Is there really a lack of Engineers?

[whissper]

If so then why are so few organisations not investing in training of apprentices? There seems to be a huge number of would-bees but very few seem to able to convert that into an actual learning job.

[AvionicsGuy]

not as many well paying jobs either

[mtoroshanga]

They are too busy employing jobs-worths and useless seat shiners talking rubbish and doing nothing but obstructing the boys trying to do the job!!!

[muduckace]

Fact is industry wide as far as I have seen Maintenance is viewed as a liability instead of an asset to upper MGT/ownership. This creates a default mindframe of.. How cheap can we maintain an aircraft, still stay in compliance and not have a poor safety record.

The airline industry for decades have been building aircraft that are supposed to self diagnose themselves but we all know that it does not matter how far technology advances when anything get's old it breaks.

There will be a continuous swing of supply and demand based on reliability and finance, these jerks never get the truth that a happy well trained well paid force of LAME's/AMT's will keep their operation running like clockwork. There is allways some idiot with a great pitch to the upper execs on a wonderful way to save money maintaining their aircraft, said idiot does his damage and in 2-5 years moves on to another operator we get a new idiot and someone gets our old idiot.

Hey wait a minute who is the idiot here this guy just ran off with all of our bonuses legally and with reputation intact.

Forgive my bitter cynicism, just seen too much of this sh&t to be a happy cool aid drinking "gate hero" anymore.

Now it is more like.

MUD "what's up Captain"

Captain "#1 ADF is dead"

MUD (understanding full well a c/b reset will move the bird most times), "ok Captain, hold on while I head back to the line shack and pull up a AMM and check history"

Captain "can't you just reset a c/b or something"

Mud "why is this not on a logpage"

Captain "well we were hoping you could just do your majic (blink, blink)"

Mud "sorry, need it in the book before I can do anything, if you wish I will write it up"

FFWD.....

30 minutes later the breaker gets reset and the logpage signed off.




HEAR ME NOW!!!!!

If we all did things proper as stated above, the industry would be forced to hire more qualified Techs. When we are in demand wages increase. Bottom line is accepting the fact that we are a liability from a business aspect gives us a strong market position. Being the lazy oldschool, good old guy that plays the game on their terms ruines the industry.

STAND STRONG MY BROTHERS!


Oh, to answer the OT

There is a lack of smart engineers, and I am not speaking of the booksmart type or the "supertech" type. More like streetsmart. People who understand how the industry works.

[BAe146s make me cry]

There is a shortage of well trained & experienced engineers. Plenty of nextgen Part 66 licence holders in the UK but limited all round knowledge. This is the legacy of an education built on coaching for the exams. As many know, the practical experience element is easily fabricated by many (not all).

I'm hoping that an eventual economic turnaround and most recently, certain authorities undertake a more measured response to continued volcanic
activity. At that point, hopefully the UK will have a better respected, growing, capable, competent pool of Engineers, licenced & unlicenced performing aircraft maintenance.

Our recent spate of maintenance incidents (a few near-fatal also) within our Part145 points to changes needed at all levels. The reason we have not lost an a/c is pure luck, nothing else. For the future of our industry internationally, we need more than just luck..

There will be vacancies, but be prepared any newbies considering this vocation, this is a full-on career, not just a job and learning the core basics should not be rushed.


BAe

Association of Licensed Aircraft Engineers (ALAE) - Welcome (http://www.alae.org)

[TURIN]

Supply & Demand sir is the short answer.

20 years ago a "quick" transit on a 747 would take about 5 blokes. 1 on the walk round, 1 decanting a case of oil in 4 engines, 1 doing the fuel, 1 in the cabin and 1 sorting out the flight deck snags.

A 90 minute transit on a 777 can be done with 1 or 2 these days. Very rare that oil is required, and even then iit's only a couple of quarts. The fuel is either handled by the supplier or even if by the eng it generally looks after itself once dialled up. Reliability is astonishing, Nil defects are common, the cabin's really the only area that has got heavier-workload wise-and mostly due to IFE problems.

So, less Engineers around these days and fewer required. Certainly on the line anyway. Is the hangar any different? I don't know it's been over 20 years since I was there.

[muduckace]

You bring back memories, it has been allmost 15 years since I hustled a 747 classic, they were freighters and we had 2 or 3 guys to handle them. No joke about the case of oil, those JT9-A's through J's used to suck down about a quart an hour.

I don't think hangar maintenance has changed much it all depends on the aircraft as well I guess. Bottom line is if we all did our jobs by the book (line mx), globally airlines would not have the manpower to handle their fleet.

Another sore spot are pilots who operate aircraft into stations that have been shut down and have contract or on call MX not writing up discrepancies as they would going into a MX base.

Seen this before on an IB log page (#5 tire worn), funny thing was the worn spot was on the bottom when they blocked in and none of our pilots do post flight walk-arounds.

[leewan]

I fully agree with muduckace's post on the current state of a/c mx. Most airlines nowadays are downsizing their mx arm and have outsourced it to third party providers, washing their hands of the dirty business and at the same time lowering costs. To many of these freshly graduated beanpoles and accountants, mx is seen as the over hyped part of a/c business with room for cutting. Makes me wonder whether human factors courses are compulsory for these clowns. Or repeated screening of air crash investigation episodes on mx showed to them to drive home the point. Everything's fine and dandy when nothing happens. Just see what happens when it's otherwise !

And as for Turin's post, also agree with him as a/cs nowadays are pretty much self sufficient. They have been designed by the manufacturers, at the request of airlines, to be less mx intensive. And it's showing ! Tech log write ups are rare. The only post 90 a/c, AFAIK, that is an oil guzzler now is the A343. Compared to every other a/c in the 80s. And they can pretty much troubleshoot their own write ups with MAT and OMT.

[Flightmech]

Ah, the good old days. Oiling a 747 with JT9's using a watering can marked in quart increments. Fantastic time saving device.

[Blacksheep]

Most airlines nowadays are downsizing their mx arm and have outsourced it to third party providers, washing their hands of the dirty business and at the same time lowering costs
So, have improved metallurgy, composite components, MSG3 with its "On-Condition" and "Condition Monitored" maintenance, all coupled with 'Reliability Analysis' based escalation of inspection intervals, not had an effect on maintenance? The plain fact is that a lot of historic maintenance practices - like No-Fly zones over the whole of Europe due to a volcanic eruption in far-off Iceland - were based upon excessive caution.

The result of developments in technology and techniques mean fewer engineers being needed to maintain modern aircraft. Check out the Boeing MPD maintenance intervals and work content for the B787 and reflect upon what that will mean for Maintenance.

If there were indeed a shortage of engineers, there would be an upward pressure on salaries. And there isn't.

[Rigga]

Even using RCM and MSG-3 the non-safety AMP tasks still can't be moved more than 10% from the MPD where approved.

The real killer for base maintenance is new aircraft like Embraer with long times between checks and (as Blacksheep says) engine/component improvements requiring much less disturbance.

[spanner90]

To leewan,

As you know, aircrew have CRM, Eng have human factors, and management have "incentive bonuses" for cutting corners!

At the end of the day, in the coroners court, the engineer is the one who is often made the scape-goat. Then manager can run and hide (with no regulatory penalty), and the aircrew... (it's the coroners court, say no more!) By this stage the engineer has various regulators breathing down their neck, just waiting for the court to finish with his(her) sorry carcass!

Having said all that, all aviation trades are still identified as critically "in-demand" by the Oz govt (as of last week). I know of at least two organisations after LJ 35 experienced LAME's, so things can't be too bad, can they? :cool:

Spanner

[eagleskinner]

Ooooh - a thread that is straight from my heart! That word "Engineer"! I'm a Brit army trained tech (early 70's) and eventually achieved that title "Aircraft Engineer". Nowadays I work for 'Company A' in Hamburg and see many "Aircraft Engineers" working on today's aeroplanes.

I am saddened - really saddened - at how much that "title" has lost in real meaning compared to what it meant for those who taught me my trade. Nowadays someone who calls himself engineer is given a high paid desk job to design and manage systems. I would say today's "Engineers" can tell you how many beans there are in the jar without more than a second's pause.

Just don't ask them to open the jar! For that you need an experienced mechanic...

The thing is, modern aircraft are designed so well, that you don't need brains or experience to build them. Machines do all that, and far better than any human brain. Machines rivet fuselage shells automatically, modern tools take any physical effort out of assembling an aeroplane. We haven't reached "Ford-type" production lines yet, but all the skill has been taken out of building an aeroplane.

If you've ever built a Lego Technik toy - or even a Revell, Airfix, Tamiya model - you could, potentially build an aeroplane now -- and even survive the first flight. Much of the necessary training needed for engineers these days can be done "OJT". You just need a technical minded person with higher than average IQ and who can read and follow rules.

As for the maintainers... well, that is mostly experience. In my early days I wouldn't have known that a well applied hide-faced mallet can cure all sorts of ills on a helicopter. In my mid-career years I could hear an engine's starting problems and simply know that the carb-needle was stuck and that a one pound hide face will dislodge that sticking needle (even though the sound of "THUD" was enough to scare the peelow all the way into tomorrow...)

Nowadays?

Well, to tell the truth, I think that all these new designs that reduce the load on our grey cells is definitely an improvement. The only thing to ask now though, is "Can one of today's engineers fix a cantankerous freight hauling hack with an old fag pag packet, a roll of speed tape, some locking wire and various out of date cans of oil, MEK, Avgas and a gash box?"

Oh! What a giveaway! I still have a gash box :D

Yep, the "engineer's" job these days is no longer as challenging or interesting. Perhaps that is why the job is losing newcomers? Besides, as one of my fore-writers has aptly said - Management have budgets (er - incentive bonuses) to cut corners. AND they have the power to hire and fire. If a real engineer stands up and says something like "That's a bit iffy", then the guy with the purse strings will still make his decision based on pennies and not people.

Dare I mention that there have been many aircraft "incidents" that could really be put down to money concerns despite the real engineers (or those with the commomon sense) saying "nonononono" and being overruled by Mammon!

...it's no wonder then, why we aren't attracting enough good quality people to the profession.

Just the view of one grumpy old git... :E

[h3dxb]

With the lack of well paid jobs , there is a lack of smart engineers. Pay peanuts and You get monkeys....

The Airline Monkey.
A guy walks into a pet store and was looking at the animals on display.
While he was there, an engineer from the local airport walked in and said to the shopkeeper,
"I'd like a Line Service monkey, please."
The clerk nodded, went to a cage at the side of the store and took out a monkey. He put a collar and leash on the animal and handed it to the engineer, saying, "That'll be $1,000." The engineer paid and left with the monkey. Surprised, the first customer went to the shopkeeper and said,
"That was a very expensive monkey. Most of them are only a few hundred dollars. Why did that one cost so much?" The shopkeeper answered,
"Ah-----that was a line service monkey. He can park, fuel, and service all types of aircraft, conduct all required ground ops testing, rig aircraft flight controls, and all with no mistakes. He's well worth the money." With his interest peaked, the customer then looked around and spotted a monkey in another cage with a $10,000 price tag. "That one's even more expensive! What can it do?" he asked. "Oh, that one is a "Maintenance Supervisor" monkey. She can instruct at all levels of aircraft maintenance, supervise all corrective and preventive maintenance programs, supervise a crew of maintainers, and even do most of the paperwork. A very useful monkey indeed," replied the shopkeeper.
The customer continued to look around the shop a little longer and found a third monkey in a cage. The price tag read $50,000. Reading that the customer said, "$50,000!!!! Holy smoke, what does this one do?" "Well", the shopkeeper said, "I've never actually seen him do anything but drink beer, screw the girl monkeys, and play with his dick, but his papers say he's a pilot!" :ok:

[MATMAX]

Hi h3dxb,
Very good !
experience from mrates ?
Tchuss.

[MATMAX]

Mr Ludlow,
"Hey dude, it goes for every single airline, not just EK http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif"
Totally agree with you but others airlines are not taking their Engineers for idiots and SLAVES.
"I could call every French, Italian, Spanish company a craphole with its ignorant people " : can you tell me where Toulouse is ?
Do you know about cars named Ferrari , Lamborghini , Maserati , etc ...?
Do you know also about football ?
Europeans are ignorant people ...?
Where are you from ? i think that i have guessed from your arrogant way of writing.
"don't know why on Earth you keep talking about a company " : mate , it is only for everybody to know the truth about whats going on overthere , to avoid others to make the mistake of their life...
2 years after resignation , my problems with them are not fixed because they do not want to fix it !
FYI , they make me loose a lot of money and offered everything i have left to some VPs and "charity" and they asked me to pay my "dues" !!!
Thats a very well organized fraud !
Now , about taking a deep breath and enjoying life , do you have something to propose because after been on the road , i guess and hope that you found paradise , to a B1B2 with 330 , 340 , 767 , 747 , 744 , 777 ?
ho ! i was forgotten , i got some good memories from hell with Brits , South Africans , Canadians , Malaysians , Danish , Swiss , NewZealanders , etc ...
Cheers Mate.

[MATMAX]

sorry Whissper , others and mods , now back to the thread ...

[whissper]

My interest is that while the maintenance training industry is talking about a lack of engineers, from comments here it would seem that this is not necessarily the case.

Time to fess up as a I am student of the training industry (done all Part 66 exams for B1, B2 except air legislation) but the trying to find an opening has proved impossible.

My bigger concern is that the school I went through is going to churn out some 200-250 people in Australia this year alone. Qantas will take about 14-16 from Queensland, VB might take a few, J* might take one or two, Etihad might take 12-20 (depends on how the integration of prior apprentices goes) and a handful of the employers might take 20. That still leaves an awful lot of students without jobs. At that is just out of this years current intake. Those still not working from last year (and previous years) means there are a lot of people wanting to get into the industry however there doesn't seem to be the demand to meet supply.

What apprenticeships there are are fiercely fought for as results play little to no part in getting an interview (let alone a job). I should know as despite topping my class I cannot get an interview and cannot find a starting position.

[Alber Ratman]

You answered your own question. Apart from newer types coming into service that require far less line maintenance or reduced down time in base, the reduction of capacity (lots of jets in storage now) due to the world recession means there is NOT a lack of engineers. Yet the 147 colleges will continue to pull in all the bright eyed youngester with the promise that they can be LAEs two years post finishing their courses..

My company has not employed a PART 66 student for a couple of years.. It does have 40 apprenticies though!:D

[Hasherucf]

There is a lack of engineers in Australian GA .

[simonchowder]

Glad to hear that alber, i think companies are now well aware the average college trained "engineer" is a complete waste of time in the real world, and whats needed are guys who can actually get out the spanners and do the job, however its a damn shame for the guys the colleges are hoodwinking

[MATMAX]

Hasherucf,
I am interested by Australia ...
Any contacts to send CV and EASA License ?
Merci.

[WOTME?]

Eagleskinner & I are from the same era,I was trained in the RAF,joining in 1970.The main difference from what I can see between todays freshly trained mechs/engs/techs is that in the old days you got the experience then tried for your licence.These days it's the opposite.

[Jugs08]

I was speaking to an engineering yesterday based in Standsted for Inflight Limited...he haat his firm is cutting 50% of its workforce and others are to follow suit. The recession is hitting harder this year becuase people had paid for their holidays in advance prioir to the recession.

[whissper]

From my understanding, this is the "preferred" way of doing it (at least with the major airlines - GA still doesn't understand CAO100.66). That is finish all the exams up front and then go out to get some real hands on experience. I would have thought a dedication to completing the exams would have been preferred by industry. Employers don't have to release them for blocks of classroom time and consequently gain increase productivity.

Qantas in Queensland will ONLY recruit this way (and then only through a well known college). I expect the other major airlines are similar (or will be soon). Then again it was that their instigation that said college was formed.

The current mess of examinations (CAR31 and Part 147/CAO100.66) means I have passed done the "wrong" exams. Irrespective of both CASA and college views I should have done CAR31 exams (but @$100/each I don't have a spare 4K to do them.)

[whissper]

I think even the regulators (CAA, CASA) are also to blame as they are encouraging people to study via the new route.

[Blacksheep]

I was trained in the RAF,joining in 1970.......in the old days you got the experience then tried for your licenceAh, good old RAF training.

In the very old days we joined from school, spent three years sitting in RAF Halton classrooms and on the training airfield. Only after we had done all the theory and passed all the exams were we allowed out into the real world to "get some in" before we became certifying Aircraft Fitters as NCOs. Civilian apprenticeships were pretty similar, but of course in those days licences were different. There was no basic licence, you did your work sheets, sat the papers and had a three hour oral on the type you were applying for.

[Hasherucf]

GA still doesn't understand CAO100.66 Oh we understand it but just see it as a money making idea aimed at distancing CASA from any responsibility.

Whissper my suggestion is find a GA company that will take you on as an AME, so you are on a real wage, then gain your experience and during that time sit your CASA exams. You still need 4 years in the industry to apply for a license. If you find a good company they will pay your way thru the exams (if you pass). Maybe by that time GA might understand it better but for now there are a lot of gaps in its implementation

4k is a bit expensive , you only need 1.3k for a basic license

MATMAX I have no idea about EASA contacts.

[MATMAX]

Hasherucf,
I am not looking for EASA contacts but contacts to send my docs ...
I am B1+B2 unlimited with 330 , 340 , 767 , 747 , 744 and 777 ...
Thanks in advance.

[Bidalot]

At Madmachin... I totally agree with Ludlow. You better get a life and stop jumping on every thread to bash EK.
my problems with them are not fixed because they do not want to fix it !
FYI , they make me loose a lot of money and offered everything i have left to some VPs and "charity" and they asked me to pay my "dues" !!!
Thats a very well organized fraud
Probably right but when making a runner after receiving qualifications on their costs... guess every airline would do so and have the right to do.
Ah, and YES we do know where LFBO is, in and out several times !
Take it easy !

[MATMAX]

Mr Bidalot , le pot d'echappement ,

About what i said : I am totally right.
"but when making a runner after receiving qualifications on their costs" , you are wrong , i got already all my types before joining ... Mate , don't you think that it is better to say nothing when you do not know ...?
FYI , i am trying to take it easy but even after i have paid what they call my "dues" , they are still creating problems ... thats the reason why i am bashing on them ...
They have lost a lot of good guys , and they will loose some more , i am just explaining here the way they are acting with people only to "protect" their business and that they are treating people as slaves ...it is also to avoid others to do the same mistake except if you like to hurt yourself ...be careful of the Stockholm syndrome.
Salut.

[Bidalot]

did see you finally deleted your self created additional user and the " muzzle " comments...nice to see that you are on a good way to get over it and to recover!
Now as you are on a good way we both gonna work on the query not to turn every thread into your own job souk, ok ? Believe me, one day you will return back to normal with a little aid, YES WE CAN !

[MATMAX]

hihihi Mr Bidalot , you are so funny or maybe you are under a camel since too long , is it so sunny under a camel or maybe something else burnt your brain ?
Now as your english does not look so good , may i suggest you to send me some pm in French and not to disturb this thread with all your cr@p .
Back to the thread.

[muduckace]

The business is upside down as a result of the lack of continuity of thought in our global craft. Industry seeks the easy to manipulate people that find refuge in bashing our brethren. Please contribute positively only.

[J52]

I entered the marvellous world of aircraft engineering by joining the RNZAF shortly before my 17th birthday. I knew nothing about aircraft and it was the only escape route available to me from a small town with little future. They trained me and following completion of my courses, practical experience and passing my NZCE (Aero) I was then thrust into the real world of supervising maintenance work as a corporal.

When I was 20 they put me onto their Improved Maintenance Programme where I learnt to apply MSG2 analytical techniques and as part of an incredible team rewrote the servicing schedules for one of their aircraft. I was sent to McDonnell Douglas, Pratt & Whitney and the USN to compare notes with what we were doing with our aircraft maintenance, compared to what they were doing with theirs. I learnt about maintenance scheduling and critical path planning so that the new maintenance schedules could be phased into the fleet.

I left the RNZAF when I was 24 and worked part time at night in the civilian industry at the local airport servicing an emerging airline's planes and obtained my LAME when I was 25 (which I found to be extremely difficult but passed first time).

By the time I was 26 I was no longer in the aviation industry and was working in the construction industry. With the world at my feet what made me leap out of an industry that was so difficult to get into in the first place and remains so difficult to enter and become qualified in now?

MONEY. Thank goodness I was smart enough (mature enough?) to realise that way back then 30 years ago. While I have missed the technical challenge of servicing aircraft I have found that other careers are just as viable, equally as challenging and almost as enjoyable.

So before all you bright eyed youths leap into a low paying job where airlines will mercilessly exploit your lack of pragmatism with the prospect of obtaining a qualification that is mostly useless outside of the aviation industry, think carefully if you still want to be topping up oil, kicking tyres and checking for cracks 30 years from now. Very few of you will get a career fulfilling job of any type and even fewer will make it into management.

My only regret is to see that what the RNZAF provided me all those years ago seems to be sadly no longer available today.

[TURIN]

A very erudite post J52.

Except this bit...

think carefully if you still want to be topping up oil, kicking tyres and checking for cracks 30 years from now. Very few of you will get a career fulfilling job of any type and even fewer will make it into management.


Most of us find "topping up oil, kicking tyres and checking for cracks" quite fulfilling enough and have no intention of applying for a management position. :ok:

You're spot on about the money though. :{

[glad rag]

Some excellent posts there gents.

[Rigga]

I too struggled to get away from being a printing apprentice in a small town in the UK. I'd failed to qualify for BOAC, BEA and even BMI. So I turned to the least qualification of all - the RAF!
I eventually joined as an airfame mechanic and passed into the world of helicopters straight from training, where I thoroughly enjoyed the work both on the Line and Scheduled maintenance, learning from all the "old Folk" who were keen to show me what to do.
I eventually got my Fitters Course and spent what seemed like a lifetime in Halton's halls of terror and boredom, culminating in my release to Buccaneers...

I spent 24 years in that mob - eventually leaving (with several BCAR LWTR's under my belt) to move straight into the world of civil aviation and their QA systems.
I then started learning more and more of the "new" fields of maintenance that I hadn't encountered in the RAF - Brilliant! I learned loads of new stuff from new "old Folk" who were again so keen to show me what they knew.
Now I'm a QA Manager and I'm the old Folk.. but I haven't stopped learning yet.
And I still love the job, but I don't kick tyres or stand in the cold and wet.