Jumpseat Question [Archive]

hongkongfooey

17th May 2010, 01:35

DDDOF, I think JS requests open when roster goes live, which is usually 2 days after roster released ( I think 15th for CX, 16th for KA )

Divide and conquer, the company do not have a monopoly on that one!!

I think Bograts system is fair, maybe even Darts, but what really pi55es me off is when your priority gets changed, especially close to date of travel. Do the :mad:s that do this realise people may actually be depending on the JS to get home, or at the very least, out of HK ?
Then there are the ones that are serial rejecters, don't think it goes un-noticed :=

routetuner

17th May 2010, 02:35

Yes serial rejecters are well noted-and for Dart and Dan this could be construed as intimidation of work colleagues- refer Vol. 1 for that one. Secondly the company could can stop the use of jumps if they are being used as an intimidation tool of work colleagues.

jed_thrust

17th May 2010, 05:21

:ok:

I agree very strongly with RootTuner:

Don't openly advertise the fact that non-AOA members get lower (lowest?) priority.

Nike.

old rope

17th May 2010, 08:13

HKF, As an FO you will never see a jumpseat request requiring your approval, not sure how the "don't think that doesn't go unnoticed" stirs your porridge.

744Cap

17th May 2010, 15:23

First week after roster comes out...

J1 - in order
a) family of operating crew
b) commuting pilots
c) pilots on leave

J2 and down -
Any other crew

I do hold off for about five days after roster release so people on trips or leave have time to submit. By the 22nd or so, I give seats away on first come, first serve, top available.

Gnadenburg

17th May 2010, 16:07

J1 for KA or CX pilots. First in, first serve. I have been assisted ( saved ) on so many occasions by CX Captains, that I try and reciprocate as much as I can.

But what's with your F/A's? You give them a J1 and find they have the same on a dozen other flights!

bogie30

18th May 2010, 01:48

Should it become obvious that an individual has selfishly block booked multiple Jumpseats then the DENIED selection is the only credible response. Commuting pilots are also regular offenders I might add.

hongkongfooey

18th May 2010, 02:44

Sorry to burst your bubble Old rope but it's a 2 crew operation these days, not like back in WW2 eh ?
Most of the guys I fly with would listen if the effo had an objection to a jump seat rider and most ask as a matter of course anyway.
And FWIW, probably a good chance I have approved/disapproved more JS's than you've had hot breakfasts, we did'nt all sit in the JS/RHS for 10 years in CX.

LongTimeInCX

18th May 2010, 04:56

Danbuster, tend to agree with you there.

I certainly do not rescind a jumpseat previously granted through the crew direct system, even to the extent that if my wife wanted to go somewhere with me:confused:, she would understand the principle involved in honouring that seat to the guy who may have made plans and be depending on being able to travel having been granted it.

Where I do check with the other crew, is the late notice request - often at dispatch or by the traffic staff on the aircraft, where the applicant may be an unknown/ random, in which case I ask for the views of the other crew. Seldom have I had negative feedback, but it's the courteous thing to do.

hongkongfooey

18th May 2010, 11:36

Not implying anything Dan, and as far as I'm concerned people who don't even give their own workmates a helping hand can rot in hell, let alone be late for a shift.
Longtime, nice to hear you don't rescind jumpseats, but it does happen, when you go from 1 to 3 or 4 it might as well be rescinded completely, and if you read my original post you will see I said that what really pi55es me off is changes after they have been granted.

Flying Clog

19th May 2010, 06:17

I regularly use the jumpseat system for both commuting and leave, but I have two questions...

1. How is the Captain able to see whether I'm an AOA member? (I am BTW)

2. How many jumpseats are actually available on the day? I usually travel on the B744, and have been kindly given the upper deck biz class seat when I needed it. But the Airbus/777? How does that work?

Confused...

Cheers :8

SloppyJoe

19th May 2010, 06:28

On the 340 the flt crew rest can become a seat for take off and landing, 330 never has 4 crew.

crwjerk

19th May 2010, 08:59

The days of F/O's being asked if they mind having a j/s pax , at least in CX, would have stopped when the computer application system began. Unless of course it's a last minute one on the day, and then the Captain has ALWAYS asked if i had any objections.........

Mouwaa

19th May 2010, 09:00

If you are, in fact, an AOA member you will know that there is a list of every pilot in the company on the AOA website which says if they are full members or are non-members.

That is how.

Flying Clog

19th May 2010, 10:13

OK, cheers. Seems a bit of a hassle the Captain checking the list on the AOA website against jumpseat requests for every flight. :}

Captain Dart

19th May 2010, 23:36

...not as much as the hassle of non-members compromising the bargaining position of the rest of their colleagues :suspect:.

Flying Clog

20th May 2010, 05:22

Fair enough. :ok:

hongkongpilot

20th May 2010, 06:45

Jump seat priority policy:

1. HKAOA members

2. DPA members

3. Cabin Crew

4. Engineering staff

5. Ground staff

Please be guided accordingly.

I also figure the cash they save by not paying union dues could buy them a full fare ticket. Thus the j/s goes to the union dues paying AOA member. :D

Just curious ! Do you guy check if the captain is an AOA member when you ask for J/S :rolleyes:?

Michael Hunt

21st May 2010, 06:50

Well said Hongkongpilot.
It seems to me that those most unwilling to offer a jumpseat to a fellow pilot on the grounds of union membership and those so repulsed at the thought of sharing the flight deck with someone who chooses to be a non-member would probably be the first to shelve their moral posturing for the twelve or so hours it takes to get home on the jumpseat of that same pilot who probably offered it without even thinking of such trivial B.S. and is probably unaware that this favour would not be returned.
At the end of the day who are the guys with the most moral credibility here?
The goal of securing 100 percent union membership is certainly not going to be achieved by people carrying on like juvenile jackasses.

Captain Boers

21st May 2010, 08:38

Well said Michael Hunt!

I despair at the small minded attitudes that pervade a section of contributors to these forums. I freely give J/S to those that ask - never question their membership of the AoA, secret squirrell club or their sexuality. They have their own reasons for whatever they do or are as I have mine.

This is not a 'holier than thou' forum. I do wish some of you would just grow up.

Now - back to the coffee shop. :ok:

Michael Hunt

22nd May 2010, 01:57

Hey Dan, would you request a jumpseat from a non AOA member?

BEKOL Magic

22nd May 2010, 03:11

Hey Dan, would you request a jumpseat from a non AOA member?

:D:D:D

Well played sir :ok:

It is beyond me how anyone could be so petty about helping a fellow crew member out. Grow up!

Captain Dart

22nd May 2010, 03:23

This is not a 'petty' matter, it's serious business.

I've said it once and I'll say it again: non-members jeopardise the bargaining position of the rest of their pilot colleagues as the Association leadership tries to at least maintain, if not improve, their contracts after management attacks that have been going on for nearly two decades.

And with a 70% (and climbing) HKAOA membership, the probability of having to request a jump seat from a non-member is reduced.

Flap10

22nd May 2010, 05:49

Captain Dart & Dan Buster,

Still waiting for an intelligent reply to hongkongpilot's question.

With your narrow minded views who would want to be in your airplane anyway!!!

744Cap

22nd May 2010, 16:03

I almost never post on this board but do read it with interest from time to time. Most of my replies have simply been to informational requests from either younger CX crew or outsiders with an honest curiosity about our operations.

This topic, though, is so absurd as to almost require an answer. To those who ask why give the JS to a non-AOA member, let me ask you a couple of thoughts/questions:

1. Who owns the airplane, and thus the JS? Is it our employer or the AOA? Last time I flew (18 hours or so ago), that bugger was screwed into the cabin floor just like the other 300+ seats. The JS is a courtesy CX allows us to offer to our fellow employees, nothing else. It is not a bargaining chip for you or the union.

2. You make your statements in a way that basically says only AOA members are full crew at CX. Really? How would you feel if all non-AOA members walked off the job tomorrow night at 11:00pm? Now before you say how incredibly wonderful that would be, keep in mind that a) you think your hours are bad now I can promise you you'll be flying 99.99 hours every month moving forward, and b) your profit share will be living somewhere outside obvlivion for the next 10 years. Let's not even think about what pay will be. You say 30% are non-members? Well, think of capital costs pretty much staying the same except you lose 700 salaries and revenue goes down by, what, 30-40%? Nice business plan guys.

I have been an AOA member almost since its beginning and yet the thought had honestly never occured to me in almost 9 years as a captain to even link the idea of membership with a JS request. Wow, you actually go look at the membership list to decide who to grant J1 to? Really? I sure to God hope you are wasting all this time sitting in a hotel room rather than when you're actually home! Geez.

DessertRat

22nd May 2010, 17:55

Hello 744Cap,

"The JS is a courtesy CX allows us to offer to our fellow employees, nothing else. It is not a bargaining chip for you or the union"

No, the JS is the last vestige of the professional standing we used to have as pilots. It is the ONLY thing we have remaining to offer our fellow professionals.

You have been a captain at CX since 2001 according to your post. So that means you must be one of the last A-scalers that joined in 1992ish or so?

Yet another one of the self-obsessed, vitally important men that confuse joining date with ability.

744Cap

23rd May 2010, 01:05

DR -

"Yet another one of the self-obsessed, vitally important men that confuse joining date with ability."

Excuse me? What in any post I have made on this site referred to DOJ as a criteria for anything? What statement have I made that would lead you to an acusation of self-obsession? I think you owe an apology, sir.

So now you want to add in DOJ as well as union membership as a qualification for the JS? If you're AOA, joined after 1994 and fit some other random criteria someone chooses, you get it! If you are not AOA but joined after 1994, maybe. DOJ prior to 1994 and non-AOA, uh-oh! I mean, get serious and at least act like a professional pilot.

You are wrong on the JS, by the way. First, every seat on the plane belongs to the company. We can negotiate for the right to use it for something other than a rest seat but the company is the only one that can say it can be used for commuting pilots or anyone else. CAD does not refer to a seat in the cabin for any use other than crew rest. You may not like that fact but your opinion is irrelevant.

Second, my professional standing as a pilot has absolutely nothing to do with something as minor as a jumpseat, and I don't believe any pilot in CX would or should see it any differently. We fly very expensive airplanes with hundreds of souls on board, land them safely in all kinds of mechanical and weather conditions, and collect a wage that provides for our families. I'm not sure how you judge yourself as a human being but do hope it has more meat to it than your ability to give away a seat to somebody.

I certainly appreciate it when someone uses the seat and is courteous enough to say thank you, but would say that's about all the thought I give to this issue. Is it a nice perk? Absolutely. I use it frequently and would say I give it away on over 90% of the sectors I fly. I wish we had JS priveleges like in the US but I knew we didn't when I signed the contract, so I don't complain about that fact.

Captain Dart

23rd May 2010, 08:11

I respect your views, 747Cap, but we have soft-soaped the non-HKAOA members for long enough; see my post #36 . The present reality is that jumpseats are available, under certain conditions, for captains to allocate as they see fit.

You mention commuting pilots. Some of these individuals are on Hong Kong A-scale and allowances, not paying tax in their home countries, extremely wealthy men by any standards, and are still too 'tight' to pay a few lousy bucks a month to the AOA to support their colleagues and attempt to maintain the contract that has been so good to them.

You mention jumpseating in the US. Would any of our North American Ppruners shed light on how easy it is to get a jump seat in the US if you are not in the union?

Flap10

23rd May 2010, 10:02

Some of these individuals are on Hong Kong A-scale and allowances, not paying tax in their home countries, extremely wealthy men by any standards, and are still too 'tight' to pay a few lousy bucks a month to the AOA to support their colleagues and attempt to maintain the contract that has been so good to them.

I like the way you automatically categorize every non-AOA individual as being too tight. Did you ever consider the possibility that the good majority left the AOA because they don't believe in what it stands for anymore. From past experience the most vocal AOA individuals were the ones to abandon their mates when the sh1t hit the fan, I suspect you would be no different.... but go on you can deny certain people the jumpseat if it makes you feel better.

Captain Dart

23rd May 2010, 11:56

Read my post again, Flaps, I used the word 'Some' (...of these individuals etc.), not 'every'. I concede that the persons I referred to represent the most extreme end of the freeloading spectrum.

I also agree that there are various other excuses being peddled on Pprune for not being a part of the Association apart from parsimony; these include perceived past injustices, apathy, being a management apologist or stooge, and 'not believing what it stands for anymore'. You also have an issue with vocal individuals abandoning their mates; I've seen this myself but it's still a poor excuse to justify your own actions.

So, what do you stand for? Were you part of 'the good majority that left the AOA...'? I look forward to hearing from you regarding a credible alternative, which would include uniting over 2,000 pilots into a new professional group; or maybe you would like to negotiate with the DFO directly on your own behalf. I understand that the present incumbent has an open door policy.

Like a lot of things in life, sonny, the AOA has, and has had, its problems but for most of us it's the only game in town. Those working hard on our behalf need all the support we can give them, and if it includes putting just a little pressure on non-members, you can sue me.

Flap10

23rd May 2010, 13:22

Just shows how uninformed you really are!

I won't need to negotiate anything. I will never ever sign a new CoS and I will ultimately be better off than your negotiated terms.

Negotiations imply reaching an agreement that is fair, balanced, and beneficial to both parties. Since when has there an agreement been reached between the company and the AOA that's been beneficial to its members. The company has always used the AOA to get what it wants, under the pretence of "negotiations", maybe not after the first round, but certainly by the second round. If not for the AOA how else would you be able to sell sub-standard agreements to the pilot body. What's even more pathetic is how the members then justify the existence of the AOA and assume there is no way we could have done better without the help of the AOA.

the AOA has, and has had, its problems but for most of us it's the only game in town.Yeah tell that to the brave few who started the CPU and won a landmark lawsuit in Hong Kong.

Close down this useless association and open another one with paid professionals, then you might interest many in re-joining.

If you deny non-AOA members the jumpseat and have the balls to say no to their face and ultimately face a D&G, then you have my respect, otherwise you are the epitome of what is wrong with many of the AOA members...lets be militant as long as it doesn't jeopardize my personal needs or employment.

Numero Crunchero

23rd May 2010, 17:02

I read this thread as I was curious as to how my colleagues release jumpseats. It made me realise I am obviously a little 'simple' in my approach.

FWIW, here is my approach:
Commuters/family members of the crew get highest priority.
Cabin crew next, then ground staff third. Why that order? Because I have noticed over the years that ground staff generally don't fly on the flights they asked the jumpseat for. Commuters do 90% of the time, cabin crew over 50% of the time. I tend to give everyone a few days to bid after the roster is released just in case they are flying or out of computer contact. If I have two commuters then I would email them and ask them if one has an alternative - if all else fails, I will give them out based on seniority. My only pet hate, which few pilots do, is people holding J1 on multiple flights. I remember once when I was on the tupperware aircraft checking other flights and finding out that a particular jumpseater(not a pilot) had j1 out of Syd and Mel on 4 different flights! The new system helps, to some extent, in identifying duplicate requests. With so many cathay staff commuting it pays to only have jumpseats on the flight you actually 'need', not every possible flight you might want!

In my previous job I was told that there were three subjects you should never talk about at dinner- sex, politics or religion. Well, I think union membership is like religion - I might want you to agree to my way of thinking but it is your right to think differently. My god, if your worth as a human being comes down to being a member of an Association in Hong kong then we really are no better than the hitler youth or communist party!

If you can't give a jumpseat to a non-member, for god's sake don't let your kids play with them at school. And whatever you do, make sure you ensure there is the coldest possible environment in the cockpit - who cares if you have an accident, just as long as you have ostracised the pilot for being a non-member!

So, like I said, commuters/family first, cabin crew second, ground staff third. Sorry if that offends anyone but that's how I do it!

I would also ask to do what I strive to do(since I am a regular commuter). If you are not going to use the jumpseat, advise as soon as possible - cancel with c/c and if you get the chance and it is short notice, email the CN just in case there are other jumpseaters. Remember J3/j4 are useless on an Aussie flight so knowing that j1 or j2 is now free can help someone else with their travel plans since they will move up the jumpseat priority!

superfrozo

24th May 2010, 00:47

Interesting take on it NC, but I have to ask, why the priority for commuters? Is that not unlike the arbitrary AOA/non-AOA distinction??

Quite frankly, I don't see why, for example, a HK-based guy trying to return to HK from SYD after leave is less JS-worthy than SYD commuter who is trying to get to work. But by your "priority" allocation, the commuter trumps the leave returnee. I find this idea quite strange.

(Lest I be accused of picking on your system, yours is not the only "JS priority allocation system" I have heard of that favours commuters.)

I guess my point is this: I see NO reason as to why commuters are seen as warranting preference over non-commuters. This represents some fairly skewed logic in my humble opinion. One could even argue that the opposite is warranted: i.e. the commuter has chosen this rather deleterious lifestyle choice, and it should be him/her disadvantaged as opposed to those who are working within the "spirit" of the HK-based roster system.
(How many times have you arrived at despatch to have a commuter ask "Can I rest 1st/2nd, I need to rest at time X due to my commute!?")

Thankfully, I have 18+ years to command before I have to worry about such ethically complex questions. Honestly, it's enough to make a man commute!!

:8

Any Captains trying to work out who I am to decide whether I should get JS1 or not: I'm a 49er supporting, CPU & AOA member who regularly commutes with his 38DD 19 year-old promiscuous Brazilian bi-sexual swinger-wife who has a thing for Captains that give her husband J1. :ok:

jonathon68

24th May 2010, 01:57

One aspect I have noticed with Cabin Crew requesting my jump-seats, is the great rush of requests as soon as the system opens on 18th of the month.

These crew are requesting the j/s for their travel plans based on their published roster, while still at the same time waiting for all their roster swaps to be processed. When their swaps are done, they no longer need to travel on the days they applied for the j/s. If they then do not cancel the awarded j/s, the system remains clogged up with "stealth" j/s passengers who don't show up on the day.

I tend to ignore Cabin Crew j/s seat requests until about 25th of the month, and then favor the Crew who input their requests later (say on 23rd or 24th etc).

It would make life easier if there were more than 4 j/s slots. I think my record is about 25 applicants for a Manila flight! Only 1 of the 4 j/s passengers turned up, so the other seat went on seniority. :confused:

asianeagle

24th May 2010, 04:37

Any Captains trying to work out who I am to decide whether I should get JS1 or not: I'm a 49er supporting, CPU & AOA member who regularly commutes with his 38DD 19 year-old promiscuous Brazilian bi-sexual swinger-wife who has a thing for Captains that give her husband J1.

In that case, she has J1, J2 J3 & 4. Hope you get on......NOT!:E

744Cap

24th May 2010, 07:29

CD,

We'll simply have to agree to disagree on this one, I'm sure, but the "spirit of the law" concerning giving away the JS was probably not meant to include revenge. Personally, I wish it were much more controlled (a la some set of rules to follow) rather than being at the whim of each individual. Let the pilots even vote on what those rules are but at least we would know what the system was. As numerous people have pointed out on this thread, you have absolutely no idea when you go in and ask for a seat if you'll get it, what the criteria will be to determine that, etc.

To your question about the US, to the best of my knowledge the major US carriers simply do not have non-union pilots. I could be wrong on that but do not know of a non-union pilot at AA, DL, CO or UA. My brother is a pilot at DL and I know they are 100% union members. It is a very different culture than here in the fragrant harbour. Of course, every friend I have in US aviation works for a currently or at one time very recently bankrupt company. Might be why I don't complain about CX management quite as much as some. My paycheck has shown up every single month for 18 years now.

treboryelk

29th May 2010, 08:59

cool, at last a reason to join the AOA....i could get a jump-seat!

now where do i apply?

Hellenic aviator

29th May 2010, 23:15

To your question about the US, to the best of my knowledge the major US carriers simply do not have non-union pilots. I could be wrong on that but do not know of a non-union pilot at AA, DL, CO or UA. My brother is a pilot at DL and I know they are 100% union members. It is a very different culture than here in the fragrant harbour. Of course, every friend I have in US aviation works for a currently or at one time very recently bankrupt company. Might be why I don't complain about CX management quite as much as some. My paycheck has shown up every single month for 18 years now.

The reason why it is 100% union membership is because in the U.S., the pilot unions are 'closed shop'. There's isn't the choice like you have at CX.