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16th Jul 2001, 02:37
This is an open letter to all pilots seeking employment with Cathay Pacific.

Please pass this on if you know of anyone currently considering Cathay. Please read carefully if this applies to you. My apologies for the length of this letter but you must be aware of the implications of pursuing Cathay at this time.

Cathay Pacific is now in an industrial dispute with its aircrew. The aircrew are negotiating through the Hong Kong Aircrew association (HKAOA). The association represents approximately 87% of the aircrew at Cathay Pacific. The current dispute is over our next contract. That contract will expire this year for some and next for others. The expiring contract was forced upon the aircrew in 1999. The choice was sign and accept lesser terms of employment or to be fired. In protest there was a mass sick out. However management prevailed and the contract was enforced. In order to slow the current negotiations down the management has not allowed the AOA negotiators to have the required time off, have set long timetables, and refused to release employment and financial data to the AOA so that they might submit realistic proposals. The current negotiations are meant to solve both the rostering and monetary issues. At this time we do not have any control over the roster. There is no overtime. There is no extra pay for extra work. You can be on the road for 22 days a month, with only 2 or 3 days in between. There are three pay scales, within which there are many differing conditions of service and benefits, and our retirement scheme will not last more than a few years after retirement. On all of these issues the company has remained hard lined and unwilling to compromise.

This brings us to where we are today and why it affects you the interview candidate so directly. As of July 1st in an effort to put pressure on management to negotiate fairly and timely, an incremental step was taken in our contract compliance. As you may or may not know we have been following contract compliance for a year and a half. That means we are working to the letter of our contracts and no more. Hardly seems like a problem until you realize that 10 to 15% of the roster is covered by unpaid overtime. So our next step has been a campaign called "Maximum safety ". This means that we read all the notices we are required, do not rush preparations, and do our job to the safest level. As a result every flight will encounter delays, as there is insufficient time allotted for these tasks. If this does not sound like a big threat you will be surprised that the company’s reaction was so harsh. The company has elected to react in a disproportional manner and have fired 52 pilots. They have chosen Captains and First officers associated with the AOA as well as outspoken or critical members. Not one of these terminations would be legal in North America. There is the threat of continued firing until we the AOA submit.

So that brings us up to date. If you are in the interview pipeline, it is unfortunate timing. If you were to join Cathay now you would be replacing union members who were fired for their union affiliations. I cannot tell you what the ramifications may be, but it will affect your long-term outlook at Cathay. I regret that it must be this way, I regret that our company has decided to wage war on our pilots, and I regret that you will not be able to take advantage of what may seem like a good opportunity. So please put off any interviews, and put off any job offers, until this dispute is over, until our 52 comrades are reinstated. Then and only then will you join a company worth giving your life to, and only then can you join in good conscience.

Thank you for your time

At war in Hong Kong

16th Jul 2001, 10:52
cxwannabe - I personally think your open letter is a little extreme. Is it official AOA policy? I also suspect it is a move your management have well predicted and would turn it around against the union.

Anyone who has accepted an interview is not accepting a job offer - he hasn't even made it through the interview process. Surely he has the right to listen to the company line at least?

Any new recruit is also a potential AOA member.

Simply turning up to an interview is not going to replace anyone's job - yet.

16th Jul 2001, 11:20
I'd had to concur with mcdude. Although I can see that the union would do anything to reinstate their buddies.
....at the end of the day, without wanting to exploit the misery of fellow pilots, I'd sing on give the chance.

Non-the less I wish all AOA members the best of luck. Hag in there!

16th Jul 2001, 12:08
Sorry chaps. Any pilot that goes for an interview before this dispute is settled is potentially replacing a pilot that was fired for NO GOOD REASON.

Anybody with half a conscience would put off any dealings with a company that treats its employees in such a cavalier way. At least until a satisfactory outcome is achieved.

Cxwannabee, good luck with your campaign.

16th Jul 2001, 12:27
Why would any one want to rejoin a company that treats you unfairly and fires employees for no good reason. It would make sense working elsewhere where you are treated humanely for less pay.

16th Jul 2001, 13:44
An interview is just that so no problem surely in continuing what can be a long process.
Instead of wasting your time making idle threats here you CX wannabes ought to either do something about your sacked colleagues or give up. The company are reinstating services and look like they are winning.
You don't look very tough so far.

16th Jul 2001, 19:36
I think it would be a rare person indeed who would turn down a job offer from Cathay - regardless of the the circumstances. The kind of threats posted by CXwannabe don't help the sacked pilots and wouldn't effect most peoples decision whether to join Cathay or not.

Even the revised contracts offered by Cathay far outweigh anything on offer in Europe so, cxwannabe, whilst we all no doubt feel sorry for the sacked pilots, I'm afraid you're dreaming if you think those pilots who are lucky enough to be in the frame for a job offer with Cathay are going to turn it down just because you tell them to.

Dropp the Pilot
16th Jul 2001, 19:56
"Not one of these sackings would be legal in North America"...

Quite true, I think what they would best be defined as is brilliant sackings, correct sackings, and your-move-next, brother-sackings....

And by the way, next time you meet a Party member from Beijing ask him how close he feels to North America. :rolleyes:

16th Jul 2001, 22:27
Well at least this time you kept the threats and name-calling from your post good on ya...it is a very bad situation down there now, the nightmare of any expat/contract pilot, as we all are...we are not in north america, we are expats...outsiders if you wish...to the same end, we may not expect the level of protection, negotiating power an employee of a unionized north american carrier enjoys..a pilot in north america for a non-union carrier could possibly find him/herself in the very situation you are experiencing in the harbour many already have..it is unfair to ask potential cx employees to take into consideration the jobs of people who were willing to place that very job in jeopardy by taking action against their employer, regardless of how unfair the situation..if someone sees the current situation in HKG and is willing to accept employment there, then they most surely should expect more of the same down the road....

16th Jul 2001, 22:47
Threats and name calling....hmmmm ironbutt57, just refresh our memories why you were thrown off the site not sooo long ago? :D

16th Jul 2001, 23:04
mmmmmmm me thinks that the resposes here are not good, seen it all in 89, I think you should stay out of something you dont understand.

Alien Shores
16th Jul 2001, 23:34
Wow, Ironbutt, does that kind of twisted logic flow naturally or do you have to work at it? The between-the-lines message for all potential CX employees is "do you want to work for an employer who can sakc its staff at will?"

They are not on strike they are working to rule, and CX management singled out whom they wished to fire.

You are welcome to that, but anyone who takes a job with them before the 'dispute' is settled does so knowing that they are a/ weakening the negotiating posotion of their prospective colleagues, and b/ playing into the hands of a cynical, manipulative mangement with no regard for the airline's wellbeing but every regard for their own position before leaving Hong Kong and moving elsewhere.

Your call. I'd would never accept a job with a company in dispute, no matter how tempting. But then, that's called principles.

17th Jul 2001, 11:17
"assumed control"? wow would hate to see what happens when you lose it..twisted logic, just the facts as we see it

17th Jul 2001, 12:45
Alien Shores

As long as friends of Mr Peart are around, the voice of balance and reason will always be heard. Must Rush!

From another poet. W. :cool:

18th Jul 2001, 18:50
CX Wannabe - I do agree that I should walk away from years worth of study and self sacrifice and return to my job that pays about 0ne third of a Cathay SO salary so that you may get out of bed every morning and go fly your four engine jet. (not)

(if you do really fly for CX and not just trying to get rid of the opposition.)
Do not get lost in your world of delusionary self importance.
Correct me if I am wrong but all of those unfortunate fellows sacked were captains or FOs. Then perhaps you should look at currently employed pilots at CX refusing promotion to fill those gaps and leave struggling GA pilots alone.
OOPS..... that might include you now. :cool:

18th Jul 2001, 21:58
I'm not a pilot with CX...

Anybody interested in a pos. with CX, please read Alien Shores reply a couple of times before joining during the dispute.

As a couple of people have already said, you're not going to be a "scab" by definition, but...

I know a bunch of people who regret a simple and attractive move they did many moons ago that have limit their field of work immensely.


Truth Seekers Int'nl
20th Jul 2001, 14:59
I don't want to upset anyone here but I think it's time to stop the bullsh!t. I am in the CX interview system right now and have NO INTENTION of refusing,putting off,stalling or whatever other words you like to call it to satisfy the HKAOA in its march towards self destruction. I witnessed the pilots strike in Oz in '89 and a couple of my mates (both with AN) will never ever get back into aviation because of the faith they put into the AFAP and where are the AFAP now? Don't get me wrong I don't hate unions but they are not going to run my life and career opportunities. I still owe my folks a lot of money for my flying lessons and am not going to be able to repay it on my present salary and paying Oz tax.
I don't like the company I work for at present and have been trying to secure employment elsewhere for sometime now. Have finally got the break and am not going to sacrifice it. Sorry, but you have to get a life sometimes and be thankful for good money and even C scalers are on bloody good dough with Cathay.

Old Scrotum
20th Jul 2001, 15:55
From one who did 15yrs in CX from the good times to the now terrible state of affairs, be warned!! It was brilliant, it knocked spots of the rest but the winds of unscrupulous change have been blowing for 8 years now. I hear what is said but thank goodness I am out of it now. My commiserations to those who have principles and morals and have been fired as there is none in the leaders of CX these days. Be warned IT IS NOT A HAPPY PLACE TO WORK AT ANYMORE, unfortunatly.

The Resistance
20th Jul 2001, 18:33
Truth Seeker (...more like, blind to the truth). Be forewarned. If you join this airline prior to the 50+ sacked aircrew getting their places back....you WILL find yourself enduring a VERY miserable career (a short one no doubt). We are fighting for our professional lives, and the restoration of our professional standing. People who come on board now will be seen as undermining the risk and effort of ALL 1400 of the presently employed crew. We will NOT tolerate ANYONE seeking to make our lives even MORE difficult than they already are.

It is not a question of you choosing to work for CX. It is ONLY a question of being seen to put at risk the return of our 50+ colleagues and friends (not to mention the welfare of their families). If you want to join this sad outfit....fine, WAIT until our colleagues are back at work. To join now will PROVE to be the BIGGEST mistake of your obviously young and new career. This profession is constantly being undermined and devalued by people such as yourself who put expedience ahead of morals. We have VERY LONG memories, and we will NOT forget who the individuals are who join during this time. You have been warned.

great southern land
20th Jul 2001, 18:43
Truth Seeker. You mention the 'HKAOA march to destruction'. That shows how little you understand the situation. The AOA is doing NOTHING other than working to the letter of the company ops manuals. That withdrawal of goodwill is enough to bring this shambles to a halt. Even that legal and reasonable job-action was enough for the venal management of CX to sack 50+ crew. Why would you want to work for a mob who can destroy peoples career and families because of something you are LEGALLY doing...?

My point is this. It is YOU who would be marching to professional destruction if you join this company during this dispute. We will be completely and utterly unaccepting of anyone who joins before this is settled. I think you need to contemplate what it will be like being TOTALLY ostracised and ignored on EVERY trip you do. We will have the list....every one of us....and we WILL make sure that you are aware EACH AND EVERY TIME you come to work that we hold you in the highest contempt.

We are fighting for 50+ friends and colleagues. We know their families, their children. We will NOT abandon them. If you are to arrive putting them at risk....you will deserve all the misery that will surely follow your every day at CX. Wait until this is over...then join. Not a day before.

Dropp the Pilot
20th Jul 2001, 19:16
Do not seek the truth, Truth Seeker, for verily you have found it!

You say you don't hate unions now, but you seem to be a practical, ambitious, forward thinking individual (emphasis on the individual) so trust me, you will hate them soon.

If you will take the Chief Pilot job, I'll consider something in training.....

Death to collectivism...

20th Jul 2001, 23:38
Great Southern Land and others- if it is such a "shambles", if you hate it so much, why not bog off and let those who actually WANT to work there have a go??? CX will never be what it once was.

Onya TSI, go for it!!

The Resistance
21st Jul 2001, 00:33
MOR. It never ceases to amaze me how naieve and childish some peoples arguements are. You suggest that just because I am 'not happy' with the conditions anymore, I should just pack up and leave (and the REST of the 1400 pilots that feel EXACTLY that way...).

What a permanent 'gift' to management THAT would be....! How easy would it then be for the company. Whenever
the company decided the pilots were starting to earn too much.....just start 'messing them around', make them unhappy, and then, according to your 'logic', they should quit, so they can hire some cheaper replacements. I have worked 12 years for this company, and I have right to stay and fight for what I deserve, and my family deserves. I would certainly rather endure the battle and stress than walk away just for the likes of someone as immoral and naieve as you to take my job. Grow up, and realise what you are saying. You are a fool.

mngmt mole
21st Jul 2001, 00:41
You lot are obviously happy to work for what 'you are worth'. Sadly, you probably deserve exatly what you get. To ignore the important battle that the CX pilots are fighting, just so you can slot into thier jobs shows just how unworthy you are for ANY place in this profession. I am sure your children will be REALLY proud of you and how principled you are..... You make me sick. It is no wonder that you will spend your days at the periphery of this profession, always seen for the losers you obviously are. What sort of a world would it be if everyone behaved based on the attitudes you display. Frightening.

Flame Out
21st Jul 2001, 05:48
What a load of bs. The only one to blame here is the HKAOA for being such weak outfit. How can you fire pilots for "sick out", "work to rule", "work slow down"? Where I come from this is illegal.

CX pilots are "not" on strike and on the same token the new hires are "not" crossing the picket line and therefore they are not "scabs". They would have been hired anyway since they were already down the so call interview pipeline. Don't direct your anger towards the new hires. Like you said; it's just bad timing. If you play the game then you have to know the rules.

I don't work for CX and have no intention to. If you want what you deserve then get a real union.

[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: Flame Out ]

21st Jul 2001, 07:17
Think they would rather moan and groan here.
And it will only get worse, suspect that the HKAOA don't have a prayer.
The HKG law will see to that.
Got that PR machine oiled up yet guys?
Have been watching the SCMP, not a page one story there.

21st Jul 2001, 08:25
cxwannabe & co

Can you confirm that the 52 pilot positions have not been filled by pilots from within Cx ie:natural seniority progression?

If the positions are still vacant because the pilots have refused to upgrade in protest over their sacked co-workers.Then I believe you have a valid argument,and therefore wish all the Cx pilots every success with the industrial action.

If on the other hand, the positions have been filled internally then by definition, you are a hypocrite's and basically full of BS.

I think it is a bit rich to threaten pilots who haven't even started with Cx,have no connection with the dispute and have probably been waiting for the oportunity for years. If they started hiring direct entry Capt's & FO's then,I believe you still have a valid argument. Personally I don't think hiring SO's at the bottom end is going to have much effect either way.

[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: E.K.G ]

Classic Dick
21st Jul 2001, 11:59
I would not hold out hope for the re-employment of the 52+ pilots that have been terminated. Knowing the Asian culture, reference loss of face, they will close the airline down and re employ from scratch rather than submit to more conditions from the AOA.

I do sympathise with Truth Seeker's plight and condemn the threats made to him by The Resistance and others. No one has the right to prevent a pilot pursuing his chosen career with the airline he chooses. I flew with many Australian pilots during my time with SQ and a majority were dissatisfied by the way the dispute was handled by their union. The resignation saga was particularly poor from an industrial point of view and there were a number of "office bearers" in the union that went back and signed individual contracts. Many junior pilots were left out of the industry forever as a result of this.

EKG is correct - Second Officers joining at the bottom of the list will make little difference to the outcome of this ego war between a petulant management and a group of highly paid and privileged professionals.

[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: Classic Dick ]

21st Jul 2001, 12:37
pocket pc,limited resources,pse xcuse abbrviatns.
evry1 entitled own decision.
potential scabs pse recall: unemployed: can get employed
scab: cannot get unscabbed

21st Jul 2001, 13:27
So let's hear the truth truth seeker..how many of you "united" cx pilots are refusing type or command training during this period...why is everybody unwilling to answer this question?..You're quick with the condemnation and threats to potential new hires, but do you apply the same standard to yourselves?

Liam Gallagher
21st Jul 2001, 15:01
This whole thread is somewhat premature.

To the best of my knowledge no upgrades have been offered as a result of the sackings. Training is already at full stretch and Management are still grappling with the idea of August's roster!

Me thinks all is not well in the rarified atmosphere of CX City.

21st Jul 2001, 21:35
Wow! This is amazing. From what I have read on this thread, many so called pilots are turning their back to the CX pilots and not supporting them for their fights. Remember, what comes around goes around!!

21st Jul 2001, 22:03
The Resistance

In fact, it is you who are the fool.

First, you try and tell me that you speak for 1400 pilots, which I don't believe for a minute. You speak for your own self-interest.

I never mentioned logic, but since you have, it is completely illogical to remain in a company where your conditions are being eroded (but still better than 90% of the rest of us), and where you a plainly unhappy. You a masochist, are you? It isn't going to get any better, you know. Ask your Aussie 89 colleagues.

Irrespective of how long you have worked there, you don't have any "rights" beyond legally enforceable employment laws. You don't "deserve" anything.

The reality is that you simply don't want to wake up and face the reality of the year 2001. The colonial haven that CX once was is ancient history. You are increasingly controlled by the Chinese who would laugh at your sentiments. You are the fool, and you are living in dreamland.

I wouldn't take your job for all the tea in (mainland) China. You can keep it (what little will be left after you have all destroyed it, that is).

In the meantime, keep your moronic threats to yourself, and let others find their own way.

21st Jul 2001, 22:05
Can someone advise as to what is ACTUALLY happening at CX? Saw an A340 in Amsterdam today, normally a B744 destination. So aircraft are still flying, but obviously not all. What exactly is going on? and all the best to all at CX

22nd Jul 2001, 05:52
Things the 30-something new guys don't understand... If you are an American and make it to retirement (55) without getting sacked, you are then faced with buying your own private medical insurance. As you have not been paying into Social Security, you will get a very reduced package. You may also NOT be eligable for Medicare at 62 or 65 since you haven't been paying for that either. First year pay looks great compard to first year pay at a major, but what about 2nd year pay? What about your retirement fund? There is no 401-K sheltering as CX will not set up an approved plan with the IRS. Speaking of the IRS, CX does withhold for them, so you will be paying HK tax as well as being withheld for your US tax liability. As a US citizen, all of your HK salary, regardless of where it is earned, is taxable by the IRS. IF you spent 60 days a year in HK (and you will) you owe the SAR 15%. Think! Think! Think, before you spent 6 months in HK doing a six week conversion. Did I mention you'll get one landing a month? One free pass a year for you and your family? No jumpseat agreements? And 30 to 40 hours per month of deading around in the back (and I mean Y-class) of an airplane for no credit or overtime? Think about it. You just might want to do something else.

Snake Hips
22nd Jul 2001, 07:18
These posts make interesting reading but The
Resistance and others may need to rethink their priorities in life. I will repeat the gist of my recent posting on Fragrant Harbour.

The AOA have totally underestimated the resolve of the shareholders in London and, more importantly, Beijing. This apalling error of judgement, for that is what it is, has cost 52 crew, many with families to support, their jobs. There are no circumstances under which this group will be reinstated; I am truly sorry.

CX groundstaff (the other 14,000+ guys and gals) have little or no sympathy for the plight of this group and the people of Hong Kong have even less although I doubt this is a major concern to the AOA. Local Government and the Mainland (which would have to authorize the charter aircraft) quite clearly support the management stance. As many have pointed our, labour protection laws in Hong Kong do not offer very much to employees. The constant 'this couldn't happen in North America' post is therefore irrelevant. Did Marty fully understand this?

Accept these facts and get your union to
start talking to the company again. What do you have to lose? Self respect never fed or educated a family.

To those who want to join CX, apply get interviewed and, if offered a job, make an informed decision. No one of forcing you to join, you might even like it, many of us do.
Great night life!

Resistance and the others (these are the guys often overheard in the First Class cabin plotting the downfall of the airline whilst tucking into vintage Krug and Lynch Bages). Isn't it time to make some choices? I know, because of the archaic seniority system, it is difficult to move to a similar level within another airline. There are however contract opportunities, SIA for one recently. Surely you cannot continue to stay within an organsiation whose management you despise? It cannot be good for you, all this anger. It must be time to stand back assess what is important...health, family, happiness, work?

I await the vitriol.............

Kaptin M
22nd Jul 2001, 07:34
Snake,I detect more than touch of envy with your quip:
Resistance and the others (these are the guys often overheard in the First Class cabin plotting the downfall of the airline whilst tucking into vintage Krug and Lynch Bages).

It is CX MANAGEMENT who made the disastrous and expensive pre-emptive STRIKE by UNNECESSARILY chartering the wet-leased aircraft - this is what is costing Cathay Pacific MEGA MILLIONS....MANAGEMENT`S FOOLISH, IRRESPONSIBLE, UNNACCOUNTABLE actions coupled with a refsal to acknowledge present world market factors, and the REAL need to FIX a problem with their crews.

Speaking with several Dragonair pax a couple of days ago, and their opinion is management of CX are deliberately attempting to bait the pilots into an all out strike to try to save face for their 10 MILLION dollar-a-day blunder (with the chartered aircraft).

How about some meaningful discussion instead of continuing down this damaging path!

[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]

Snake Hips
22nd Jul 2001, 08:27
Kaptin M

Not envy, simply a fact. By the way I think the current Lynch Bages is a tad overrated.
Actually meant to be a word of caution. Take it or leave it. Let's just say I understand several of the arch exponents of this art are no longer employed. Beware your travelling companions!

As far as 'meaningful discussion' is concerned, I had hoped to try and alert those
involved within aircrew of the level of support management enjoys from the shareholders, it is enormous. Every time I try and do this, I get shot down so I don't think I will bother any more.

As far as pre-emptive stikes are concerned, think it through. How do you think the company obtained Hong Kong Government support? Think it through Kaptin, you are not daft.

Finally don't believe all you read or all you are fed. The cost of a Chinese chartered
aircraft (which was patently surplus to their own airline's operational requirements (read cheap)) is less than you may think. Remember CX retains all the revenues from these flights. Yes the fixed costs (CX crews) still exist, but the maths are not quite as bad as portrayed. In fact, the maths get better and better the more aircraft are deployed. The nightmare scenario, downsize, rehire people who want to work for the airline etc. is highly manageable, albeit dreadfully sad.

This is not the path anyone wants.

22nd Jul 2001, 10:23
Wonderful, Snake!

Were can I drop my application?

22nd Jul 2001, 10:24
This is a pilots forum NOT a management forum so please guys be mindful that many of the above comments are NOT pilot comments. The intent is so obvious and it is just one part of the propaganda program. Any and all means are being used by the company.

Be careful

Truth Seekers Int'nl
22nd Jul 2001, 14:07
Thankyou for your support Snake Hips. It's OK now,one of the other candidates on the interview list rang Hong Kong on Friday and has contacted me to say that Cathay will not tolerate any nonsense regarding the new recruits and any incidents will be viewed very seriously by the Company. There are five of us down here that WILL be attending first round interviews shortly - we won't be intimidated from now on as Cathay has assured us there full support.

Snake Hips
22nd Jul 2001, 14:17
Truth Seeker

Good luck. As I said, make an INFORMED decision. If you want some unbiased views
about living in HK then try and grab a beer with some ground expats (not Swires, they have a different deal). No axe to grind, you'll get an honest opinion.

22nd Jul 2001, 22:47

Were/how are you applying?

23rd Jul 2001, 01:44

I would have said the nightmare scenario would be one of these chartered a/c having a serious incident - statistically, not that unlikely (unfortunately).

I think heads would roll, and a lot of managers would have a hard time explaining THAT one away.

Those of you thinking of joining (even if this wasn't going on), must be absolutely out of ideas. I speak as one of the many that left over the last few years. If you think this will revive your fortunes, both financial and left-seat expectations, you have grossly failed in your research. If you have questions, feel free to e-mail me, and I will give you an un-biased (because I still wish CX well - both sides: I wish they could sort this out, it's been going on too long) run down on living expenses, time to command, etc.

23rd Jul 2001, 03:51
I think if that were to happen both sides would have a lot of explaining to do to the HK public. Bad news all round guys.

Snake Hips
23rd Jul 2001, 06:20

Yes agree the scenario you describe would be too awful to contemplate and bad news for everyone (i.e both sides). However, these carriers do comply with all statutory and operational requirments as laid down by the regulator (CAD) so I could see an interesting argument ensuing. Let's just hope this mess is sorted out soon.

Good to see your offer of some unbiased information to wannabees. In terms of progression you will be aware of the long term fleet growth plans?

fullforward - Fax Tony Penny 852 23506596
for details.


23rd Jul 2001, 08:42
Thanks, buddy!

23rd Jul 2001, 10:00
Ok guys, on the table with it; did any CX pilot(s) show their true union spirit by refusing upgrade? If yes, where I`m coming from you`ve got a case.

Liam Gallagher
23rd Jul 2001, 13:28

As stated previously, it's early days.

Anyone who commenced upgrade since the sackings (some 2 weeks ago) would have received the offer months ago and they are IMHO entitled to the upgrade. The question of accepted/rejecting upgrades is presently meaningless. Each CX pilot is perhaps grapling with some far more basic issues.

By way of background, any management pilot brave enough to speak to a line pilot distances himself (by about a 1,000 miles) from the decision to fire 3+49 pilots. Even the DFO (Chief Pilot..kind of?) put pen to paper to explain that the utmost external pressure was placed upon CX to bring a closure to the dispute. Needless to say we are now even further from closure.

In short, it would appear that Flt Ops were caught off guard by the decision to sack and it will be sometime before they come up with a plan to make future rosters work (not that our previous rosters were that sound).

The AOA, however, expected sackings and other forms of intimidation. Prior to the vote for limited industrial action, the President of the AOA wrote to every pilot explaining his own thoughts on the consequences of a "Yes" vote. Regrettably, his predictions have been correct.

The sackings have had a profound effect upon us all. Given that many of the guys fired, their wives, kids are/were all friends, neighbours, classmates, it is hard to countenance the thought of any of us profiting by their sacking. Further, we all have been served notice that what we viewed as our "careers" with CX are just disposable 3 month contracts.

Whilst perhaps we all had our agendas (HK based/overseas based, local/expat, commuters), all now have the sole focus of continuing the pressure to get the company back to the negotiating table. The pressure will no doubt take many forms, but there is IMHO a very real and deep feeling over this matter.

It would therefore seem that this whole dispute has many more twists and turns. You simply cannot solely read Pprune and try and gauge what is going on. It has to be appreciated that the AOA has it's own secure Cpprune site and the current activity on that site would exceed the entire pprune site.

Further, the AOA has long realised that it was never going to win over the HK public, so it has preserved its resources in anticipation of a long fight. The company however, wished for a short, explosive, fight. Whilst the well prepared and funded Cx publicity machine gave us a pounding in the first fortnight, the expat press is now starting to ask some searching questions given that this dispute still bubbles along.

Nonetheless, this matter is not going to be decided by the public or the press; it's not an election; so to judge us by what you read here or in the SCMP is folly.

Anyone genuinely interested in this dispute would be wise to cast their net wide and far for information and even then keep an open mind; I know I am!

[ 23 July 2001: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]

23rd Jul 2001, 13:47
Same logic then applies to job seekers at cx many had recieved interview invites before the job action, also several had recieved job offers...so in both cases commands and interviews and new-hire classes should not be a part of the ongiongs at cx..so IFALPA is out of line putting an embargo on cx new hires...it would be just as easy for a current cx piulot to refuse to carry through with a command that was offered some time ago, as it would be for a prospective new hire to accept the offer of employment...

Kaptin M
23rd Jul 2001, 17:54
IMHO, a temporary "blanket" training "ban" on ALL training is the only FAIR solution - and a move that will enforce the point of view of ALL the pilots (to the company}.

This effectively takes "the heat" off the new hires, and the upgrades, and allows the TC's an extended training period - as required - because of outside duress.

IF CX management are willing to persist with a prolonged dispute, costing hundreds of millions of dollars from the shareholders' coffers, will only further the belief that any cry of "we cannot it!!", a hollow ring by an UNACCOUNTABLE, EXCESSIVE management!

To date, this dispute has taken MORE THAN 210 MILLION DOLLARS from the shareholders pockets, in a matter of only 20 days.....

If any employee cost their company even 1% of that figure, he would have been summarily dismissed. The current CX management has made an admirable stuff-up according to ANY figuring, as the pilots have done nothing more (or less) than to work to the exact letter of their contract.
That they CHOSE to DONATE "goodwill" to their employer previously should only be viewed in the context of "give and take"!

23rd Jul 2001, 19:46
Agreed!!!!If one expects the rpospective new hires to forgo the opportunity, then opportunities inside the company should be passed up as well...my last post was in reference to an earlier one above...

24th Jul 2001, 01:11
whats good for the goose is good for the gander!

i understand that the 'new' contracts and payrises are NOT compulsory. pilots must accept or refuse them by 31 july.

while a couple on this site appear bent on intimidating potential 'new hires'....you should set the example by refusing upgrades and not accepting the supposed 'imposed' payrise.

if you dont, i believe you have no right to harass those who are already involved in the interview recruitment process.

leadership starts at the top.

that said, your input on the 'state of the nations at CX' is invaluable; thanks for that and good luck, but lets keep it fair chaps.

Liam Gallagher
24th Jul 2001, 02:59
Be in no doubt, I am not aligning myself with the two contributors purporting to be CX pilots who sought to intimidate new joiners.

Frankly, this issue is not in forefront of most CX 's minds. To try and get the sacked pilots their jobs back by a recruitment/upgrade embargo is last ditch stuff. Equally, we all have received a letter from the DFO saying that whilst he cannot take action against the union leadership for inciting us to take limited industrial action, he can and, indeed will, take action against any individual who takes actions to the detriment of the company. In sum, at forefront of most guys minds are more effective and less "dangerous" ways of attaining reinstatement.

One writer has mentioned the "pay-rise". The company has done a good job on the PR. To call it a pay rise is perhaps a stretch of the English language. For the A-scalers, about 30% of the pilots, it is not a pay-rise at all as even the company admits it should be a counter-balance for the pay cut they took on the 1st July. For the Freighter guys, about 20% of the pilots, it doesn't kick in until the 1 January 2002 and co-incidences with their pay review (guess what the pay review be?). For the B-scalers, the remaining 50%, yes it is an increase in earnings. However, for everyone, it comes as part of a non-negotiated re-write to the way we are rostered and paid. The company admits we are at liberty to reject the money, however the company appears not to be offering us the right to reject the re-write as well. So in my sole and humble opinion, to turn down the money, would at this stage be somewhere between symbolic and futile.

If Ironbutt or anyone else takes issue with IFALPA, then take it up with IFALPA either through your own union or directly. If you are not satified with their response then ignore the directive. However, a word of caution, before doing so it would seem prudent to check the exact wording of any IFALPA directive (should one exist).

It is very easy to shout from the sidelines and even easier to play quarterback on Monday morning from your armchair. Keep an open mind is all I/we ask.

Chimbu chuckles
24th Jul 2001, 14:17
Spoke to someone 'on the inside' today and it seems to me the AOA have the bases covered.
Stick to the plan guys....sounds like you have the very best 'adviser' available.
While the fat lady has not sung yet won't it be sweet when 411A etc have to swallow their words.


24th Jul 2001, 17:59
Does anybody know, what happend to those 52 sacked Pilots?
Im about to sign a contract with CX on the Freighter Fleet and getting really scared about the treatment of the pilots by the management. Is that in accordance with Hong Kong working law?
Is there a chance for the sacked Pilots to coninue with CX?
Many questions and a hard decision to be made.


24th Jul 2001, 18:36
A contract with cx
Ha ha ha ha aha ahaaaaaaaaha hhaaaaaaa hahahahahahah ha ahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Yes the the fired pilots will be back . No Dave No Deal!

24th Jul 2001, 19:51
Suspect that in the end, the pilots will accept the company offered contracts and pay raise (with minor changes), much the same as the very recent Comair dispute in the USA. All this consternation and misery for what could have been accepted in the first place.
'Tis a pity that some cannot learn from the mistakes of others in the same boat.
Could be worse....OZ in '89 for example.

24th Jul 2001, 19:59
Could be worse indeed, like being a sad old git in Fountain Hills with no life...

24th Jul 2001, 20:32
good old kubota, nothing of any substance to post, so we call people names instead...probably come out in this one just like they did the last one...and some big talking name caller like kubota will swallow it and get on with life

grand slam
24th Jul 2001, 23:36
This is now a power struggle that the AOA cannot win. The shareholders have backed the management, who will see it through to the bitter end. No amount of posturing will get the 52 back, neither will it prevent more sackings. However bad the CX contract is, it is better than no contract at all. It may not be as good as the pre-93 contract, but it is still better than almost all the European contracts, including Lufthansa's new one, and it is better than the Qantas contract. United and Delta may well be the targets, but falling short of what they have been given does not give one a bad deal.
Unpalatable though it may sound to those who relish warfare between employees and management, there would be no shortage of takers if direct entry commands were to be offered. Better to live to fight another day than to lose all in one unwinnable battle.

25th Jul 2001, 00:25
grand slam---
A very concise and well thought out post. Maybe it will change a few of the guys ideas, but suspect that severe pressure is being applied to many who would just like to settle and get on with flying. Wonder if the ring leaders in the HKAOA have an agenda, similar to Jimmy Hoffa in the Teamsters union so many years ago?

25th Jul 2001, 02:08
IB57, you and 411A are so positive all the time, you inspire me. Always a good word about your fellow aviators (if you are pilots at all) and their efforts to improve their lot. Your words of inspiration make me want to achieve so much more in my life, I talk about you two constantly on my flight deck and always let my junior crew members in on my role models. Keep it up. Don't falter in your task of motivating everyone in this business...You could be the next Bob Geldorf, or who knows, maybe a KBE, or an OBE? Perhaps one day your names will appear in the Smithsonian hall of fame?