Italian with FAA License; want to go back...

[silo]

Hello everybody,

I have an Italian PPL (JAA I believe) issued over 10 years ago and also possess an FAA Commercial/Instrument/Multi with 300 hours approximately. I am originally from Italy and moved to the States 10 years ago. Got married, got 2 kids, got lost ;)
I'm about to get my US citizenship (I have a Green Card already).
I'd like to go back to Italy (will take the family with me) and get a job on any of the airlines in Europe. Anybody here done the same thing in the past and can offer some guidance? I'm trying to figure out what is the best route to take. I believe that since I already have a JAA PPL (Issued in Italy 10+ years ago), I can apply for Ground School (14 exams).

What is the cheapest and fastest way to do this? I have about 4 to 5 months time here in U.S. before having to move back; would it be better to move earlier and do the all process in Italy/Europe instead? I live in Los Angeles.

Thank you
M.

[Captain Stravaigin]

I am not exactly an expert in this - so I could be wrong - doubtless others will highlight any errors.

I was actually having this discussion with a German/Indonesian friend of mine last night. She has the full set of FAA ratings also.

I am in middle of converting some FAA ratings into JAA ones and JAA ones into Malaysian ones. It has been a nightmare.

My conclusion would be that the easiest and least painfull route is to look for any operator in IT using N reg equipment. Unlikely maybe - but check this out first.

As regards the Ground School in the UK you may be exempted from the compulsory bit as you have FAA ratings already. I am not sure what the rules are in IT - but one thing I have found out is that the rules vary a lot in Europe between different aviation authorities.

To cut to the chase you might find that the UK CAA is a better bet than the IT equivalent for a variety of reasons. Again to give one example (and this too is hearsay - but from an Aviation Dr.) I have heard that the German initial medical is slightly more onerous than the UK one.

Good Luck - I rather wish I had never started.

Cheers !

[MartinCh]

the waiver of ground school (ie distance with brush up sessions) would be for full ATPL holders, maybe with some multicrew experience. I can't remember the details of what's been talked here. It'd be in FCL or UK LASORS. Won't be good for someone with fresh foreign CPL. The advantage of having non-JAA CPL is to be able to do 'training as required' rather than full CPL module and with FAA IR, the IR conversion as minimum 15hr of training. Ie if good enough, saving money on flying without need just to fulfill the requirements of 25-30hr and 50hr for the modules..

The practical portion of conversion can be done either in the US with couple schools (decide yourself based on PPRuNe and opinions etc), or in Europe.
Bear in mind, that it's likely that you'd have to do the CPL at least with US school authorised under UK CAA or in the UK.
In practice, if you sit the ATPL theory exams in the US with CATS or other JAA theory provider they'd be under UK CAA (maybe except couple Arizona or Texas cadet integrated schools from the continent which are of no interest to you), you're likely to have to do the CPL in place that does practical JAA stuff under UK CAA.
It's not important for IR conversion, many did it in Spain, for example, with UK CAA CPL papers.

I sent PM to OP about the option of doing distance study with CATS (CA, TX or FL locations with their partner schools) whereas he could sort it from the US before setting foot to Europe, if he wishes to try his luck in current European job market.

That'd be in short. I'm not expert on this process, just reiterating what I've read on PPRuNe over the time plus my own research for later on. Tons of info here if you search or go couple pages back in the section.

[silo]

"My conclusion would be that the easiest and least painfull route is to look for any operator in IT using N reg equipment. Unlikely maybe - but check this out first."

Captain and Martin, thanx for your reply and the tips. I have heard that if you have ATPL ground, you can fly for companies like RyanAir for one year. In that year you have to get the "conversion" done if you want to continue flying in Europe.

Martin, I'm still trying to digest your info and do some research. Thanx for the pointers. It seems that the only thing I would want to get before leaving is the Ground ATPL here in US.

[MartinCh]

well, it'd cost 2.5-3k GBP for the theory thanks to the UK CAA fees, if sat in the US, it'd still be that or bit more, Aviation Pacific quote 91 bucks for each of the 14 exams plus all the other things.

Then, the MEIR and CPL, that'd be another xyz USD/GBP. Hard to put a tag on that. Then, for applying for jobs with airlines, people tend to have done the MCC course, 1.5-2k GBP.
Then, if you do the assessment and have spare 30k GBP, you *may* have a shot at Brookfield contract with Ryanair. That 30k is for 737NG type rating and 'more'. Well..

It's not just theory. It's about having done theory, CPL (the UK CPL LST charge is upwards of 700 quid already, plus all the rental etc costs), ME IR. Training in twins is expensive in Europe.. So you can put extra 15k GBP aside at least, if you go UK CAA route with all the stuff. Plus that 30k for the Ryanair gig if you are lucky. Or if you fancy, pay to work. It's been more and more common amongst fresh comm pilots to keep paying past their certs/ratings. Madness.

Consider all this. Then your family. Is there no way to get bit more flight hours under belt? Can you live comfortably right now in the US and do the theory? You'd have 3 years to do the CPL/IR after the last exam passed. No rush.
Just make sure you have enough money and non-aviation job to get in Europe for reasonable living while hunting for the job. There are way too many like that around.

Can't comment on Italian job market and their fees for ATPL theory, though.
I'd rather be Dutch, German or Scandinavian to have better chance at one's national airline recruitment. If..

I'd swap your green card in the US for, I don't know. Not much valuable I possess, hypothetically speaking. It'd be quite useful for my rotary training and job later..

[tony2F]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the one year waiver that Ryan gave was for experienced 73 drivers (captains) when times were a lot different than today, in short, in todays market, no chance what so ever with an FAA and 300 hrs. Its hard enough to get into Ryan these days, its certainly not the open door people would like to think it is. I see they have changed the entry req for cadets also, made it much tighter.

In short, do the ATPL's before you get here and build some hrs at the same time, as there is a glut of 300 guys.

All the best in your search.

[silo]

Ok guys, I got a clear picture now, thank you.

Martin,

I don't know about coming over here. You work your azz off and can barely make it at the end of the month. No time or money left for enjoying life a little. I know in Europe you don't have enough jobs and they pay you very little, so you still barely make it to the end of the month. But the difference is that overthere you don't need money to splat yourself on the beach and enjoy time with your friends/family, for example (at least where I am from). I guess the grass is always greener on the other side ;)
Thanks for the reply.

Tony, I guess I had no clue...I do now, thank you. The ATPL we are talking about is the FAA or JAA?

[Transsonic2000]

@ silo

first off, job market for low-timers in Europe (like in the rest of the world) doesn't look to good, there is an abundance of pilots on the job-hunt! Secondly, converting from FAA to JAA is a pretty extensive affair, in terms of time and money - many people (including myself) underestimate that!

Regarding your question check out the following link:

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/372852-faa-atp-jaa-atpl-merged-2009-a.html#post4910395

Good luck!

[MartinCh]

silo, well, I know the stuff, been to the US twice for long summers.
Just that my training/first job plans in helicopter environment would be 'easier' in the US thanks to the hours and money required. Of which most needs to be saved by myself..

[silo]

Thanks for the link Transonic. Well, pretty much any job you apply to today has a lot of candidates and very few available positions. And this seems to be true all over the world.

Thanks everybody for pointing me in the right direction.