Advice on staying current (Am I just wasting my money?)

[North of the Field]

Hey All,

Was wondering what people's thoughts were on staying current after finishing flight school.

To put you in the picture....

Basically I finished flight training back in Sept 08 (Integrated.... please don't hold it against me! - hindsight is a wonderful thing!) and since then for obvious reasons I haven't had a sniff of a job in the cockpit.

Since finishing I've worked behind a desk and been fortunate enough to earn enough to allow me to service my debt (I'm about the only person the low interest rate has helped!) and continue to fly regularly from my local airfield.

However having completed 55hrs SEP since qualifying and with my 2nd (airborne this time) IR revalidation looming in the coming months I'm starting to question if my method of staying current is actually going to help my job prospects at all.

Don't get me wrong I love flying light aircraft (I certainly didn't get into this game for the shiny jets or money (good job really!)) and still intend to use it as a means of keeping my basic handling skills if/when (I hope!) I gain employment flying. But is all this VFR flying actually helping improve my chances of employment with an operator? or am I wasting my money?

I'd appreciate anyones views on whether or not I'm doing the right thing or if I'd be better ploughing what little surplus income I have into other ways of staying both current and also improving my job prospects (and before anyone mentions it yes I've considered an FI rating but due to my sizeable loan repayments haven't considered it a viable option as yet)

[zerotohero]

My opinion :rolleyes:

No amount of C152/172 hours is going to get you a proper airline job!, it may get you closer to a weekend gig banner towing or something of sorts, but then that will not lead to an airline, it will just keep you current for free I guess :ok:

if you do get a chance at a Jet or TP with effectively zero hours then you will need to be current on IR and thats pretty much it, unfortunately the preferred route in now is SSTR unless your really really lucky to find a free one and beat the other 3000 guys who applied! but we all live in hope that the SSTR days will end and the normal route through will re-appear. :bored:

Again just my opinion.

[flyhelico]

my ME IR was expired for 3 years, just renewed it before the T/R...saved lot of money!

[North of the Field]

Flyhelico,

I had thought about that but I really don't want to let my ME-IR lapse simply because I want to be at least ready to start a TR with immediate effect (plenty of other guys will be and so to be in a position where I'm not I think would be further detrimental to my chances), my concern is whether or not I'm actual helping my chances by flying SEP as much as I am or if there is more I could be doing to make myself at least half appealing to anyone. Suppose I'm probably as stuck as I think I am!

[portsharbourflyer]

55 hours of sep time, assuming that you are currently paying normal club hires rates, or even at the cheapest club hire rates £5000+; you could have nearly paid for an FI rating for that amount.

It is good to keep the basics up to scratch, so it has some value, but consider the following;

Day VFR flying is quite irrelevant when it comes to completing a type rating and I felt my instructional experience was of little use when I did my first multi crew rating. However where hours are useful are for 1) meeting insurance requirements 2) For operators where the yearly totals are flown are low (corportate or night freight) a high amount of hours means a shorter time to command for a new entrant, 3) Some airlines do actually have a higher pay scale for a new entrant with more hours (eg: Cityjet)

So for reasons 1 and 2 you will need between 700-1000 hours, just hiring from a club, isn't going to build sufficient hours.

Some airlines eg: Flybe, BMI regional, do ask on the application forms about how many hours are flown in the last 6 or twelve months. Quite often there are looking for at least 50 hours in the last twelve months. So essentially you still need to be in a position where you are getting the flying free or paid for.

Single engine flying opportunities without an FI rating are quite few and far between (aerial photography, Scenic Flights, Banner Towing, Para dropping) even when the market was good; so sadly you are still going to have to very lucky at the moment to get one of these positions. Further you may still find some of these VFR single piston opportunities still need 500 hours total for insurance reasons.

Or instead of wasting money on single engine flying in the UK, save up and do a multi engine hour building trip to the US.

[Adios]

You'd probably be better off buying blocks of sim time, which is selling pretty cheaply nowadays as FTOs look for bookings for their surplus capacity. Even do another MCC or book a JOC. These are the skills you'll need to demonstrate when you finally get an airline interview and sim assessment.

[alphaadrian]

I would keep my MEIR valid but anything else is a waste of money in the current climate. Even the MEIR can be renewed fairly quickly should you get an interview should it lapse.

Alpha

[North of the Field]

Well I certainly didn't want to let my ME-IR lapse because I didn't want to get too rusty.

portsharbourflyer,

I'm quite fortunate in that probably the cheapest place to hire SEP in the UK is practically on my door step so I've not yet spent the equivalent of an FI rating. One of the reasons I decided not to undertake an FI rating was:

a) the market seems to be flooded with FI's now (a friend of mine hasn't instructed for well over 8 months now) so I envision getting hours could be problematic, and as I'm tied to living at home due to my loan repayments for my initial training there are limits to where I can travel.

b) Because I'm working full time at the moment it's allowed me fund my hiring in dribs and drabs as opposed to paying a lump sum for 35hrs which may not lead to anything.

c) I think (and I'm probably wrong here) that to do instructing properly and to make a good go of it with a view to building hours and moving up the ladder you really need to be able to do it 7 days a week, sadly due to my financial commitments I'd be unable to do this due to the poor rate of pay for instructing.

d) I do wonder (and again I might be completely wrong in thinking this) how much weight an FI rating with x amount of hours instructing carries with airlines these days, they definately seem more interested in people willing to fund their own training and because of this I get the distinct impression that when the market does pick up I'll more than likely have to pay for my own type rating (yes I can dream of bonding coming back but realistically it doesn't seem on the cards :().

[portsharbourflyer]

North of the Field,

Your reasons for not doing the FI rating are quite reasonable justifications; for the record I revlidated my FI rating in the summer of 09 about a year after losing my turboprop job. I haven't yet found any part time instructors work; however most schools will give preference to those they have trained themselves; rather than taking on experienced external instructors. Hence I do know one or two people who have recently gained instructors ratings and secured work from the school they trained at. Potentially it is in some case easier for the fresh qualifiers to gain work, than those trying to get back into instructing after a brief spell on the heavier stuff.

In answer to your questions, concering bonding; when recruitment start again, which it will at some point (when, 2 years or 4, 6 years who knows?) there will still be a reasonable number of operators where you will not have to "up front" money for the rating. Because pprune has an obsession with Pay to Fly and Flight International is the only public advert for flying jobs, then everyone seems to get fixated on 737 and A320 jobs via p2f and SSTR.
I notice you keep referring to airlines? Did you want to fly for a living or did you want to be an airline pilot when you set out down this course?

I notice you asked how much weight does instructing carry with the airlines, well it is true that certain airlines will give you no credit for instructional hours (ie: Ryanair, Easyjet). As I explained in my post there are certain operators where the hours are considered useful, Air Taxi / Executive charter companies (insurance reasons), Night Frieght (shortening time to command); well in both cases they are not concerned too much how the hours were obtained; but instructing is the most common way of being able to build hours in the UK. Although not much movement in these fields at the moment, when the recruitment does resume these companies will start to look at those with 700-1000 hours.

In truth there is no easy solution at the moment, so I can't really add much more to this post.

[northloughshore]

Nice to see a sensible thread!

Although SEP flying might not be the most relevant type of flying for an aspiring airline pilot hours in your log book show commitment and that you have sustained your interest. Airlines still prefer the candidate that loves flying.

There may be some value in occasional trips in a sim where with a good instructor you can push yourself to develop your IF skills and perhaps share the cost with a flying buddy.

It's a shame but it seems true that the FI market is saturated and aerial work jobs are as rare as hens teeth, that said there are cheeky opportunities here and there as safety pilots in king airs etc which may be better for networking than keeping current.

I'm sure nobody needs to be told to keep applying left right and centre to every single operator every few months with a covering letter, CV and perhaps a copy of your final flying report from your FTO (can make the difference).

Hang in there boys it will happen.

[North of the Field]

Portshabourflyer,

I suppose (as silly as it seems looking at job adverts in the current climate) that the airlines (loco, regional or otherwise) appear to be the only place that will (eventually/hopefully) look at someone who does have a low number of hours such as myself (240hrs). Don't know if I'm wrong in thinking this, but it seems that the biz jet avenue is even more difficult a route to go down (I assume because those that can afford to sit in the back would prefer a higher level of experience up front), I'd be more than happy to do air taxi work but I believe the minimum these days is 700hrs (which I can appreciate being single pilot ops usually). Unfortunately that does make it very difficult for someone such as myself who isn't blessed with a massive wallet to get on.

You ask did I just set out to be an airline pilot? the answer is no, I took this path (and I'll be the first to put my hands up and say that doing it the integrated route wasn't a good idea considering my financial position) because I wanted to go to work with a smile on my face doing something I enjoy be it flying whatever! As long as I'm getting paid enough to service my debt and have enough to live on then that's ok.... maybe I want too much from this flying lark! :E

[flyhelico]

maybe I want too much from this flying lark

no, it' s normal to be paid, even paid a pittance.

but the situation in the world is very very bad. Even in Africa, it s very hard to get a job.
renew a ME/IR take only 2 days. If an airline want hire you, go to the sim, and renew only the IR. you don't need to renew the muti engine rating.once you have your t/ rating, you don't need to renew the IR. only the t/r.

[timbutdim]

quick question on the side....Can you start a second type rating with a lapsed IR? im assuming the IR is renewed on the final check but not sure.

[portsharbourflyer]

Timbutdim,


A current SPA ME IR is only required to start your first Multi Crew Type.

If you already hold a Multi Pilot Rating even if it is no longer current then you are able to undertake a second rating without renewing; as a multi crew IR is type specific then once the the rating is complete then you are issued a "new rating" with it your multi pilot IR privileges are renewed.

Remember your MPA IR will not at present give any single pilot IR privileges.

North of the Field;

Correct Air Taxi work; JAR Ops requirement is 700 hours total time minumum which must also include 40 hours p1 multi IFR.
Insurance requirements may require more (typical 1000 hours total, 200 multi), that said a couple of companies have a concession to allow pilots with 400 hours total time (and this must include the 40 p1 multi IFR) to fly single pilot (believe Centreline Air Charter have this concession and Ravenair).

Bizjets: again as I mentioned it will be insurance requirements driving the hours requirement of crews; the punters in the back will have no idea what hours or experience of the crews up front will be.

N of the F, the only thing I can recommend as it is obvious at the moment neither a SSTR or an FI rating is available to you; would be if you are doing some SEP hire, make sure everytime you fly that you land away some where and use it as an opportunity to hand out some CVs to GA operators; you may strike lucky and get either some safety pilot work (as some one mentioned) or some kind of aerial work. There really is nothing else you can do until your finances improve and allow you to consider the other options.

[Northern Highflyer]

NOTF

I am in a similar scenario to yourself and it's very difficult to see where an opportunity will come from for those of us with the blue book but relatively low hours, the current recruiting situation notwithstanding.

I, like most people would be happy to follow the 'traditional' route gaining experience via instructing, then moving onto a TP operator, etc, but it seems increasingly more difficult to succeed via this route. Having read other threads on here, any such opportunities will be even harder to come by in the future for those who hold a CPL/IR with low hours. 3 schemes are currently being discussed here on PPruNe.

TCX are setting up a scheme where they recruit ab initio guys who then work at Flybe for a couple of years gaining experience before moving onto heavy metal. Eastern have been doing something similar for a while now. Jet2 'may' only recruit low houred people from OAA in the future. Although none of these appear to be set in stone yet (apart from the Eastern scheme) it's obvious that there will be less opportunities for the self improver. These schemes may only take on a few people but they are still positions I cannot apply for because I am not ab initio, nor did I train at OAA.

I also know several people who did the FI route who still went on to pay for a TR after a year or two because they couldn't get a foot in the door, with many saying that although the instructing was good, it was pretty worthless with regard to helping them find an airline job.