Tutor noise issues

[Al-Berr]

I heard a rumour from an ex-EFT QFI that there were currently issues with the noise levels inside the Tutor. It is something to do with the helmet not being ANR and bringing the noise levels within allowed limits. Possibly, the aircraft has been flying illegally since its introduction in 1999/2000.:D

He also commented that QFIs can now only fly 9 hours per week and if they fly 3 hours in one day, they must have the next day on the ground.:eek:

Can anyone on the fleet confirm or deny?

[AllTrimDoubt]

Say again.......?

:E

[getsometimein]

I find it hard to believe a tutor is noisier than some of the large aircraft in service (or until recently), eg Nimrod MR2...

We were told to wear earplugs under the headset to help vs the noise, but then you couldn't hear the intercom!

[Future Hunter]

I'm not sure what issues they would be. All aircraft are noisy!

There are 2 kinds of helmet in standard use (the mk4 I think and the white helmets!) and don't have a noise cancelling facility, just ear cups and a squelch on the VOX. There is a stringent programme for monitoring degredation of hearing loss in aircrew, and all aircrew do courses on how to look after themselves and recognise symptoms.

The problem you have to look at is what was fine before may not be fine now - look at Oscar Wilde spending time in prison and the front page story on this week's RAF news!

I however have not heard anything about changing of hours reference noise damage- maybe I should head off down the med centre... Who is whistling...

[Future Hunter]

getsometimein - I agree - sitting behind four Spey jets for 5 hours with a flimsy headset or a 4.5 litre piston with a bone dome?

[denachtenmai]

Noise!!Try 15 hours in a Shack.:eek:
Regards, Den.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Have to say, I never found the tutor noisy at all (and my hearing hasn't suffered despite several hundreds of hours in the thing!). Though I haven't heard anything of this latest rumour. Just for the record the helmets in use on it are the Mk4, Mk10 & the "alpha" helmet (the white quick-adjusty one) but only spaceys/pax use the alpha. No ANR boxes are fitted to any of the helmets or intercom system.

[Ivan Rogov]

Anyone out there have a copy of a letter I saw a few years ago which had looked at the noise level at each seat position on the MR2? Seem to remember the beams were worst and that there was a one off payment for those who suffered hearing loss (£8000?).
How many of our aircraft have ANR, is it a requirement or just used to allow crews to operate below legal limits?

Sorry, back to the Tutor................

[airborne_artist]

When I saw the title of the thread I remembered that there had been complaints from residents about the pitch and volume of the Tutor when operating at high RPM. I guess that any noise outside the aircraft will also affect those inside it.

Living near the secret Oxon heli-base I hear it quite often, but I don't complain at anything that gets youngsters/undergrads into the air.

[stiknruda]

I understand, from a current BFT stude, that max sortie in the mighty Tutor is now 1h35 because of the in-cockpit noise!

Stik

[NutLoose]

Can you not simply turn the engine off?? after all the propeller is only there to provide cooling air for the crew......... Don't believe me, turn it off and watch them start to sweat ;)

[MATELO]

We were told to wear earplugs under the headset to help vs the noise, but then you couldn't hear the intercom!

A blessing in disguise sometimes !!!!!!

[MATELO]

Noise!!Try 15 hours in a Shack

Never affected a certain Shack pilot, who somehow manage to conjur up a mattress and sneak a few hours in the "greenhouse" as soon as the wheels were stowed safely away!!!!:):)

[aw ditor]

Airborne Artiste'

Living near a secret Cambs. Tutor base we live with the noise levels under the climb out from W***n. However as a clapped-out' old ex AEF Pilot concur completely with your view on getting the next generation airborne. But, why are they noisy? Prop. tips going supersonic as per Harvard or is there a hole in the exhaust which ATS could fix? Could some of our TP brethren explain why?

AD'.

[Miles Magister]

After many hours in the mighty hunter with only a headset; then the chippy, the dog and the Tutor I can confirm am rather hard of hearing. Or is that just an excuse for slow of thought.

Say again, over
MM

[BugOutWest]

I heard a rumour from an ex-EFT QFI that there were currently issues with the noise levels inside the Tutor. It is something to do with the helmet not being ANR and bringing the noise levels within allowed limits. Possibly, the aircraft has been flying illegally since its introduction in 1999/2000.

He also commented that QFIs can now only fly 9 hours per week and if they fly 3 hours in one day, they must have the next day on the ground.


7hrs 58mins per week, actually. It's to do with the low-frequency noise, 80 and 100Hz and the fact that it's constant and loud, I believe. The limit is 1:35 per day, and no more than 8hrs per week as a rolling total. I gather that the helmet attenuates only the higher frequencies, perhaps because the lower ones are more of a vibration. The constant drone apparently vibrates the cilia in the cochlea, breaking them off and creating a notch in the hearing at that frequency. There's plenty of research material on the Internet.

We had yellow E.A.R. plugs to begin with but they a) made it v. difficult to hear the intercom, b) made an aural "goldfish bowl" in your head, as it were and c) didn't work, probably for the same reasons above.

Trouble is, I can't make out what difference the damage might make, except that it's illegal. The annual hearing test goes down only to 500Hz, and at Boots yesterday they went down only to 250Hz (and the audiologist was no real help). I can tell now that we had AR5 cutouts in our helmets on my first tour as my high-tone hearing is damaged, to some degree. And for about 18 months I have had a sense of slight deafness on landing, but I put it down to sticky tubes and a fast (well fastish :)) descent.

It looks like technology is the only answer, apart from binning Tutor flying ... ;)

BoW

[Al-Berr]

Thanks BoW,

This must have quite an impact on the 3 EFTs if each QFI can only fly 1.35 hrs per day.

It'll help the circuit congestion at Cranwell though!

Is there a fix on the way?

Al

[Matt E Lowe]

Why are they getting rid of the Firefly in favour of the Grob then? It seems that this is a backward step or do they want to go over to a single type? I loved the Bulldog and I really enjoyed the Firefly, I seem to remember it was quite nippy and manoeuvrable for a light aircraft. The Grob seems a bit more sedate (but then I haven't flown any of these for getting on for 14 years so maybe my memory is playing up).

[noprobs]

The Tutor was first manufactured 11 years ago, so a 14 year old comparison must be suspect. There were earlier variants of the Grob 115, but the 115E (Tutor) was made to meet a UK military specification, with first deliveries in 1999. The 115A-D were fibreglass aircraft with smaller engines that the CFC Tutor. 14 years ago, the Slingsby in military use was the 160HP Firefly. Both it and the 200 were more sedate than the Tutor. The Slingsby 260, as used by the USAF and later JEFTS, was more lively, but rather noisy, requiring its QFIs to wear expensive moulded ear plugs. The Control of Noise at Work Regulations of 2005 prompted the latest round of re-assessment of all working environments, and when the RAFCAM scientists got round to the Tutor, its cockpit was deemed to be an environment in which the occupants needed either extra acoustic protection or time-limited exposure.

[BugOutWest]

This must have quite an impact on the 3 EFTs if each QFI can only fly 1.35 hrs per day.

It'll help the circuit congestion at Cranwell though!

Is there a fix on the way?


A serious effect, yes, Al.

I gather that the fix will be technical, such as active noise reduction. But since that will be a fair old cost, you can imagine that hard questions are going to be asked about priorities. Especially so since I gather that a large capital project at one of the Tutor bases is likely to be held up on cost or budget grounds. But of course there are going to be many, many ideas for cutting costs in MOD.

BoW

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Didn't the SHAR guys used to have little ANR boxes issued to them?

[Anonystude]

As did the Tucanos, using a system mounted in the helmet with a seperate battery box in a pocket somewhere (and no modification to the aircraft).

[clunckdriver]

As the launch customer for the Grob 115 series in Canada {My wife and I owned a few flight schools, since sold to staff and customers, old age the only reason} I just cant belive that the RAF finds them to be too loud in the cockpit, we regulary flew eight hour aerobatic days, all are still passing our six monthly hearing tests, in fact the quack tells me Im in the top 5% of tested pilots, however if one looks at the hearing results for kids trying to join the CAF the results are bloody scary, the end result of boom boxes, loud rock and spending most of the day with plugs blasting into their ears,It all sounds a bit contrived, just like the "no pax flying" in DC3s!

[5 Forward 6 Back]

When did the Tucano have ANR?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

5/6, that's a good question. I don't remember that...

Clunckdriver: What model of Grob was it? I think the issue relates specifically to the 115E, which has different engine and prop to the other models.

[Anonystude]

At a guess, some time in late 08 or early last year.

[McDuff]

As the launch customer for the Grob 115 series in Canada {My wife and I owned a few flight schools, since sold to staff and customers, old age the only reason} I just cant belive that the RAF finds them to be too loud in the cockpit, we regulary flew eight hour aerobatic days, all are still passing our six monthly hearing tests,

Clunck, I was equally sceptical as my hearing has not changed in 9 years of flying the machines. But it's the frequency (80-100Hz) that's important as most hearing tests don't go that low: the RAF tests from 8kHz to 500Hz.

McD

[Megawart]

Is it the case that certain marks of RN Seakings have ANR, but others (such as RAF SAR cabs) do not. If so, where's the duty of care? If not, I'll get my coat.

[Greenleader]

It's a sign of the times. Years back when people were flying Shacks/Nimrods/SHARs or any number of other noisy beasts, society was not a litigious one. Now, sadly, it is. An expert somewhere has decreed that the Tutor is too noisy for prolonged exposure (it's the same for the Hawk T1 rear cockpit), so to prevent the litigation when someone blames their hearing loss on flying said aircraft, they are changing the way it is operated to mitigate the risk.

Whether we agree or not, it's not the same world as it was even 10 years ago - we have to live with that and work around the problems. IMO, life would be simpler (and cheaper) if people accepted that things they choose to do are not risk free - but that's never going to happen these days... :ugh:

[clunckdriver]

Sorry to take so long to reply, hard drive melted! We operated the 115C and the E model, one with two blade fixed pitch, the other with three blade C/S prop, back pack chutes, no hard hats.I did my time in the back seat of Harvards and both seats on the B25 instructing, now they were noisy! I always used ear plugs in these aircraft, also plugs, hard hat and ANR when spraying in the Ag Cat, my wife says my only hearing loss is "selective", such phrases as "take out the garbage" "plow the snow" seem to get lost between ear hole and brain!