BALPA - Finally had enough

[Dreamshiner]

Some on here may remember I started a poll thread to garner current opinion on our largest and primary union. Essentially I wanted to see if my personal experiences were shared by others or I was in a small minority.

I went into it with an open mind and knew my experiences and perception would be different from many who had been in employment since qualification or had experiences of having a robust CC working for them.

In the past week I've found out yet another thing that has left me wondering what the hell is going on and exasperated at how its been allowed to happen.

With the demise of Skyservice in Canada a number of pilots there immediately came onto the market. A number had worked during the UK summer season in years gone by and no doubt relationships (both personal and business) had developed over this time. I have learned that TCX made an immediate bid to bring them into their fold (unsure if it was 6 month or full time), only to find that Easyjet piped them to the post and offered a better package.

In a time where there are so many UK based/national pilots out of work, rated on both the A320 and B757, I can't understand why BALPA allowed this to happen without doing something. Its only been 6 months since the demise of Globespan.

Maybe BALPA did intervene, but if that is the case I've yet to hear about it which would show a failing in their communication.

[PENKO]

ehr....easyJet did what?

[gatbusdriver]

Just to clarify......

TCX did not bid to bring them into the fold. Those that could live and work in the UK were employed by TCX. Only a few pilots from SSV have been employed this year, and on exactly the same conditions as all other new joiners (which unfortunately means they are on 7/5).

[Jonny-no-stars]

DS

At the risk of sounding like a BALPA apologist; when you talk about BALPA "allowing" this to happen, and I wholeheartedly agree that it is a totally unjust practice, who specifically do you mean? Is it the NEC, the paid employees, or us, the Pilots that make up BALPA that you are bemoaning?

It is for the Company Councils of EZY and/or TCX, supported by BALPA infrastructure and financially by the rest of the sub paying members, to take action. If the CC's choose not to act then what do you propose BALPA, in the form of the NEC or paid employees, to do about it? Call a general strike of all UK Airlines? No thanks from me.

I often wonder what people think BALPA is? IMHO We are it and it is us. When we criticize "BALPA inaction" we only criticize ourselves.

I really hope to see this thread expand into a positive discussion so may I ask, respectfully, what you would like to see done?

[Dreamshiner]

Johnny,

I am not surprised by your request, many on here suggest that if you criticise anything or anyone on PPRuNe then that criticism isn't enough, you have to follow it up with a full recovery package or scheme.

However based upon your invite, here is what I'd recommend, I reckon there are at least 20 initiative or issues that could be addressed immediately to improve things. I have listed 8.

1./ I believe BALPA has become a fragmented organisation where some CC's exhibit the best of what collective bargaining offers and some have shown what self serving reps can do to feather their own caps. Granted individual airlines have individual problems and agendas, however this does not mean that the union has to franchise itself. When it comes to major issues affecting the industry all CC's should come together with one voice for the greater good, not their own vested interest - It has been discussed that the nature of our industry means by in large it is populated in the majority by financially comfortable individuals who don't align themselves with any militant behaviour so I accept this now veers into a social background argument which I'm not qualified to answer.

2./ Unemployment increased again today to 2.1m and 8.2m economically inactive (students, training schemes, volunteer work, carers, etc.). They have a responsibility to preserve and safeguard existing jobs (of course sometimes no amount of intervention will facilitate this) and aid the unemployed to find gainful employment. This includes not allowing companies like Air Mauritius to take on the MoD airbridge contract to the Falklands when GSM went bust, then follow it up by not insisting Air Mauritius employ any ex-GSM pilots.

3./ Not forget what the B in BALPA stands for, whither it be a citizen or a resident, their rights and voice has to be promoted before those of other countries who's own unions would create quite a stink if things were in reverse. If you have a valid licence and medical, right to live and earn and are here already then you have to be given priority.

4./ Communicate adequately with the pilot community as to what they envisage as problems now and on the horizon, how they plan to combat them and list the pro's and con's for these so each member can formulate an opinion and at least have the tools to adequately voice it if they chose to do so. If the information I have relayed in this thread is incorrect they could adequately nip it in the bud if incorrect - If for example the SSV info is correct and the CC's chose not to act then they should have to give a public reason why they haven't opposed it.

5./ Strong central leadership that acknowledge that many things have been overlooked and the address the fragmented nature of the "brand". Leadership that prioritise what affects us most going forward rather than focusing on easy to win minutia.

6./ Exchange best practices, negotiation tactics and strategies between CC's. Large companies such as BA are lucky that they will have access to a number of talented individuals now working on the flightdeck who pursued alternative careers beforehand such as lawyers and accountants, not every airlines CC is as large or lucky. Do CC's from Virgin, BA, Easyjet and BMi (as scheduled UK carriers) or TCX, Jet2, Monarch, Thomson (Charter) meet regularly if at all? If not, would nobody agree there is merit in something such as this happening either within sector or UK-wide.

7./ Form some sort of group that the unemployed and disenfranchised can interact within, with no CC they are a sizeable number and the future of BALPA (and their revenue), ignoring them now seems to be folly.

8./ Just fight our corner with the same degree of intelligence and vigour as we witness exhibited by those representing our continental, Commonwealth or American counterparts.

[Paul Rice]

Balpa can be seen as the biggest collection of spineless, gutless, wasters that like a leech parisitically suck cash from naive pilots.

Many pilots are lured by the idea that come the unlucky day, when you might need employement advice to protect you from the worst and even sometimes criminal excesses of modern day management that somehow they might be around to help.

But then sadly if you find yourself in that situation you will discover they have no back bone, no stomach to help out and zero moral courage.

When there not busy bottling out there often giving duff advise and even taking advertising revenue from the very employer that shafted you

They are concerned with two things memebership fees followed by having a quiet life.

One of the best things that can happen to any pilot is to be deep in the mire in some way early on in their career. Not because being deep in it is any fun at all but because having been deep in it and being left high and dry by the BALPA wasters you can do yourself a favour and cancel your 1% membership.

Over 30 years that could easily amount to say circa £15,000 cash

Dont waste your money on these muppets whatever you do.

[Jonny-no-stars]

DS

You're ideology and idea's are sound, no question, but everywhere that you write "they" you need to think "we" - that's my point. CC's in most companies have such limited roster release and so many demands on their time that it is impossible for them to be as strategic as you, constructively, suggest they should be. The leadership you, and I, aspire to should (would) come from the NEC but they too only have so much time to give and there isn't enough paid employees to take up the slack.

So do you want to pay more subs or should more people strong minded, articulate and motivated people be volunteering to do their bit? (that's a hint by the way).

[Dreamshiner]

I draw attention to a post made in the poll thread articulated better than I could ever aspire to by 4star:

"To all those who say "Shhh, don't question the value/effectiveness of BALPA it will only make things worse..." I say we question it because we care. We care about our profession and we care about BALPA. We want it to not just secure the current members but recover those who have left and encourage new members.

To those who say "listen, you don't get it. It's a members led organisation, speak to your CC..." I say what about all those who are unemployed/work for a company where the union is not recognised/ have been forced to find work abroad etc.

To those who say " you have unrealistic expectations of what BALPA can do...." I say let BALPA tell me what is possible and what isn't. Let BALPA explain to me that at the very least it understands the national issue's and it has considered the options. Where BALPA has a weakness in an area that it has then liaised with other unions/ taken legal advise/ looked at using public relations experts etc etc etc. At the very least acknowledge the damn issue's and communicate with us more.

To those who say "well the current system works just dandy in my airline..." I say perhaps - but only in respect of internal matters. With respect that is simply not good enough. Your company does not operate in an economic bubble. While you have been protecting your T & C's others have had there's reduced. Those companies may be in a position to take business away from you. You could end up with the best T & C's of any airline thats failed so far."

[al446]

As one with an aviation background but no involvement and an active trade unionist in another field may I throw this bit in the ring?

UK employment law is robust, those employed from outside UK must jump some pretty high hurdles, in the case of Canadians without required dual nationality or work visas they would not be allowed to be employed by a UK employer, those with the status to be employed by a UK employer have equal rights to compete for positions. NO union can change and it is a waste of time berating any union for doing nothing, it is HMG they must move.
In short, neither BALPA nor IPA have any power to prevent the situation posed, in the same way as they cannot prevent any other legal practice such as training schemes run by OAA etc.

Sorry chaps, that's the way it is.

[Dreamshiner]

Maybe so Al however I would suggest where there is a will there is a way, any robust safeguard can be circumvented, just depends on how good your lawyer is. No doubt they have worked in the UK in the past is one of many justifications they have/will give to HM Immigration Services.

BALPA may not be able to stop P2F directly, however they can mobilise their members or at the very least release a press release against the practice which would no doubt be picked up by flight international and the national press. So far I have seen evidence of neither despite universal hatred of this.

What I am certain of is Jim McAuslan has shared more games of golf and 3 course lunches courtesy of "The Log" sponsor and P2F trailblazers OAA, than he has composed letters telling them he is unhappy with this trend they are promoting.

[capt ronweb]

What I am certain of is Jim McAuslan has shared more games of golf and 3 course lunches courtesy of "The Log" sponsor and P2F trailblazers OAA, than he has composed letters telling them he is unhappy with this trend they are promoting.

Jim, respond please!!

Capt Ronweb.:=

[gatbusdriver]

Interesting......I am a Balpa advocate, but I missed that post by 4star on the other thread, a very well written post that makes you think outside the company bubble.

Out of interest DS, is that above accusation gospel truth or rumour. If it is the truth I would be a little concerned.

[WHYEYEMAN]

Who do you think BALPA are? You are BALPA and BALPA is you??

BULL**** - BALPA is not a charity.

When I pay my tax I do not feel the need to go down and help out at my local school, hospital, tax office, council tip, etc. I pay for it and it gets done.

We pay a lot of money to BALPA, and nothing gets done. Archiving activities associated with BALPA's 75th anniversary doesn't count I'm afraid. "United in the interests of British airline pilots". Also BULL****.

Alot of people are hanging on in BALPA by a thread only. Please can the senior leadership at BALPA begin STOPPING THE ROT that has already become SOP in this industry. Otherwise more and more people will just leave BALPA and our position will be even further weakened.

BALPA are now a backwards looking talking shop where everyone moans about how bad things have got with absolutely no culture of getting anything done about it at the fundamental level.

I know this seems harsh but this is not just my perception.

A change of attitude would cost nothing.

[Agaricus bisporus]

BALPA are now a backwards looking talking shop where everyone moans about how bad things have got with absolutely no culture of getting anything done about it at the fundamental level.
WHYEYEMAN, with all due respect (which in this case isn't very much) the makeup of BALPA has been amply explained above, and if things are not being done to your satisfaction then get off your idle arse and do something about it yourself instead of expecting to have it handed to you on a plate. If your CC is that bad only the membership in your company is to blame - no one else, but then your basic understanding of what a Union is and does is so wide of the mark I doubt you'd see yourself having a role in shaping your own future. If you can't be bothered to learn what a union is, let alone join in and help then please stop spouting such, er, bullshine, or just lift a finger elect more effective people into your CC. Do you see no irony at all in bemoaning "no action at the fundamental level????" That's YOU!
A change of attitude would cost nothing.

QED


Why can people not understand this simple concept? Post 9 is spot on - if nothing was illegal neither BALPA not the House of Lords can stop it.

In any case, does anyone suppose that easyjet or anyone else went bleating to BALPA in advance? Get real! About what? People with a legal right to work in UK being given employment? Have a care people, that table could equally turn on YOU! Only once the deal was done did it become public knowledge, I'll bet, and it's a bit late to initiate a discussion by then.

The iniquity here is one of respect for employees, and seniority and command prospects amongst existing FOs; shameful, underhand and appallingly bad for morale. All of that is very upsetting, but it ain't illegal. There will be nothing "binding" in the company's promotion policy, merely advisory, so what could possibly be done beyond a protest to the company who will only claim commercial necessity?

Work to rule perhaps?

[Paul Rice]

BALPA is just a joke !

A great cash grabbing machine, a great marketing machine, a great machine for creating division amongst pilots but for actually getting anything positive done be would be really grateful if someone could step forward with some examples.

Do the maths : lets take say a charter outfit with say 400 pilots lets say circa 80% are in BALPA and lets say the average pilot wage in this outfit is paid £50,000. Then based on these numbers the BALPA fees total up to massive £160,000 per annum.

Yes thats right a massive fee income of £160,000.

But what do the Comrades flying the line get in return for this massive fee of £160,000.

Do they get a full time professional representative ? No
Do they get negotiators ? No
Do they get access to an employment lawyer if needed ? No

Do they get a kick in teeth from BALPA if something goes wrong and the need help ? Yes you bet they do.

BALPA runs from responsibility quicker than a Government ditches its manifesto.

What happens is for £160,000 you get a self help company council composed of the well intentioned, the willing and the concerned but these kindly souls often have little or no training or experiance in employemnt law, and often little or no negotiating or exposure to modern management practice.

Its like paying the council to empty the bins then being asked to drive the truck and do the bin round yourself. Or quite literally paying the barrister £160,000 and finding that that on the day of the trial you can represent yourself.

BALPA is a rip off and it's a complete nonsense.

Lets ditch the muppets BALPA and form a real Union.

[WHYEYEMAN]

Don't get me wrong - I want a strong BALPA as much as the next person. I mean that quite sincerely. The reason I am becoming so irate is exactly because I want BALPA to be a strong, respected, universal pilots union. I would support BALPA all the way. More than most I would say if it came down to it.

This country is financially up the creek and has been making a loss and needing to borrow money for years. I think we owe well over a trillion an the moment and this is increasing by £165 billion a year presently. Do I see other professional associations / unions allowing their doctors / nurses / teachers / bin-men, etc. to be employed as casually as pilots are? NO. This is because their representatives make sure that this doesn't happen.

The only organisation we have to provide the aviation industry with a 'this is how pilot employment works' type set of guidelines is BALPA and look at what has happened. It has failed.

The company I work for is going to make over £100m this year yet it employs many FO's, via a sub-contracter, on an hourly rate with no pension, no sick pay, no nightstop allowance, no anything else. Many are suffering personal and financial stress as a result. Some are having to declare themselves bankrupt to get the bailiffs off their back. They won't be getting a mortgage or any other borrowing facilities for the foreseeable future. (£100m profit remember - thats after the Ash losses) "United in pilot's interests" ?? WTF??

"Do you see no irony at all in bemoaning "no action at the fundamental level????" That's YOU!"
No I'm afraid it's not me. I'm a pilot. I fly aeroplanes. I am a professional. I PAY someone to look after the industry in which I work. People are therefore PAID to look after the industry. As I said before BALPA is not a charity. Maybe you could suggest something that I personally could do to sort out the issue I mentioned above for instance.

I have cut and pasted the following from post number 9 which you say you so admire:

"In short, neither BALPA nor IPA have any power to prevent the situation posed"

So what exactly are they for? Please someone explain to me in straight plain English, not esoteric New Labour style BS of which I am sick, exactly what BALPA is for in May 2010.

[tocamak]

Do they get a full time professional representative ? No
Do they get negotiators ? No
Do they get access to an employment lawyer if needed ? No


I assume that you were either a CC member or your CC informed you of this state of affairs. If this was the case as you state why did the CC not actually do something and get it sorted. I was on our company CC for four years and at every meeting our principal negotiator was present and this was also the case at monthly Company meetings and pay talks. Our Company went through a major change but we had access to legal representation throughout.

Any issue that is relevant to an individual company is in the first instance for the CC to take up. If it cannot be resolved at that point then Balpa resources are further available to take it on. Certainly the effectiveness is really down in the first place to the CC and if you are not happy then give them hassle or even get elected. It's that time of year anyway.

[Paul Rice]

BALPA is a self serving political organisation which exists in its present form to do little other than to take your money and give nowt in return.

Can someone take me up on the BALPA challenge and list 5 key achievements of BALPA over the last 10 years ?

At Unite they roar like a lion , the brave cabin crew fighting on their feet for thier jobs and their terms and conditions compared and contrasted to the BALPA lamb which meakly wimps by and dies on its knees.

[Hand Solo]

At Unite they roar like a lion , the brave cabin crew fighting on their feet for thier jobs and their terms and conditions compared and contrasted to the BALPA lamb which meakly wimps by and dies on its knees.

Having seen the way Unite roar at BA I thank god that I am represented by BALPA and not those 70s throwback loonies.

[Paul Rice]

and BALPA's 5 key achievements are

1.?
2.?
3.?
4.?
5.?

[gatbusdriver]

Don't feed the troll

[Paul Rice]

There we have it at last a start BALPA's 5 key achievements

1. Dont feed the troll.
2.?
3.?
4.?
5.?

Not doing so well here are we?

Come on Comrades 5 key achievements in the last 10 years even BALPA must have some!

[Hand Solo]

Would you care to tell us Unites 5 achievements? Let me help you with a starter:

1) Leading BA cabin crew into a costly strike they can't win and achieving a poorer outcome than was first offered by BA over a year ago.

Over to you for the remaining 4.......:ok:

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

Any sensible union leader, Unite, BALPA, ALPA, Fred's Shunters Union....knows that you fight the good fight when things are booming.

When times is baad.....you eat sh1t.

How much sh1t you eat depends on how much pain you can inflict and the volcano has shown that if you can't fly it gets very painful!

[bluelearjetdriver]

Well here's an interesting one:

I am currently contracting at the Greasy lot (I am one of the bunch made redundant from bmi and took up a flexiscrew contract) and was given a letter of intent to employ me full time come the 1st November.

Happy days I thought!!!! However our beloved BALPA has in the meantime negotiated a pay DECREASE(compared to the original direct entry FO's pay of(£45k vs £49k), along with a FLEXIBLE roster (vs. the 5/4/5/3 roster I was hoping to get) and a DEMOTION (the SFO upgrade has been raised to 3000 factored greasyjet hours vs. issue of ATPL originally) All this for a company actually making a profit!!!!! BTW this affects 50 new joiners from the 1st November.

Correct me if I am wrong, but according to my books BLAPA are systematically degrading conditions for future generations and now current generations!!!

Anyway rant over, subscription cancelled and from what it looks like, career cancelled....

[Paul Rice]

Hardly University challenge this is it?

Lets have some key achievements of BALPA in the last 10 years.

10 years includes at least one recession and one boom so its a long enough period to at least show some achievements.

So far we have for BALPA's 5 key achievements

1.Dont feed the troll.
2.Unite have led the cabin crew into a costly strike that they cannot win.
3.?
4.?
5.?

Given that the average UK skipper earns circa £80K so hands out to BALPA £800 per annum the list of achivements for the cash wasted looks a bit depressing.

Come on Comrades are there any BALPA achievements. There must be some is there?

[Caudillo]

Ah wait, I've got one I think. Didn't they get recognition as some form of professional association, similar to the Law Society and the GMC? That's rather good isn't it? So despite earning about the same as a warehouse supervisor, pilots can at least regard themselves in the same light as respected professionals.

Anyway, it's the sunrises that nobody can take away. And they're worth something money can't buy. Punching through the clouds in the winter to be one of the first and only people that day to see the sun, that makes it all worthwhile etc. etc. etc. (continue until bankrupt/coronary event)

Here's a thought actually, they've got a bigger database of UKIP voters than UKIP do. Flog that off to Nigel Farage and you could halve the subscriptions.

[Paul Rice]

So far in order of presentation BALPA ' s outstanding achievments in the last 10 years are reported to be

1.Dont feed the troll.
2.Unite have led the cabin crew into into a fight they cannot win.
3.Negotiated a wage decrease.
4.Achieved recognition as a professional association with wages akin to a warehouse supervisor.
5. Built up the countries largest database of UKIP supporters.

For such an outstanding service to aviation over the last 10 years it seems only right and proper we should recognise BALPA with an award of some kind.

Seriously keep the achievements flowing there must be something of substance to show for 10 years.

[Bruce Wayne]

Caudillo,

Not being an authority on employment law and legislation, i cant agree/disagree..

however, here is Directive 2005/36/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council, 7th September 2005 on the recognition of professional qualifications.


http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/consleg/2005/L/02005L0036-20070101-en.pdf

in short:


European Directive 2005/36/EC (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/consleg/2005/L/02005L0036-20070101-en.pdf) aids mobility by obliging Member States to consider the qualifications acquired elsewhere in the Community to allow access to a regulated profession in their territory.

The rights of EU citizens to establish themselves or to provide services anywhere in the EU are fundamental freedoms in the Single Market.

However, national regulations which stipulate specific professional qualifications for certain professions impede these fundamental freedoms.

These obstacles are overcome by EU rules guaranteeing the mutual recognition of professional qualifications between Member States.

[Caudillo]

Bruce, likewise.

And a fantastic directive if I may say so too. I'm not entirely certain what you're driving at however.

I don't know if this offering will break into the top five - but when I have had occasion to thumb The Log, I have discovered in between the Volvo adverts and peculiar cartoons about gentlemen that wear ear protectors over braided hats, a letters page that makes that of the Daily Mail look positively liberal. That is surely an achievement of rare distinction.

[al446]

Whyeyeman -

Do I see other professional associations / unions allowing their doctors / nurses / teachers / bin-men, etc. to be employed as casually as pilots are? NO

Firstly, the actual answer is YES, there are a mass of employment agencies for most of the above but, come on, bin men? Professional? is your head up a certain orifice?

With regard to professional status of pilots, I don't think you have it. AFAIK that status is reserved for those who do or may belong to a royal college such as nurses, doctors, midwives etc. Not pilots.

[Agaricus bisporus]

I am currently contracting at the Greasy lot (I am one of the bunch made redundant from bmi and took up a flexiscrew contract)

Hmm. I don't expect that impresses time-served "Greasy" FOs one little bit.

What did you expect? To have your vaseline provided foc?

Grin and bear it, before you get it vaseline free.

And if you plan to go through a career in bed with such a bunch of rogues as that with no protection at all, you'll soon be dreaming of the help you'd have got from BALPA. Just how blinkered, short termist, cheap, selfish and superficial can people get?

Best of luck. You're gonna be needing it.

[Paul Rice]

Seriously guys 2744 views of this thread and yet not one person has come up with a real BALPA achievement.

So lets keep this running what say for another 24 hours before it will be realistic to conclude based on non response that BALPA indeed have no achievements and certainly none that could be defined as a top achievement.

One could be cutting and say managing to stay in business while being totally useless is an achievment in its own right but hardy one to be proud of so come on you BALPA Comrades lets have some achievements that BALPA can be proud of.

[al446]

Paul Rice - I think you should consider what unions are about. In certain cases it may be to 'achieve' something such as equality of pay and conditions, protection from over exploitation etc but mainly they exist to prevent erosion of T&Cs for existing members within the legal framework. Achievements are the domain of politicians. As BALPA is not affiliated to any party you cannot criticise.

I very much doubt if anyone on this forum can have knowledge of successful actions they have fought without a breach of confidence having taken place so your argument is null and void.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

[JB007]

In short, neither BALPA nor IPA have any power...

Have to agree 100% with this comment from al446...wake up guys to the 'games' at play in this industry...BALPA are nothing...

[Paul Rice]

Hi Al446 at last an attempt to front up for BALPA.

Thank you but I dont think your argument quite breaks the argument that BALPA cannot demonstrate significant achievements in the last 10 years.

Taking your points in turn

1. Equality of Pay nowt to do with BALPA Equal Pay Act was in bought in 1970 some 40 years ago. Legislation 40 years ago having nowt to do with BALPA can hardly be counted as a BALPA achievment in the last 10 years.

2. Protection against Erosion of Terms and Conditions this is a BALPA failure not an achievement.

3. Protection against explotation again a BALPA failure what has BALPA done to prevent the explotation of pilots in pay to fly appointments for example.

4. Achievements are just the preserve of politicians and as BALPA is not affilaited to any political party you can't criticise. What sort of twisted medievil logic is this. Achievements are not just the preserve of politcians they are the preserve of every human being and every human enterprise. BALPA is part of the TUC which is embeded in the Labour Party which come to think of it is another failing organisation.

5. BALPA legal success covered by confidentiality agreements so we cant measure how well they have done. Your last point has some merit but there is overwhelming evidence of BALPA not taking on strong legal cases to protect members and leaving individuals high and dry when they have been shafted by employers. On balance BALPA has a bad record for this but success or failure here needs better testing bofore its chalked up as an achievement or as I suspect probably another abject failure.

So far we are not doing well here are we. A skipper over 10 years hands over £8000 to BALPA and in return BALPA delivers at best a dodgy record in very patchy legal protection and so far I can see nowt else to show as an achievment.

BALPA is just not worth it.

[Lord Amberden]

Exactly the conclusion I reached a while back.

A small example at my company was the huge fuss created when crew food amount and quality was reduced unilaterally. BALPA talked tough, ranted and raged that it was breech of contract, a reduction in our terms and conditions etc.

Six months of silence later they were forced to eat their words when learned council informed them that there was no contractual agreement regarding amount and quality, so they blamed it on the previous CC!

When I resigned from BALPA a year ago, they sent me a standard scare tactics letter about how exposed I'd be without their legal "protection". As far as I could work out it was nothing of the sort, and as previous contributors have stated, BALPA cherry-pick who they will or won't represent, based on either internal company politics or a cast iron case in their favour.

Correct me if I'm wrong but according to their accounts, BALPA spent £165000 in legal representation last year. Peanuts, considering the size of the membership.

Where does the money go?

[DiagonalLeg]

First off, I have no dog in this fight.

However, I'm slightly confused by comments I've seen several times in different threads. They say that BALPA is not doing anything because the respective employers are not doing anything illegal. Isn't this confusing the role of the police with the role of the trade union?

What I can't understand is that this should be the situation:

Police: Investigate and bring charges against perpetrators of illegal acts
Trade Union: Provide a vehicle for collective bargaining and ensure protection of members' working conditions.

To me, these two roles aren't even close. So what am I missing here? I wonder if it is because all big BALPA seems to do is bring the odd case in court. Maybe this makes BALPA seem more like your solicitor than your trade union?

I also wonder if, in general, the pilot body is too apathetic and divided already to ever be unified into striking (in this country, that is). Without any stick, carrot-and-stick just doesn't work and this perhaps explains the imbalance in pay and conditions we're seeing.

[max_cont]

I love these whinges about BALPA. :rolleyes:

Having served on a BALPA cc for one of the largest UK companies currently operating, I can’t help but smile when people like Paul Rice rant on and on.

As a CC your stick with which to beat the management with, is only as big as your work colleagues’ resolve on the matter in question. Since getting pilots to act together in their collective long term interest is like trying to herd cats, that stick is small and fairly limp.

This industry is populated by a significant number of pilots whose main defining characteristic seems to be a willingness to shaft their colleagues’ for their own narrow self interest.

Management know this and exploit it. The race to the bottom will only halt when we get there. It will be this way because we seem unable to help ourselves.

Paul stop whining and get yourself onto the CC you despise and show them how it’s done.

I suspect however, that you don’t have a pair and are happy to snipe from the comfort of your keyboard, safe in the knowledge that you won’t have to do anything that requires a bit of effort. :ugh:

[Skipping Classes]

Dear Max,

If things are how you are describing them, BALPA is completely useless by its nature, because it could never work.

So why wasting 1% of your income if you could put it aside for some sort of legal support insurance and have your own professional and highly motivated lawyer which you pay directly to work for you when you need it?

Seriously, I don't understand those who have not quit BALPA yet.

Cheers

[Bruce Wayne]

Paul stop whining and get yourself onto the CC you despise and show them how it’s done.


Max,

Paul pays for a dog. So should he have to bark himself?

See SC's post above ^

[max_cont]

What 1% is that? Since the BALPA subscription is tax deductable I can’t work out where the 1% is you talk about.

As for “useless” take a look at the various T&C’s on offer and see which company is currently offering the best. Then look at what percentage of BALPA membership is in that company? It could be coincidence but I doubt it.

If all you want is legal representation then there are cheaper ways to get it…but the cover offered is very limited and the lawyers won’t just take up your case because you say so. They will look at the case merits and decide if they stand a good chance of winning and go from there…just like BALPA. They also won’t help you keep your job when you suffer that brain fart as we all sometimes do. They won’t be lobbying parliament etc etc. I’ve sat as condemned prisoner’s friend on more than one occasion. We got results that no lawyer would achieve.

As I found out when I got involved, BALPA do a better job than most people believe. There is a staggering amount of work going on behind the scenes that is not apparent unless you look or suddenly find yourself doing it. It’s not perfect by any stretch of imagination but there is nothing currently on offer that is better.

Having seen first hand some of the wheezes tabled by our management (and they are an enlightened lot when compared to some) I have realised that the Victorian mill owner mindset is alive and well in 2010.

Paul is not paying for a dog, he is joining an association. That association helps him achieve his aims through collective action and effort. If it fails him as he claims, then he needs to ensure that that is corrected. If the majority of his colleagues agree with him, then he and his colleagues have to get off their backsides and stand together and resolve the issue.

BALPA is Paul and his colleagues, not some super hero army that will ride in and fight their battles for them.

[clanger32]

As per DiagonalLeg earlier, I have no real strong feelings in this fight.

I'm not working as a pilot, not looking like I ever will due to advancing years, necessity for return on my training investment and economic outlook, so I gave up my student membership.
The only real gripe I have with Balpa (as opposed to impressions of) is that they do absolutely nothing at all whatsoever (and I'm labouring this point deliberately) to help or protect anyone that doesn't actually have a CC - the student members, the qualified but unemployed or the single pilot Ops guys.

However, the main point I wanted to bring up is that time and time again we see comments like:
Quote:
In short, neither BALPA nor IPA have any power...
Have to agree 100% with this comment from al446...wake up guys to the 'games' at play in this industry...BALPA are nothing...


So, if Balpa are recognised - by those that actually support them!!! - as being of limited or zero power, then what the chuff is the point of them; of paying ANYTHING at all to them?

There is only any value at all, if they can and will fight the corner, surely? Otherwise, as others have mentioned you're better off saving your 1% per month and putting into a sinking fund for your own protection, perhaps organising some kind of co-operative agreement with fellow pilots that you'll support each other if the fees exceed what you've squirrelled?

To mix a metaphore nicely, if Balpa are powerless, then isn't it kind of like buying a dog with no teeth AND having to bark yourself?

[max_cont]

BALPA are not powerless, just not omnipotent as some would like.

For the last time you don’t pay 1%...its tax deductable therefore the taxman gives it back as a tax allowance. I can’t say it any clearer than that.

There is only any value at all, if they can and will fight the corner, surely? Otherwise, as others have mentioned you're better off saving your 1% per month and putting into a sinking fund for your own protection, perhaps organising some kind of co-operative agreement with fellow pilots that you'll support each other if the fees exceed what you've squirrelled?

Trust me, BALPA find it hard enough to keep the workforce onside when things go pear shaped. Good luck to you all if you honestly believe your colleagues will stand by you with cash in hand, ready to help you out when the time comes.

[Bruce Wayne]

For the last time you don’t pay 1%...its tax deductable therefore the taxman gives it back as a tax allowance. I can’t say it any clearer than that


Sorry that's a moot point. Tax deductible or not *you* pay for it..

As such, by reasonable deduction of that logic, BALPA should represent tax payers and not pilots.


BALPA find it hard enough to keep the workforce onside when things go pear shaped. Good luck to you all if you honestly believe your colleagues will stand by you


so then, a collective a pilots can't be expected to act with mutual interest?

Both your points For BALPA are, in fact, Against BALPA.

[Bruce Wayne]

in today's Daily Maul...


Pilots' leaders urged the new Government today to intervene in the British Airways cabin crew dispute, warning that a wave of strikes from next week threatened jobs.

Meanwhile, BA said a customer survey revealed that passengers preferred volunteer staff who stood in for striking cabin crew during seven days of action in March.

The British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa) wrote to Transport Secretary Philip Hammond and Business Secretary Vince Cable asking them to help convene fresh talks between the airline and Unite.

British Airways pilots have called on the Government to step in and try to break the deadlock between the Unite union and BA bosses, in a bid to avert 20 days of crippling strikes.


Thousands of Unite members will walk out for five days from next Tuesday, the first of a series of five-day stoppages in a bitter row over jobs, pay and staffing levels.

[max_cont]

Sorry Bruce that is not correct. The complaint is that they pay 1%...they do not. The taxman will refund most of the fee. The fee belongs to the individual not the taxman or any other collection of individuals.

support each other if the fees exceed what you've squirrelled?

I understood the poster was referring to legal action being taken by an individual and running out of money for the lawyers fees. You are suggesting something else…perhaps an association or something. :ok:

[clanger32]

Max Cont,
good usage of words, but not quite...
I do indeed mean that if an individual faced legal action, the cost of which exceeded that individuals own legal fund, then other colleagues may contribute some of their own fund, on the basis that they could expect to receive the same backing if they faced the same situation. Admittedly this is, apparently, about as likely as Henry the VIII being suddenly unveiled as a CIA hitman who actually shot JFK from the grassy knoll, but still - the complaint is that BALPA isn't EVEN trying to take the cases on...hence I was speculating that a co-operative (NOT an association... :ok:) may be a viable alternative.

Second point, is that I am very agnostic as to BALPA. However, no-one, ever answers the point that BALPA (if it is a true statement to say "BALPA = You, you = Balpa" as is often trotted out) is NOT actually the BRITISH airline pilots association...it's the pilots association of whatever airline it is representing, because it sure as hell doesn't appear to represent the whole and it absolutely, certainly, withou question does nothing at all for those that MOST need it's protection - those that HAVE no CC and have to represent themselves - the newbies, the out of work. Yet Balpa still happily take the money for this...

[Skipping Classes]

Dear Max,

Now you have completely lost credibility in my eyes: if you think that "tax-deductible" means "free" then we are really missing some very basic knowledge here.

Just before anybody gets an idea that BALPA membership is free, let me explain what tax-deductible is.

First, you have to pay 1% of your income to BALPA (or anybody else) with *real money*.

Then, *depending on your personal tax situation* your taxable income will be reduced by the amount that you have paid in tax-deductibles.

In other words, you don't pay tax over your entire income, but over your income minus the tax deductibles.

Depending on your personal situation, especially if you have a debt or other tax deductibles, this will not help you much. You would not pay that much tax anyway.

If you happen to make loads of money, then depending on the country you are in and in which tax-rate scale you are, you will pay less tax.

Example:

Lets say you earn 1000 EUR a month and pay 50% tax.

Without Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
Taxable income 1000 EUR
Tax 50% 500 EUR
Net 500 EUR

With Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
BALPA membership 10 EUR
Taxable income 990 EUR
Tax 50% 495.00 EUR
Net 495.00 EUR
You paid to BALPA: 5 EUR

Now if you happen to pay less tax, lets say 25%:

Without Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
Taxable income 1000 EUR
Tax 25% 250 EUR
Net 750 EUR

With Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
BALPA membership 10 EUR
Taxable income 990 EUR
Tax 25% 247.50 EUR
Net 742.50 EUR
You paid to BALPA: 7.50 EUR

Your membership therefore is ABSOLUTELY NOT FREE.

[max_cont]

Skipping...I said it was tax deductable not free. I can see from the way I phrased the answer why you were confused.

Until we got the right to claw some of the fee back it was costing us all a genuine 1%. However, we at that time thought it was worth it so we all paid up. Now I get two thirds of my subscription fee back. It’s more than we used to get and a lot better than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick.

The reason for the large subscription fee is because the association is comparatively small. The cost of doing business is not reduced just because you only have a few thousand members. Try to take on the likes of BA legally and the costs will neuter or bankrupt an under funded association in a few days. The bill for the last spat with BA cost considerably more than most individuals can afford, even with a legal cover policy.

Incidentally, what attracted some people to this job was probably some of the remuneration and working conditions that some of the larger companies enjoyed. That was not bestowed upon us by a magnanimous management in some fairytale; it was fought for, tooth and nail by those BALPA members that went before.

If you as an individual don’t feel you have a long-term future in aviation the fee is probably not worth it. But speaking personally and having been in this game for longer than some pilots have been alive, the younger generation need to stand with us and take up the fight to protect careers and future earnings. (Not to mention a decent quality of life) If you don’t then we’re all stuffed and it saddens me…but then I can retire in 10 years and watch in morbid fascination.

[clanger32]

Max,
I actually genuinely agree with a lot of what you have said in your previous post. I completely agree with your comments that all need to stand up (although "snowball" and "hell" are coming to mind for some reason....)

However, whilst you clearly think that defending of the conditions for those at the top end has been worthwhile, do you not feel that those AT the top end have utterly shirked the responsibility to look after those at the bottom end? Conditions have got worse and worse for new joiners, from first "pay for your own type rating with guaranteed job" to "pay for your type rating and we might give you a job" to contracts as opposed to perm, to pay to fly.

I think an AWFUL lot of the malaise that Balpa seems to inspire is driven by the fact that it ISN'T looking after the whole. It IS (from an external point of view at least) looking after the top.

I'm 35, qualified and highly unlikely to ever fly for a living now, but I watch aghast as the only hopes of entering the profession get ever more costly (last two years has seen any kind of scale recruitment costing the cadet in the region of £30k) and for what? a salary that's likely to be £25k?

I'm NOT slating Balpa, honestly I'm not....but from my perspective, they took my money as a student member and gave me NOTHING at all...No representation. The entry level has got ever worse and all the while senior (presumably in your case) Captains seem to be intent on holding on to the Ts&Cs that new entrants will never ever see. THAT is why you have malaise...
Do you feel in the face of that, Balpa have anything to offer to the new entrant, or indeed that the old faces have discharged their responsibilities adequately?

[max_cont]

Clanger, you will get no argument from me regarding the lamentable lack of action on P2F and the other cancerous practices that are now endemic throughout our profession.

Are the senior guys at the top in any way responsible for some of what has happened? IMO they are. It was far too easy to let the company (and I mean any company) screw those that had not joined the ranks for some temporary reprieve to their T&C’s. That avoided the need to stand up and be counted. In their defence they had the most to lose and the abyss of industrial action takes on a new reality when you stare over the precipice for real. Especially when it’s for those you don’t know.

We do need to address this problem with some urgency now. The longer we leave it, the harder it will become.

I won’t pretend to even begin to have the solution…but I am certain that this will only be resolved by co-ordinated industry wide action. IMHO leaving won’t solve anything. To influence the outcome you have to be sat at the table…and for right now that means BALPA.

I do know the NEC is aware of the growing discontent over this. Perhaps when the e-mails become a flood from all the membership they will get serious.

Good luck with the job hunt Clanger, don’t give up…you have invested too much blood sweat and tears to walk away now.

[al446]

As there has been some response to my post please let me reply -

To Paul Rice - I did not attempt to "front" BALPA, it was a generalisation about unions, no specific one in mind. Indeed it was a sustained campaign by TUC affiliated unions, of which BALPA is NOT one, which kind of blows your point 4 out of the water and decreases your credibility in my mind, that brought the full recognition to this equal pay legislation. Main unions were T&G (now Unite), Unison and USDAW, sorry if I've missed any. As an aside, the Act was passed in 1970 (under a Labour government) and came into force in 1975.

2. "Protection against Erosion of Terms and Conditions this is a BALPA failure not an achievement.". If you would like to give specific examples I am sure someone may come along and argue it. I was talking in general union terms, not specifics. I am personally quite happy with my union's defence of my conditions, perhaps that is because we have many stood in the wings ready to take over if need be therby keeping our elected officers sharp. There may be a lesson there.

3. P2F is quite legal and sod all any union can do about it. Sorry, that is reality, something that frequently eludes those with a bee in their bonnet. I wish it wasn't so too.

4. From the Guardian 24/01/10 "The joint general secretaries of Unite, Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson, have asked Barber to discuss the issue with Balpa, which is not affiliated to the TUC." Sorry for reality to intrude again.

5. There is another post on this thread which puts the legal mind succinctly along the lines of "I don't give a toss how much you have paid but your case is a crock of sh1t and any judge not beyond a coma would throw it out"

So far we are not doing well here are we?

To Bruce Wayne asking why have a dog and bark yourself. If you consider the dog to be such as the AA or RAC etc you would be right but it is the wrong analogy, you are not the dog but you ARE BALPA if a member, you don't join a football team to sit on the sidelines while they score goals, unions are no different.

If I have put the last part badly I apologise but hope you get my drift.

[Paul Rice]

A few days ago I asked if anyone could suggest anything which could be listed as a key achievement of BALPA over the last 10 years.

So far we have had many responses but no one todate has highlighted anything at all which could be considered to be a BALPA achievment.

Summarising the response I note that

Whyeyeman commented that we pay a lot of money to BALPA and get nothing in return. Whyeyeman stated that

"BALPA are a backward looking talking shop where everyone moans about how bad things have got with absolutley no culture of getting anything done at the fundemental level"

Council Van continued this theme

"It appears that BALPA are happy to take your cash but if you require any help from them...I would personally put them right up there with our greedy friends in the banking industry"

Bluelearjetdriver stated that

"BALPA are systematically degrading conditions for future generations"

Max Con got it absolutely spot on when he stated that

"The BALPA stick is small and firly limp"

Captain ronweb asserts

"What I am certain of is that Jim McAuslan has shared more games of golf and 3 course lunches with the trail blazers of P2F than he has written letters telling them he is unhappy about this trend"

and Clanger 32 notes that

"My gripe with BALPA is that they do absolutley nothing at all. BALPA is like having a dog with no teeth and having to bark yourself"

Some years ago I apllied to join TGWU but was told that TGWU could not accept applications for membership from pilots because BALPA through the TUC had banned TGWU from admitting pilot members.

Given BALPA's failures to perform would anyone by intrested in pooling together and making a single large block application to join Unite or another Union that might have more capability and credability.

[al446]

So Paul Rice states

Some years ago I apllied to join TGWU

Yet in earlier post states

BALPA is part of the TUC which is embeded in the Labour Party which come to think of it is another failing organisation.

I do wish he would make up his mind. TGWU, now Unite, is one of the largest affiliates to the TUC.

[Basil]

Given BALPA's failures to perform would anyone by intrested in pooling together and making a single large block application to join Unite or another Union that might have more capability and credability.
Unite? :}:yuk::}:yuk::}:yuk:
Excellent joke.
I'd suggest that, if dissatisfied with BALPA either form a new union (oh, isn't there one already?) or, together with a like minded consortium, put yourself up for election and change BALPA from within.
Unite? FFS! :):p:):p
Bas - ex AEU, MNAOA, TGWU - and that's the ones I can remember. Still a BALPA member. Don't know why. Must resign.

[emptyagain]

A spokesperson, of BALPA, recently said of the cabin air quality issue
"we are not a union, we are an association to further our members needs and salary", he went on to say that passengers are not anything to do with us.
Sorry that l can`t post the report, but l do believe that l`ve been accurate.

[Skipping Classes]

Well guys, this is a rather pointless discussion, because:

BALPA is run by rather clever guys who have more experience in politics/diplomacy than all the airline pilots in the world together.

Therefore they will never give you a direct answer when confronted with issues and will always keep a nice diplomatic tone and move the focus of the discussion elsewhere, just like max does. Those people are trained for that!

You can never win this.

Just make your conclusions and either shut up or cancel your membership.

When enough of us do that, they'll understand.

[Weary]

Paul Rice, Skipping Classes, Dreamshiner, etc

Max Cont and I (and many others...) work for an airline where were the active involvement of BALPA through our CC more than pays for itself. We know this because it manifests itself daily through our Ts&Cs, and monthly through our pay packets. That's a fact - but no doubt you are about to tell me that I am wrong.....

I read your embittered diatribes with some bemusement. You clearly have passion and energy, but you chose not to make a difference through the most effective vehicle you have at your disposal - BALPA. Tell me, which bit of BALPA-is-only-as-strong-as-its-members didn't you get? Or are you of that generation which trashes anything that doesn't provide them with instant gratification? If you think that ANY union/association is going to be effective without the need for perseverance, sacrifice, and hard graft, you are dwelling in La-La land.

Your calls for the "dissatisfied" to resign membership reminds me of Monty Python's Crack Suicide Squad - spectacularly pointless, and a cringing own-goal.

[Paul Rice]

For the likes of Weary and Max Con im really genuinely pleased that your are getting benefit from Balpa membership. Really pleased that for you Balpa is working.

But your experiance in your company or your sector of the industry is the exception rather than the rule. Perhaps you working for British Airways whose pilots have always been the most protected darlings of Balpa.

Most people will be pleased to hear that Balpa has done something to improve your terms and conditions and monthly pay cheque but your amusement with others very strong disatisfaction with Balpa smacks of an "im all right jack" sort of attitude and sod the rest of you approach which is part of the division which Balpa has allowed to develop within the industry.

Your unfounded charge (Weary) that critism of Balpa implies that someone belongs to a generation that rejects something that does not give instant gratification is offensive nonsense ?

Which generation are you referring to and seek to insult ?

What evidence do you have that Balpa has been rejected because it did not give instant gratification ?

Do you have any evidence for this crass charge or is your sharp toungue displaying the lack of a sound mind ? Are you the sort of guy that does not need a steak knife but cuts your food with your tongue ? As a BALPA fan your position might be invulnerable afterall what you dont know cant hurt you and to that extent you seem invulnerable.

[stakeknife]

I can only speak for the two companies I have worked for and can say that the recognition and subsequent membership increase yielded a significant increase in our T&C's. I think a lot of us would like to see a more hardline approach on lots of issues but my experience is that we all tend to moan about BALPA and blame them rather than be pro active and hold the company to account! Our managers probably love it and know that every degredation in terms they try to impose will result in people blaming BALPA and moaning with the hope that membership falls and de unionising is completed! I do hope that someday we as pilots will stick together instead of always putting self first??

I am sad for those who feel let down by their representatives, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and just give up, or we may as all join the ryanairisation that the airlines so desperately want to impose on us.

[gatbusdriver]

If you want a cure to all our woes Paul (Rice), take an overdose, it's the quickest way forward. I don't know why I respond really, is I've already pointed out.......don't feed the troll!!!!

As to the five achievements BALPA has achieved, may I suggest a read through other threads on this matter. As to date I have responded at least twice to the pro's of BALPA, but I see you are too lazy to search.

May I respond with a question (very MP'ish of me, I know).......what do you want from BALPA, an end to the erosion of our conditions (read P2F) and world peace?

It's ok....I realise you want nothing from BALPA apart from to knock it, I already appreciate you are the type of person that will not pay a penny to support your colleagues.

Maybe for one second, take off your bikini and look at the real world. Join a group of people that are willing to negotiate, yet at the same time, take time to appreciate the position that the company you/I work for is in.

I do not wany a UNITE style union, for the simple fact........they are not interested in me (the membership), nor are they interestsed in the company that their employees work for, I want a union for the here and now, and my money is on BALPA (from a selfish point of view, my membership is free, for reasons I have pointed out in previous posts)

I re-iterate....don't feed the troll

[Airbus Girl]

There always seems to be a BALPA attacking thread running on pprune just lately. BALPA do lots of stuff behind the scenes, but it is a pilot organisation and as such it does need pilots to volunteer their time and expertise, whether that be by unemployed pilots helping out in the office or experienced pilots helping out on one of the BALPA groups, such as the Medical group or Licencing and Training group. Unless you get involved with BALPA you wouldn't know just what does go on "behind the scenes". There are many fights being taken to Europe (and internationally) on UK pilots' behalf, but BALPA can only lobby to get things changed - they don't make the laws, and they can't tell airlines not to do things. They can certainly ensure they get involved with things - like when the MPL first was mooted, the suggestion was that new pilots would never actually see an aircraft until they got into the RHS of a jet, and then they wanted only a reduced hours PPL. BALPA's lobbying did help to increase the requirements, although they didn't manage to completely sink the idea because the CAA and the various companies intending to make alot of money from the idea were able to lobby and persuade the relevant people because they had not only the time but alot of money behind them. I guess if we all want our BALPA fees to double BALPA could do more.

BALPA also lobby the government about the ridiculous security issues, and hopefully these will continue to be eased - BALPA continues to put pressure on.

In the medical realm, BALPA again have been involved in UK and European legislation, ensuring that pilots are no longer grounded with every possible condition.

The NEC at BALPA have been working towards an agreement to ensure that no airline is disadvantaged by another airline's CC negotiating something for their own company's members.

There is much work going on behind the scenes - and I think that there are many ppruners who could be pro-active and volunteer their services to get even more done.

The working groups and the LOG board are all volunteers. There are full time employees at BALPA but most of those doing the work do it for free - so the more volunteers to help, the better.

BALPA could be stronger I guess, if all us pilots had the backbone to go on strike whenever any supposed "injustice" happens, but it won't happen. Pilots are a selfish bunch!!

Here is a scenario for you. You join a company and accept their pay and conditions. A few years later, you have the option to change your pension from final salary to money purchase. The company will give you a bung of money for this. Thinking of the £££s you decide to jump to the new pension. A few years later you realise that £££ in the short term doesn't equal £££s in the long term. So you complain to BALPA that your situation is entirely their fault. Justified?

Or, you join a company that doesn't have a seniority list. You are made redundant, quite legally. Should BALPA support you? Would you be willing to pay part of your subs to this person, if it wasn't you? Do you think they are going to win any legal battle?

I think we have to be realistic. Unless we as BALPA members are willing to be militant, we can't expect to have a militant union. Therefore the union can only get things done by negotiation, and negotiation doesn't always involve winning everything the union want.

[Piltdown Man]

Earlier in this thread, someone asked for BALPA's key achievements. From where I sit, they are as follows:

1. Seven additional pay increments for the rest of my career (worth approx. £8k per annum).
2. Virtually a final salary pension scheme with an agreement that will never be negotiated again.
3. A relocation package which worked when it had to.
4. A basing and rostering policy which has meant I have not had to physically move despite five base changes in ten years.
5. An excellent redundancy package (two year's salary), which I hope will work if it ever has to.
6. A respectable Loss of licence insurance scheme which I hope will work, if it has to.
7. Reasonable Death in Service benefits (don't tell the missus!). How that will work I'll never know.
8. A reasonable salary and allowances.
9. A voice (all be it a very little one) in the way our division is run.
10. Other minor niff-naff and trivia like medical insurance, medical renewals, licence renewals etc.

Now all of the above is very, very local. But it was negotiated by our CC with the help of our BALPA Rep. (Thank you Jenny). Do we still have things to negotiate? Yes, you bet and we won't stop. We won't get everything we ask for and every now again we'll get the sh1tty end of the stick. But we will eventually get something and we'll all share evenly in the rewards.

As for BALPA's behaviour nationally, yes I think they should be a bit more "unpleasant" but they also have to make sure they don't piss on their member's chips. Take P2F schemes for example. They could take the safety high road and suggest that certain named airlines might be dangerous to fly with as a result. Or that there are too many aircrew sleeping in cars in airport car parks, only to find that they have "dobbed in" one of their own. But again, that comes down to us telling the chaps in the office what we want of them.

So, as has been said many times before, BALPA isn't them, it's us.

PM

[Paul Rice]

Two thoughts with respect to you firstly why dont you keeping talking on the basis that you might one day say something inteligent. On the other hand why not open your mind and shut your mouth as both are empty anyway.

By not talking you can save your breath.... you will need it later to blow up your date, and talking of dates why not slip into something more comfortable like a coma.

Being a BALPA supporter you probably belong to that optimistic generation that plans there intinery on the basis of the Southern Region timetable and are so optimistic you can see the silver linning before you see the clouds.

Somewhere out theres a village has lost its idiot.

[gatbusdriver]

Sorry

Quite drunk yesterday evening, although I did appreciate the well thought out, reasoned response (did make me chuckle).

If you are willing to use the search function at the top of the page, you will find many previously stated pro's.

Kind regards

GBD

[Dreamshiner]

I kinda viewed this thread from on far in the past few days. As always its came down to a "You are BALPA .... " type debate vs. "What have they done ....".

I want a strong and unified pilot voice and therefore want a strong BALPA, its only because I want this and don't currently see that I am compelled to start a thread such as this.

Essentially I can take a few things from what has been written and am hopeful that everyone would at least accept that a great deal of the pilot community in the UK have following concerns (I don't share all of these but have listed some which I have read/heard of in the past few years):


I think a lost of people accept that BALPA does things behind the scenes that can't be/isn't discussed openly.

Address that some pilots feel the BA in BALPA stands for something other than what is official.

BALPA HQ and an individual BALPA CC are perceived by many as different entities for all intents and purposes.

I think some on here should recognise that a great deal of pilots don't live within an easy commute of central London and to suggest they get involved by volunteering isn't as easy or practical or financially possible.

I think a number should recognise that even when their own CC is punching above its weight, some of the others are not achieving the same levels.

If BALPA had a better or different way of disseminating information down to the rank and file then threads such as this may never start. At present their communication skills leave a lot to be desired.

Yes BALPA don't have the power to halt some practices, however they have the distinction of generally being invited by the BBC, Reuters, C4, ITN and Sky to comment on certain issues related to our profession. Why tend to wait for the ash cloud of a BA strike to be asked for comment rather than approaching these news sources and outlining issues that we want addressed. This costs nothing and its well within their right/duty of care to do so.

Why not release a press release outlining the practice of P2F in a measured and considered way, allowing the UK travelling public to pass judgement. Why in mid 2010 are we still waiting for any concrete stance from them on this matter.

BALPA could easily outline what they can deal with and what they can't and if so, why not.

Recognise there is a large and growing number of people in the UK who are unemployed, disenfranchised and not geographically placed so therefore can't step up to the plate as it is sometimes suggested they do.

There are currently approximately 50 pilots formerly of Globespan now flying for Qatar, OK they've stepped up to B777's however they are bonded and while and some are no doubt happy with the change some would have preferred to have found alternative employment in the UK. The former UK government via the MoD awarded a foreign carrier an ACMI to fly to the Falklands and no caveat on hiring any of the former GSM crew was placed on them winning the contract. Why did BALPA not intervene, if they did tell us they did at least.

I visited a BALPA jobs conference at LHR, I paid £70 for the day plus flights and accommodation. None of the traditional newbie hiring carriers showed up however Emirates did and stood up on the stage and delivered a lecture advising us how when we reached 3,000 hours we should forward a CV.

This TCX thing is yet another nail in the coffin for me.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel a lot of other unions in other countries fight for their nationals a lot more vigorously than we do.

[Plod]

I am not in the industry, I tried to get on the first rung of the ladder and when I eventually managed it I realised my life had moved on whilst the industry had gone down the swanny.

I work for an organisation where we are not allowed by law to strike. Any major spats are normally with the government of the day and yet we are protected by a strong Federation. Our T&C's have been attacked on a regular basis and yet we have always seen off the worst threats by using the public opinion of the day, the media, and a strong presence at conference and any rallies. Why hasn't Balpa and its pilot members managed this with the right to strike?

Pilots have been spoilt into a state of apathy and only have themselves to blame. There have been several posts where people have been told to change things from inside. Great sentiments but you have to rely on the membership to elect you to a position where you can make a change. That means ousting the incumbent who has probably got very comfortable in looking after his/her own interests. The other issue is that pilots rarely work with the same crew on a regular basis. Therefore each pilot only has himself to think about and doesn't really get the idea of being in a team over a long period of time. Stopping crews working together regularly might have prevented some incidents but it has also helped the airlines to divide and conquer it's pilot workforce!

I believe that it is wrong for two people doing the same job to be employed on vastly differing contracts. I believe it is wrong for people to have to pay for the chance (not right) to get some experience on a flight deck.

Balpa must do more to bring these issues to the forefront of people's minds rather than sitting idly by. Everyone that I talk to thinks all pilots earn £100k and can't believe the reality of pilot pay.

Why aren't Balpa at the flight training seminars where Oxford and CTC trap their next victims? They could help protect so many people outside the industry by warning them of the risks before they spend their money. I know some people will say that this is helping people who are not paying members of Balpa but if you cut off the flow of fresh blood to the cancer of P2F you will start protecting your T&C's as people will be less inclinded to enter into such folly.

[Weary]

Why aren't Balpa at the flight training seminars where Oxford and CTC trap their next victims? They could help protect so many people outside the industry by warning them of the risks before they spend their money. I know some people will say that this is helping people who are not paying members of Balpa but if you cut off the flow of fresh blood to the cancer of P2F you will start protecting your T&C's as people will be less inclinded to enter into such folly

The problem with that, Officer, is that the people employed in the flying training industry are also professional pilots, and they make up a considerable part of the membership. Cutting off the "fresh blood" would be cutting their own throats.

Also, unlike the police force, pilots are employed by companies that may operate in completely different ways, or are in competition with one another. Some may compete for passengers, and some may compete for contracts. Dedicated passenger longhaul, as opposed to, say, night freight, involves very different crewing practices with very different terms and conditions -and most of this is mandated by the regulations.
I think you can see that the notion of one BIG BALPA looking after everyone on the same terms and conditions is totally impractical. Nice thought though.

[Starbbuck]

...on the subject of BALPA and P2F schemes.

If BALPA membership is 1% of annual earnings, and presumably they don't exclude anyone from membership, then I suggest that all P2F pilots should be PAID by BALPA for their membership, 1% of whatever their P2F costs are. Since they are effectively 'earning' a negative sum, then their contribution should also be a negative amount, therefore paid to them by BALPA rather than the other way about.

No, of course I have no sympathy for the masses of self centred P2F pilots who are ruining things for everyone else in their efforts to jump the queue, but you can't entirely argue with the above logic, or it at least highlights just how absurd the whole concept of 'paying to work' is, and perhaps if BALPA had to fork out say £400 for every P2F member (based on typical £40K type rating plus experience package), then they might just start to take the whole issue a bit more seriously!

;)

[Dreamshiner]

The problem with that, Officer, is that the people employed in the flying training industry are also professional pilots, and they make up a considerable part of the membership. Cutting off the "fresh blood" would be cutting their own throats.

Also, unlike the police force, pilots are employed by companies that may operate in completely different ways, or are in competition with one another. Some may compete for passengers, and some may compete for contracts. Dedicated passenger longhaul, as opposed to, say, night freight, involves very different crewing practices with very different terms and conditions -and most of this is mandated by the regulations.
I think you can see that the notion of one BIG BALPA looking after everyone on the same terms and conditions is totally impractical. Nice thought though.

Valid points however countered when you remember that by denouncing P2F doesn't mean that integrated schools will suddenly have nobody to train from 0-CPL/IR/ME, therefore the jobs of their FI's are not affected by Big BALPA making a stand. P2F would affect TRI's/training captains in companies who pursue and recruit these schemes and TRI's at a integrated school if they have the capacity.

All that many are asking for is that BALPA put a case forward to end this practice, not beyond their remit or abilities I'm sure.

I think what plod was getting at, is the big industry wide issues affecting all pilots such as pilot unemployment, immigration, training practices and unity are falling below an acceptable datum level that many pilots are unhappy with. However if you have been in an airline for a few years and have reached command you are pretty much cushioned from many of these issues by your seniority number and older style contract that tended to favour the reward of employees opposed to shareholders.

Be aware there is a growing number of pilots who's careers have came to a bump in the road due to the various factors that tend to affect our industry (terrorism, fuel price, global pandemics, ash clouds, mergers, administration and the recession). This group is by and large ignored and treated as a top-up revenue generator (you receive £800 per annum from an average captain, however 24 unemployed bring in the same amount).

I withdrew my financial support for BALPA when my patience was erroded, just one omission too many. I felt there was no forum or place for my voice to be heard and my perception of inactivity in prioritising major issues while active pursuing of minor, easy to win battles.

It just seems to me everything is just too cosy at the top of this organisation.

[JW411]

Starbbuck:

"No, of course I have no sympathy for the masses of self centered P2F pilots who are ruining things for everyone else in their efforts to jump the queue".

I have now retired after half a century of professional flying. I started off from a very humble background with very little financial support. I joined the ATC and went solo in a glider in 1957. I then went through a lot of selection and got a Flying Scholarship (PPL on Tiger Moths) in 1958.

I was lucky enough to be accepted into the Royal Air Force as a pilot in 1960 after yet again, considerable selection procedures, which was just as well as I did not have two brass farthings to rub together.

I then went on to have a wonderful and rewarding career in aviation which has just recently ended at the age of 69.

Aviation is all about being in the right place at the right time.

However, I am absolutely fascinated by your statement about "jumping the queue".

What queue is that? Is there a law about jumping your queue? Is this queue laid down anywhere?

Is this the same "queue" that I found myself in whilst doing my civilian instrument rating at Kidlington at my own considerable expense (having been a training captain on four-engined aeroplanes and a Master Green instrument rating holder for years)? If I had wanted to join BA (which I didn't at my age), I would have been behind their OATS cadet pilots on the seniority list.

Now, if I had paid my own way through Oxford and had joined BA, which "queue would I have jumped"?

When you are starting to get your toe into aviation, life is generally sh*t. Stick with it and keep trying if you truly love aviation. If you are up to it and you are lucky then you will make it just like I did.

Good Luck.

[Plod]

Well BALPA have just lost another opportunity to raise awareness of the P2F farce. BBC news have reported that a think-tank, supported by MP David Willetts, has slammed big business for increasing their use of unpaid internships to help people get jobs. Their fear is that people from poorer backgrounds will miss out because they won't be able to afford to do unpaid work and will miss out on getting their share of good jobs.
What are the people at BALPA doing if they weren't aware of such reports. they could have made a spokesman available to put their side across and drop P2F into the debate.:confused:
Why is there such a lack of strategic planning and use of the media from BALPA headshed? I know there are only a few issues that can be fought at a national level but what's the point of ignoring the ones that you can fight?
Yet another dis-service to the student pilots paying their fees and those to come.
I guess the rich kids will continue to get into the industry purely on the basis that mummy and daddy can pay their way onto the flightdeck!:ugh: