Beech 1900 with the cargo door open!

[Grizzly Bare]

In case you ever wondered how a 1900 would handle flying with that massive rear cargo door open in flight ...

Open hatch forces emergency landing - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10638022)

[Contract Dog]

OOPS! sounds like it happened on take off, yet they continued? big red flashing light in their line of sight escape them???

Dog

[SloppyJoe]

Why are some so quick to accuse the pilots of doing it wrong? Who knows what happened, maybe it was as they were rotating, maybe the eye witness got it wrong as is often the case. Most aircraft have no issue flying with a door open, maybe as I would they decided not to worry about it at a critical phase, rotation, and come back for an uneventful landing. Maybe it did happen earlier and they did not notice the light, so what, people miss things sometimes, just human nature, I am sure you would not have missed it.

[EladElap]

The cargo door open annunciator is one the red master warning panel on the 1900. If they took off with the annunciator light on, they would have had a red light glaring at them. If this is the case, makes one wonder how they would have reacted had they lost an engine, or had a master warning annunciator light linked to the engines go off.

If it was a system failure then fair enough. This to me smacks of complacency. When you secure the door, there is a little clear circle viewing hole to check that the door has locked. Even if it's partially locked it wouldn't have popped open until the aircraft pressurized. I was shown pictures of this, and the door is wide open just after rotation.

[Der absolute Hammer]

The internals of little viewing holes are sometime difficult to sometimes spot on walk about.........

The pressurisation on the 1900...does the aircraft have a manual dump valve so permitting the aircraft to pressurise while, eg, taxiing. In the other words, is the aircraft already partly pressurised before take off? Or, does it have the system of squat switches on the (usually left) oleo so that it only pressurises once the main gear is airborne and therefore after V1 Rotate? AIR this is the system of the B200.100.....?

[Mahoo]

Eagle guys and girls are probably the highest trained 1900 drivers in the world. How do u compare an engine problem to a door open master warn. PF would have called it and decision was go, good work! Never worked for them know plenty that do. What ever the case, must've happened at a fairly critical phase where reject was not a good option for such a minor event. Big deal a door a flew open. As someone said earlier get airbourne and head back for an uneventful landing rather than RTO and wind up with burst tires and freaked out pax. Well handled I reckon.

[Der absolute Hammer]

It seems to me..Ha ha!
That there is a very good chance it happened just after rotate as the a/c pressurised. If so that is the case, they did a cracker of the job cause it must have been a bit diverting I think even without the Master Warning pinging away. Maybe it was even a little scary?
But it is not worth talking up anyway. Pretty normal stuff and well handled no matter what the cause of the locks malfunction.

Anyway...this should all be in the Dunnunda thread surely....?

[EladElap]

Mahoo my point was that if the door is closed correctly, then the master warning annunciator light for for the cargo door goes out, and then it is ALMOST impossible for that cargo door to open.

What I had heard happened was that it wasn't closed correctly, which is backed up by Raytheon not having suddenly issued SB's to check the door, or the mechanism that secures the door. If it wasn't closed correctly then they should have had the cargo door light on the master warning panel illuminating the entire time. The only other possible scenario is that both bulbs had blown for the cargo door annunciator, or the annunciator itself was lose (as they often are).

This whole thing could quite easily have been the result of some last minute bags being loaded, or something along those lines.

As far as a door opening on take off not being a big deal. I really do beg to differ. What if it had been the front air stair door and it had then smashed into the left engine? A cargo door or cabin door opening during take off and in flight is a very serious even in most aircraft.

I do agree that it was well handled in the end though, and don't for a minute doubt Eagles training or crew standards. I'm just saying that this incident could most likely have been avoided.

[Contract Dog]

SJ, thanks so much mate, you have put me in my place and I will no doubt stop being such a c>>>>nt as a result.

in the mean time, while we wait for that day to come, a few home truths.

1.) a 1900 has C hooks, they are either open or closed

2.) if the system is working like it should, then an annunciator will flash in your face that the door is open, if it is, and if it isnt, well, no red light. And "missing" that red light is not a human trait, its unforgivable.

3.) if that was the case and the crew "missed" it (and 1000 hrs on type tells me another story, they either ignored it or it was not working (and a well traind crew like this would have tested it pre flight???)) then the crew were muppets.

4.) "most" 1900's and 200's do pressurise on the ground, for one reason only, and thats cos they are fu#$ed, they are not meant to, but they do, but also knowing this and knowing some of the crew who flew for said outfit, they probably only put the bleeds on AFTER take off, even this will NOT blow out the door at rotation. as pressure problems at rotation are gradual, not explosive.

5.) a 1900 door is part of the structure, its integral to the old girl staying together, leaving it open is a BIG deal with a capital F. the statement saying "good job to the crew cos it worked out ok, not a big deal" is horse sh1t.

6.) if the annunciator was NOT red, then engineering has a few questions to answer for the pure and simple reason that that door WAS open at the beginning of the t/o roll and they didnt fix this snag. (did the crew know it was not working? did they test it pre flight?)

7.) and if the light WAS red then the crew have to explain why they took off with an open door.

8.) it never needed to be an emergency that was "handled in the air" IT SHOULD HAVE NEVER ENDED UP IN THE AIR TO START!

one way or another, another incident that can only be HUMAN factors. and if i am wrong on this one, i will eat my own underpants.

Dog

[thepotato232]

A cargo door or cabin door opening during take off and in flight is a very serious even in most aircraft.When I trained on the Beech many moons ago, it was made very clear to me that the cargo door on the 1900D is structurally critical. If the door comes open, it will soon separate - destroying the empennage in the process. To paraphrase: 'If the red light comes on, land NOW, because you're already on borrowed time.'

That's how I remember it, anyway. Would any other 1900D drivers care to expand on/refute that?

[ftp]

CD, I completely agree with your post.

If the crew had been following checklists there is no way they wouldn't notice that annunciators illuminated. Also, most sop's involve checking the CWP for burnt out bulbs during the after start checks.

Before I saw that picture, I didn't believe that the 1900 could fly with the cargo door open. Even still, a door indication is one of the few things I would reject a t/o for right at V1. That door is huge, it's positioned right in front of the tail, and it is structurally important.

[maxrated]

Gotta agree with Contract Dog on this.

Methinks that the warning system was U/S and the door was down but not closed.

I cant see any crew deliberately taking off with a door warning light flashing.

[big buddah]

Would also like to say as previous post:

Everyones an expert on the ground.

Eagle Air is part of Air New Zealand, It is not another crappy african 1900 operator. Don't try and lecture me on this I have worked for my fare share. The crews there are some of the most trained and highest standards you could ask for in regards to the 1900. Prober sim and line training ATPL's etc
Air New Zealand was just voted airline of the year award, worldwide! You don't win awards like that if your safety,QA and training is crap!
So don't start presuming when it comes to matters when you don't have or have seen the evidence.
We can all say holy crap at what happened and pray we don't experience it but lets wait until the report comes out and learn from it, what ever turns out to be the reason.
The New Zealand CAA and TAIC will do a fantastic job into finding why this happened! Be it a simple door wasn't closed probably to structural failure? As the CAA in NZ is very progressive with safety.

These things don't get washed under the carpet in the real world.

[SloppyJoe]

So you know a fair bit about a 1900, I have never flown one and agree it sounds like a bad situation to have the door come open. My issue was the instant assumption you made that the crew were idiots. You know nothing about the incident like probably everyone on this forum other than a door opened during take off.

[EladElap]

I don't see what the issue with providing a few theories as to why the door flew open. Some of us who actually poll the 1900D would like to know if this was a crew or maintenance stuff up, or if this is a design flaw in the 1900.

The fact is, as has been mentioned, either the crew missed the master warning, or the master warning wasn't there, which means it's maintenance related. I highly doubt that it is a design flaw, as I'm sure there would have been some kind of communique from Raytheon.

Oh, by the way not all 1900 operators are dodgy boet. I fly for an operator that has contracts with oil and gas companies that have enormous hour requirements, and are audited heavily almost on a monthly basis. The maintenance is all done by the book, and our aircraft are almost always snag free.

Anyways, the point is I'm sure there is a valuable lesson to be learnt from this whole episode, and I'm glad to hear it won't be swept under the carpet.

[V1... Ooops]

The problem with this forum, and indeed with any internet forum, is that there is an overabundance of opinion and too little in the way of facts to back it up. It's also important to bear in mind that just because something shouldn't happen, doesn't mean it can't happen...

Jezza has made an excellent point, something that we should all keep in mind whenever a discussion focuses on an abnormality, accident, or incident.

There is no doubt that the simplest (the easiest to postulate) theory for any incident or accident is "the crew did something wrong". It's especially easy for all of us who have some knowledge of the subject aircraft to come up with these postulates, because we know how things should be done.

However - many, many accident and incident investigations have revealed that the crew did what they were supposed to do, and the cause of the problem was an uncommon failure elsewhere in the "system" - perhaps a maintenance failure, or a component failure.

Although it is possible that the annunciation system for the cargo door worked as it should have, it is also possible that the annunciation system did not work as it should have - for example, the door was not secure, but this was not annunciated to the crew. Mechanical problems with the latching assembly are also a possibility.

So, let's keep our powder dry and not get too passionate about defending our postulates until the report comes out.

[Mobotu]

During a door alignment check last year on our 1900, the SA mechanic was amazed to discover the door microswitch had been bypassed rendering it useless - as the cargo door is closed first and opened last knowone ever noticed. We do not know however how long ago it was "modified" - :eek:

[Stifmeister]

The B190 rear cargo door has 6 "C" type rotatable Cam locks 3 on each side of the door and 4 horizontal 3/4" slide pins that sit along the bottom that go thru massive strong 1/2' steel anchorholes in the fuselarge.

Should the cable operated Cam locks come undone (all of them at once I dont know how) but say a cable breaks and the pressure of the air on the door makes them vibrate around slowly the 4 massive pins at the bottom of the door which are put in place by a lockable handle and slide lengthways thru the big anchorholes will not undo unless the handle has not been clicked/locked into place. (there is also a pop out lock pin that has to be pressed in from outside to even move the handle into the unlocked position)

A vibration in a 1900 on t/o if the handle is not in the locked position may cause the handle to vibrate down and unlock thus also turning the 6 cable operated camlocks with it and presto door open!

If the door is open RED light at eye level is on (2 bulbs) so either it wasnt working and the crew didnt know the door was open, or they could have been on Com 1 Gnd pwr, not giving any lights on the warning panel untill the master switched on and if the door was closed cause the groundie gave the thumbs up they wouldnt see a light anyway.
Not sure on eagles sops about the bleeds, sometimes they can do a bleeds off t/o to maximise performance but at auckland intl they shouldnt use all the runway if they did a bleeds on t/o, its 200miles long!

[lilflyboy262]

I remember talking to a ex eagle air pilot a few years ago when I shared a house with him, I'm pretty sure I recall him saying they don't pressurise the aircraft. Most of the aerodromes they operate from are sea level, and the legs are too short to justify being high enough to pressurise in the first place.

[Stifmeister]

Jesus are you on drugs boy?:rolleyes:

Its the countries national airline (all be it the small plane division)

We have running water and power as well.

We also run pressurised aircraft too....
How do you think the heating in the cabin works?

Ill put your statement down to a bad recollection of your memory, or your flatmates tricking ya and you believed him!
:ugh:

[always inverted]

you guys crack me up...

The bleeds are turned on at 400'agl along with setting climb power.
The cargo door annunciator was defected the day before but unsure if it was staying on or not comming on, either way the crew had knowledge of this. The cargo door ANNUNCIATOR is deferrable under the co's DDPG (MEL).

The a/c IS always flown pressurised unless defected, the a/c has never to my knowledge pressurised while on the ground, relating to said co's a/c. Eagle always under 99% of situations carries out bleeds off engine anti ice on takeoffs.
The maint that is done by the company is first rate, the support from the co to crew is also just that.

The rest is speculation untill the TAIC investigation is complete.


To the idiot that made the comment about the crew not noticing a MW Flasher and the annunciator, kind of indicates that you have little time in an a/c that has these, and who on here would depart knowing there was an issue, unless it was cleared with maint and/or via the MEL. If you did then that would be operating a co a/c outside the SOP's and grounds for dismissal.:ugh::ugh::ugh::mad:

[lilflyboy262]

I'll kill him when I get back to NZ :\:}

[pyote]

The only thing that has any relevance is if the door popped before V1 or after. Then its an easy decision.

Big red light before V1- reject
Big red light after V1- carry on and come back and land.

Seemingly the latter option happened, and they came back to an uneventful landing.

Well done I say!

[EladElap]

If the cargo door annunciator system was u/s and deferred by the MEL, what were the conditions? I.E. Does it say on the MEL perhaps that if the system is U/S then the pilot/pilots must verify it is closed by looking through the viewing window and confirming that the orange arrow lines up with the line?

Not sure what our MEL states, but would imagine that it wouldn't just be a case of dispatch as a Cat C item for example, without another way to verify the door was in deed closed.

As I've said, there is a lesson to be learnt here, and am looking forward to reading the incident report when it is released.

Is it possible that this was one of the ground personnel's error?

[Nose wheel first]

The bleeds are turned on at 400'agl along with setting climb power.
The cargo door annunciator was defected the day before but unsure if it was staying on or not comming on, either way the crew had knowledge of this. The cargo door ANNUNCIATOR is deferrable under the co's DDPG (MEL).


Always Inverted, i'm glad you cleared that up for everyone. I was about to post what you posted then saw your comment.

I don't fly for Eagle (not even in NZ at the moment) but I do know both of the pilots. Anyone calling their professionalism or ability into question is way off the mark. Both are good solid operators.

As has already been said, Eagle are a professional outfit with very high standards.

[6080ft]

I second everything always inverted and nose wheel first said!

[spongebathbob]

To many heroes on this site flying the 1900....just like every other aircraft....you people make me laugh.....

[DaFly]

The only thing that has any relevance is if the door popped before V1 or after. Then its an easy decision.

Big red light before V1- reject
Big red light after V1- carry on and come back and land.Airline SOPs state:
compulsory stop after 80 kts / before V1:
-oil pressure low annunciator
-engine fire
-engine failure
-possible collision

Any other "big red light" does not necessarily call for an abort.
Accident history shows, that more accidents happen due to rejected T/O than due to a GO decision.
Pilots of slightly heavier a/c know, that beyond certain speeds, the ground is not your friend anymore.
A red light in the cockpit doesn't mean, you have to stop, it's not a traffic light. A red (= warning) light alerts the crew to a situation that might require immediate action - that is all.
I myself had to take off more than once with "big red lights" flashing, in all cases the Go-decision has been the right one.

Even though the cargo door is part of the fuselage structure (so is a cabin window), it will not come off if the a/c is flown at circuit speeds.

The proof is in the pud: the said a/c landed back safely.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Airline SOPs state:

Unless those SOPs are Eagles then it is, I fear to say, quite irrelevant what any other SOPs may say.

Even though the cargo door is part of the fuselage structure (so is a cabin window), it will not come off if the a/c is flown at circuit speeds.

How do you know that? For instance....
Is there an Abnormal or Emergency drill for flying a circuit with the door open at or below a certain speed. What would be, if any, the effect of flap selection on an open door and also--how far open?

The proof is in the pud: the said a/c landed back safely.
That is a big red light of a non sequitur I am afraid to say.

Just to clear up two things. I have never flown the B1900 and I am not a hero.

[DaFly]

Unless those SOPs are Eagles then it is, I fear to say, quite irrelevant what any other SOPs may say.

Well, since SOPs have to be at least as restrictive, if not more than the manufacturer's limitations, it shows that the B1900 is not considered to be un-flyable with a cargo door open. Otherwise, a door-open warning would be considered a reason for a compulsory stop, I'd say.

All very hypothetical anyway, if the warning annunciator has been inop and the crew didn't know, what was happening.

[Der absolute Hammer]

(since SOPs have to be at least as restrictive, if not more than the manufacturer's limitations, it shows that the B1900 is not considered to be un-flyable with a cargo door open.)

I do not believe that the statement is correct.

It would be more correct I think to say that the limitations incorporated into an operator's Standard Operating Procedure (and agreed and approved with the relevant CAA) must be no less limiting than those imposed by the manufacturer for the purposes of certification.

and the conclusion? I do not think it really works.

[EladElap]

Report out....
http://www.taic.org.nz/ReportsandSafetyRecs/AviationReports/tabid/78/ctl/Detail/mid/482/InvNumber/2010-004/Page/0/language/en-US/Default.aspx?SkinSrc=[G]skins/taicAviation/skin_aviation

[darkroomsource]

If it was a system failure then fair enough. This to me smacks of complacency. When you secure the door, there is a little clear circle viewing hole to check that the door has locked. Even if it's partially locked it wouldn't have popped open until the aircraft pressurized. I was shown pictures of this, and the door is wide open just after rotation.

Ever see the story about Hawaiian 811, where the cargo door opened by itself? FAA, Boeing and Airlines denied it for years, until one happened on the ramp, a 747 cargo door opened and no-one was around, except the people who saw it. No-one came near the plane, it just shorted out and opened all by it's little lonesome. Then the NTSB report was finally changed to reflect what actually happened in Hawaii.

Assume nothing. If you get in the habit of assuming things, then when you get into an emergency situation you will not allow yourself to consider all options because you will have already figured out what the problem is and be blind to what the real problem might have been.

And in the case of this incident, don't assume that a person did their job.