ATPL Requirements

[Prop Job]

Good Day Guys and Girls,

So here's my problem. I've got about 1,800hrs now and decided it's time to get my ATPL test over and done with. Unfortunately I don't have the required 250hrs total command time (or combination of PIC and PICUS) as required in the Civil Aviation Regulations. On some application forms it states to you require either the 250hrs of command time OR 500hrs multi-crew time. Multi-crew time I have plenty of (about 1,400hrs), but I can't find anything in the law to back up the application forms. I tried contacting the CAA, but failed miserably at finding anybody who can help me.

Does anybody know if the multi-crew time will be enough to help me out of my command troubles?

Thanks in advance,

Prop Job

[VarigMD11]

Im pretty sure you can get a "frozen" ATPL and then you have a certain timeframe in which to get the proper hours in order for it to be "melted" - if you know what I mean!

[Charliesjc]

If it says OR 500 MCC and you have 1400 then I can't see what the problem would be. Phone your local flight school and speak to a DE and ask him/her.

[Charliesjc]

My bad I just realised you said you couldn't find it in the law. Here it is then:

Requirements for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Aeroplane)
61.07.1 (1) An applicant for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Aeroplane)
must –
(a) be not less than 21 years of age;
(b) hold a valid Class 1 medical certificate, issued in terms of Part 67;
(c) produce evidence of holding or having held, within the previous 60
months, the following –
(i) a valid South African Private Pilot Licence (Aeroplane); or
(ii) a valid pilot licence (aeroplane) issued by a Contracting State; or
(iii) a valid South African Air Force pilot qualification (aeroplane); or
(iv) a valid Student Pilot Licence where the applicant has completed an
integrated training course approved by the Authority; and
(v) a valid instrument rating;
(d) have, within the previous 60 months, completed a multi-crew cooperation
course;
(e) have successfully completed the training as prescribed in Document
SA-CATS-FCL 61 at an approved Part 141 aviation training organisation;
(f) have passed the theoretical knowledge examination as prescribed in
Document SA-CATS-FCL 61.
(g) have undergone the skills test referred to in regulation 61.07.4;

(2) An applicant for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) must
have completed, in aeroplanes, not less than 1500 hours of flight time of which –
(a) 500 hours must be pilot-in-command-under-supervision; or
(b) 250 hours must be as pilot-in-command, of which up to 150 hours may
be pilot-in-command-under-supervision; and
(c) 200 hours must be cross-country flight time, of which 100 hours may be
as co-pilot or pilot-in-command-under-supervision;
(d) 75 hours must be instrument time, of which not more than 30 hours may
be acquired in a flight simulation training device (FSTD) approved for
the purpose; and
(e) 100 hours shall be night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot
.
(3) For the purposes of sub-regulation (1), in the case of single-pilot aeroplanes
operated by two pilots according to operational requirements as approved
by the Commissioner, both pilots must have successfully completed the
multi-crew co-operation training as specified in this Part.

PILOT LICENSING
CAR PART 61–61 Issue 17

(4) The 1 500 hours flying experience referred to in sub-regulation (2) may
comprise flight time in any of the following capacities –
(a) As pilot-in-command, counted in full;
(b) As pilot under instruction (dual), counted in full;
(c) As co-pilot performing under the supervision of the pilot-in-command
the functions and duties of the pilot-in-command, counted in full up to a
maximum of 500 hours, provided both pilots have completed multicrew
cooperation training;
(d) As an appropriately rated co-pilot, counted in full;
(e) As student pilot-in-command and as student pilot-in-command-undersupervision
up to a maximum of 50 hours towards the pilot-in-command
time required for the issue of an Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Aeroplane),
counted in full, provided that the Part 141 aviation training organisation
has been authorised by the Commissioner to allow the logging
of student pilot-in-command-under-supervision flight time;
(f) A maximum of 100 hours may have been completed in an flight simulation
training device (FSTD) of which a maximum of 25 hours may have
been completed in a flight procedures trainer 1 (FNPT 1), or, where the
training is provided in an integrated training course, 40 hours in an
FNPT II, which may include 10 hours in an FNPT 1;
(g) Up to 50 percent of the 1 500 hours and each of the requirements specified
in sub-regulations (2) (a), (b), (c) (d) and (e) above may be completed
in helicopters;
(h) A maximum of 30 hours flight time in touring motor gliders, gliders, micro
light aircraft (excluding a weight-shift micro light aeroplane, or an
aeroplane with a maximum take-off mass of less that 450 kg), may be
counted towards the 1 500 hours experience requirement.

(5) A South African Air Force pilot flight instructor or navigator instructor
may apply for exemption for some or all of these requirements as indicated in
sub-regulation 61.01.9(23).

[checkerboard6]

Looking at the above looks like you fall a bit short and need some much needed time in the left seat !

I know the cadets at link/sax get their atp from doing some picus........

If all else fails go into the CAA in person and ask !

[Der absolute Hammer]

Now what exactly is the definition of Pilot in Command under Supervision?

Can you be the pilot in command under supervision in an aircraft which requires an ATPL to be in command if you do not have an ATPL?

A pilot in command under supervision is not necessarily the same as a co pilot.
A PIC/US is perhaps some one acting as being in command of an aircraft who is responsible for all decisions, pre flight, during flight and post flight, including the completion and signing of load sheets, resports etc and so forth exactly as though he were in actuality in command. Since the responsibility for load sheets and documentation inherently lies with the commander of an aircraft, in order for a pilot to act as commander under supervision, the actual commander must abrogate some of his responsibilities. For this reason, time spent flying as pilot in command unders supervision should be entered in the appropriate column in the pilots logbook (CAP 407) and each flight requires the signature of the actual commander as designated by the company.

That as best can remember is the stuff on PIC/US as oppposed to Co Pilot, from the UK. Wonder what it is in sunny old SA these days. Point is though that it would be strange if PIC/US were the same as Co-Pilot- otherwise every 200 hour Baron newbie who landed a job on a nice shiny tube would be logging his time as PIC/US-would he not now?

[dynamicd]

:ok:Here in Nigeria there is virtually no general aviation, and because of this most guys who get jobs start out straight out of flight school on the right seat of airlines or coperate flight departments.in essence they have only 100 pic time from school.

Most if not all companies in nigeria and ncaa as well approve of first officers to log time as Picus when they are Pilot flying on a sector. The log book entry most be signed by the pic.It is this PICUS time that pilots from nigeria use for the issue of FAA, JAA,UKCAA,atps which are the most common as no school in nigeria does atpl training and testing All Atpls issued in nigeria are converted from mainly the above mentioned authorities.

I believe SAX and link cadets use this same route because they have the same problem,straight out of flying school into the right seat with not enough pic time for atpl issue.

Steps you must take:

1.get your captains to countersign your PF flights with there licence number.

2.Your company must write a letter confirming that you did fly the sectors as PF.

This has worked for people I know with their JAA,FAA atpls etc so I think it will work for SACAA as well.Also try to get in touch with some SAA cadets and find out how they did theirs.good luck and keep us informed on how it goes.:ok: