Crash at Brum

[exeng]

From Sky News a report that a 'Challenger' has crashed on take-off from BHX.


Regards
Exeng

[VIKING9]

I can't confirm the type, but there were 3 crew and 2 pax onboard. Hope all ok.....

[rentaghost]

Was a Challenger 604 routing BHX-BGR.

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: rentaghost ]</p>

[DROGNA]

Challenger 604, I have got the reg but I don't think it would be prudent to post it just yet. Lets hope all is well, a sad start to the year.

[Wedge]

Unfortunately sounds like all are not OK. A/C is on fire near the runway and radio report suggests people have been killed.

Obviously causing severe disruption this afternoon @ BHX

[Kalium Chloride]

Is BHX closed?

[DROGNA]

Good move Rentaghost, thank you for your prompt repsonse. Very sad news.

[merronys]

From the Beeb...

Four people are feared dead after a private jet crashed while taking off from Birmingham International Airport.
One other person remains unaccounted for, according to West Midlands Fire Service.

Three crew and two passengers are understood to have been on board the aircraft, a nine-seater Challenger.

Initial reports say the plane clipped its wings on take-off.

A full-scale emergency response is now under way on runway 15 at the airport.

Emergency crews were alerted to the incident at 1210, a fire service spokesman added.

More soon.

[rentaghost]

Yes BHX is closed.

[markbingo]

4 people confirmed dead, and the airport is closed.

1 other person unaccounted for at this time.

[Quidditch Captain]

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_1742000/1742404.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_1742000/1742404.stm</a>

Condolences to the families of those who lost their lives

[DROGNA]

I see the BBC are reporting that the aircraft was operated by "Canadair" - Sharp as ever! Why do they always feel obliged to print things before they check the facts out?? Pure Muppettry.

[newswatcher]

Sadly, BBC now confirm 5 fatalities.

[what_the_hell_was_that?]

Before anyone asks what the weather was like :

EGBB 041220Z 14006KT 7000 BKN008 M02/M03 Q1026

[CaptX]

DROGNA
Stop messing about and post the Reg. please. Any accident is very sad but you might help put the minds of those of us who have mates who drive 604's at rest. If you've got information then please post it, that's what pprune is for. I'm off to TFS in a minute and don't want to spend the next few hours wondering.

[Curious Pax]

Aircraft reported as N90AG, a Challenger 604 c/n 5414 registered to Fleet National Bank at Atlanta-Peachtree on 30/12/99. Condolences to the families involved.

[The Guvnor]

The information I have is N90AG.

Commiserations to all involved.

[LGW Vulture]

Very sad news indeed.

Anyone know whether commercial or private, operator etc?

Ownership details are vague!

Another dark day...

[markbingo]

Witness states "One of it's wings clipped the runway on takeoff"

Could this suggest loss of horizontal control at rotation ?

Very safe planes these, but have been known to suffer uncommanded roll on a couple of occasions.

We shall see in time.

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: markbingo ]</p>

[Bright-Ling]

Terrible news.

For those interested, this is the aircraft at BHX in Jan 2001.

<a href="http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=133421" target="_blank">N90AG</a>

As said earlier, a sad day.

DROGNA, I understand you not wanting to put the details up on here of the aircraft but as CaptX said, it would alleviate any further grief over worries of friends who fly the type. Thankyou Curious Pax.

[ 05 January 2002: Message edited by: Bright-Ling ]</p>

[DROGNA]

Maybe I should've just kept quiet, my intention was to show that the information was availbale but maybe we should wait for an official statement.

However, I find it a little insensitive to be posting information of that nature less than 20 minutes after the incident occured - long before the next of Kin have been informed and even before anything has been confirmed officially. Call me old fashioned if you will.

[Bright-Ling]

DROGNA - no offence meant!

I kinda agree, but I know people who were flying that type today.

Unfortunately, the BBC already have a fairly close up pic of it in pieces as is the want of the press. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[halwise]

Sky reports the passengers on board the Challenger
were the President and Vice President of the Agco Corporation, Duluth Georgia. Better known by some
as the holding company of Massey Ferguson.

Commiserations of course to all concerned.

[Big Tudor]

There but for the grace of God.....

Why oh why do the media feel such compulsion to display pics of these incidents so quickly. The NOK could barely have been informed (if at all) before the wreckage was displayed for all the world to see. They claim "it is in the public interest". I'm sorry, but if this is the case then the majority of the worlds population are ghouls and morons.

[Thirteen-Twelve]

Very sad indeed. I was at BHX today and witnessed the crash after the initial explosive noise. It APPEARED that the airport fire tenders were slow in responding and in fact an Ops Land Rover reached the crash site first and when the airport fire tenders arrived they SEEMED to wait before making an attempt to put out the fire. I suppose the impact would have been fatal (aircraft was claimed to have cartwheeled (local paper) and final resting position of the main fusalage was inverted. Perhaps further speculation would be inappropriate. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

*** A post by Jet set Sparky has put my mind to rest about my tentative observations in respect of the crash crew response for which I thank him *** Also I note that Jet set Sparky recognised the intent and purpose of my use of upper case in the original post which I have not edited***

[ 08 January 2002: Message edited by: Thirteen-Twelve ]</p>

[DROGNA]

Big Tudor - My thoughts exactly!

[Kalium Chloride]

Can we start acting as professional pilots and stop turning this sad event into another chance to stand on our soap-boxes and bash the media? If you've ever looked for an image in the paper, on the web or on the TV following an accident -- even in your position as a justifiably-interested flight crew member -- then you're standing squarely in a glass house and hefting a pretty big stone, IMHO.

[Kalium Chloride]

...you might have noticed it wasn't the "media" which was gaily giving out the reg. of the jet on this forum before those poor b******s' bodies were even cold.

[DeeTee]

13-12. Not sure where you were standing mate, but we had just pushed back off stand. I never saw the actual crash as I was doing the after-starts, but saw the aircraft explode. I can assure my fellow aviators that the BHX firecrews were excellent. The first tender was on site within seconds, with the second one there 10 seconds or so later.

I think they did an excellent job and can levvy no criticism at them at all. It is the first a/c accident I have ever seen first hand and it was upsetting for everyone.

My condolences go to the families of all those affected.

[Thirteen-Twelve]

Dee Tee,

It was the first crash I had seen and perhaps it seemed like a long time before the fire tenders arrived, rather than actually being a long time, hence my capital letters though one news site reported the response as being a minute. Maybe it was a case of - time standing still and feeling helpless about it. The Ops Landrover was definitely there first though. It was all very sad and upsetting. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[OzPax1]

I used to work at BHX for one of the handling agents. The OPS Guys/Gals at BHX are some of the most switched on idividuals i have met and it does not surprise me in the least that they were on the scene first. There is almost always one OP'S landrover patroling the apron & taxiways (or almost always seemed like it!), so it is likely that they were the closest to the event then the fire service!

A sad day. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[slingsby]

Sad photo taken on Jan02 at BHX available on airliners.net. Just use N90AG as the search criteria, nothing else.

Another sad day for aviation. My condolences to all.

[HomerSimpson]

Another sad day for aviation. My thoughts are with the familes of the passengers and crew.

Regards,
Homer

[direct chase]

13-12
The fire engines were on scene and fire out within two mins of call.

Ops Land rover was there first, because he was on "patrol" on the eastern side.

A tragic accident and a very sad day that I will not forget for a long time.

[Wedge]

Have to agree with Kalium, for once it would be nice to see a thread where people don't immediately jump on every technical mistake the media makes. They are not aviation experts, they are journalists doing their job. I don't think anyone here would like it if they were experts. They have a job to report the news and they do it, they are laymen reporting to a layman public so don't expect them to get everything right. Furthermore speculation is part of every breaking news item whether lives have been lost or not. The consumer (including all of us) wants 24 hour visual news and that is the service the media provides.

And, I don't see why as some seem to think aviation should be exempted by the media for showing close-up scenes of accident sites. The accident happened and part of the reporting is viewing the scene, I don't think this is ghoulish or moronic. Anyway, if god forbid someone close to me was lost in an air crash I would want to see the scene on the TV as soon as I could.

I am sure those who complained about the close ups do not avert their eyes when other disasters are reported on the TV news, so why should aviation be any different?

Sorry to divert this sad thread off the point but I felt the above points needed to be made.

Condolences to the families.

[Man-on-the-fence]

The BBC have chosen to show pictures from todays tragic events on a special "crash pictures" page on their website.

In my view this is appalling and unacceptable. I have written to complain.

My deapest sympathies go to all those affected by todays events.

[gawain]

What are you people thinking of, promulgating the reg and ownership details before next of kin have been informed. I sympathise if you had a friend who MIGHT have been involved and therefore YOU are obviously worried but think of the poor families of those who ARE involved. I dispair of our profession and society.

[t'aint natural]

Wedge: I'm afraid you are entirely wrong. The job of the media is to profit by pandering to the worst, most prurient instincts of the public. The media has no other agenda. The notion that they inform or educate is misplaced.
The events following September 11th have shown the media up as never before. Every newspaper, every radio station, every TV news broadcast has dished up an endless stream of talking heads, "experts" who have painted frightening pictures of what was about to happen. Not one jot of this Niagara of speculation has come to pass. I do not exclude the BBC from this blanket condemnation - in fact, they have been among the worst offenders.
When news editors hear of a crash at Birmingham, as they did today, their hearts leap with joy at the prospect of a grisly event to brighten up a dull day and shift some papers.

[rightstuffer]

Too many handwringers on the go again. Lets face it, technology allows us to get the information very quickly now, so why not publish when y ou find out. If/when I go out in a pile of aluminium and avgas, I won't mind the BBC or anyone else pushing out pictures. When I got home tonite, wife said 'accident at Birmingham...'. My first action was to dial into PPRUNE for the informed speculation. That's what PPRUNE is for. Anyway, my NOK can't work a computer.... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[M.Mouse]

With all due respect to those lost in this accident I have to agree with the t'aint natural.

I have now reached the stage where I do not bother to watch so called 'breaking news' on television because of the endless speculation, misinformation and plain ghoulishnes. CNN is perhaps the worst with multiple pictures, talking heads and scrolling headlines all on one screen but the British channels are quickly emulating. The September 11th tragedy showed television news at its plain worst.

And to Wedge I would say that it is arguable that instant continuous and, by its very nature, generally inaccurate and crass reporting as a story develops is what the public wants. I don't.

Why the headlong rush to know everything instantly? This thread is also a sad example of wanting to be first to publish something, indeed almost anything, before anybody else. It has already contained quite unnecessary and worthless speculation by markbingo.

If it is felt absolutely necessary to gain an accurate report of the immediate events I am sure the better newspapers will have sufficient coverage tomorrow.

[Niaga Dessip]

Wedge:
I agree with you on this one. I do understand why many people get upset as sometimes journalists get it wrong, go over the top or whatever; but that is what we humans do. I have worked with a few journalists and have met a few more. They are no more or no less professional or competent in their own field than the selection of people I know in aviation.

Sad day, indeed.
ND

[Pen it off!]

Kalium,

What a sensetive and upstanding proffesional you are. Perhaps some of the heartless ones on here would not be so quick to post if it was someone they knew.

All the best.

The Pen is mightier than the Sword
<img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[avt100]

I did find the latest news at <a href="http://luchtvaart.pagina.nl" target="_blank">the latest aviation news</a>

"
Bombardier says 'cooperating fully' with Birmingham crash investigators
MONTREAL (AFX) - Bombardier Inc said it is "cooperating fully" with UK and US accident investigators looking into today's crash of a Bombardier Canadair 604 aircraft at Birmingham International Airport.

The company said in a statement the plane entered service in autumn 1999 and was being operated by EPPS Aviation, based in the US.

Citing local authorities, Bombardier said two passengers and three crew died in the accident. "

Keep informed, it will be updated every 5 minutes.

[Airbubba]

Here's more on the people onboard:

<a href="http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/business/0104agco.html" target="_blank">http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/business/0104agco.html</a>

[hobie]

quote .....

"you can please "some of the people" all of the time ..... you can please "all of the people" some of the time .... etc etc" ......

its so true, so as far as I'm concerned, just give the people a choice ...... there's not a lot of effort involved in "powering down" a TV .....

as for media accuracy, I remember getting mad every time our local television station used "file" film of 747's when reporting on our national airline, despite the fleet having been converted to "330's" years before ...... mind you, the 74's always looked much nicer !!!!

[blue up]

Diverging left of track, I know, but..
Our ops dept didn't pass on the info about BHX being closed, despite us not even leaving the crew room before the outbound sector. About 150 miles from home, fog-outs aplenty, we contacted ops to tell them we'd go to Brum as a diversion. Imagine my suprise! Volmet still giving Brum weather and no selcal message. Not even a notam or phonecall downroute. 10 hours+ later and we managed to scrape (+40 feet and +50m RVR) in at home.
Only at times like this that we find the failings of our systems. I intend making noise about this. Like Sept 11, lets find the lessons behind the story and try to make our lives safer as a result.

My thoughts are with the families.
Blue

[Peter Skellan]

I was also using Brum as a planned divert yesterday when it was closed. Why was there no mention on the various Volmets?

A quite puzzling crash. I hope it wasn't an uncommanded roll situation. All our nightmares.

PS

[Ransman]

Don't know about the volmets, but it was on the atis that the apt was closed, and the next update would be Sat, 12:00hrs. This was being broadcast Fri, 15:30 hrs

[LTN man]

Looks like a similar accident happened just over a year ago involving this type of aircraft.

Accident occurred Tuesday, October 10, 2000 at WICHITA, KS
Aircraft:Canadair CL600-2B16, registration: CFTBZ
Injuries: 2 Fatal, 1 Serious.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On October 10, 2000, at 1452 central daylight time, a Canadair Challenger 600-2B16, C-FTBZ, operated by Bombardier Incorporated, was destroyed on impact with terrain and an airport perimeter fence during initial climb from runway 19 (10,300 feet by 150 feet, dry concrete) at the Wichita Mid-Continent Airport, Wichita, Kansas. The airplane came to rest on a two-lane north-south road located along the western perimeter of the airport. The 14 CFR Part 91 test flight was not operating on a flight plan. The test flight was a Civil Aeronautics Administration flight evaluation of stick force per 'g' of the airplane as per Joint Aviation Requirement 25.143(f). The pilot and flight test engineer were fatally injured. The copilot sustained serious injuries. The flight was originating at the time of the accident.

A witness reported the following, "I looked out the right side of my vehicle, and saw an airplane (flying south), flying sideways about 6-10 ft. off of the ground. I then saw the aircraft level out, and I thought that everything was OK. I slowed down and was watching it and it tilted sideways again (right wing toward the ground). I then saw the right wing of the aircraft start to plow into the ground. I was stopped and watching the aircraft. The wing was in the ground and I saw the nose of the aircraft hit the ground, and the craft started flipping..."

[upperecam]

A very tragic and sad accident. Does anyone have information as to preceding departure traffic vis a vis possible decaying wake vortices? Many of us have known near ground encounters, my worst being during flare in the A321. Not that small an a/c yet still vunerable.
My heartfelt condolences to all affected by this seemingly puzzling and unusual mishap.

[PPIMan]

I think enough has been said now - time to close this thread?

[Huck]

The accident airplane in Wichita was a highly modified testbed with experimental controls.

[Siddique]

Looks a bit cold on the ATIS any one deiced lately?

[sharpshot]

Primarily I would like to say how dignified my colleaugues have been over the past 30 or so hours. Some have had visions they never wished for and others have experienced emotions never before felt. They know who they all are.

I find some of the speculation and innuendo disheartening. Are you aviators not the first to condemn Press speculation, yet you too indulge.

Wait and see. And then let us all learn.

[knows]

Such a sad event.
It's good to see that some PPrune contributors are refraining from the horrible ill informed speculation we normally see here!

Just two questions though...
(a) Why do the press allocate two sides of paper to profiles on the two pax and (in the same article) not even mention the three crew?

(b) At a time when airlines are fighting for their very survival, surely the airport could have opened the runway (not for public transport) for say a predetermined and published 30 minutes today. This would have allowed BHX based operators to at least ferry empty aircraft out of BHX and begin ops elsewhere (MAN EMA etc).

[MarkD]

The wake from an empty aircraft would have impeded debris collection for AAIB surely?

[411A]

Hey there PPIMan, are YOU the PPRuNe police or what? This is a RUMOUR network....what is it you do not understand?

[Avman]

Right on 411A!

PPIMan, if you don't like it then don't click on to this thread. Same goes for all you do goody moaners. When something in aviation happens, as an aviation professional, I immediately want to know who, where and what - and for this I come here to PPRuNe. Sure, there will be some c r a p posted , but I know that I will also get some good gen too. It's a matter of sifting through the good and the bad. If I'm watching TV and I don't like what I see, I change channel or switch it off. Same goes for PPRuNe.

[Arkroyal]

blueup,

Good point. I guess VOLMET is just that, Met. If the airport was closed for met reasons volmet would tell you, so it would be a good idea to extend the service to other closures.

In fact, with modern comms, it shouldn't be too hard to put out grouped ATIS on a common freq.

[Fangio]

Speculation achieves nothing. Why not wait until the FDR and the CVR data has been analysed.
The press do get aviation accident reports wrong in their early editions. They are not experts, let's leave it to the AAIB.

[ROLLER STAMP]

Ltn.man 604 is a completely different aircraft than the 600 you mention.Not even the same engines.Having worked on 604 we experienced many problems with the thrust reversers,found these to be a weak spot on both 601& 604.I wonder if one of these may have come out on take off?.Have never heard of uncommanded input to pfcu,s on this aircraft.

[BobZyurUnkl]

LTM Man was correct, the aircraft involved in the Wichita crash was a 604 (fuel migration in the aux tank was suspected). The type CL-600-2B16 covers all the 600's 601's and the 604 is a "variant" of that.

My condolences to the families.

[Thirteen-Twelve]

IF the aircraft had not been de-iced could this have been a contributory factor? One report (could have been a local paper or an alleged witness)said the aircraft got airborne and then came back down. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Cobra]

RIP Tom, Rob, and Tim.

[Latte tester]

My condolances to the families and friends of the crew and passengers. LTN Man, how can you say this is similar to the ICT crash, obviously you don't know your head from your arse. Investigators take time to assess ALL facts before commenting, maybe you should do the same. The ICT crash was on a test bed aircraft configured in a certain manner for the planned test flight. I don't know how this 604 was loaded or any other fact other than people were killed so I make no comment.
Latte time

[Jetset Sparky]

...I haven't posted anything on pprune since before the 9000 member mark...but here goes,
Thirteen Twelve,i am glad you 'upper cased' the words 'APPEARED' & 'SEEMED' in your post otherwise some people may have got the wrong impression and may have thought your inferrence was that BHX fire service's response wasn't immeadiate and without professional application to the task.
The FACTS are that;
1)The fire station alarms & doors were activated 1 to 2 seconds post impact
2)The fire vehicles arrived at approx impact +1 minute
3)The perceived delay in applying the fire-fighting medium was,as you probably would agree 'one of those slow motion moments' but several things have to be considered -
a)a brief assessment of impact site prevailing wind etc for successful retardant application,vehicle /crew safety
b)fire crews would have to suit up in B.A kit
c)fire vehicles cannot charge up to the crash site and start dumping foam there and then as casualties may lie in the path of the vehicles - a route to the closest point that foam/water can be successfully applied must be found before final tender / crash site closure attempted .

In all reality this will have happened very quickly ,but as this tragedy unfolded time must have almost stood still...as many of my colleagues have testified to that fact

I do not want to start a tit-for-tat posting thing here but having read your initial post,i think it was ,to me at least,a little insensitive as many people ,Ops,police,fire service etc. will have been deeply affected by that terrible day,and knowing some read this forum, 'your opinion'(and everyone has a right to one) may have appeared to infer to some,that BHX fire service MAY not have operated at their utmost professional and without speedy efficiency,which would be totally incorrect and without factual basis.

What's it got to do with me,an aircraft technician? My father was i/c the second airport tender on scene ,his wife was the watchroom officer who witnessed the incident and raised the alarms....both deeply affected by what they saw.

My sympathies to all the victims and their families and to all ground staff involved on that tragic weekend

[Avman]

And, to support my previous posting, the above interesting and factual posting is a good example of why I turn to PPRuNe for information.

[Paterbrat]

Here here!

condolences to those involved.

[Thirteen-Twelve]

Jetset Sparky, thank you for your detailed posting which I have acknowledged by editing, by addition my additional post. Any time is a long time to watch an aircraft on fire and obviously time passed slowly for me at the time of the accident. I have no regrets about my original posting and did indeed use upper case for the reasons you surmised. As an aside there is seperate thread running about the time it took Birmingham to re-open and perhaps that too, requires a better informed person than myself to respond.