 'New Pilot' ?

if so, says it all.

" Those who ignore History are doomed to repeat it " ( or something like that )

[ExSp33db1rd]

You won't crash on the field because the vis has dropped....

Totally agree, but ...... I may be tempted to start an approach if I'm not told that the vis. / RVR has dropped, and when reaching MDA commence an overshoot ( Go Around ! ) and ....... then find that we have another problem, or issue, that creates a scenario that results in an accident, whereas if I had never even considered making an approach - having been told that the airfield was below minima - I might well be at a different height, in another place, where the second problem would not be a problem, or could more easily be dealt with.

One could hypothesise for ever, but a crew can only make a decision based on the facts presented to them, and if they are told that the RVR is above minima, why wouldn't they start an approach - all else being equal - why give pilots false info ?

No pilot deliberately flies into the ground, or mountain, he flies into the ground because he is convinced it isn't there, from clues presented to him from a variety of sources, some mechanical, some audio, some electronic, some visual, some from other humans, and if those clues are false he makes the wrong decision - and is usually not around to explain, so the easy answer for those really at fault ( maybe ) is to blame him / her.

[shanx]

Mangalore air tragedy: Black box found- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos (http://www.timesnow.tv/Mangalore-air-tragedy-Black-box-recovered/articleshow/4345909.cms)

[il maestro]

Somebody mentioned a possible insufficient autobrake setting on landing.

Many guys seem unaware of this(RTFM), but you can up select and down select any autobrake setting on (737/47/57/67/77) during landing . So if you land with 2 and it isn't enough, just change it to 3, 4 or MAX.

Are you a pilot? I am, and flying a B777... in case of insufficient autobrake setting, I just push with all my force on the brakes... more rapid and more effective.

[bia botal]

Maybe the ATC controller was following the book, but my question later was - if the RVR was reducing below legal minima one dark and dirty night, would they not tell me until 10 minutes after I had crashed on the field ?

One would hope you went around at the minimums:ugh:

[shanx]

Air India crew, engineers on flash strike; 10 flights cancelled - India - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Air-India-crew-engineers-on-flash-strike-10-flights-cancelled-/articleshow/5972381.cms)

Although the reason stated for the "flash strike" is delayed salary payments, another news article has reported that the strike is because of a gag order on AI employees ...
.
.

Gag order timing wrong, say Air India staff - India - ibnlive (http://ibnlive.in.com/news/gag-order-timing-wrong-say-air-india-staff/116165-3.html?from=rhs)

[jpsingh]

[This thread is becoming vague...Professional Pilots Rumour Network.. ? The essence of an accident inquiry,the what,how and why of the accident investigation has taken a back seat while there are arguements(yes thats the correct word) since discussion is between informed,educated and informed individuals.
We are talking about low standards of Aviation in India/ terrible infrastructure/corruption at all levels.Well arent these all known to people who come to work in India.
Also in this age of Globalisation, the word expat has achieved a different meaning altogether. Earlier, expat only meant someone from the developed world (Europe/UK/US/Canada/Australia etc..etc) but today an expat also includes an Indian flying in Emirates, a Pakistani in Singapore and a Korean in Oman. The definition has changed. Anyone who aspires to a better living standard or wants an exposure to living elsewhere...as long he /she can meet the required standards and satify the regulatory authorities,why must that individual be denied the right to work in that country.
On a personal level I can say that hand flying is great as long as you dont make it a personal commitment and an ego issue.Automation is great and has been paid for and definitely increases SITUATIONAL AWARENESS and contributes to Flight Safety.
It has often been said that the pilot community is its own biggest enemy....did I hear that right. On a lighter vein..Also the pilots of today have become gynocologists..they have made a profession out of what was essentially meant to be an act of fun!!!...Cheers and happy landings !!!:O

[protectthehornet]

hand flying must be a personal commitment...as certainly as an athelete makes his daily workout a commitment.

[Smilin_Ed]

hand flying must be a personal commitment...as certainly as an athelete makes his daily workout a commitment.

Amen, brother.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

These discussions seem to show a mindset among some pilots that would appear to try and justify minimum level competence in far to many airlines to the point many pilots will go out of their way to justify almost any incident / accident that points to a lack of skills and or poor decision making in two crew airplanes.

There is an ongoing very toxic discussion on a Canadian forum that is disturbing to see in a group of pilots who are flying the public around for a major airline, the depth of denial by some of these pilots is as I said, disturbing to say the least.

Maybe the time has come for me to quit reading this stuff now that I am retired?

[Willie Everlearn]

Chuck, you make some VERY valid points. So, I wouldn't despair if I were you.

May I comment on your earlier Sioux City question?

If today's pilot was trained on that aircraft and showed up to work with the same CRM skill set as United Airlines of that day showed up with, AND a qualified training Captain was seated in a now non-existent First Class section, then my guess is that they'd possibly do just as well.
Here's the caveat. (Please, I'm assuming a non third :mad: crew)

Today?
In a 3rd or 4th generation aircraft, you aren't likely to lose the Hydraulic system fluid because of check valves in the lines, so we're back to square one. This accident practically mandated these check valves so it isn't likely to happen.

I agree with and understand your remarks. We need to instill in this generation of pilot the necessity of being able to accurately hand fly the machine. Unfortunately, you have to be a master of the automation before you can masterfully use a "voice activated" AFCS. To degenerate this generation of aircraft to attitude, airspeed and ball is probably unwarranted and a waste of time. The DC3 and DC4 era of much higher failure rates is ancient history and therefore shouldn't dictate the need for these sharpened skills, but with a valid flight director and hand flown obedience, these skills can certainly come in handy.

As a footnote to the United DC-10 at Sioux City, it was a four man flight deck on a three man aeroplane with beyond the normal CRM, MCC contributions. Hand flying the S.o.B. was a serious challenge and let's be honest, there wasn't much hand flying going on. There was however, some serious 'creative' manual flying going on and if they hadn't chopped the thrust on landing it probably would have made a greaser instead of a cartwheel. Capt. Haines presentation is awesome.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Mangalore air tragedy: Black box found- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos (http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesnow.tv%2FMangalore-air-tragedy-Black-box-recovered%2Farticleshow%2F4345909.cms&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Frumours-news%2F415912-air-india-express-b738-crash-12.html)Black boxes found ! ?
Great .. so if luck .. some will be know about this accident in a month ..

[ExSp33db1rd]

bia botal


One would hope you went around at the minimums


but of course - already addressed that in #233 - I was trying to emphasise a point, that flying doesn't always work out the way it is taught at Aviation College ( Shock ! Horror ! :eek: ) and one has always to be prepared to improvise and 'interpret' the rules to save the situation. SOP's can't be written to cover every eventuality.

I started this, sorry, can we now close it !!


Maybe the time has come for me to quit reading this stuff now that I am retired?


It's Beer o'clock - Goodnight.:ok:

[lomapaseo]

There is an ongoing very toxic discussion on a Canadian forum that is disturbing to see in a group of pilots who are flying the public around for a major airline, the depth of denial by some of these pilots is as I said, disturbing to say the least.

Maybe the time has come for me to quit reading this stuff now that I am retired?

All true:ok:

But then you realize that with a few balanced posts interspersed, that the posts we read do not represent a worthwhile sample of pilots in general. It's the strongly opinionated posters that tend to monopolize the discssion forums. So like always you have to read all and make the balances yourself.

[infrequentflyer789]

In a 3rd or 4th generation aircraft, you aren't likely to lose the Hydraulic system fluid because of check valves in the lines,


It's happened since in Iraq -> Airbus + SAM = all hydraulics gone. They got it down too. So, unlikely, but not impossible.

There was however, some serious 'creative' manual flying going on and if they hadn't chopped the thrust on landing it probably would have made a greaser instead of a cartwheel. Capt. Haines presentation is awesome.minor nitpick - they didn't cartwheel in. It's a common misconception - the video (and eyewitness accounts) all point to it, but they more likely saw the broken right wing cartwheeling rather than the aircraft. Haynes himself states that they did not cartwheel.

[misd-agin]

Baghdad A300 was an old, 3 man, version. Design standards from the 1970's, before the KSUX crash.

KSUX UAL DC-10 event? Go to the NTSB office in D.C. and read the investigators notes from the interviews. Checkout the FDR data traces from before, and after, CKA CA Denny King entered the cockpit. Read the interview notes. Connect the dots.

[misd-agin]

Did airline's bar on hard landings force a pilot 'error'? - India - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Did-airlines-bar-on-hard-landings-force-a-pilot-error/articleshow/5963900.cms)

MUMBAI: Air crash investigators worldwide share a belief__that the initial reports on the probable cause of an aircrash usually turn out to be untrue.

The Air India Express top brass would do well to hope that this bit of industry wisdom holds true in the Mangalore aircrash case too since initial reports from aviation circles point at pilot error arising out of the management's highly controversial policies.

According to sources, the AI Express Boeing 737-800 aircraft touched down deep on runway 24 of Mangalore airport, much beyond the stipulated touchdown zone. Why would a senior commander miss the touchdown zone and hit the runway? Here's where the airline management's involvement comes in. There is a diktat for Air India Express pilots which bars hard landings. A circular issued by the airline about a year ago says that landings should not exceed 1.65G.

What is a 1.65G landing? When the undercarriage of a plane touches down on the runway, the sink rate goes from say 200 feet per minute to zero feet per minute in a few seconds. So for a higher sink rate, the impact on touchdown is greater and vice versa. A hard landing typically occurs when the sink rate is high and the aircraft touches down on the runway with a thud instead of doing a smooth transition onto ground.

The hard or smooth quotient of a landing is expressed in a term called "touchdown G". A 1G landing means the force which acted on aircraft tyres at the instant of touchdown is equivalent to the weight of the aircraft (1 x aircraft weight). A 2G landing would mean the force is two times the weight of the aircraft. Higher the value of G, harder the landing. The AI Express circular limits landings to 1.65G, though according to the aircraft manufacturer Boeing's specifications the aircraft can safely handle up to 2.5G landings.

"Every time a landing exceeds 1.65G, the pilot gets hauled up by the air safety department. Two hard landings and the pilot is sent for a training session. Passengers also complain about hard landings and so the airline is particular about smooth landings which are achieved with lower touchdown G values," said a source. Now, one of the ways to achieve a smooth touchdown is to come over the runway at a higher speed and float for some distance before letting the landing gear touch down on the runway. This reduces the G force on impact. "Pilots often land a few feet ahead of the touchdown zone when they float over the runway to make a smooth landing," said a source. "The AI Express commander too seems to have employed these tactics. His aircraft missed the touchdown point," the source added. What the commander executed was a late, smooth touchdown at high speed. "It is indeed pilot error, but it is an error that was forced by the management policy for smooth landings. A hard landing may be an uncomfortable landing, but sometimes it is a safer landing than a smooth landing," the source said.

Capt Z Glusica was popular among his first officers as he allowed them to do landings under his supervision. "Any commander with the kind of experience that Capt Glusica had can safely allow a first officer to land. But the AI Express air safety department is set against it. If a first officer never learns to land under the supervision of an experienced commander, how will he handle a situation if for instance the commander gets incapacitated?" asked the source. "Even if we assume that it was the first officer who touched down late then all that the commander had to do was do a go-around (i.e., take off again and come around for a second attempt at landing) and the aircraft would have landed safely," the official said.

A B737 aircraft can safely do a go-around after touchdown. But it cannot do a safe go-around if the decision to do a go-around is taken late or if it is taken after the reverse thrusters have been deployed (thrust in the opposite direction so as decelerate the aircraft). A go-around after thrust reversal selection is prohibited. "The airline policy is such that pilots try to avoid go-arounds as they have to explain it to the air safety department. A go-around infact is a highly recommended safety procedure when the touchdown is deep. But due to the airline diktat, the commander must have had a few microseconds of indecision after the aircraft touched down. So he seems to have either opted for the go-around late or he did it after deploying reverse thrusters. Since the go-around attempt failed, this is a plausible explanation," said the source.

There are unconfirmed reports that the plane's nose wheel burst after touchdown. It is difficult to bring an aircraft to a halt near the end of a runway as this portion bears aircraft skid marks and rubber desposits which affects braking action. When the plane attempted to lift off again the aircraft's wing hit the localiser (a T-shaped frangible antenna positioned perpendicular to the runway central line and located about 150 feet from the end of the runway) and then plunged into the valley. "Since the wreckage was well off the runway one can say that there seemed to have been an attempt to do a go around. Only investigations will reveal why did the attempt go wrong," says the source.

The pilots also brought in the fatigue angle to explain the wrong decisions taken by the pilot. "It does not matter how many days rest he got prior to these flights that he operated. He took off from Calicut on Friday night for Dubai and then came to Mangalore. The entire operation was done at night, during circadian low. His alertness level at the end of that 9-10 hour night duty surely would not have been very high," the pilot added. For the last three years, pilots of Air India, Indian Airlines and Jet Airways have been pushing for better pilot rest rules in India. Currently, the rest rules followed are the ones formulated in 1992.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

How do people expect FO's to be Captains if they're restricted from flying as FO's?

That is a SOP that I absolutely don't understand.

If they can't fly they don't belong at the pointy end of the airplane. If they can fly let them fly. In they're inexperienced allow the Captain to make the judgement call as to who flies the flight(segment/sector).

Newbies get at least 50% of all landings with me. Some trips as high as 75%. I don't need the landing experience, but junior does. Junior relief officers(IO's/FB's, etc) get half of 'my' landings. FO gets 50%, inexperienced relief pilot gets 25%, I get 25%.

I want new FO's up to speed as quickly as possible. Taking landings from them, when I have more than enough, doesn't increase their experience level as rapidly as possible.

[Centaurus]

I want new FO's up to speed as quickly as possible. Taking landings from them, when I have more than enough, doesn't increase their experience level as rapidly as possible.
misd-agin is offline Report Post Reply

The problem lies with the company training department. Low hour new first officers will naturally have problems with landings especially in crosswinds and windy conditions. The captain who gives away landings to inexperienced first officers under those conditions is asking for trouble. Why? because heavy/hard landings are frightening to the passengers and the QAR will soon have the captain on the mat for lack of good judgement in giving away the landing where more than usual skills are required.

The answer is simulator specialised training. Most simulator type ratings are accented towards automation throughout the conversion course. Even the most basic of handling skills - the instrument rating test - is primarily on automatics with perhaps a teeny weeny bit of raw data hand flying tossed in for good measure.

Inexperienced newly graduated cadet first officers who legally are in command of a bloody big jet transport should never be put in that position of responsibility until they have been proved highly competent in pure flying skill and not merely ticked off in the right boxes as being found competent at monitoring a computer from the RH seat.

Simulator training for these newbies should include a high proportion of hand flown non-automatics, non flight director, circuits and landings, go-arounds and emphasis on wet runway crosswind landings on limiting runway lengths - not on huge 10,000 ft runways in the simulator where the risks involved with landing long never show up simply because the aircraft eventually stops with several thousand feet remaining. No wuckin furries mate - plenty of room.

During recurrent training in the simulator the same type of manual handling needs to be accented for captains, too.

[TopTup]

At AI the FO's are, at best, given 3-5 take offs and landings a year. Some a lot more, others even less. The omniscient "Commander" will more than likely take all sectors. I do know that expat Capts will be more willing to "give flying" to the FO as that is what they are accustomed to do. The local guys are "accustomed" to a different ideology.

So, when the FO becomes a "Commander" he / she will behave the same way, ie following the "custom" & airline culture that they were bought up in to do all the flying. That is not their fault as they have been treated this way and hence belive "it is the way it should be".

Recency on t/o's & landings, let alone approaches? All waivered and / or covered up by the fraudulent proficiency checks and sims.

So, blame the pilot or blame the system?

[Carjockey]

Centaurus is absolutely right.

Airline training standards are most definitely not the same worldwide.

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/369326-doh-kul.html

So what is the international standard? :eek:

I am asking because occasionally I and my family need to travel from point A to point B.

We will not travel on questionable airlines, and regardless of the discussions and assertions here, we know from experience that these are many.

Our first/only priority is that we complete our journey safely.

Say what?

CJ

[Carjockey]

I have the greatest respect for all 'professional' pilots out there.

I mean, how many times have I put my life (and my families lives) into your hands? :eek:

But there is an element amongst you (i'm sure you know who) who are neither 'pilots' nor 'professionals'.

These guys just want a 'job'!

It does not matter to them what that job is, and it does not matter to them if they can do the job or not!

They just want a job!

I know how it works, been exposed to this culture many many times...

GET RID OF THEM!!!
EXPOSE THEM!!!

You know who they are, and you know there is no place for this nonsense in ANY industry, particularly the AIRLINE industry!!!

CJ

[framer]

At AI the FO's are, at best, given 3-5 take offs and landings a year. Some a lot more, others even less. The omniscient "Commander" will more than likely take all sectors. I do know that expat Capts will be more willing to "give flying" to the FO as that is what they are accustomed to do. The local guys are "accustomed" to a different ideology.

Spot on. Its a big problem. Pilots from the UK, USA, Ausi etc don't understand how bad the situation is unless they've been there. There are many people flying jets who actually couldn't take off and land one on their own. Sad but true.