MT GPS fleet trackers?

[stickjocky]

anyone else noticed the little black box in the corner of the windscreen on MT astras thats been installed recently? Im just wondering if anyone knows what they do and who they report too. They have 3 LEDs on them, green, orange if your naughty, and red if your very naughty (speed wise it seems). the MT staff dont seem to know anything about them either. :hmm:

[WE992]

I read somewhere on the intranet recently that they are being fitted to about 4000 vehicles accross all 3 services at a cost of about £5m in some project to monitor how service vehicles are driven.

[stickjocky]

nice to know our government feels it needs to spend 5m because they dont trust their own armed forces with diesel hatchbacks! However it doesn't surprise me...

[r supwoods]

And if you try and pull them off screen the hazard lights flash .....

[dropintheoggin]

By all accounts they monitor acceleration, braking and steering and indicate on the dash 'traffic light' system how erratically you're driving.

Still green at 84 mph t'other day though....

[cooheed]

Dogsiht system. You can be doing 60 in a 30 and it will still show green. Woe betide if you sit at 80 on a motorway though. Bad boy red. Sat in traffic on the M1 after hitting the usual block, amber moderate risk for 15 minutes as I crept forward at 2 mph before it went green.

[StopStart]

Ideally you'd want some sort of portable GPS jammer. No idea where you'd find such a thing (http://www.chinavasion.com/product_info.php/pName/covert-portable-gps-jammer/).

Can't say I'm massively bothered by this sort of thing in principle. I do however object to our bankrupt little air force prioritising what little money we have on irrelevant schemes like this when certain Aircraft fleets are scrabbling around for every penny they can. £5M would fill a lot of operational gaps we currently have. Well done to the "support" services - another winner.

:rolleyes:

[BEagle]

Stoppers, old chum, could you please delete that link in your post.

The reason I ask is that it includes some very nasty toys, such as powerful green la.sers......

Although the idea of a portable device which jams all cellphones within a 10m radius does sound as though it could make journeys on the choo-choo rather less tedious.....:hmm:

Talking of choo-choos, I happened to see* The Bristolian chuffing along yesterday headed by a Castle class locomotive. Brilliant sight - I hadn't seen that for about 50 years!






*OK, OK - actually I knew about it and drove to a good vantage point to wait for it! And no, I didn't have my jam sandwiches, school exercise book, bic pen, Ian Allan guide and orange cagoule!

[goudie]

And no, I didn't have my jam sandwiches, school exercise book, bic pen, Ian Allan guide and orange cagoule!
:8
Oh yes you did Beagle

With this newfangled black box, staff will be needed to analyse the contents and dish out floggings as required. A handy job for some poor ex-servicemen, who didn't get a pension increase!

[BEagle]

Just for you, goudie:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/CopyofBristolian850x475.jpg

Not a very good photo as I was looking almost due south at 1300BST...

You're right about spending priorities though - £5M on these systems seems profligate. Is this a 'spend to save' initiative? Is the data recovered and analysed?

All part of nuLabor's surveillance society.....

[goudie]

Thank you Beagle. Now that was a good vantage point

[Blighter Pilot]

There is a button by the ignition barrel which turns the system off, rumour has it!:ok:

[Whenurhappy]

BEagle,

What a great picture. Not a spotter, but one who appreciates Britain's heritage - I'm afraid the (Italian) Pendolinos and the various other 'foreign' makes on our tracks just don't stir either the emotions or the imagination!

NZWP

[struggle]

Word has it that they actually monitor your whereabouts including what road you are on/have been on. MTO receives a list each month of those naughty boys and girls exceeding authorised distance, straying off track and speed limit. Resulting in a meeting positive cap, negative tea, negative biscuits.

Apparently a former WO at a particular green and pointy training establishment instigated the system in his fleet. Deemed so successful in the higher echelons it was adopted across the rest of the Service and by the other two as well.

Struggle

[mad_jock]

I have been through one of these fleet driver managment thing's using the boxes.

Some have a gps others don't, they have a accelerometer and also sometimes a 3G sim card to send the data.

The lorry fleet was about 50 units and the boxes were installed, bitched about then ignored. After a month a bloke turned up with a laptop and plugged it into your engine managment system. Then let you drive for a bit. Then he drove for a bit. You then had a look at fuel burns through a range of gears etc etc. Then he got you to drive in his style and you had another look at the laptop. The up side was that all the new units that came in were the highest powered beasts on the market. Something to do with smaller engines having to have the turbo kicked in all the time where as the larger engine could sit with it out most of the time. The extra 20k for the larger engine was covered in 4 months of operating.

Result was after 2 months the fuel bill was decreased by 15% and 3 people arrested for stealing fuel.


Whats the fuel bill for the three services?

[Could be the last?]

It is my understanding that by 'law' if you are being monitored or data is being taken from you, as an individual, that you have to be informed? If it is a trial, you also have to give agreement to participate.

Look at the white fleet vehicles that have a tachograph fitted, there should be a white sticker telling you that data is being recorded.

Big Brother is watching.............:mad:

[charliegolf]

If it is a trial, you also have to give agreement to participate.


I clearly remember a number of 230 aircrew in the 80s getting very exercised by the introduction of blood tests into the annual medical.

Much "They can't do this to us, we have rights" was going on in the crewroom. I seem to recall that the 2i/c was Boss at the time, due to an indiscretion on the part of the actual Boss.

On hearing the whiney noises, Pete C simply 'edicted', "OK, no jab, no medical cat. No cat, no fly, no fly no flying pay".

Problem solved. Seemingly it's not a democracy (or wasn't).

CG

[BEagle]

It wasn't the blood test as such (although the early 'manual' syringes were very unpleasant), it was the fact that you were forced to sign a piece of paper consenting to the test.....in order to get the medical mafia off the hook of 'assault'.

Easy solution, amend the piece of paper, then sign... Jobza!!

[Could be the last?]

Charlie G,

It is interesting that you mention 230......Reading back through the thread it is with great sadness that, if the system had spent a fraction of the money introducing this trial on a decent harness for one of the crewman 3 years ago, then 230, the RAF, his wife and most importantly his children wouldn't have lost a good man.

If all the system is trying to achieve is a few pounds saving diesel, then I'm glad to see we have a priorities in the right place.:ugh:

RIP Mac.

[charliegolf]

.....in order to get the medical mafia off the hook of 'assault'.



Of course, I had forgotten the 'assault' charge. That's what the first smart arses threatened as an out. The result was the same in the end.

CBTL I've given up trying to rationalise these things!

CG

[Mr C Hinecap]

I feel for you lot - I really do - its tough isn't it? Just step back and try to see the bigger picture will you?

RTAs kill more people in the MoD than die on ops - every year.

MT is some massive cost to the MoD every year to pay for the damage, accidents and compensation. I'll post up the figures when I get them.

Something that costs so little (in the big scheme of costs) that could modify behavior and perhaps save lives is a good thing.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Not got the latest to hand but:

During 2008 a total of 5,634 global on-duty Road traffic Accidents (RTAs) were reported to the IMPACT Data Cell at DE&S Andover.

The estimated losses due to these accidents, as a 5 year average, is £132.21m.

So - is a road safety initiative is about helping drivers to drive better a bad thing?

[Wrathmonk]

a 5 year average, is £132.21m

Sort of puts the £5m pa cost into perspective. You can almost hear the chuntering from the crusty old armchairs - "Yeah but no but but yeah but"!

There are always alternatives to using MT .... :E

[StopStart]

Ah yes, damn lies & statistics. I would hazard that £132M pa in RTAs is not down to the sqn car doing 80 on the M4 but more to do with Challenger tanks falling off low loaders or 432s going through garden fences.

Still, churn out a big shiny powerpoint presentation and some big, meaningless numbers and bob's yer uncle. Trebles, as the Eye would say, all round.
:hmm:

(PS. if I'm wrong and we are in fact wiping out nearly 9000 £15000 cars a year then could I suggest the £5M would be better spent on driving lessons?)

[barnstormer1968]

During 2008 a total of 5,634 global on-duty Road traffic Accidents (RTAs) were reported to the IMPACT Data Cell at DE&S Andover.

Out of interest, were these only RTA's, or is this a mix of RTA's and RTC's, as this would make a huge difference to what is made from the figure you have put up. Oh, does this figure only relate to on road accidents too, or are off roads figures part of the overall sum?

I only ask, as I remember in one day on one operation, and in only one squadron, 20 accidental damages occured! None were on a public road, and only one involved two vehicles (both were MOD/army owned).
It's odd, but when driving off road and in the dark with no lights, little bumps can happen. The cost is huge, and to show lights would be tactically stupid, or possibly lethal!

It would also be worth remembering some some MOD vehicles are very old, and can go wrong quite often and quite badly, and having a black box would make no difference to that at all.

The overall cost seems high, but then the MOD must rank as one of the worlds largest wasters of money, with it costing approx £150 to change a lightbulb (I could do it for about £7 inc labour)!

Just my two penneth

[airborne_artist]

I could do it for about £7 inc labour

Bet you couldn't. You'd need a working at heights certificate, insurance (employees) insurance (public liability) insurance (in case you break the airfield), insurance (vehicle), envelope, brown (bung for the use of), ISO 9001 certification, manuals, statements, equal ops monitoring, maternity pay, paternity pay, equal ops training, an HR department to monitor all the training, a Risk department to manage all the insurances, a Finance Director to stuff the brown envelope, a sales guy to hand over the brown envelope, a marketing guy to decide to buy the box at Ascot/Wimbledon/Glyndebourne, and then a guy to drive the van, take the lamp from the box and do the job.

It's not as simple as it looks, changing bulbs :E

[Canadian Break]

Airborne Artist
Absolutely bloody priceless! Why should Britain tremble with humour like that.......... what do you mean.......... 'it's not humour?'
Regards
CB

[frodo_monkey]

Anyhow, back to the thread... Do these trackers have any form of download ability for me to size up the competition?

My personal record for a generic 'MT'-spec silver coloured Astra diesel estate is 116mph, can anyone trump that?

Note to all handwringing lefty liberals, this was on an unrestricted autobahn and not outside a school...

[airborne_artist]

My personal record for a generic 'MT'-spec silver coloured Astra diesel estate is 116mph

Forget the speed, more importantly, did the tyres last the day? :E

[Gnd]

There are cases of people being identified as 'red' on a number of occations and loosing the use of MoD cars - true!!!!

[minigundiplomat]

There are cases of people being identified as 'red' on a number of occations and loosing the use of MoD cars - true!!!!


That would save me sitting behind the wheel of a naff vehicle for hours in slow moving traffic, with Radio 3 programmed into every preset. I could just have a driver, an ipod, and a snooze.

[Mr C Hinecap]

StopStart - I'd bet (having been responsible for road safety in at least 6 different countries) that most of the accidents and most of the cost attributable was in white fleet and on the public highway. Seeing as the MoD insures itself, the cost is rather higher than you and your own motor - compensation etc.

barnstormer - argue the toss all you want - most of the vehicles are fairly modern and most of the older specialist vehicles are driven by professional drivers who have more training and higher consequences if it goes wrong. Most of those older vehicles are not the problem - the white fleet is.

I will, however, go to the far end of a fart and try to get more numbers for you doubters tomorrow. You're the same crowd who can always do the job better than me regardless - but I will maintain my demure demeanor and humour you once more.

[barnstormer1968]

AA

I still think I can do it for that price, as that is part of one of my jobs already,
so I already have the qualifications for that. Oddly, it nearly is just as simple as
changing a bulb (in the real, non jobsworth world).

The sad part (and something you left out of your monologue) is that all the things
you mention are only needed as a fee would be charged.......If I were to do it
for free, as you would in your own home, then none of those would be needed.

It is the same if I were to work on gas. Even though I am trained on gas work,
and well qualified on it, and have many years experience too, I am not deemed
to be safe with gas (but only if I charge) until I pay a private body (who give me
no training, but will give me some stickers).

You also forgot I would need a PRS licence, as I would want to listen to my
radio as I changed the bulb!

Oh, and to be registered with data protection, as my records would be on PC!

If this were a joke, it would be very funny.............You know, some folks who
say we live in rip off Britain may be on to something:}

[AllTrimDoubt]

My personal record for a generic 'MT'-spec silver coloured Astra diesel estate is 116mph


126mph in similar vehicle. Just to say I'd matched Mallard.
(One for you BEagle, now that you are outed) :E

[BEagle]

Mallard - yes indeed!

Actually I'm with Mr C Hinecap on this issue. The number of idiots who think that they can treat MT vehicles as some type of racing car is ridiculous. Then the next poor sod who gets to use the thing wonders why it rattles and shakes....

Although MT Flt are not entirely blameless. I recall the dreadful Chevette estate with a broken drivers seat I was once given for a day long journey to Dorset, the Mini I was given for a trip to London which had no rear view mirror ("It's on demand, Sir!") and the utterly dreadful Cavalier I was given to collect 2 important Americans from London Airport which had violent steering shake at anything more than 50 on the M4.

Given the choice, I always asked to use my own car rather than having to use something from MT which had probably been caned by someone else.

I'm not surprised that there's so much MT carnage - and to identify and punish the abusers seems eminently sensible.

Mind how you go!

[Mr C Hinecap]

Percentage of total accidents by vehicle type - these are the headlines - all other types are down in the >2% category. These are from the 2008 report:

Motorcycle 0.48%
Car Saloons 36.12%
Mini Buses 10.51%
Motor Coaches 3.19%
Vans 11.63%
TUM/TUL 10.95%
TUMHD 0.46%
4 tonne 3.83%
8 tonne 0.50%
Other Cargo Vehicles 8.96%

So you can see the majority of accidents are on the road.

From the same report, for the conspiracy theorists:

An Electronic Driver Assistance Programme will begin in 2009 which aims to use onboard feedback technology in 5000 mainly White Fleet MOD vehicles
to offer drivers visual real-time information about their driving performance. The telemetric type equipment will capture information from the vehicle about braking, cornering, acceleration and speed. This will then instantly analyse the data to determine a risk level of the particular driving action, or the overall journey. Transport Managers will be able to view this information via a website allowing managers to consider if any action is required for driver improvement. This road safety initiative is about helping drivers to drive better and is not a ‘big brother’ programme.

Anyone else want to pick holes?

[barnstormer1968]

Mr C Hinecap.

I think I may be missing something here, but thanks for the compliment..As I am
one of the professional drivers you talk of, and did drive many specialist
vehicles, as well as instruct on bike, car and HGV licences:ok:

While your figures do show that a large amount of accidents are in the white fleet,
which are driven to beyond the capability of some of their drivers, I still cannot
see how your figures show if the accidents were RTC's or RTA's and this does
make a massive difference, as you will know as a road safety type!*

If you still contend that most MOD vehicles are modern, then I presume you are
only talking about the RAF, and not the army/RN too.

*As a common example, a reported accident (RTA in loose terms) could be a
landrover puncturing its fuel tank on a hidden rock while driving cross country in
the dark with no lights on. Or the CRV(T) which rolls over a road side cliff in
FRY (and is later repaired)
This can be impossible to avoid, and does cost money to repair/recover. This
is very different to some do-nut who takes a fleet car, and smacks into the back
of someone at 90mph on a motorway (RTC)

As I said, just my two penneth. :)

[Mr C Hinecap]

The figures quoted are from the 'Total Collisions' column and not from any other source. I don't know why you are going down this rabbit hole.

The cost to MoD for 3rd Party iability Claims was, in 2008, £11.79m - boulders don't claim. The cost of repair to MoD vehicles in the same year was £3.26m. There were over 400 injuries On Duty that year due to the accidents.
The language is now Accidents and Incidents. I've dragged all I can from the Road Safety Report and I'm sure most are convinced that most accidents take place on the public highway. £5m total to monitor and perhaps modify driving behaviour has to be a good investment.

[barnstormer1968]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

I was questioning your figures, as you referred to accidents at first, but in the post above refer to collisions (obviously accidents and collisions can be very different things with RTC being the new buzz word in civvy life. An incident can be something else (or the same thing:})). I have not queried the fitting of trackers, but was only interested in your figures. I guess as you are coming from an RAF point of view, you do not see where I was going, as the RAF aren't really known for going off road, or front line driving in the same way as other services/arms do.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Thank you for your outdated view of the RAF and your insight into my background. The ACSSUs have a fairly field-orientated view and given I currently work in the Land environment, having spent my last tour in greens, I have a fair feel for the non-tarmac world you are hinting at. Given quite a bit of my training was at DST Leconfield, with the Army, I'm more Joint than many in Light Blue. I know where you were going, but it is small cheese these days compared to road miles.

[dilly]

So......if my MT section decided that I wasn't allowed to drive their vehicles any more because I accelerate and brake too hard - would they have to provide me with a driver to get to meetings??

[Gnd]

Unfortunately, it was via the 2* that the ban came into force, with posting and to a job where travel was not a real issue - unless you flew for a few hours???

Just do as we're asked and set off a bit earlier? MT will not provide and the train (2nd Class) can be a real pain; you have to be of a certain level to have MT’s at you beck and call!!

[BEagle]

So......if my MT section decided that I wasn't allowed to drive their vehicles any more because I accelerate and brake too hard - would they have to provide me with a driver to get to meetings??

I hope they'd simply tell you that you had 2 choices:

1. Wise up and don't drive like a chav.
2. Make your own way to your meetings.

[Mr C Hinecap]

dilly - if you want to have a shoe-wetting competition with a WO who has seen most every single abuse of MT and the regulations, then go for it. MTOs are not known for their tolerance when someone tries to play the system.

[3 bladed beast]

Seriously, £20 will get you a fine GPS/phone jammer.

Wise investment.

[cornish-stormrider]

Stop fretting about a bit of EUMS in your car, you master race skygods have had it in your chariots for years.

And we could tell when a certain pilock (T) had used what jet, it was as if he had a digital throttle - off and max.

Any initiative which stops the waste of my hard earned tax dollars so youse lot can go hooning about the airfield on nights is a good thing.

Abuse of MT, whatever next

:(

[Pontius Navigator]

An Electronic Driver Assistance Programme . . . onboard feedback technology . . . offer drivers visual real-time information about their driving performance.

The telemetric type equipment will capture information from the vehicle about braking, cornering, acceleration and speed.

This will then instantly analyse the data to determine a risk level of the particular driving action, or the overall journey.

This could be an interesting area. Driver A sets out for HQ at 0600 to arrive by 0900. Now he may be a bit sleepy at the start and should take a break at 2 hrs or so depending on road conditions. Everything being equal, he shoould be in the green for the whole of that journey even with the early start.

After a full day, and departing at 1600 he should take another break at 1800 but may already have stretched his duty driving day. If he is still in the green then he may be OK but if he is in the Red then this is more than likely an indication of fatigue and high risk. That should be complete justification for finding an hotel for the night and claiming T&S.

Pull that one a few times and the meetings will get shorter or overnight in the mess will become the norm. How many people really MUST get back to the office the next day.

[Gnd]

I hate driving anyway so I am going for the red and ban - without the posting!!! I vote for VTC in all Ward rooms and Messes!!!

[barnstormer1968]

Mr C Hinecap

I'm Sorry if your didn't like my insight into your background, but after you typed: (my red)

You're the same crowd who can always do the job better than me regardless - but I will maintain my demure demeanor and humour you once more.

I could not resist it:). It did get more funny though, once you mentioned Leconfield, as it would have been someone exactly like me who would have trained you there:ok:.

You are of course perfectly entitled to think that my view of the RAF being mostly on road users is outdated, but IMHO they still have a lot of work to do to catch up with my former service (the service who trained you, and have the vast majority of combat drivers):)

[John M]

Speaking as a person who is partly responsible for the administration of this system at my unit, I would suggest that some of you look here: Greenroad (http://www.greenroad.com/) to educate yourselves as to what the system actually does. Secondly, I would suggest that those of you whose units have not taken the time to explain the system to its users, should ask your section heads to contact the MTO and ask for a proper briefing as to the why`s and wherefores of this project.

barnstormer1968 You are of course perfectly entitled to think that my view of the RAF being mostly on road users is outdated, but IMHO they still have a lot of work to do to catch up with my former service (the service who trained you, and have the vast majority of combat drivers)
With the greatest of respect to what you may have been in the past, I have just attended a course at DST Leconfield and I can tell you as an ex RAF Driving Instructor and professional driver for 32 years, the way they are training drivers, combat or otherwise, there puts the fear of God into me.

[Pontius Navigator]

Stoppers, old chum, could you please delete that link in your post.

The reason I ask is that it includes some very nasty toys, such as powerful green la

Just found an article in the March/April edition of Navigation News - GPS Jamming.

In brief it mentions jammers which are easily available online but which are illegal in UK and spoofing. A brief-case sized spoofer was developed in 2008
and it is believed that hackers and criminals would be able to get an affordable version in two years.

One use of jammers was stated to be 'disobedience of company policies where GPS is used to locate cargo or personnel.'

[barnstormer1968]

John M

Please check your PM's:)

[stickjocky]

thanks john, thats exactly what i was looking for!

[[email protected]]

I think our record is getting it into the red within 50m of starting off:)

If this is such a good investment why do we not see it in the many Hertz, Avis, National and other hire cars that we get to drive so often?

I would much rather use my own car for duty travel but some beancounter has decreed that you must have business use on your insurance (at extra cost) in order to claim back your mileage costs. So it's OK to commute to work and claim home to duty (or whatever we are calling it now) but not to drive to another station for a meeting and back. Madness:ugh:

[John M]

@ [email protected]:- how do you know they are not fitted to the hire cars? Many hire companies have them fitted but have chosen not to have the "traffic lights" fitted. If you manage to get it "into the red" within 50 metres I am glad I am not in the car with you. As far as using your own car is concerned most insurance companies will now give you this cover at no extra charge. If you prefer to use your own car why not ask your insurer.

John

[4mastacker]

I would much rather use my own car for duty travel but some beancounter has decreed that you must have business use on your insurance (at extra cost) in order to claim back your mileage costs.....When I first started using my car to commute in the early 80's, a very friendly JNCO ic Travel Claims pointed out to me that it was already a requirement for claiming Home to Duty and was actually written into the relevant QR. My insurance company provided the cover at no extra cost. It paid dividends when Handbrake House at a new posting had a purge of claimants car insurance policies and rejected an awful lot of claims and demanded repayments...fortunately mine wasn't one of them. Must say a big thank you to the delightful little WRAF Cpl who gave me that useful bit of info....who am I to argue with the wife!!

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

I would much rather use my own car for duty travel but some beancounter has decreed that you must have business use on your insurance (at extra cost) in order to claim back your mileage costs.

It has always been a requireement that you had to have business insurance for business travel. My Insurance company used to charge but now it is free on request.

[[email protected]]

But travelling from home to another place for the purposes of work (even if it is a few hundred miles away is technically commuting not business use - my insurers want extra for business cover and I don't believe it is necessary.

Business cover would be appropriate if you are conveying other people for hire or reward (in that case them claiming back costs on JPA) but travelling to Valley for example for a meeting (ie work) by yourself is simply commuting which I am sure shouldn't require any other cover than the normal domestic, social and pleasure category - although I don't class going to Valley under any of those:)

John M - you're not apilot are you:)

[Chainkicker]

My insurance had a clause stating to and from work had to be a "permanent place of work". That would leave out meetings, short courses etc.

[Pontius Navigator]

crab, you're quibbling. My insurance included commuting to my place of work; now it doesn't :}

[John M]

John M - you're not a pilot are you

lol, complete opposite end of the spectrum, I`m an MT driver through and through.

John