Atlas transition from FE to FO

[Dutch74]

Atlas Pilots:

Years ago you're airline had the best program in the industry for PFE's who got their pilot ratings to transition to the left seat. Was wondering how this program has worked out and was wondering if there were any limitations for PFE's who do not have their ATP to fly the 744. Thanks for your time.

[blackbaron]

ATI, Emery, and Gemini had good ones too

[Po Boy]

The program is still in place, we currently have a few former FE's now transitioning to FO's in the school house as we speak. It's a great opportunity, but they go to the Classic first, and then can bid the 400 in time.:ok:

[muduckace]

Yeah, I worked with a few AMT's in the 90's who both went from flight mech to FE having 500-700 hrs PP time under their belts, flew as much as they could + 500 hrs FE time applied and made FO at ATP minimums. It worked out great for them.

I allways thought it unique for a private pilot to have his first commercial pilot job flying a 747 within a matter of a few years, the whole time making decent money.

[dumbdumb]

There IS a problem with this on the Atlas side . . . at least in my opinion. Here's the scenario. Let's say you were a F.E. for ten years then finally decide to move to the right seat. Well, guess what? Sure, you can do that all right but I'll bet ya don't know what happens to your seniority. Bueller?? Anyone??? You go to the BOTTOM of the F.O. list as the F.E. list is completely seprate. So you give up all that seniority for bidding. Tell me that's not a kick in the shorts.

Don't know what crewmember originally thought of this but talk about F'ing your buddy! Wow. You can imagine that cockpit. Sorry dude you're good enough to sit sideways but when it comes to touching the yoke you're not good enough. What a joke! Yes, I know some of you might start the debate of not enough experience. But if the check airman checks them out on the airplane then they're qualified. End of story.

At the majors a seniority number was a seniority number -- period. From what I understand . . .no, what i know is, it's the same way on the Polar side of the house -- at least for now.

[Fr8Dog]

dumbdumb
There IS a problem with this on the Atlas side . . . at least in my opinion. Here's the scenario. Let's say you were a F.E. for ten years then finally decide to move to the right seat. Well, guess what? Sure, you can do that all right but I'll bet ya don't know what happens to your seniority. Bueller?? Anyone??? You go to the BOTTOM of the F.O. list as the F.E. list is completely seprate. So you give up all that seniority for bidding. Tell me that's not a kick in the shorts.

Don't know what crewmember originally thought of this but talk about F'ing your buddy! Wow. You can imagine that cockpit. Sorry dude you're good enough to sit sideways but when it comes to touching the yoke you're not good enough. What a joke! Yes, I know some of you might start the debate of not enough experience. But if the check airman checks them out on the airplane then they're qualified. End of story.

At the majors a seniority number was a seniority number -- period. From what I understand . . .no, what i know is, it's the same way on the Polar side of the house -- at least for now.

Your screen name says it all, if you don't like it, you can always find a job somewhere else. If you had been at a MAJOR like you say, you would have been at the panel for 10 - 15 years before you saw the right seat anyway. Maybe in that time you might have gotten some experience in something other than a 152 or a Seneca. 98% of the FE upgrades at Atlas have had no PIC time in anything other than a light twin. Just because you pass a line check with a check airman does not mean you are ready to command an 800000+ lb jet around the world. Suffice it to say, your comment on experience alone proves my point.

FR8

[Deltabravowhiskey]

There IS a problem with this on the Atlas side . . . at least in my opinion. Here's the scenario. Let's say you were a F.E. for ten years then finally decide to move to the right seat. Well, guess what? Sure, you can do that all right but I'll bet ya don't know what happens to your seniority. Bueller?? Anyone??? You go to the BOTTOM of the F.O. list as the F.E. list is completely seprate. So you give up all that seniority for bidding. Tell me that's not a kick in the shorts.

Don't know what crewmember originally thought of this but talk about F'ing your buddy! Wow. You can imagine that cockpit. Sorry dude you're good enough to sit sideways but when it comes to touching the yoke you're not good enough. What a joke! Yes, I know some of you might start the debate of not enough experience. But if the check airman checks them out on the airplane then they're qualified. End of story.

At the majors a seniority number was a seniority number -- period. From what I understand . . .no, what i know is, it's the same way on the Polar side of the house -- at least for now.

To say that seniority alone provides the level of safety required to take on the responsibility of a PIC is a bit foolish and that remains true regardless of what seat you sit in.

[FirstStep]

The Atlas upgrade progran for PFE's has been a godsend for many, including myself. The increased job opportunities ( PFE's versus Type Rated 747 Pilots ) and front seat view has changed my life. The loss of DOH seniority regarding bidding truly sucks. I had to change equiptment twice to keep my base, where my DOH seniority would have allowed me to keep it. However, we do keep our DOH longevity regarding pay. And afterall, that is why I fly ($). For me, the benefits of the program FAR, FAR outweigh the downside. Atlas has bent over backward for more than a few PFE's, and should be recognised for their effort.
A very humble Captain. Fly safe.

[411A]

The Atlas upgrade progran for PFE's has been a godsend for many, including myself. The increased job opportunities ( PFE's versus Type Rated 747 Pilots ) and front seat view has changed my life. The loss of DOH seniority regarding bidding truly sucks. I had to change equiptment twice to keep my base, where my DOH seniority would have allowed me to keep it. However, we do keep our DOH longevity regarding pay. And afterall, that is why I fly ($). For me, the benefits of the program FAR, FAR outweigh the downside. Atlas has bent over backward for more than a few PFE's, and should be recognised for their effort.
A very humble Captain. Fly safe.



A perfectly respectful and reasonable reply.
At many overseas aircarriers, where the PFE ungraded to F/O, he went on the bottom of the F/O list.
Was this 'fair'?
Well, it certainly was to the long serving First Officers, that's for sure.
And, I didn't hear many complaints from the PFE's either...they retained a job.:}

And no, I did not go the PFE route, rather, directly into the LHS of a heavy jet in 1975.
I was fortunate, right place, right time.

[Fr8Dog]

DBW, First Step & 411A

Words of wisdom from true professional aviators! Renews my faith!

[411A]

Words of wisdom from true professional aviators! Renews my faith!

Thank you.
It is my opinion that long serving crew not be disadvantaged...provided however that other long serving crew are not cast aside, in the shuffle.

[747newguy]

Dumbdumb, You neglect to mention that pilots without a FE line number moved to the bottom of the FE seniority list if they decided to make the move to FE when they reached 60 (soon to be 65) This protected the seniority of the PFEs that joined Atlas with no intention of becoming pilots. Can you imagine how many pilots would have made the move to the FE seat if they could have retained their seniority when they reached 60? Maybe even you were one of the PFEs that benefited from this rule?

[Dutch74]

I hear ya about the seniority issue, good argument on both sides. I believe a fair compromise would be to let the FE's hold their seniority but they would not be eligible for Captain upgrade until they had 3-4000 hrs in the RT seat.

But why must they go to the classic first? Is it because they can't do IRO duty on the 744? I don't believe there is any other stipulation in the FAR's that require a ATP type other than IRO duty? Any enlightenment would be greatly appreciated.

[slowto280]

If there are 2 lists, there are 2 lists. Isn't that what was signed up for by all? I don't know; Teamsters, ALPA or in-house, but I would imagine rules are rules, agree with them or not.

Look at it this way, could be working or could have worked for a company that did not move from back seat to right seat.

As far as moving into the left seat, if you meet the company mins. and can do it, you should be given the chance (if union, union rules permitting), whether 12 months or 60 months in the right seat. :D

[ship's power]

. . . what i know is, it's the same way on the Polar side of the house -- at least for now. Polar selectively hand picked their FE's to -400 FO's when Polar retired their classic's a few years ago. Selection of all pp licensed Polar fe's was to have been made by committee, but decision actually made unilaterally by the (then) Chief Pilot. At that time as a Polar fe, I had held an ATP with a B-737 type rating (however only 300 hrs jet sic, the rest was old pp time). "Get a job somewhere, then get a few months of recency pilot experience, and reapply", the CP had told me (as if anyone could go anywhere and pick up an av job, or was carrying a Learjet in their back pocket). . . . . Perhaps I would have been better off at Atlas . . . Anyway, still on the street today with the rest of the 1,000 airline industry furloughed's. . . . . After 25 years in this beloved business, I must have proved to be too stupid.

[slowto280]

I understand (and agree though) with the 'selectively hand picked' part (still don't know if union, or if any 'rules' in place....), but with an ATP and 737 type, difficult to comprehend. Unfortunately, we have all seen how some forget how and where they started. Perhap's the case here? I guess 8, 10, 12 or 16 thousand hours FE time mean nothing. I feel your pain, ship........ If you fancy, give Midex in the UAE a ring.

[bigduke6]

"But why must they go to the classic first? Is it because they can't do IRO duty on the 744?"

Hard enough of a transition to go from C-152/172 to the Classic, where the former PFE already knows the systems, limitations, and most of the SOP's from reading the checklist over all those years, but still have to get the feel for actually FLYING the airplane. So why make life more difficult by adding the glass cockpit?

Plus Atlas training program on the -400 requires some jet time (2500 hours???) to get the CA type rating to be used as relief pilot, so PFE's would not qualify. A few (3?) FO's have been hired onto the -400 who do not meet this, but a lot would create scheduling problems. Most Classic flights are basic crew, so not an issue.

And do you really want the poor guy/gal to just get 1 or 2 landings a month on the -400, where they will never really get proficient? Hopefully, will get more hands-on time and cycles on the Classic.

[dumbdumb]

Reply by FR8: Your screen name says it all, if you don't like it, you can always find a job somewhere else. If you had been at a MAJOR like you say, you would have been at the panel for 10 - 15 years before you saw the right seat anyway. Maybe in that time you might have gotten some experience in something other than a 152 or a Seneca. 98% of the FE upgrades at Atlas have had no PIC time in anything other than a light twin. Just because you pass a line check with a check airman does not mean you are ready to command an 800000+ lb jet around the world. Suffice it to say, your comment on experience alone proves my point.

FR8

Maybe you need to borrow my screen name since you're showing some, no a lot of ignorance. For one, you can't find a quality job somewhere else as I don't know if you have noticed -- probably because you need to pull your head out of your posterior end -- but there have been a lot of furloughs lately. Don't forget the job losses as well from airlines going under. No reason to tell you where, as you should be able to figure that out by yourself.

I WAS at the Majors and saw firsthand how in a little over year folks were able to move from the F.E. seat to the right seat of a 727. Now, by no fault of my own, I'm on a furlough status. This was happening as recently as 2002 before the birds were sent to the dessert. Again, by all means please use my screen name.

There are a lot of guys/gals out there that had zero PIC time flying RJ's during an upgrade, flew turboprops, etc. How else do you get that PIC time? You gotta get in the seat don't ya?

Comment experience? Are you nucking futs???? Twenty three years in the industry, five type ratings to include the 737, 747, 747-400 and thousands of hours in the both seats.

How do you think you get experience? You sit in the seat and get it -- Period. Does that mean that a type rating gives you the "experience" to command a jet around the world as you put it? No. However, sitting in the right seat after sitting sidesaddle with a RIGHTFUL seniority number is an obvious yes. And before you assume, again, I did not sit in the F.E. seat. I only think it's wrong to put a different number on a person sitting behind you.

Something tells me that you're one of those "I AM CAPTAIN HERE ME ROAR TYPES" If you're in the left seat at all. But unlike yourself, I will not make any assumptions about you or your experience.

Again, please, by all means use my screen name. :)

Go ahead an respond you get the last word.

As for DeltaBravoWiskey -- no need to respond to your post as I already know your stance and your views as you're one of those that was on the bandwagon for the Teamsters. What a nice mess it is now with not enough money to pay bills and an assesment coming. Real smart on that one. Hope it worked out for you individually (which I'm sure it did) as you didn't show any team playing on that vote, either.

[FirstStep]

dumbdumb

What is your point?. Other than using this forum to rant ( you would not be alone, true ) you seem to have lost ME in what your point is?. Are you pissed off that as a pilot ( assuming with Atlas ) who transitioned from the FE seat you lost your DOH seniority, and now your furloughed?. Or because you can't hold a base you want, or mabye not the lines you want?. And you mention multiple type ratings, soooo, were you hired as an FE with all that heavy time???. And if you ARE on furlough, with that heavy time, look up, were hiring. I mean I thought we recalled all pilots already. Were even pulling some -200 out of the desert.
If I misunderstood your thread ( yes, I'm easily confused ), and you are a furloughed FE, you have to be kicking yourself (at least a little) in the ass for not getting upgraded ( sooner ). I mean, the whole industry has been retiring older airplanes with the 3rd guy for years now. Atlas has been proclaiming their retirement for +5 years now ( mabye a lot like crying Wolf ), so it cant be a suprise.
I do agree with you in the "experience" thread. How much you learn depends on willingness to learn and motivation, not just time in seat. I learned a lot watching all the mistakes the FO's made from the FE seat ( best seat in the house for a Critic ), and sure, when I was upgraded I demonstrated all those mistakes and more. Lots more.
Fly safe.

[dumbdumb]

First Step,

No, I'm employed. I'm on the Polar side of the fence.

My point is I think it's wrong to put the F.E.'s on a seperate seniority list. Nothing more. The other part of the rant was only to let the others know I am speaking from a little experience when they were challenging I was some kid sitting in school and spouting off.

Have a great Holiday weekend.

[Fr8Dog]

Dumbdumb, I was going to respond, but Firststep beat me to it, thanks again F.S. for being the professional that you are. We (At Atlas) have recalled all of the furloughed pilots, and have just hired 120 new pilots as well. Now that I see you are one our Polar brothers I understand a little better the frustration shown in your post. If you guy's had gotten on the bandwagon from day one, instead of letting Bob and Robin take you down the crimson path, it just maybe would have turned out differently for your pilot group. But that is all water under the bridge at this point. We have had a two-list system from day one here. It has been voted on twice to change it to a single list and was not. (By the way I voted for it and was hired here as an FO and would have lost about 20 numbers) The FE's that hired on here were completely aware of this when they signed their employment contract. The comment I made about getting a job elsewhere was supposed to be a bit of sarcasm.

FR8

[WhaleDriver]

Fr8Dog,
I think your "just hired 120 new pilots" is VERY inflated. I think they got the interview numbers up to 120 total (3 x 40) this week, but they are only hiring half of them. The second class of 10 new hires just started last week. Ten in a class, every three weeks. The talk is still of only 4 or 5, -400 classes, and one classic class.

I don't remember signing any "employment contract"?

[Fr8Dog]

WhaleDriver

I don't remember signing any "employment contract"?


When is the last time you were IN a cockpit as a flight crew member at Atlas?
About 5 years right!

FR8

[Fr8Dog]

WhaleDriver

I don't remember signing any "employment contract"?


I did, maybe they stopped by the time you hired on!

[dumbdumb]

O.K. this is the last I'll say of it as it's not worth wasting my time on the subject anymore.

It doesn't matter if I was at Polar, Atlas, American, or Mom & Pop Airways. I was only stating that fact that I disagree with two seniority lists. I was hired as an F.O. as well and my number is already in place. Therefore, I wasn't affected by the list, either.

No need to debate the ALPA/Teamster issue as we already know that has been done here.

[Prober]

Some years ago I was involved in training a number of F/E's for the RHS. Their jobs were evaporating and their company provided conversion courses for those able to take them. They were all very experienced operators though results went from one end of the spectrum to the other. However, one quote remains stuck in my mind - "For years I have sat there thinking 'You stupid old @art, why don't you do it this way?'. Now I know why - and I apologise to them all!"
Prober

[Con Sonar]

Prober,

New to this forum. I was at Atlas 95-98 as an FE. Left 3 months before they organized. Saw it coming like a tidal wave. Were you there then? FEs were just upgrading when I left.

[Ct.Yankee]

My Atlas class in May of 1994 had only one list.
My original # was in the nineties, after the arbitrary
two list was forced on us my pilot # was in the fifties.
There was no input solicited from the majority of the
crew force! (for what it's worth)

[slowto280]

So for the record, which group and which company is which union? (Man, that's a lot of which's.....) :ugh:

Never was a big fan of the Teamsters..... in the 80's, Capitol, yearly furlough during 'slow season', bid lines went from 65 -70 hour average to about 85 average. Go figure........

[WhaleDriver]

Both Atlas and Polar are IBT.

[ship's power]

For prober - post #26
Your post reminded me of a dumb statement made by a sim check airman while I was In FE/FO upgrade years ago . . . . He had said - "After sitting side saddle and watching us do this for the last 1,000 hours, you surly should be doing better" . . . My reply to him was " My daughter plays good concert piano. After watching her play for a thousand hours, you too could be playing good concert piano!"

[747newguy]

If my memory serves me, we had two elections over the two list issue. The only ones against it were the FEs transitioned/transtioning to FO and the over 60 pilots who moved to the back or soon to be over 60 pilots that couldn't get a seat because the professional FEs were protected by the 2 seat list. Atlas promised the PFEs that they wouldn't be displaced by over-60 pilots and the crew force respected this promise. Maybe its wrong, but that was the promise and it was one of the few that was kept at Atlas.

[Dutch74]

So I'm guessing the only problem with the FE moving to the RT seat on the 400 is IN FACT a scheduling issue. Not an FAR or ICAO issue, but a scheduling issue. Because he can't hold IRO until he /she has a ATP....


Phewww. Next time I'll just say... "So how are things at Atlas?" and then let the b1thching commence....

[anothercargopilot]

Dutch74,

The scheduling issue isn't really a problem as all new hires must have the prerequisite time to get a type rating and serve as IRO the first day on the line. Atlas had hired pilots in the past with low time whom initially were not able to get IRO qualified. All of those pilot have since gotten their type rating after about a year. Atlas No longer hires pilots that will NOT be able to get a type rating and serve as IRO after initial training. So only recent FE to pilot transitions lack experience to get the IRO qualification immediately. There are maybe 10 of these folks amongst 500 pilots.

That being said, since the Classic is a 3 person crew, it isn't until the flight time exceeds 12 hours that a relief pilot is needed and even then based on the numbers above, it would be EXTREMELY rare to have two Classic FO's that are NOT IRO qualified in an augmented crew.

More importantly, given an option, I think it makes a lot of sense to make a Classic FE a Classic FO for his first right seat job. He knows the plane, he knows the crews and he gets roughly half the landings (or more if the Captain is generous). Atlas -400 pilots almost always fly 3 or 4 pilot crews. One or two takeoffs/landings a month is hardly a place to get "stick time" and GAIN proficiency. Why put the additional difficulty of putting that FE into an unfamiliar cockpit when there is already enough stress of the transition?

When pilot hiring recently resumed, Atlas FE's both active and furloughed were given head of the line privileges before hiring commenced. I believe 6 or 8 people are now in training for the right seat. The offer for preferential hiring remains for all Atlas FE's both active and furloughed once the minimums set by the company and agreed to by the union are met.

I hope this helps.

ACP

[Dutch74]

It does, thanks for your response.

Dutch

[Ka D'argo]

Is Atlas only mostly upgrading FE's or are they actually taking on new crewmembers in this last round of hiring?

[MarkerInbound]

They are interviewing off the street.

[JCUERVO]

Hey guys, there seem to be a few of you that are working currently in Atlas and have a grip on the pulse of whats going on, so if you dont mind I have a couple of questions. Im currently in the Middle East and applied to Atlas about 2 weeks ago, I have done as much of my homework as I can about the life style and QOL and fits right into what I want in long term Airline.

What I would like to know is how long is it usually between sending your resume and hearing something (if anything) back? Is there anything that sets you apart in the stacks of applicants? Is there a number floating around as to how many more FO positions they are looking to fill?

Thanks for the help!

[zerozero]

Hey guys, there seem to be a few of you that are working currently in Atlas and have a grip on the pulse of whats going on, so if you dont mind I have a couple of questions. Im currently in the Middle East and applied to Atlas about 2 weeks ago, I have done as much of my homework as I can about the life style and QOL and fits right into what I want in long term Airline.

What I would like to know is how long is it usually between sending your resume and hearing something (if anything) back? Is there anything that sets you apart in the stacks of applicants? Is there a number floating around as to how many more FO positions they are looking to fill?

Thanks for the help!

As you know, the job market is really competitive right now.

My following comments are based upon comments made by our VP of Flight Ops at a fairly recent (few months ago) crew meeting.

In light of the Buffalo Colgan Air crash, he really doesn't want to expose his dept to any potential training problems. Therefore the "bar is set high" (his words).

Previous heavy international experience with an internal recommendation and previous military service will probably set you apart.

The VP said he's looking to hire a 60/40 mix of military/civilian pilots.

The previous heavy jet time and letter of recommendation seem to weigh more than the military experience, from what I can see.

I have no idea how long to wait for a response.

The chief pilot advises to keep updating your application on a regular basis--"be persistent, but not a PITA."

Good luck.
:cool:

[Duh]

zerozero, any gouge on recent or current "process"?

[zerozero]

Apart from what I described above:

--If HR is interested they'll start with a phone interview.

--If that goes well, you're invited to interview in person in Miami but before you show up to that you must complete an on-line test (ATP subject matter--I hear it's "challenging").

--The interview itself is with a management pilot, HR rep. and a line pilot. Everyone on the panel has input. There is no sim ride but there is a hand written essay required. Seriously.

:hmm:

--If the candidate gets a "thumbs up" they are placed in a hiring pool but no job offer until ground school commences.

--They seem to interview in groups of 12. I hear if they like everyone, they'll take everyone. If they don't like anyone, they won't take anyone. No quotas per se.

--Training pay is $1200/mo + per diem. Expect to spend two months in Miami for training. The new hire gets off of Training Pay and on Guarantee (62 hours/mo) once they make a "Fam Flight" before they begin OE. On the Fam Flight you simply observe a flight as if you were jumpseating.

Sounds like most new hires are going to Huntsville, AL and JFK in the -400 but I also hear there may be some -200 hiring as well.

That about covers it, I think.
Good luck.
:ok:

[bpp]

I believe the guarantee is 50 hours per month for the first year.

bpp

[zerozero]

I believe the guarantee is 50 hours per month for the first year.

bpp

Thanks, I stand corrected.

:cool:

[Duh]

Written essay. Hmmmmmm, describe in 500 words or more what you did last Summer. Rumor is, it takes ALL day too.:)

[cargowannabe]

Well Zero nailed it!!!

I just returned from the interview and I must say it was quit lengthy. 1 on 1 with CP. 1 on 1 with technical dude to go over questions missed on written test. 3 on 1 HR panel interview. Oh yeah, the written essay and a tour of the facility. The day definitely runs on time!

EVERYONE is very nice and they do put you at ease.

Good luck to all who have applied!!!! It sure is tough out there!!!

Cargo

[anothercargopilot]

The written essay is nothing to get wrapped up about. The object is to ensure that the candidate has adequate writing skills and can form coherent sentences expressing an idea/opinion. The subject of the essay is arbitrary and is usually come up with that morning by the interview staff.

ACP

[anothercargopilot]

Good luck Cargowannabe. I hope you get the call. Because of economic conditions the applicant process has been extremely competitive. Actually the running joke on the line is that many of us would fail to be selected in today's environment! :eek: I am sure you are well qualified.

ACG

[JCUERVO]

Hey wannabe, how long did it take from the time you applied to hear something back? Did you have an internal rec.?...Good luck BTW!

[cargowannabe]

Thanx, I will need all the luck i can get!!

It took me about a month and a half to hear something from HR. Yes I did have an internal rec. Also interviewed in May of '08 was put in the pool then so..... not sure if previous interview had any weight at all.

Great group of guys! There were 11 of us total 1 no show. All but 3 had heavy time. 8 had previous military experience and 1 of those had only single seat time. It was quit a diverse group/

Hope this helps.

Cargo