More penny pinching - JSWOC canned

[m+m]

I've just found out that the Joint Services Warrant Officers' Course at Shrivenham is being shut down as of October this year!

The Course was introduced as one of the recommendations from the Defence Training Review in order to give Warrant Officers of the three Services an appreciation of wider Defence issues.

The explanation given for axing the Course is manning numbers!

Given that the Course is run by 4 staff, the manning and/or financial benefit from the cuts would appear to be somewhat negligible. When I attended the Course a couple of years ago the Senior Officers Course (200+) was away in the US for two weeks at the cost of £1M +!!

The Course is extremely useful and informative and acts as an invaluable vehicle for WOs from all Services to exchange information and ideas. On top of that guest speakers have included Chiefs from across Defence and very senior MPs.

I think it's time to hand in the towel!!!!!

[airborne_artist]

I expect there will be plenty more where that came from. It's not quite as bad as last autumn's ban on pay for the TA unless warned for call-up (which was only rescinded once it hit the press), but it's getting close.

[Grabbers]

I reckon this will be the first of many. As I'm feeling charitable I'll say I suspect it's an attempt by our paymasters to let the Treasury have morsels of cash whilst fighting to protect our capabilities. I'm not saying I agree with it - I wholeheartedly support the education at all levels with regards to wider defence issues. I suspect it's going to get worse. Wait until the expected pay freeze for all public sector workers hits the streets, this will seem like chickenfeed. :bored:

[VinRouge]

Grabbers,

you are hopful of a pay freeze?

If we get away with rebanded top rate income tax and a 5-10% pay cut I say we will be lucky!

163 Billion does not sort itself out without serious PAIN!:\

[SOSL]

Don't know what the budgetary trade off for this could be but it seems pretty shortsighted.

[Trim Stab]

Warrant Officers are just a bunch of REMFy blanket-stacking middle-men. Spend the savings on frontline Red Arrows and Typhoons - much better value!

Happy Kitwe?

[Grabbers]

VR

I am indeed hopeful of a pay freeze. I cannot see how any govt could justify a pay cut of 10% and still hope to profess the Defence of the Nation as their top priority. The thunder of boots heading for the exits would surely cause someone to wake up, wouldn't it? Now, it's not as if there is already an unofficial policy of nibbling the military to death is there....?

[clicker]

I work for the police and normally when you are regraded and the new pay scale is lower than your current scale they freeze you at your current level, You remain there until the new pay scale has risen to the one you are frozen at then you resume on the pay scale for the grade.

[VinRouge]

Grabbers,

And what would all those boots do? There arent going to be any jobs. The mod will tell them to pop off on their bike, as they would be doing the budget a favour. We are facing a pretty deflationary environment, excess supply and too little demand.

I dont understand how reducing salary reduces our capability abroad? We get paid less, doesnt stop us performing to the same level does it?

From where I am sat, we are pretty flush with bods at the moment, I cant imagine the retention issue to be significant whilst the next government are taking a scythe to disposable income and public expenditure.

[Pontius Navigator]

Clicker, we had the same, being military it was called 'mark-time' pay :)

Typically an ex-ranker, on being commissioned, would be earning more than his commissioned compatriots. He would mark-time until pay rises and/or increments took their pay up to his level. It could mean a year or more with no pay rise.

[Trim Stab]

I was being sarcastic...

JSWOC is money well spent - but instead of spending a few million on worthwhile frontline troops like JSWOC and TA (and indeed the ultimate deterrent - RN nuclear) we spend multi-billions on worthless projects like the Red Arrows and Typhoon. Nothing "trollish" about that point of view...

[5 Forward 6 Back]

TS,

I'm sure people have asked before (and I don't want to appear belligerent), but what do you think would be a better solution to our air defence needs than Typhoon? Bearing in mind the full spectrum of threats from hijacked airliners a la 9/11 through to Tom Clancy-esque rogue Russian bombers?

[Grabbers]

Trim Stab, if you need to explain it, it isn't irony. Just a statement.

5 forward 6 back, Noooooooooooooooooooo

[Trim Stab]

Grabbers - still head in sand eh?


As I have said many times before - Typhoon cannot defend against 9-11 type bombers, nor rogue russian Bears. They would not even be off the runway before the threat had been identified.

Only good intelligence can identify threats before they enter our airspace. The cost of Typhoon is many, many times the cost of MI5/MI6 and GCHQ combined. Typhoon QRA in their current form are profoundly misplaced resources as they could never react in time to a hijack over central London.

As for the Red Arrows - enough said...

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Sorry Grabbers!

I'm not an air defender, but I can't quite wrap my head around that. I can appreciate that a last-minute hijack could feasibly defeat our reaction times, but if they couldn't even deal with a rogue bomber or something, why does ANYONE bother with air defence fighters?

I thought you were going to recommend a buy of several million cheap F16s instead or something. What would you have instead of Typhoon?

[Grabbers]

Look what you've done. :eek:

[Trim Stab]

why does ANYONE bother with air defence fighters?



A very good point - we don't need them any more. We can't defend against last minute hijackers except through good intelligence and security preventing the original departure. The huge costs of air defence are best spent fostering diplomatic, intelligence and commercial links to absolve the iniquities and grievances which cause these risks.

[Archimedes]

JSWOC went as part of a saving demanded of the Defence Academy. My understanding is that it was a decision taken with much regret, but deemed to be the least evil of available options.

It would not have been saved by binning Typhoon, the Reds, CVF, CR2, FRES or anything else - not, given his grasp of the big picture (it's more a small miniature) that I expect TS to accept that for a nanosecond. :ugh:

[Trim Stab]

Actually the big picture is that we don't face any threat from a near neighbour enemy state - for which Typhoon was intended when the programme was set in stone towards the end of the cold war.

We do face a real threat from unconventional asymmetric attacks, such as (more sophisticated) 9-11 hijacks, or from proxy warfare by an unstable Iraq or Iran, or even a belligerent nuclear-armed Israel that feels that it has been cornered by international opinion.

We need a deep-reaching defence review that re-examines reality - not the opinion that has been entrenched into junior staff by those who wish to perpetuate pet-projects and the status-quo of dinosaur defence projects.

[14greens]

real shame that they are binning the course, some excellent speakers during the couple of weeks, and it was a very good way to get a better idea of how the other services work, thought this was what "jointery" was all about

Ah well

[barnstormer1968]

why does ANYONE bother with air defence fighters?

I will hazard a guess it is because they are not stupid enough to work on the basis that if they don't need them right now, they will never ever need them.

Britain has had this attitude quite a few times in the past, and oddly it always ends in us being attacked:ugh:

Still, maybe we don't need typhoon (even though we would still have to pay, thus saving no money!)....Oh, I'm just off to take down my burglar alarm, and unlock my front door on the basis I can't see any burglars this very second.....I'm sure no one will take advantage of the situation:}

[clicker]

[quote]but deemed to be the least evil of available options. [/unquote]


And that's a problem many others face. Not that long ago many promises were made to the police, then the mood changed and we were told cuts were required, in the case of my employers thought to be around 35M by 2015.

As a result courses have also been cut or number of places available trimmed to the bare minimum in order to keep the number of police officers as high as possible.

I suspect that when a current pay agreement ends the civvie staff will not see a pay increase for a while, but at least I should still have a job unlike some others facing the goverment axes.

I am myself strongly against cuts in the armed forces and I also believe that some cuts will be made that will be short sighted in the long run. at the same time I hope that no jobs are lost but if that means trimming elsewhere then I would go for that option first, to retain the most valued assetts, named your good men and women.

[Farfrompuken]

Barnstormer,

what's your address??.......

[SOSL]

The only reason we argue about the relative value of AD v CAS v Recce v Maritme v Strike etc etc is that we have been led by the nose by our politicos for so long that we believe that UK can't afford all capabilities so we should choose which we need most.

We shouldn't waste our time bickering about roles we should challenge the concept that UK can't afford to own a proper military capability.

[barnstormer1968]

Farfrompuken

It's 123 Fake Street, Sum-uvver Town,

Why do you ask:E

Deliverance>
I was tempted to post an answer exactly like your first paragraph, but felt is was so obvious, as to be patronising to most posters:}:}

[OHP 15M]

SOSL,

I think your point would make for a jolly good discussion, perhaps on some kind of course for Warrant Officers from the RAF, RN and Army? What do you think?

:ok:

[AED24]

Trim Stab,

I'm a WO and am truly disappointed that I will not be able to attend JSWOC in the future. It seems that the skill of stacking PURPLE blankets will be a mystery forever. Never mind, I take heart in the fact that seasoned PPRuners will continue my wider education by contributing reasoned, articulate and thought provoking viewpoints wrt RAF and RN requirements.

[SirToppamHat]

Back to the issue at hand ...

I note that IiP is about to hit my little world - now if we want to save money ... is there anyone at MoD with the balls to say what I believe most people think? For goodness sake, why are we bothering? I've volunteered to take the sign off our building (for free!).

STH

[Hoots]

JSWOC is a very worthwhile course and this is short sighted. But then why cut a little off the staff courses when a little course can be slashed altogether. The best part of it, i found, was chatting to the guys and girls from the other services, something that the single sevice officer course, barring the main one, were envious of.

[NP20]

JSWOC went as part of a saving demanded of the Defence Academy. My understanding is that it was a decision taken with much regret, but deemed to be the least evil of available options.

Excuse my cynicism but for me 'least evil' = 'easiest' and can be interpreted as the poor regard that WOs, and their development, is held in comparison with their lords and masters. Especially so when measured against the cost of running the many (and in some cases lengthy) staff & E&D type courses that are run by the Defence Academy.

Just how much has been saved by this decision? A couple of full time staff; costs of the visiting speakers? Surely T&S is covered by the student's PU and would not affect the DefAc budget. Poor call IMHO.

[Could be the last?]

If they wanted to save money then why not reduce the length of ICSC(L) from 9 months to <6 months! Would save a fortune by not having to post all the those Capt/Maj into Shriv. Mind you, if they can afford to have that many on course at anyone time, me thinks there is fat in their system!! Or is it that everyone else has been stripped to the bone?

[m+m]

For fear of sounding sceptical or cynical. There is no way that they would reduce the length of the Officer's course. After all it's nine months, includes a jolly overseas for a couple of weeks and, according to some sources, can be passed by copying other people's work anyway.

Why on earth would the system want to deprive hundreds of officers of this golden opportunity at the expense of JSWOC which probably only costs £250k per annum!

[circle kay]

This has now happed to JSWOC on 2 occasions, money gets tight; the DA must be seen to ‘do something’ and that’s the end of that. A very worthwhile course run on a shoestring; the most exotic the travel got on our course was a walk up to the rifle range for the firearms of the world demonstration. A very poor decision.:=