Hearing Reqs. - JAA Class 1

[nfresh]

Curious to know if any allowance is given for the use of hearing aids (within reason) to meet the requirments requirments.

I unfortunately lost part of my hearing in the my right ear. But do gain great improvement with a hearing aid. I would pass the basic test without any problem but the audiogram would pose problems.

I also find the requirments a bit unflexible. Despite my hearing loss I am sure that this would pose no problems to me being able to do the job as an airline pilot.

The requirments also do not take it to account hearing loss in just one ear. One fully functional ear is far better than two not so functional ones (which in some cases is acceptable).

Any thoughts?

[Superpilut]

As far as I know Europe doesn't allow this and mostly come with not really reasonable arguments. i.e. What if you battery is empty, or you lose some of your hearing on your "good" ear (then your almost totally deaf etc.
Would be interesting indeed if it would be allowed, like I think they do in the states under strict conditions.

Anyway, I wish you lots of luck on your crusade!

[flypastpastfast]

I have a lot of sympathy for the situation you describe. I knew someone else in a similar situation. It seems bizarre that this has not been re evaluated considering the developments in hearing aid technology, AND the realisation that eye standards have perhaps been over stringent.

It is possibly just another case of JAA introduction leading to no attention being paid to other important matters like this. If you can wear glasses to correct slight visual defects, then why not hearing aids for audio defects?

Does anyone else know more on this???

Are the standards being reviewed?

[nfresh]

I agree. There are two arguments here. One is should hearing aids be allowed or not to bring hearing standards up to scratch and the other is whether or not more flexibility should be given to the examination when considering people with disabilities.

The examination should actually test your ability do to necessary tasks, which in the case of hearing would be communications. Unfortunately, a hearing test is done which provides a list of figures that are then compared to a chart. If they don't match, then you don't pass.

Similarly with other jobs requiring medicals such as the armed services and the police, medicals rule out many people who are capable of doing a wind range of jobs, just because they are not fit to do one or two "frontline" jobs.

[nfresh]

The other thing is that the JAA requirements state "the ability to hear ‘conversational speech when tested with each ear at a distance of 2 metres from and with his back turned towards the AME’ "

Unless the ears are tested as a whole and not individually then this statement does not represent the hearing requirements!

[inverted flatspin]

Once again the FAA are very progresssive on this health issue. It looks like the JAA are imposing hearing requirements that probably date back to the days when radios and nav aids were very crackly and there was a lot of interfering noise in the cockpit, It is redundant in this day and age of active noise reducing headsets and quiet flight decks.

Here is how the FAA handle the issue.
--------------------------------------------------
FAA Certification Standards for Hearing
The current regulations require that any applicant for an airman medical certificate be able to hear an average conversational voice in a quiet room, using both ears, at a distance of 6 feet from the examiner, facing away from the examiner.

For persons who cannot meet that requirement, the FAA allows for a Statement of Demonstrated Ability, or waiver, to be issued following satisfactory completion of additional testing. The Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners details how the FAA determines that the hearing standard is met. Hearing aids are acceptable for any class of medical. If a hearing aid is required to meet the hearing standards, the aviation medical examiner may issue a medical certificate with the limitation "valid only with use of hearing amplification". If a headset is used in place of a hearing aid while flying, the FAA will require a medical flight test. After successful completion of the flight test, a Statement of Demonstrated Ability waiver (SODA) will be issued.

For pilots who are asked to take a Medical Flight Test, the FAA inspector will be observing any or all of the following, as explained in the Flight Inspectors Handbook (FAA 8700.1 Chg. 3 10-1/89):

the ability to hear radio, voice, and signal communications (marker beacons, Morse code identifiers)
the ability to understand a normal, conversational voice level with the engine off and running, on the ground and while airborne, and with the engine at different power settings, and ensure the applicant is not lip reading by having the applicant respond to questions while looking away from the inspector.
the ability to estimate a glide by sound in relation to speed
the ability to recognize an approaching stall by change in sound related to a change in speed
2. Observe an applicant with a total hearing loss demonstrate the following:

Recognition of engine power loss or engine failure by a change in vibration and by instrument scan
Recognition of approaching stall by aerodynamic buffet and visual cues
Recognition of retractable gear emergencies (if in retractable gear aircraft) by observing gear warning lights
--------------------------------------------------

Totally deaf pilots are allowed fly in the US, But not to airports or in airspace where radio communication is required, again this applies to any class of medical, so it is possible to get a first or second (comercial in the US) class medical restricted as above and to fly for hire (dropping parachutists, pipeline inspection etc) as long as you don't go somewhere that you have to talk to someone.


The JAA are way out of line on this and many other medical issues. Individuals who are a little hard of hearing pose no risk to flight safety, they just need to turn the volume on the headset up a little. they have been doing so for years in the US and are not over represented in the accident statistics. They crash airplanes for the same reasons that people with perfect hearing do, most commonly continued vfr flight into imc conditions and all the other usual suspects but never because of something that they did'nt hear, refusing to let these people become pilots is unreasonably preventing otherwise well qualified individuals from doing a job that they are cabable of doing just as well and safely as anyone else.

[nfresh]

Thank you flatspin!

Great to hear that you (and the FAA!) have the same view as I do and I wish it would be adopted by the CAA/JAA. How often do these things get reviewed? What extent does this apply to Class I & II

What I think is criminal is that because they (CAA) test ears sperately you could have hearing loss in both ears at 20db and pass but have perfect hearing in one and loss at 25db in the other and fail!

[aztruck]

How much hearing have you lost and at what frequencies? The ear's first frequency to go is usually 4k because its detector hair cells just happen to be at the front end of the Cochlea, and hence get damaged first when loud sound pressure waves transmit through the fluid.
This is according to an ear specialist I went to for an independant check up to get some 25db Musicians earplugs moulded.
From what the flying Doc tells me it only starts to become a serious aeromedical issue when speech frequencies start to go, which at a guess is in the .5k to 1.5 k region.
I think the question of hearing aids should be treated the same as glasses, ie carry a spare and backup batteries etc, or wear an appropriate headset.
Any AME's out there who have any opinions, especially with respect to Airline ops.

[nfresh]

I have quite a bit of loss in the higher frequencies I think -- dont have my last audiogram to hand.

It was due to a problem which destroyed the eardrum. Day to day I dont notice it. I dont even use the hearing aid I have though it does improve things a lot if need be.

[flypastpastfast]

Thanks for the info on FAA, flatspin.

As usual, JAA are light years behind everyone else (what a surprise).

[nfresh]

These might be of interest;

<a href="http://www.deafpilots.com" target="_blank">http://www.deafpilots.com</a>

<a href="http://www.leftseat.com" target="_blank">http://www.leftseat.com</a>

N.

[Captain QRH]

It may be of interest that I suffered sudden hearing loss in one ear and I am still permitted to fly with a JAA class one medical with the proviso of an annual audiogram. After the hearing loss I had (at the CAA's request) to demonstrate to a Company Training Captain that I could safely operate the aircraft despite this disability. This information was then passed back to the CAA.. .I have to say that at the time I already held a Class One medical and perhaps the requirements are more stringent for the initial issue of a Class One? The hearing tests (apart from the audiogram) are a bit of a joke really as you would have to be virtually totally deaf not to hear the whispered voice across the room at the medical. The CAA view certainly seems to be that hearing loss is acceptable up to a certain level as you can always crank up the volume on the radios and thereby make yourself even more deaf!!

[inverted flatspin]

Captain QRH you bring up a good point. You were already a pilot when this disability happened to you. If this had happened before you began training you would have been denied the chance to begin training. What possible risk to your own safety and the safety of others (passengers and people on the ground)would you have posed as a student pilot? none. It is the CAA's opinion that you do not pose such a danger now so why should someone else who has the same disability be treated differently?

The JAA/CAA have to come to the realisation that they above all else are NOT IN THE PRACTICE OF MEDICINE

If someone can show that they pose no risk to flight safety then they should not be denied the opportunity to fly?

Having a different standard for initial applicants is just plain discrimination.

[nfresh]

I agree! Thanks all for your input. It is just beauracratic stiff upper lip that does it.

The current governmentt seems so keen on anti-discrimination to the extent that were I to apply to the civil service, then because of my bad hearing I would be guaranteed a first interview under the so called "two tick" scheme!

The question is, what can be done about pushing the case forward? Maybe the deaf pilots accociation could help?

N.

[inverted flatspin]

if you really want to pursue your case the best place to go would be to this link

<a href="http://www.drc-gb.org/drc/" target="_blank">http://www.drc-gb.org/drc/</a>

. .Here is the relevant section of the legislation

<a href="http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1995/95050--c.htm#19" target="_blank">http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1995/95050--c.htm#19</a>

. .The CAA's position would have to be that you are a danger to yourself or the public in general.

If you can show that it is not reasonable for them to hold this opinion you would have a strong case, also if you can show that they have given a medical certificate to someone who has a similar condition to your's then you can also claim that you have been treated less favourably than that person.

i.e As has already been pointed out in this thread they will allow individuals who are renewing their medicals pass to a lower standard.

Need hard evidence to back up your claim

first try this link to find the relevant. .reports

<a href="http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/AAM-400A/subjects.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/AAM-400A/subjects.htm</a>

Then go to this link to get the reports.

<a href="http://amelia.db.erau.edu/gen/am.htm#73" target="_blank">http://amelia.db.erau.edu/gen/am.htm#73</a>

Luckily Hearing is not a problem for me, consequently my knowledge on the subject is limited. I hope you find what you need on these pages and good luck if you decide to persue it.

[inverted flatspin]

just as a follow up I found this on the FAA website for anyone who is interested

--------------------------------------------------

Flight Standards Service . .Deaf Pilot Certification FAQ's. . . .Q. If I am deaf, can I obtain a pilot certificate?

A. Yes, an individual who is deaf can obtain a pilot certificate in one of the five categories of aircraft: airplane, rotorcraft, glider, powered-lift, or lighter-than-air.

Q. What are the grades of pilot certificates?

A. There are five grades of pilot certificates that are available: student pilot, recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, and airline transport pilot.

Q. What types of certificates can a deaf pilot obtain?

A. A deaf pilot can obtain a student pilot certificate, recreational pilot certificate, private pilot certificate, and, on a limited basis, a commercial pilot certificate; for example, agricultural aircraft operations, banner towing operations, or any operation which does not require radio communication. With new interface technology for incockpit receipt of weather information and digital communication, additional pilot certificates may be available to deaf pilots in the future.

Q. What are the differences in the certificates?

A. A student pilot certificate is designed for the initial instructional period of flying. The student pilot is limited to flying with the flight instructor or solo after appropriate instructor endorsements (Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) sections 61.87 and 61.89). A recreational pilot certificate limits the holder to specific categories and classes of aircraft, the number of passengers which may be carried, the distance that may be flown from the departure point, flight into controlled airports, and other limitations (14 CFR section 61.101). A private pilot certificate permits the pilot to carry passengers and provides for limited business use of an airplane (14 CFR section 61.113). A commercial pilot certificate permits the pilot to conduct certain types of operations for compensation and hire (14 CFR section 61.133).

Q. Are there limitations placed on a deaf pilot's certificate?

A. Yes. A deaf pilot's certificate will include the limitation, "Not Valid for Flights Requiring the Use of Radio" (14 CFR section 61.13).

Q. How do I choose a flight school and flight instructor?

A. The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) has a book available on choosing your flight instructor and flight school. The International Deaf Pilots Association (IDPA) has information regarding flight instructors who know how to sign. Generally speaking, you should visit the location to observe the professionalism of the school. You will need to discuss your particular degree of hearing impairment with the flight instructor and establish how to communicate best with each other. Have the flight instructor you select contact the IDPA for additional advice and assistance.

Q. When is a medical examination required?

A. All student pilots must obtain at least a third class airman medical certificate from an FAA Aviation Medical Examiner (AME) before the first solo flight, except for gliders and balloons, which do not require a medical certificate.

Q. Are there special medical requirements for the deaf pilot?

A. Yes, a deaf pilot is required to submit the results of a hearing exam to the medical examiner or the FAA in order to satisfy the medical exam. He or she must also take a Special Medical Flight Test in the later stages of flight instruction to demonstrate the following: 1) recognition of engine power loss or engine failure by a change in vibration and by instrument scan; 2) recognition of approaching stall by aerodynamic buffet and visual cues; and 3) recognition of retractable gear emergencies by observation of gear warning lights (if applicable). Upon the successful completion of the Special Medical Flight Test, the FAA will issue a second-class or third-class medical certificate and a Statement of Demonstrated Ability (SODA). This can be done at a Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) of choice.

Q. Are there limitations placed on a deaf pilot's medical certificate and SODA?

A. Yes, Both the medical certificate and the SODA will have the limitation "Not valid for flying where radio use is required." Additional limitations may be placed on the medical certificate and SODA by the Aeromedical Certification Division as appropriate to the class of medical certificate.

Q. What are the hourly requirements in becoming a pilot?

A. 14 CFR part 61 (Certification: Pilots, Flight Instructors, and Ground Instructors) prescribes the hourly requirements for the issuance of pilot certificates and ratings. A person applying for a private pilot certificate in airplanes, helicopters, and gyro-planes must log at least 40 hours of flight time, of which at least 20 hours are flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the appropriate areas of operation; three hours of cross country; three hours at night, three hours of instrument time; and other requirements specific to the category and class rating sought. Private pilots in gliders and lighter-than-air aircraft must have logged from an authorized instructor a similar number of hours and/ or training flights, which include both cross country and solo according to category and class rating sought. Though the regulations require a minimum of 40 hours flight time, in the U. S. the average number of hours for persons without a hearing impairment completing the private pilot certification requirements is approximately 75 hours.

Q. Are there any tests required to become a student pilot?

A. No. To obtain a student pilot certificate you must pass the medical exam discussed earlier. (Before the first solo, you must pass a written exam administered by your flight instructor (14 CFR section 61.87). To obtain a higher certificate you must pass a knowledge and practical test. The knowledge test is administered by computer and is good for a period of two years. The practical test examines your flying skills and ability against a published standard during an examination flight with a Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) in the category and class of aircraft in which you are getting your pilot certificate. Part of the practical test is an oral examination administered by the DPE.

Q. How do I prepare for the knowledge exam?

A. An instructional kit is available at most flight schools to help prepare the knowledge exam. Video tapes are also available (with closed captioning) to assist student pilots studying for the exam. Many flight schools also conduct ground instruction in a regular classroom scenario, but you would have to advise the flight school that it would have to locate and arrange for interpreters under the Americans with Disabilities Act. The IDPA or local deaf advocate organizations would be able to assist the flight school in locating interpreters. Again, check with your local FSDO for flight schools in your area.

Q. Do I need an interpreter for the computer based knowledge exam?

A. No, it is simply a multiple choice exam administered by computer.

Q. Where are the knowledge exams given?

A. Computer testing centers are located in most major metropolitan areas. For a current listing of those in your area, contact your local FSDO. The exams are given at your convenience.

Q. To obtain a private pilot certificate, is there a requirement for operations at a controlled airport?

A. Yes, a requirement of the private pilot certificate is to perform three takeoff and landings at a controlled airport to demonstrate your ability to communicate with the tower.

Q. How does a deaf pilot complete this requirement for a private pilot certificate?

A. The student and instructor need to work with the local airport personnel. Light gun signals are available for aircraft that do not have radios or in case of a radio failure. With prior permission, a deaf pilot can communicate with the tower by the use of the light gun signals.

Q. How does a deaf pilot determine the traffic direction at an airport?

A. An aircraft without radio communications remains out of the airport area and observes the traffic landing and departing. Additionally, the pilot looks for the wind sock or segmented circle, where available, to determine wind direction or direction of landing. The pilot enters the traffic pattern as recommended in the Aeronautical Information Manual and by regulation (14 CFR part 91, subpart B).

Q. How does a deaf pilot obtain a weather briefing?

A. The Direct User Access Terminal System (DUATS) is available at most general aviation airports or on personal computers to provide weather information to pilots. A deaf pilot can also use a Relay Service to access a Flight Service Station briefer at 1-800-WXBRIEF (1-800-992-7433).

Q. How does a deaf pilot complete the practical test's oral and flight portions?

A. The practical test is completed using a detailed written "plan of action" as described in the appropriate Practical Test Standards (PTS). This plan of action will include all required Tasks in each Area of Operation and should not differ significantly from the process followed by the instructor and the applicant in preparing for the practical test.

For additional information please contact any of the following sources.

International Deaf Pilots Association. .Clyde Smith, President . .RR 1 Box 99 . .E-1 Gravel Springs Road . .Jacksonville, IL 62650 . .217-243-0065 (Voice/ TTY) . .217-243-0066 (Fax) . .e-mail [email protected]

Federal Aviation Administration. .General Aviation and Commercial Division. .Certification Branch, AFS-840. .800 Independence Ave., S.W.. .Washington, DC 20591. .202-267-8196

Federal Aviation Administration. .Aeromedical Certification Division. .FAA Aeronautical Center. .PO Box 25082. .Oklahoma City, OK 73125. .405-954-4821

Federal Aviation Administration. .Office of Aerospace Medicine-AAM. .800 Independence Ave., S.W.. .Washington, DC 20591. .202-267-3835

Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association. .421 Aviation Way . .Frederick, MD 21701. .301-695-2137 . .301-695-2375 (Fax)

For Additional Reading:. .Federal Aviation Administration Order 8700.1, General Aviation Operations Inspectors Handbook, Chapter 27, "Conduct a Special Medical Test," available from your local FSDO or the Internet at <a href="http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8700/8700_vol2/2_027_00.pdf." target="_blank">http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8700/8700_vol2/2_027_00.pdf.</a>

[partagas]

Check your "private messages", or call me on 00 39 348 7033323 for immediate advice on this matter. (Am UK ATPL holder, working in Italy, with some experience regarding this issue.)

[mikekilo]

For your information folks, the CAA does not permit hearing aids to be worn during the hearing exam - despite the fact that there are no references in the regulation that state either way if hearing aids can or cannot be worn. (The FAA actually permits hearing aids to be worn during an exam)
http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/med/default.asp?page=533

This inconsistancy on the part of the CAA is grossly unfair as glasses (corrective lenses) are permitted to be worn during the eyesight exam.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED_JAR_C1_Initial_Visual_Stds.pdf

[aztruck]

Mmmm,
I met a skipper(UK) who had indeed passed his renewal wearing 2 hearing aids and the CAA said it was OK, "acceptable under JAR" were his words to describe their comments.
His AME was as in the dark as everyone else as to the official position.
The "official" position does indeed seem somewhat murky at the moment. It would be nice if someone could treat hearing loss the same as corrective lenses, particularly as we all wear hearing aids full time i.e. headsets!

[Side Slip]

Hello all.

I've been most interested to read this thread. I'm a PPL, and deaf in one ear (Missing the midrange), though my other ear is as near perfect as possible. I've been attempting to "go” commercial for about three years, but I’m always stopped by the JAA regulations. I've had hearing specialists speak with the CAA regarding my situation, and even though I have no problem with the conversational speech & whisper tests, the audiogram results always are taken as the bee-all and end-all, even against the advice of the hearing specialists. I never have problems when I fly my old Cessna, and I don't experience any problems in day to day life at all. Also, as has been said in this thread before, my overall hearing is better than if I only had the minimum requirements. I have to say, that I find the regulations very unaccommodating and out of date.
I have looked into becoming a flying instructor only, just to see if the regulations could be "Relaxed" slightly. This, so far, has not been the case. I can get my FIC rating, but using my PPL. Therefore, it is possible for me to instruct, but not get paid for it, because I have deafness in one ear! Madness.

I have to say, that I had almost given up, but now I will be carefully reading through the advice and information above, and try to take it further..Again!

Nfresh. I wish you the best of luck, if you want to ask me anything about my frustrating experiences, drop me a message / e-mail.

Sideslip.

[teis]

Anyone out there who has a hearing problem and put a limitation on his license?

[josephshankes]

I had an audiogram not so long ago and been told that I am on the limits of voice freq hearing loss. For obvious reasons I am not looking forward to my next audiogram.

Anyone have any advice apart from advising a career change?