British Citizen in another country's Air Force?

[MatthewV]

Hello.

Is it possible to become a pilot in another country that is within the British Empire? Say Canada or Australia. How hard would it be for a British citizen to join the Canadian Air Force, would he/she need to get Canadian Citizenship?

This is because of the RAF's strict medical requirements that I'm asking this.

I'm also quite proud of being British so would it be easy to get my British citizenship back after service?

Haha big decision just interested, thanks.

[charliegolf]

Matthew, It's the Commonwealth these days, not the Empire!

Yes, you might be able to join, but almost certainly not as a pilot. Most countries have fairly similar medical requirements for aircrew as the RAF. None of them offer a right of appeal, and they have too much interest from'perfect' specimens. (RAF pilots all think they're perfect specimens.)

Google for the armed services of the country you are interested in.

Finally, what about WSOp, depending on the medical situation?

Good luck.

CG

[brit bus driver]

Can't speak for those crims down under :ok: (but I'm sure DIff will be along soon) but to join the CF I'm pretty sure you need to be a Canadian Citizen; this can take up to 4 years. Another sometime frequenter of this forum may be able to provide more information, but I fear it will not be an easy process for you. I'm pretty sure you never lose your right to British citizenship but you may have issues in the long run wrt NI contributions etc.

[MatthewV]

I did have a look at the Canadian AF site, it's not very user friendly but yes I did find more lenient medical standards for eyesight (mine isn't too bad at all, but not to the standard of the RAF).

Can anyone confirm this? And Australia?

Thanks for the replies. Yes I understand our old Queeny's a little old-fashioned but I wondering if it was still possible!

[MatthewV]

Something interesting about Commonwealth:

The Commonwealth : Directgov - Government, citizens and rights (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/UKgovernment/TheUKandtheworld/DG_073421)

Commonwealth realms
The Queen is also Head of State in the UK and 15 other independent states, their overseas territories and dependencies. These countries, known as Commonwealth realms, are:
Antigua and Barbuda
Australia
The Bahamas
Barbados
Belize
Canada
Grenada
Jamaica
New Zealand
Papua New Guinea
St Christopher and Nevis
St Lucia
St Vincent and the Grenadines
Solomon Islands
Tuvalu

[brit bus driver]

Matters not what Wikipedia or Google tells you, to join the CF you need to be a Canadian Citizen. A buddy of mine (OBD where are you?) had an offer from the CF to transfer directly from the RAF but still had to wait for his Citizenship to be approved.

I suggest you start applying now.

Edited to say: Sorry, I've just seen your age and now realise I have come across as a grumpy old s*d intent on crushing your dreams. My apologies. If you are set on it, perhaps studying for a degree in Oz or Canada might be a step towards citizenship? Best of luck.

[MatthewV]

I'm 15 not sure if I can apply now? But the thing is I'm proud to be British, I don't think I'd want citizenship in another country. Is there no other country that would allow me to do this?

I may have to do this in future if I'm really wanting to be a fighter pilot (unbearably).

edit
Okay, thanks!

[Torque Tonight]

Proud to be British is good, but if you are hoping to join a foreign air force they will expect some loyalty. If your degree of loyalty is such that you don't want to be a citizen of that country, are you really going to be prepared to put your life at risk on the orders of a foreign government? I suspect that if you wish to be seen as prime recruiting talent then you may need to reconsider the implications.

Regarding medical requirements, a very good friend, Canadian by nationality, was rejected on medical grounds by the RCAF. He then successfully applied to the RAF and is now holds a DFC. Do not assume that the colonials have lower entry standards than the mother country.

Do a bit of research. Most of the information you seek can be obtained through the internet. Good luck.

[Aerouk]

I spoke to the Canadian Air Force when I was over there recently and the gentleman I spoke to basically said at the moment they don't accept commonwealth applications, however it's something they are looking into in the future.

I wasn't asking to join or anything, was just curious if they did or not.

[Pontius]

To join the RAAF you need to be an Australian citizen, NOT just a permanent resident. It is normal to gain citizenship before joining the armed forces, but this is not always the case, especially with experienced personnel.

As per the Canadian example, I have a friend who transferred from the RN (jet driver) to the RAAF and the Aussies sorted out his citizenship to enable him to do so. He was an experienced Hawk QFI and they needed some more of those downunder, so it was worth the investment of time by the RAAF.

Basically, unless your parents are Australian citizens, then the only way you're going to get citizenship is through having a skill that's in demand in Oz and, even then, that route is effectively closed at the moment for the next couple of years. If and when it opens again, you use your skill to get a permanent residency visa and, after four years, take the written test, swear allegiance to the barbie and then you'll get your 'Stralian citizenship. Then you can apply to join the RAAF, which has the same medical standards as the RAF.

In short, if you're already an experienced pilot, then there is a way to short-cut the Australian citizenship requirments. If you're not, then you'd better have Australian parents or a skill in demand AND be up to the medical standards of the RN/RAF.

As someone has already alluded, all these countries have plenty of applicants who fit the medical 'bill', so I rather think you might be clutching at straws trying to join a different country's forces in the hope they have lower medical standards. Yes, I know, miserable old git but that's the reality, and I don't going blowing smoke up people's arses?

[Neptunus Rex]

If you join the Armed Forces of another country, and you are not a citizen of that country, then you are a mercenary. Mercenaries are not entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention and so are an embarrassment.
Experienced servicemen can sometimes join the Australian forces, but have to apply for citizenship before being inducted. The citizenship is 'fast tracked' and will take three months or so. As you will be under training for that time, it is not a problem.
If you acquire Australian citizenship, you can keep your British citizenship and have dual nationality.
You will still be called a Pom!

[Tigger_Too]

I think you will find that Ghurkas remain citizens of Nepal throughout their service. I don't think that alters their position as far as the Geneva Convention is concerned. Is it not also the case that citizens of the Republic of Ireland serve in the UK Armed Forces while retaining Irish citizenship?

[MG23]

Matters not what Wikipedia or Google tells you, to join the CF you need to be a Canadian Citizen. A buddy of mine (OBD where are you?) had an offer from the CF to transfer directly from the RAF but still had to wait for his Citizenship to be approved.

Currently Canadian citizenship requires that you've lived at least three of the past four years in Canada, so that would be surprising if it was recent. I'm sure I remember a couple of guys on one of the British expats web forums in the last year or two saying they were able to join the Canadian forces without citizenship, but only because they had special skills that were in demand... I'd presume the Canadian Air Force has plenty of people applying to be pilots.

Aha, Google found http://www.forces.ca/media/_PDF/NonCitizen_en.pdf :

Canadian Forces policy states that in order to be eligible for enrolment into the Forces, applicants must hold canadian citizenship. The only exception made to this policy is as follows:

* are not canadian citizens, but do hold Permanent resident status; and

* possess specialized skills/qualifications the CF has need of and cannot fill with a canadian citizen; and

* do not pose a risk to any national interest; may only be enrolled into the canadian Forces if permission is granted by the commander of the Canadian Forces recruiting Group

One big issue would probably be security clearance; without citizenship you won't be allowed access to any 'Canadian eyes only' information.

[Dr Jekyll]

Hasn't there been a New Zealander flying with the Red Arrows recently?

[brit bus driver]

so that would be surprising if it was recent

As in the example I stated? I should have added that he'd been on exchange for 5 years in Canada, then back in UK for circa 12 months awaiting his PVR.

[dropintheoggin]

Hasn't there been a New Zealander flying with the Red Arrows recently? *


And a Welsh bloke?

[dat581]

One big issue would probably be security clearance; without citizenship you won't be allowed access to any 'Canadian eyes only' information.

Once you are part of a service in Australia, NZ, Canada and Britain you are also cleared for the other commonwealth countries. If a current serving person could shed some light on that (or dismiss it if not correct).

[L J R]

Once you are part of a service in Australia, NZ, Canada and Britain you are also cleared for the other commonwealth countries.

That data is inaccurate - as far as security clearances is concerned..

[DBTW]

The UK is proud of the Commonwealth and its laws and regulations reflect that. I know many Commonwealth citizens who have served with honour in the UK military without becoming British Subjects. These people have either transferred from other Commonwealth militaries or "walked into recruiting off the street." They are not considered mercenaries by international law because they are legally in a regular armed force of a sovereign nation which is a signatory to the Geneva Convention.

The UK is not the only European nation with former imperial interests, or similar commonwealth-like ties, who allow such service.

Security clearances are service based up to a point, so documents needing to be accessed by service personnel stating "certain nations' eyes only" can be read by servicemen from those nations' armed forces. When the clearance or access required is more specific, obviously the clearance to view needs to be more specifically obtained, and this doesn't have to relate to the nation of birth or citizenship. It actually relates to the process for obtaining a personal security clearance, which may or may not have nationality as a factor.

With all that said, unlike the UK, many Commonwealth countries place nationality requirements on applicants wishing to serve in their armed forces. This can simply be a statement that you must be a national to serve, and the justification for obtaining nationality can be as easy as being accepted for service.

The funny thing about military recruitment is that it is needs based, and that there are as many opinions about it as there are people on the planet. The only way to find out for certain is to try, and the worst thing that can happen is to be told no.

For anyone considering trying to make multiple applications around the Commonwealth, I suggest you start by writing to your local high commission for the nations concerned. As several writers above have alluded, you must have a well considered answer as to why you are not applying to join your local military...because you can be absolutely certain the question will be asked.

[A2QFI]

N Rex - I don't think that the thousands of Commonwealth Citizens who joiined our Forces in WW2 became citizens, they weren't regarded as mercenaries SFAIK and the Germans may not have treated them that well when they were captured but they were still entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention, at that time. Have things changed? I worked abroad for a foreign but "friendly" country and while I may not have had the protection of the GC I only had to resign my retired commission - cannot bear allegiance to 2 Governments at once apparently.

[Pontius]

I know many Commonwealth citizens who have served with honour in the UK military without becoming British Subjects

You sure about the 'honour' bit :}



(I'm assuming you can't get to the reunion either)

[Winch-control]

Experienced servicemen can sometimes join the Australian forces, but have to apply for citizenship before being inducted. The citizenship is 'fast tracked' and will take three months or so. As you will be under training for that time, it is not a problem.

British citizens (non Mil) can join the ADF if they have an Oz visa, but must be prepared to undertake the Oz citizen test within 90 days of signing up (induction/recruit training). Otherwise you're out; same is true of the Reservists. Basically after 90 days service you become an Oz citizen, (dual nationality if you wish) instead of waiting 4 years as a permanent resident first.:ok:

[DBTW]

(I'm assuming you can't get to the reunion either)

On my way now, just a few days late. I understand it was a great game on Saturday...

[Old Bus Driver]

I am the recent case (2008) that BBD referred to in connection with joining the Canadian Forces.
I was enrolled in the CF without having Canadian Citizenship but I did need to become a permanent resident of Canada prior to enrolment. A condition of my employment was that I must gain Canadian Citizenship within three years of joining.
The requirement to be a Canadian Citizen was waived in my case because I had a skill set that the CF needed that was not readily obtainable from either the CF or the wider Canadian population.

MatthewV, it is highly unlikely that you could enrol in the CF as a pilot without Canadian Citizenship. While the CF would like to be able to recruit experienced pilots from countries other than Canada (reduction in trg costs) they are constrained by HRSDC (Human Resources department of the Canadian government) which requires the CF to demonstrate that the foreigner they wish to recruit has a skill set which they can't readily find from within the Canadian population. They obviously could not do this if the foreigner was a pre ab-initio trainee pilot such as yourself.

MG23, Security clearance was not an issue in my case since I had been on exchange with the CF for 5 years prior to my enrolment and consequently already had a CF security clearance.

Neptunus Rex, Thanks for calling me a mercenary! I hadn't realised that I was serving without the protection of the Geneva Convention. :sad:

OBD

[Edthedruid]

I have been in NZ for 40 years and am still on a British passport. During that time I served 20 years in the RNZAF as a groundie. The only thing I could not do was work in the ground comms area because I couldn't get a security clearance (ya gotta laff). Suited me perfectly as it was the last area I wanted to work in.

The only 'problem' I ever had was, on returning from an overseas trip (work), being refused entry to NZ at Wellington by a little (short) immigration chappie because I didn't have a new-fangled re-entry permit, which I had been told by those upstairs I didn't need because I was in the NZ military. Wrong. There I was, in uniform (well, zoom bag), in a military aircraft, with a RNZAF ID card, on the crew list and carrying a British passport which had my occupation as "NZ Government service" and it wasn't enough for the little man. Eventually, after half an hour of discussion, he wrote "departed country under military orders" on the paperwork and peace reigned once again. Thought for a while that I was going to score a free trip to the UK!

One of my sons, also an ex-RNZAF groundie, on a NZ passport, has been in Oz for about two and a half years. He has permanent residency and is currently part way through the recruiting process for RAAF pilot. He only has to be eligible for Oz citizenship in due course, which he is. If he's accepted they can opt to fast-track his citizenship application.

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

Old Bus Driver,

You are spot on with the Citizenship requirement. I joined the CF in March 09, leaving the RAF at my 38 IOP, specifically to join the MHLH PMO. You can join the CF as a Permanent Resident (which you must apply for independently from the CF recruiting process) but you now have 4 years to apply for Citizenship, or face possible release. (Although I am told that due to the longer Citizen processing times that this is flexible within limits).

SC was an issue for me as I had not been on exchange prior to joining. I am still awaiting Secret Clearance!

I think that Rex's comments were based on the Oz recruitment system, which is far more slick than the Canadian system, but then again, historically the criteria to get into Oz was a bit more lax than the other parts of the Empire:}.

MathewV – Unless you can convince your parents to emigrate to allow you to join the AF of either Canada or OZ, I’d look closer to home. If there is much of an RAF left after SDSR 2015 (or whatever they are going to call it) you might get a shot at joining as a pilot after you finish university.


Canadian WokkaDoctor