Asthma (Appeal)

[Adamski614]

Hi,

A general question that I'm sure has come up before on several occassions... Has anyone successfully appealled against the RAF's decision to make them permenantely unfit for aircrew duties due to having been given an asthma pump?

The reason I ask was due to the fact that I appealled and got no where, I was prescribed an asthma pump when I was 5. I am just trying to find out if there is any last ditch attempts to try and find a way for an appeal to be successfull.

Many thanks for any advice or words or wisdom.

Adam.

[Aerouk]

I've actually spoken to the Secretary of State and the RAF High Command about this and neither were willing to budge on the matter. I've spoken to aviation doctors, asthma specialists, military medical doctors (from other countries) and they've all said the policy is ridiculous. The US Air Force doesn't seem to have any issue with it either so I really don't understand why the RAF do. I think they use it to cut down the number of applications, which isn't right in my opinion.

If you had suffered from cancer you would have a better chance of joining the RAF than someone who has had mild asthma. I had a mate who suffered from serious lung issues as a child, but the RAF put him through loads of medical tests and he was cleared. If you have Asthma they wouldn't even bother doing those exams.

The Navy have been much more helpful though.

[c-bert]

I believe if you develop Asthma as serving air crew things can be done, but not as a civvy.

[Grumpy106]

I had been diagnosed as asthmatic by a locum GP at RAF Boulmer before I applied for flying duties. I was convinced that it was not asthma, but an allergy to cats (of which I had just inherited 2), but the easiest thing for the GP to diagnose was asthma, so there it was on my records, and there I was with both a brown and a blue inhaler. When I decided that I wanted to apply for AWACS duties, my history of 'asthma' precluded this. I therefore insisted that I was not asthmatic, but suffered from allergies (particularly cats) which brought on asthma-like symptoms. The RAF therefore sent me to the Royal Brompton Hospital for a series of allergy tests. At the end of 24 hrs of being stuck with all sorts of allergens, they concluded that I was indeed allergic to a variety of things, particularly cats, which caused asthma-like symptoms. I was therefore cleared for flying duties (provided there were no cats on board the aircraft!!) and spent 10 happy years on the E-3D.

My advice therefore is to ensure that it is actually asthma you suffer from, and if it could be asthmatic symptoms brought on by something else, push for the correct set of tests. Good luck.

[Wensleydale]

I was therefore cleared for flying duties (provided there were no cats on board the aircraft!!) and spent 10 happy years on the E-3D.


I thought that quite a few aircrew on the AWACS had Combat Ready Cats?

Hat/Coat etc.:hmm:

[Tourist]

Grumpy

Being cleared to fly in the back of an E3 is not quite the same as being real aircrew which is what Adamski is after I believe.

[c-bert]

My advice therefore is to ensure that it is actually asthma you suffer from, and if it could be asthmatic symptoms brought on by something else, push for the correct set of tests. Good luck.

Bugger. Wish I'd known this 10 years ago. :*

[OneFifty]

Adamski

When did you last get a pump prescribed to you?

[getsometimein]

Being cleared to fly in the back of an E3 is not quite the same as being real aircrew which is what Adamski is after I believe.
So rear-crew are not "real aircrew" then?

Whole big can of worms you are opening up there matey.

[Aerouk]

Tourist,

You can't join the RAF on any aircrew position if you have a history of Asthma, even the back of an E3.

[barnstormer1968]

You can't join the RAF one any aircrew position if you suffer from Asthma,
even the back of an E3.

Surely you can't join the RAF at all if you have asthma.

At the end of the day, anyone with asthma can be a complete liability to their
comrades at certain times, and should not be allowed antwhere near military
service.

It's all well and good wanting to join, but the military is a team thing........
Are you likely to let your asthmatic buddy do the 'sniff test' under chemical
warfare conditions, and then trust him when he says "it's all clear. No chemical agent present. I'm just a bit short of breath because I'm asthmatic!:eek:

[Aerouk]

Sorry... I mean't have a history of Asthma, not if you have Asthma.

I know fine well that Asthma is a dangerous condition and can kill people, but for the RAF to refuse anyone with the smallest sign of Asthmatic history is terrible.

If the CAA and the rest of the worlds Air Force have no problem with a history of Asthma then why do the RAF? Why do they refuse to give you the right to prove yourself but give anyone else the chance?

It's very easy for children to get Asthma written on their health records even when they don't suffer from it, especially when children get viral infections and many other conditions that bring on Asthma like symptoms.

[vecvechookattack]

I know fine well that Asthma is a dangerous condition and can kill people, but for the RAF to refuse anyone with the smallest sign of Asthmatic history is terrible.

If the CAA and the rest of the worlds Air Force have no problem with a history of Asthma then why do the RAF? Why do they refuse to give you the right to prove yourself but give anyone else the chance?


Fella,

The RAF is not a private flying Club (Well, not during the weekends anyway). This is an military unit you are trying to join not the Balloon corps.... If you have any history of coughing or wheezing then you are are a liability and are not welcome in our club.

[Adamski614]

When I was about 6 or 7. I am now 23.

[dropintheoggin]

I hate to say it but, in the current climate and with the substantial drop in IPS (Into Productive Service) requirements for aircrew, the guys at the Selection Centre can probably be as strict as they like on the rules and regulations. I'm not suggesting for a minute that they don't follow the rules, I just think that they are less likely to humour an appeal than perhaps they might have done 10 years ago.

As an aside, I had a mate at school who faked asthma to get out of cross-country running. Imagine his displeasure when he failed his RAF selection medical. Don't fake asthma kids, get out and get running!

[Tourist]

CirrusF

All your story makes clear is that it is better to lie about inconsequential things like possible childhood asthma, than end up bitterly frequenting the pages of a forum upon which one has no right to post.

[Aerouk]

RAF High command eh? Whoever they are I am sure that they and the secretary of state for?????????????????? have more pressing matters to deal with rather than answer some silly school boys questions about the recruitment policy on asthma, which is clearly stated on the RAF careers website.

Are you really asking me which Secretary of State I asked? What do you think? The one for climate change?

It's a silly school boy question that affects thousands of applicants a year and is a subject that even the AFCOs that I've spoken to are unclear about so I see no reason why asking them was such a big issue.... Oh and by the way... according to the RAF HC letter I got they said

any potential recruit with a medical history of asthma after the age of 4, is ineligible to join as aircrew

Apparently it's in Joint Service Publication, chapter 3, leaflet 5 which goes against the websites advice.

Childhood Asthma certainly never prevented my father from fighting up Tumbledown Mountain.

All I'm asking is that those who are clear of Asthma are given the chance to prove they are at the same level as any other potential aircrew recruit.

[CirrusF]

Tourist

Not bitter at all - you just confirm to me that the RAF have low standards of integrity if they accept candidates who lie at their medicals. I knew full well, even in 1985, that telling the truth would (under the rules at the time) preclude me from entering the RAF. I told the truth, because that is what I believed was the correct thing to do, and in the hope that in the long run the policy would be changed.

It is to the shame of the RAF that they are still accepting people who choose to lie about childhood asthma, over those who tell the truth.

I don't regret for an instance that I told the truth in 1985 aged 22. I have still never told a lie in my adult life, and that gives me far more satisfaction and pride than would have been the case had I served in the RAF knowing that I had lied to join.

[Tourist]

"I have still never told a lie in my adult life"

You must be such a joy to be near.:rolleyes:

Incidentally, I'm RN not RAF, but would freely admit to being willing to sacrifice both my integrity and probably my anal virginity, if thats what it took to get into the Fleet Air Arm. (before anyone asks, it didn't. I saved that for 309 course:eek:)

There's no point in being a loser with integrity.

[Archimedes]

How did a request for help from Adamski turn into a vehicle for Cirrus F to display - not for the first time - his near pathological hatred for the RAF, as ever informed with flashes of his own unique brand of logic? :confused:

Adamski - I'm afraid I don't have an answer, but if you've not done so already, use the advanced search function for "lung function test" and try 'asthma' and 'specialist' as a different search since memory suggests that might give you some pointers - although I can't vouch for how helpful they'll be, I'm afraid. Again, if memory serves, you may find some possible angles you've not considered.

Forgive me if this is all old hat to you, but to weed through the search function -

Put in +lung +function +test (make sure you put the + signs in the search box and have the symbol up against the word - e.g. not "+ [gap] function" but "+function") and another search using +asthma +specialist. Do it for this forum only and make sure that you show results as posts, otherwise you could be here for days. Good luck.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

All I'm asking is that those who are clear of Asthma are given the chance to prove they are at the same level as any other potential aircrew recruit.

It doesn't take much Googling to find studies into the effects of altitude, pressurisation or high oxygen saturation on asthma-damaged or affected lungs. Likewise, you can find plenty of evidence regarding the likelihood of childhood asthma emerging again in adulthood. Just being able to run a marathon now, or being what you'd term as "fit," simply doesn't mean you're medically suitable for flying.

You might be able to run up a hill better than any other aircrew applicant, but when you look at the cost of the training system, someone with a history of asthma is simply a bigger risk. In a system with so many applicants for every post, why take the chance?

If you were misdiagnosed, get it fixed. If you had asthma, sorry, but you can't join, and wibbling about it being "unfair" won't help anyone!

[Adamski614]

Right, let me clear one thing up chap... I asked a perfectly reasonable question and some people kindly offered advice. This is not a place for you to rant at someone who has said something that offends your more sensitive impatient side. Yes, some people write immotively, but they merely have a common interest or problem, that they possibly can't express in a better way. So they fill this is a good place to discuss it. They don't intend to upset nor aggrevate anyone, therefore do not deserve to have someone with a clear lack of knowledge around military aviation, have a random 'rant' at them in such a poorly, unsensitive manner. You offer no advice or words of wisdom. In future please read the initial post and reply to that if you have something relevant to input into the thread. May I add, 'if' is the operative word in that sentence. Please consider an aggressive reply as all I have pointed out are true misgivings on your part, that I'm sure you'll see, if you are somewhat reasonable, that you could possibly avoid in the future. Luckily I have a fruitful career in aviation, some being military and your words do not deter me from using this site as there are many interesting people on here.

May I also say thank you for everyone who has contributed in a positive manner, whether being the bearers of bad or good news.

Thank you.

[Tourist]

Adamski

May I direct your attention to this:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/252133-wheezy-boys.html

[Typhoon93]

I've actually spoken to the Secretary of State and the RAF High Command about this and neither were willing to budge on the matter. I've spoken to aviation doctors, asthma specialists, military medical doctors (from other countries) and they've all said the policy is ridiculous. The US Air Force doesn't seem to have any issue with it either so I really don't understand why the RAF do. I think they use it to cut down the number of applications, which isn't right in my opinion.

If you had suffered from cancer you would have a better chance of joining the RAF than someone who has had mild asthma. I had a mate who suffered from serious lung issues as a child, but the RAF put him through loads of medical tests and he was cleared. If you have Asthma they wouldn't even bother doing those exams.

The Navy have been much more helpful though.

Firstly, I apologise for the massive thread resurrection, however most aviation searches come up with PPRuNe threads!

Aerouk, did your mate apply for an Aircrew role?



A search also revealed this: Asthma in military aviators: safe flying is possible. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16909878)

Are there any other significant air forces in the world who take such a dim view of aircrew applicants with a history of asthma? Or is it just the RAF?

[Trim Stab]

The RAF still do not specifically exclude tobacco smokers from their recruitment so there is clearly something very, very wrong with their admissions standards.

[Typhoon93]

When compared to mild asthma symptoms as a child, I'm inclined to agree.

There is a lot of evidence out there that shows permanent lung scaring, and in many cases quite severe scarring for heavy, long term smokers...but you can "grow out" of asthma. My history with cancer sticks is many times more likely to stop me getting in to the Service than my past 'history' :rolleyes: of asthma, as my lungs are healthy now, and considering I rarely used my inhalers when I had them, I'm doing OK!

Asthmatics, and I mean people with 'proper' Asthma, need to use a preventer every day and a reliever when they need it. I didn't do that! So I think my GPs have been talking b*llocks and it's something I need to get sorted and cleared off my history. Has anybody been considered for Aircrew in these circumstances?