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lynn789
16th Apr 2010, 20:08
I think the spoilers allow the plane to lose height on landing approach without increasing speed

some pilots apply them without any warning to pax, causing alarm down the back as this part of the plane shakes, Is it the disturbed air from the main wings hitting the tailwings ? several times Ive had to reasure people around me that its only the spoilers and all is OK

apparently on the 727, there was no shaking due to the tailwings being up higher

LEM
16th Apr 2010, 20:50
some pilots apply them without any warning to pax


:ugh::mad::eek:

javelin
16th Apr 2010, 20:52
As you whack them out full on an A320 doing 340kts - the howl is ace :ok:

sharpclassic
16th Apr 2010, 20:55
Lynn has a point.....am I the only airline pilot who gives a running commentary of what I'm doing over the PA?

"Ladies and Gentlemen, I am just about to extend the flaps, that is the slight lift you'll feel. Now, the loud noise you're about to hear is the sound of the wheels being lowered for landing and if you can hear a slight slurping noise, I did tell you at the beginning of the flight that our cabin crew really are here to make the flight as enjoyable as possible. Thank you for flying with us today."

Clandestino
16th Apr 2010, 20:59
Thanks DHC for dash 8. No speedbrakes and gear is visible from cabin, sparing me two items on PA.

bfisk
16th Apr 2010, 21:39
What, the gear on a dash8 is not visible from the cabin? What? :bored:

Clandestino
16th Apr 2010, 21:50
Erm... that would be my level 3 English. Should have written: a) there are no speedbrakes b) gear is visible from cabin. So I a) don't warn the pax before I use speedbrakes as I don't have them anyway b) don't tell the pax that gear is coming down, they should be able to see it themselves.

clunckdriver
16th Apr 2010, 22:01
It may be news to some but most pax want to sleep, read, or do any number of things BUT listen to some verbose P2F "ace" rambling on about every little sound/ vibration from the pointy end, for those twitched about flying no amount of PA drivel will help, and the rest dont care! Recentley when deadheading home we {all the pax that is}were forced to listen to the flight deck ramble on about min time tracks and God knows what else, all at 3am body time! ETA,weather, thanks for flying with us, then shut up!

DutchBird-757
16th Apr 2010, 22:03
None of the above for me but, our company does make the cc do a PA when approaching LCY on the E190 that there will be a noticable buffet due to the spoilers being extended on the steep approach. (no PA though on the E170 as you hardly feel it)

Capt Claret
17th Apr 2010, 00:17
717 rumbles with speedbrake, high tail wings & all.

framer
17th Apr 2010, 01:42
There is way to much talk over the PA as it is in my opinion. Would you like to donate spare change?....this is a non smoking flight.... the cabin crew will now move through the cabin....are you sure you don't want to donate spare change?... blah blah blah....just let the pax be.

Denti
17th Apr 2010, 08:57
Yup, our customer service surveys do show that passengers only want very short comments if at all, there is a marked difference between business flights and tourist flights though, on the latter they like a bit more chatter. If someone is really worried about any sound or vibration on board they can book some training with the company for those that are afraid of flying, everything will be explained there.

Wizofoz
17th Apr 2010, 15:26
I used to present a talk at a "Fear of Flying" course a previous company ran.

Often, one of the attendees would have some horror story of something (probably perfectly normal) happening and "The Pilots didn't say anything!!"

I'd try and put the point across, "Well, we are probably quite busy at that time and, if it is actually an emergency, we would DEFIANTLY be busy. Would you rather we dealt with the problem or spoke to you?"

Funny thing was, reaction to this seemingly rhetorical question was pretty much split!! Half the people would actually prefer us to tell them what's happening, rather than waste our time saving their lives!

411A
17th Apr 2010, 15:37
It may be news to some but most pax want to sleep, read, or do any number of things BUT listen to some verbose P2F "ace" rambling on about every little sound/ vibration from the pointy end, for those twitched about flying no amount of PA drivel will help, and the rest dont care! Recentley when deadheading home we {all the pax that is}were forced to listen to the flight deck ramble on about min time tracks and God knows what else, all at 3am body time!

Well said...some (most) at the pointy end just don't know when to shut up.

Bealzebub
17th Apr 2010, 16:09
Lynn has a point.....am I the only airline pilot who gives a running commentary of what I'm doing over the PA?

"Ladies and Gentlemen, I am just about to extend the flaps, that is the slight lift you'll feel. Now, the loud noise you're about to hear is the sound of the wheels being lowered for landing and if you can hear a slight slurping noise, I did tell you at the beginning of the flight that our cabin crew really are here to make the flight as enjoyable as possible. Thank you for flying with us today."

I don't know if you are the only one, but you are in a very small minority and for a very good reason.

Carrying out a manouever in an aircraft should warrant your full attention. The monitoring requirements also require that you listen to what is happening on the radio as well as what the other pilot is doing. Electing to play a running commentary to your passengers may be interesting and entertaining but in normal circumstances it shows what most pilots and most authorities would regard as a serious inversion of priorities.

If you think I am wrong, try doing this on your next line check and report back.

The normal and smooth application of speedbrakes shouldn't be any different than the similar application of ailerons, elevators, brakes or any other control.

I am a strong advocate of communication in all aspects of commercial aviation and that particularly includes considered, timely and sensible communication with the passengers. However that should never be at the cost of the safe and routine functioning of the flight.

There are specific flights (fear of flying has already been highlighted) where the passengers often are given a running commentary of the proceedings. However, that is by a supernumary pilot employed specifically for the purpose, not somebody charged with the piloting of that flight.

If it is a joke, then ho ho ho!

747JJ
17th Apr 2010, 16:43
As far as I am concerned, I could be speaking Mongolian and explaining how a Yak cow gives birth and nurses it's calfs. This would have the same effect as making the PA in English and trying to explain what we are doing in the cockpit. Most of the PAX I fly do not speak English nor do I speak their native language. Waste of efforts really. My Father did long PA's in Finnish , Swedish and in English explaining PAX what was happening.

Also I have bad experiences on trying to explain something technical to the people in the back. So many misunderstandings it is not even funny. Birdstrike equals a strike of workers now does it not?

dwshimoda
17th Apr 2010, 16:44
time to reel Bealzebub in I think :)

I would say however that I was taught on the B757 to gently "crack" the speedbrakes, before smoothly deploying them. The odd skipper I fly with just yanks them out, but by and large, most people try and deploy them smoothly.

3bars
17th Apr 2010, 16:47
Would you advise a passeger in a car that you're about to brake / change gears / indicate? :ugh:



If you don't like flying....don't fly!:suspect:

TheChitterneFlyer
17th Apr 2010, 16:49
Some pilots apply them without any warning to pax, causing alarm down the back as this part of the plane shakes, Is it the disturbed air from the main wings hitting the tailwings ? several times Ive had to reasure people around me that its only the spoilers and all is OK.

What a load of tosh!

Elf and safety at its worst.

Microburst2002
17th Apr 2010, 17:55
:}
the mongolian spoken explanation of the yak and its calfs is one of the most hilarious things I have read lately.:ok:

vapilot2004
17th Apr 2010, 18:12
It is always good form to make a short and sweet PA when the fires go out in all engines ala Speedbird 9.

fredgrav
17th Apr 2010, 19:36
I think the spoilers allow the plane to lose height on landing approach without increasing speed

spoilers create an extra-drag that can both help decelerating the a/c or increasing the vertical speed without any further "forward" speed increase.

some pilots apply them without any warning to pax, causing alarm down the back as this part of the plane shakes, Is it the disturbed air from the main wings hitting the tailwings ? several times Ive had to reasure people around me that its only the spoilers and all is OK

It's true that, as for any commercial flight, you fly people not planes ... at that purpose it would be appropriate, whenever possible, to properly inform passengers about what's gonna happen. That said, if you're goin' to use speedbrakes to increase your VS (eg. very high on vert. prof), thus assuming attitudes that a pax may find unusual, here the announcement could be of use. Anyway, should you be goin' to deploy speed brakes just to slow the a/c down, no announcement would be required as your pax's couldn't care less about what you're doing to fly the a/c.

I'd suggest everyone to have a look on this .pdf:

http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdfs/flightops/humanfactors/Communicate_Positively_with_Your_Passengers.pdf

Happy Landings,
fredgrav

Piltdown Man
17th Apr 2010, 19:40
But I think he took his time to tell the punters. He was more concerned with re-starting the donks than telling the SLF that he was about to. Aviate, Navigate....

PM

vapilot2004
17th Apr 2010, 19:53
Agreed PM, timing is everything. :}

Agaricus bisporus
17th Apr 2010, 19:58
PPPPPP

ie, if you set up the descent properly there should be no need to resort to the mistake handle. Sure, sometimes shortened routes/directs require some extra help, but there are several methods to increase ROD before you need to resort to such a crude and un-pax-friendly method. Of course there are occasions - particularly in intermediate descent at high speed with shortcuts given it may be valid.

Using speedbrake to "slow the aeroplane down"??????????? Jeez - that really is showing lack of planning!

However the use of speedbrake in conjunction with flaps on my type - 737 (a procedure frowned upon by Boeing but prevalent in my co) is the most extraordinarily cack-handed technique. A)Boeing advise us not to,so why do it it all? B) it has virtually no effect on rod below 250kts so what's the point? 3) it shakes the aeroplane and must add to pax stress and finally, 4) on finals with flap selected the next thing you're going to call for is gear, and that does affect rod - so why not call for gear early instead???? - and make sure of returning to profile?

Christ, we'll be having people sideslipping on approach next.

PaulEMB
17th Apr 2010, 20:08
Whilst I agree with most of the comments regarding en route comments and explanations, I was pleasantly surprised by the KLM Captain on KL 1705 from AMS to MAD last Wednesday, especially given the day in question, to take the time to come out to the gate after 30 mins delay, and explain he was trying to get a new routing out of Holland via German airspace, as that was the only way left out of Holland (around 5pm), and the having obtained the new routing, promptly loaded and set off.

When we returned to the gate 10 mins later as Dutch airspace was closed, there was no word of complaint or upset amongst the many SLF, despire the fact there were no ground staff to meet us at our new gate on return.

Perhaps a few words at the right time ?

400drvr
17th Apr 2010, 20:44
Wasn't aware I had to advise the passengers whenever I decide to use a flight control system for speed or height control. Typically when speed brakes are deployed it's a busy time in the cockpit and talking to the cabin can cause an unnecessary distraction to the pilots. In addition most airlines do not allow PA's from the cockpit below 10000', again a safety issue. So for those of you who are alarmed by the use of speed brakes be glad they are not used all the time and remember if there is a problem we will let you know.:ok:

glhcarl
17th Apr 2010, 21:03
Many years ago the LTU inflight magazine had a section that described the different things a passenger would experience during a the flight, including the different noises that would be heard. I though every airline should do the same.

lynn789
17th Apr 2010, 22:13
none the less, on some airlines they warn of the buffeting from spoilers and on some airlines they dont, I guess the pilots never get to sit down the back in steerage to experience it, Ive seen it cause concern and alarm

Caudillo
17th Apr 2010, 22:42
am I the only airline pilot who gives a running commentary of what I'm doing over the PA?

I can't tell if this is sarcasm, but if it isn't - I pray to God Almighty you are.

wiggy
18th Apr 2010, 00:00
you set up the descent properly there should be no need to resort to the mistake handle

Funnily enough I've had so many guys drop flap at placard minus one, or **** off US ATC by slowing early/or***** me off by busting a gate that I now brief the P2s that if they need spoiler use it, and dont regard it as a mistake.......but that's just me....

But I don't do the "spoiler" PAs either........

AnthonyGA
18th Apr 2010, 01:10
Lynn has a point.....am I the only airline pilot who gives a running commentary of what I'm doing over the PA?

If you do it in the United States below 10,000 feet or while in movement on the ground, you are in violation of 14 CFR 121.542 (for airlines). Explaining how the airplane works or other pedagogic announcements are not essential to the safety of the flight and are therefore prohibited. Your job is to fly the aircraft, not to make presentations to passengers.

A number of recent accidents have been linked in part to non-essential conversation in the cockpit, so this is not a good time to test the leniency of the FAA.

400drvr
18th Apr 2010, 01:15
I understand that the use of speed brakes can be unsettling, but it can be done in such a way to minimize discomfort and alarm. When ever I feel the need to use them I open them slowly so that the passengers are not alarmed by the initial buffeting they cause.

Additionally the airline I work for English is a second language and since I don't speak the language of the airline I work for making a PA announcement would require both pilots taking the time to make a PA in two different languages, again time consuming and distracting, time might be better spent listening to what ATC might want you to do.

In the future I will keep in mind your thoughts and see how I might be able to inform the passengers in a timely manner that the rumbling they might feel in the descent is entirely normal.

Cheers!:)

shortfuel
18th Apr 2010, 02:09
Speedbrakes PA....:ugh: what's next??? A reverse PA during landing-roll, a visual approach PA...how about one on thrust noise fluctuation during gusty arrivals?

And in case of a screwed up landing, do you grab your PA to apologize as well?

Floppy Link
18th Apr 2010, 11:08
...I guess the pilots never get to sit down the back in steerage to experience it...

:rolleyes: I hope you were joking...when I joined my first airline 15 years ago I did more sectors as a passenger in the first 6 months after training than I had done in the previous 30 years...there's a lot of crew positioning in any airline, longhaul or shorthaul.

olepilot
18th Apr 2010, 11:39
is this really the professional pilots network?

Centaurus
18th Apr 2010, 11:44
Quote:
Lynn has a point.....am I the only airline pilot who gives a running commentary of what I'm doing over the PA?

"Ladies and Gentlemen, I am just about to extend the flaps, that is the slight lift you'll feel. Now, the loud noise you're about to hear is the sound of the wheels being lowered for landing and if you can hear a slight slurping noise, I did tell you at the beginning of the flight that our cabin crew really are here to make the flight as enjoyable as possible. Thank you for flying with us today."

He is winding us up. Surely no sane pilot would ever contemplate coming over the PA with that stuff. Unless, of course he loves the sound of his own voice and that happens a lot.

mrfox
18th Apr 2010, 11:55
if you can hear a slight slurping noise, I did tell you at the beginning of the flight that our cabin crew really are here to make the flight as enjoyable as possible. Thank you for flying with us today."

Which airline do you fly for? Because I would like to buy a round trip, long haul ticket... to anywhere... it doesn't matter. :)

Wait... you did mention they are female cabin crew right?

PENKO
18th Apr 2010, 12:22
The only thing worth mentioning on this thread is that on the 737 it might be nice not to yank those speedbrakes. Deploy them slooowly. After years of flying the 737 both as a pilot and as a commuter in the back, I can say that wacking out the speedbrakes can be very startling because of the sudden jolt. Take them out slowly and no-one is bothered. Of course, every cadet on the 737 knows that after the first try.

Anyway, as most pilots will tell you, I have never ever heard nor seen any pilot do a PA about spoilers.

MarkerInbound
18th Apr 2010, 23:10
"Didn't the B727 have a "Limitation" against extending SpdBrks with the LG EXTENDED?"

No speed brakes and FLAPS in the 727. Speed brakes and and gear was just .. impressive.

framer
20th Apr 2010, 06:19
I would think the guy sitting next to me was joking if he suggested doing a PA about extending the spoilers...load of bollocks really.

PENKO
20th Apr 2010, 08:18
And more in line with the sterile cockpit rule, if you need speedbrakes it means you 'screwed' up somewhere, or you are surprised by ATC vectors, or the airspace is challenging. In other words, time get busy, no time for public relations.

747JJ
20th Apr 2010, 08:59
DC8 series aircraft with P&W JT3 engines could use inboard engine reverse while airborne for the same purpopse we use spoilers/speedbrakes. I remember crew warning about their use on Finnair flights and they where impressive in generating noise and vibration that was clearly out of the norm. I never flew the DC8 as pilot so I have no idea how effective this procedure was for what it was intended for.

lexxie747
20th Apr 2010, 09:07
dear janne!
it was very effective, and was used to get to the bar quickly.
when i suggested to use it once,the captain told me he would kill me first,because in his words the machine would fall apart,since it was over forty years old.
shame really,have thought about using it on the 47,damn thing couldnt do it....... all the best, see you, alex

barit1
20th Apr 2010, 14:38
There used to be informative brochures in the seatback pocket telling SLF all about these geewhiz gadgets.

Myself, I never bother with inflight PA about spoilers and gear. Of course, I'm flying a Piper J-3. :}

Slasher
22nd Apr 2010, 10:16
"Ladys and gentlemen, each of the wings is about to fall apart. The back edges
will start sliding back and hang down like shirts flapping on the clothesline. The
front bits will separate themselves from the front of the wing, and they realy
looked cool when I was on 727s. Once this is all done youll see bloodey great
gaping holes all over the front and aft sections of the wing. On landing large
chunks of metal will come apart from the top of the wing to further bamboozle
any armchair thoughts of aerodynamics you might have, as well as a huge
noisey revving of the engines to add to your confusion as to why Im throttling
them up when at the same time Im trying to stop on the runway. Im not paid
enough to teach you airfoil theory and landing performance so just google it.
Thank you."