Drinking alcohol and JAA class 1

[Satis]

Had a curious question from somebody about to go for his UK JAA class 1 at LGW. He drinks about 4 to 7 pints on about 4 or 5 nights a week. Some body has told him he should give up the booze for about a month before his initial class one to make sure his liver is clear. I told him the complete opposite and said just don't drink the day before and don't worry about anything. But then I felt that my advice was uninformed and a passing comment from me could cause him to have a problem in his medical.

So I want to throw the question out to Ppruners......what do they test for and what precautions should be taken

[Ivor Bigwan]

You need to stop drinking a couple of hours before the medical or the eyesight test can be tricky, there again it helps with the urine sample.

[gingernut]

Your "friend" is drinking a little too much. The usual limit is 28 units a week (half a pint of boddingtons/carling=1 unit).
The effect of drinking this much, on a daily basis, is however unpredictable. Health effects include; raised bp/increased risk of heart disease or stroke/ liver damage/ weight gain/ depression / accidents, although some people seem to get away with excess drinking for a number of years.
In terms of the medical, I'm not sure whether or not there are any specific tests which would shoew alcohol excess. The standard blood test is the "LFT-liver function test" but I'm not sure if they actually test for this"

[Mac the Knife]

If he admits to "4 to 7 pints on about 4 or 5 nights a week" (32-60 units/week) then he is probably drinking more than this. Even so, this is far too much.

I think your "friend" should start going to AA meetings BEFORE his life starts to become unpleasant and embarrassing.

Edited to add: If your "friend"s drinking is at a point where he is starting to worry about whether it will affect his JAA Class 1 then he is already in trouble....

[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Mac the Knife ]

[Matthewjharvey]

"If he admits to "4 to 7 pints on about 4 or 5 nights a week" (32-60 units/week) then he is probably drinking more than this. Even so, this is far too much."

Please cut the crap - this guy is looking for advice not a lecture. Many people especially in this industry drink to this extent and just because some holier than thou doctor classes '28 units' as the safe limit doesn't make those that drink more 'alcoholics'. My advice on the subject would be certainly not to drink the night before the medical but to my knowledge (and I just had the 1st class nmedical) they do not test liver function and the only blood they take is to check cholesterol.

[Lucifer]

Alcohol in the system or dehydration from a hangover completely messes up the urine samples. Get it all out his system, and I think that it is quite naive for Greaser to suggest he does not need a lecture. His drinking habits are stupid to say the least: 4 pints = 8 units = 16 hours to flush from system...how much do you really believe makes an alcoholic? Not much more if drinking virtually every night so it never leaves your system.

To that extent they may indeed put others safety in question.

[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Lucifer ]

[phd]

This is a crucially important thread and I am glad it has been opened up in such an open and honest way. I agree that no one should lecture others about their personal habits - provided those personal habits do not place other people's safety in question. However I am amazed that after the 'Despatches' expose of the heavy drinking culture amongst BA pilots and cabin crew, and the damage which this did to both the individuals concerned and the reputation of BA and airlines in general, that the issue of alcohol consumption and commercial flying is still so poorly understood and controlled by the CAA, the airlines and the individuals involved themselves. We know people like to drink for all sorts of reasons, myself included, but surely there are some professions which are just not compatible with regular consumption of even small amounts of alcohol - amounts well below those that the medical 'experts' say are acceptable. We all know the 8 hours bottle to throttle rule-of-thumb and we all know it is inadequate and that after a drinking session, even if the alcohol is metabolised out of the body in 8-12 hours, the deleterious after-effects in terms of suppressed central nervous system function and dehydration, can remain for a lot longer - up to 24 hours. The long term physical, psychological and social effects of regular and heavy alcohol consumption are well known to all those with even a passing interest in this subject. The reductions in the quality of pilot decision-making and handling ability when under the influence, or when suffering a hang-over, are also well understood and can clearly lower the margins of flight safety.
To the individual who opened this thread - if you do consume the quantity of alcohol which you claim to, and are worried about whether or not this will affect your ability to obtain or renew a class 1 medical - I think you are worrying about the wrong thing. You should be far more concerned about your own health and about the human rights of the passengers who fly with you to have not just a sober pilot up front, but a reasonably fit and healthy pilot as well. You may believe that you can drink heartily and often in your leisure time and still arrive on the flight-deck fully sober, alert and fit for duty every day - but I doubt it.

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Pobody's nerfect.

[phd]

Satis - I beg your pardon for my previous posting - I realise you are not the person asking about alcohol and JAA class 1 medical but that you are enquiring on behalf of another person. I got a bit carried away.

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Pobody's nerfect.

[Mac the Knife]

Greaser, lemme ask you one question. Would you be happy if the surgeon who operated on you (or your wife or kid) was drinking between 32 and 60 units of alcohol/week?

No? I didn't think so. I sure as sugarpuffs hope that my pilot is not drinking at that level - I'll take another flight thanks.

This isn't "crap" and satis' friend got advice, not a lecture. I'm not "holier than thou" and I didn't invent the 28 unit recommendation. This is an evidence based Medical Research Council advisory limit.

Do I have personal experience of this? You bet. One colleague dead (suicide) after suspension then loss of professional licence and dismissal. Another chum 5 years sober and successful after very nearly losing it all.

If satis' mate is starting to worry about his consumption affecting his ability to pass a physical then he already has a classic sign of alcohol dependence.

Alcohol abuse is a serious problem that destroys many lives in all walks of life. It is a progressive and often fatal illness. People need to be educated and the subject needs to be de-stigmatised. Victims need help before their lives (and those of others) are irretrievably damaged.

[Ivor Bigwan]

Oh dear Fishbed, you've obviously not met many military pilots. Most of us need a drink or two considering the amount of wars our politicians invite us to partake in over the years. Mind you ramadan is a bit of a bummer but there's always drugs I suppose....

[NewBloke]

Not wishing to worry you, but the old fella you see at the end of the medical seemed a little concerned with my alcohol consumption - and I only stated 25 units a week !! (Ok...and that was probably a modest estimate too). He wasn't too bothered, just said "...Hmmm... you enjoy a pint then do you.." with a concerned look on his face. I don't think they specifically check for liver function, but as others have said, over time it can influence BP & heart rate etc..which can of course cost you your licence. I enjoy a good booze up like the average man - but your mate is a budding Olly Reed. 60 units a week !! Tell him to cut down to at least 30 units otherwise he could risk it with other health problems.

[IcePack]

Funny old subject this. All the above being valid. When I started flying commercial Capts. would often have a scotch on the last sector. Others would have a "sharpner" before doing a check ride. But mostly in years past a drinking culture seemed to be used as an unwind/stress reliever. I wonder if in future we may see more stress related problems in our proffession.
Also with modern a/c and the aviation enviroment one certainly needs to be sharp and fit. I agree alchol consuption is not a way to achieve that end. Your friend should think carefully before coming into this proffession as he will have a lot more access to alcohol and a lot of "Lonely" nights in hotels to come.
The statistics of commercial aviation accidents still are neglegable with reference to alchohol.
Anyway wish your mate good luck.

[Satis]

Wow. There are some suspicious people out there, aren't there.

Fishbed, no worries, easy mistake to make. I reread my posting wondering what question I actually asked!!..and funny enough it still reads the same...some strange answers though!! Thanks to those who answered the question asked.

Anyway, to alieve suspicions, I am a teetotaller, which is why I thought I would ask for "ADVICE" rather than give the guy my rubbish opinions. This guy is no different from anyone I am flying with on a regular basis, except....he is not a pilot YET. His drinking habits are normal for flight crew. I know....I get to sit in the bar sober watching it all while down route. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying there is a problem with pilots drinking. In fact, I can safely say I don't see any problems with the level of drink v safety/performance.

Now I am getting sucked into discussing what I didn't want to disuss!! Greaser/ice pack, your advice seems to be sound. If you say don't drink for the day before, then I think he should make it a week to be certain. If they only check for cholesteral then they will not pick up his years of drinking above average. Thanks.

I think I'll take up drinking after reading all these replies :D :D :D :D

[2daddies]

If your friend doesn't fancy reducing his alcohol intake but still wants a career in aviation, I suggest he moves to Papua New Guinea.

It's a horrible place, dangerous to fly in and a million miles from anywhere resembling civilisation but the ramifications for drink-flying are negligible.

In fact a sober pilot in PNG is often looked upon suspiciously!

It's one of the many reasons I left :D