SO's to get P1 rating?

[Bye Bye Baby]

I hear tell that SO’s are about to be given P1 ratings – first rumour.
I was then told that this was in fact true. However, it won’t be a P1 rating it will be a P1x rating – second rumour.
So CX decides that 3 man ULH is a good thing. However, someone, somewhere along the line says “yes good, but all pilots must be rated, not this made up rating you invented”. So CX says, fine we will get the SO’s rated, but that will cost a lot of money in regard to base training (I seem to recall the necessity to do 6 T/O and LDGs in the aircraft).
Better idea, lets invent another rating a P1x rating. This will require the SO’s to stay current (3 T/O and LDGs per 3 months), in the simulator. However it will not require the costly exercise of actually landing the bit of aluminium.
Is this truly in the “spirit” of having rate guys on what the Authorities and other Airlines regard as an arduous pattern? Or is it simply another example of our beloved company working for the shareholders rather than the safety of the travelling public?

[superfrozo]

Rumour notwithstanding, methinks the SOs would prefer many more pressing things over a "P1X-beta tested 3 man ULH" rating.
...Like their STI.
...and their BPP.
...and their seniority respected by cessation of DEFO recruitment.
...and their careers NOT being definitively degraded by 17+ year A-scalers who work beyond 55 after they've "invested" in 3 wives, gold-plated Bangkok restaurant-owning-Alpaca wool-wearing-Single-Malt-Whiskey-drinking-Charles & Diana commemorative-plate-collecting-Ostriches!! :}

Yes, yes, I know: INCOMING!!! :E

[Bye Bye Baby]

Absolutely, that was not the point, there are very many other issues.
However, wouldn't you like some time which is valuable, rather than the sudo/madeup rating which you (and I once had). At least a P1 rating would be worth something, a P1x, I'm not so sure. raped again, sorry.

[Ex Cathedra]

Funny thing is: anybody not familiar with CX reading this thread would be laughing his ass off seeing the lenghts our dear company is ready to swim to try and avoid paying some of its pilots a simple FO package...

[Bye Bye Baby]

Too true, and not taking anything away from it because it is a very emotive and more than valid point, but just as important (I think), is the way that our company circumvents convention and decides its own rules.
They were told that it would not be acceptable to have 1xCpt, 1xFO and 1xSO on a 3 man ULH flight, so instead of doing it properly and giving the SO’s a full P1 rating they again invent another world exclusive rating the P1x. WTF you are reducing the knowledge/experience/alertness to ¾ of a normal flight deck crew and you want to skimp on the training for the 3rd guy who has to take up the slack.
Cathay is putting profit before the safety of the travelling public. Shame on you Cathay.

[BusyB]

Think you'll find BA started P1x when they dry-leased ANZ DC10's to go LHR-LAX.:ok:

[CokeZero]

This is where the lads on the 8th floor demand the SO's get a fixed P1 rating. A watered down one that will cost $ today but will cost $$$$$ when they upgrade. If they spent $$ to do the job properly.

Short sighted management who just think of the short term interests.

Who cares if the SO runs out of currency - it's not like he's not going to be in the sim in another 3 months?

Give them P1 ratings - less money spend on upgrade (in 18 months .... snigger).

[Mouwaa]

I thought the 3 man ULH had to be 1 CN & 2 FOs, as an aside when 4 crew are require, I believe it is going to be 1CN, 1 FO and 2 SOs. That guarantees at least one guy in the seat for landing (the FO of course) will get screwed on the rest.

Not exactly improving safety!

[Knightpilot]

I heard something similar. Career progression will now be Second Officer, Half Officer, then should DEFO's refuse to show for interviews, God willing and the creek don't rise Junior First Officer.

SO's will still make the bunks, but should anyone need to be screwed for rest the HO would be nominated. If the HO refuses it will be the Commander's responsibility to slap the HO to keep the HO in line.

[SMOC]

3 man ULH cannot be crewed using a P2X crew member, fortunately the CAD have seen the error of their ways and will allow CX to change them to P1X. CX is upset it took so long for CX S/Os to reach the 5 yr mark where their P2X rating expires, they can change them to P1X with CAD approval.

Got to love HK aviation :ugh:

[ka500]

Just remember, if 3 man europe starts, a Personal roster adjustment is much more effective if you fancy another day in Europe!
Use every tool, weapon to your advantage.

[lemondog]

I am currently an SO and I have to say the idea of going to 3 man crew with a new rating is rediculous. In my opinion the FDP limitations are almost at or are fast approaching the absolute maximum, ie mid east flights, double BKK-KHI etc. Some of these flights are conducted three man crew with one SO, FO and CN. As an SO you can at times feel out of the loop with what is going on, especially when you have just started your apprenticeship etc. To go three man crew to other destinations like LON, FRA etc would just be an extension of the fatigue I have already experienced. Throw an emergency in or an incapcitated Pilot etc and you are going to further reduce safety through having a Pilot at the controls who is not 100% endorsed on the aircraft, let alone confidently have the experience and knowledge of what would be required should the Sh*t hit the fan.Why would a company put itself in this situation? If they want to go three man crew then give us appropriate tools to do the job! I guess the old saying of "safety costs" is true.
Lemondog.

[crwjerk]

Agreed agreed agreed........ As safety and fatigue are number one hot topics today, it bemuses me ( not hard really ) that the AOA....... sorry guys..... have even considered accepting the new CAD 371........... And can someone enlighten me, how can Moscow be 3 crew? Is it not ULH???

[The Messiah]

Throw an emergency in or an incapcitated Pilot etc and you are going to further reduce safety through having a Pilot at the controls who is not 100% endorsed on the aircraft
Just being devils advocate how is that worse than having a flight attendant at the controls after an incapacitation on a 2 pilot operation? Which has been the risk forever.:confused:

[404 Titan]

The Messiah

The said Flight attendant should be in the jump seat, not a control seat. Splitting hairs I know.:ok:

[tx_dfw]

good post lemondog,

I agree with the points you made. 3 man ULH is not the way to go if we are concerned about safety.

[Striker58]

"And can someone enlighten me, how can Moscow be 3 crew? Is it not ULH???"

13 Hour FDP, that's how! Just like PANC.

[The Messiah]

And can someone enlighten me, how can Moscow be 3 man crew?
Now that is a typical sort of statement I hear these days. Had you have done just a smidgen of reading you could have answered your own question. There is plenty to complain about for sure but guys should do themselves a favour and research the topic for the facts before they sit next to me for 6 hours of whinging for me to say, "well that's not exactly true" or "that's not my understanding of what's happening".

Either get a hobby or get the facts.:ugh:

On second thoughts, just get a hobby.

[AQIS Boigu]

"And can someone enlighten me, how can Moscow be 3 crew? Is it not ULH???"

13 Hour FDP, that's how! Just like PANC.


so is AKL... flights times of up to 11hrs 30min if the winds are really strong...all done with 3 man... gotta love that 6am wake up call in AKL (1am HKG time) after less than 24hrs on the ground...

[FOCX]

The Messiah,

Re:Just being devils advocate how is that worse than having a flight attendant at the controls after an incapacitation on a 2 pilot operation? Which has been the risk forever.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

That's simple, probability. You've just had one incapacitation, what's the likelihood of another on that flight?