Indonesia Crash

[Mars Attacks]

Early reports say its a 737-300

First picture of Boeing 737 crash near Indonesian airport on Twitpic (http://twitpic.com/1f8mec)

Boeing 737-300 Crashes In Manokwari, Indonesia - Thailand Forum (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Boeing-737-300-Crashes-Manokwari-t355864.html)

[Finn47]

A 737 belonging to Merpati Airlines has skidded off the runway into a shallow riverbed today while landing in heavy rain in West Papua, breaking up into pieces. Some 20 pax and/or crew reported injured.

Plane Crash In Indonesia | Merpati jet skids off Manokwari runway (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/passenger-plane-skids-off-runway-in-indonesia-20100413-s6dj.html)

[fox niner]

What flapsetting is that in the picture?

[Super VC-10]

Just seen this on Sky News. Aircraft involved is PK-MDF

[Virtual Reality]

I had avoided flying on any Indonesian carrier at all cost long time ago .....:ugh:

Its time to revise again the EU blacklist ........:eek:


VR

[Xeque]

This from the Sydney Morning Herald:
Plane Crash In Indonesia | Merpati jet skids off Manokwari runway (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/passenger-plane-skids-off-runway-in-indonesia-20100413-s6dj.html)
It appears to be the same piece as in the Melbourne Age newspaper.

[puff]

Merpati airline corporate secretary Sukandi suggested that rain played a part in the crash and ruled out pilot error.

"It was raining when the plane landed. The pilots followed all the safety procedures regarding landing in wet conditions," he said.


Right ! Case closed ! I reakon he failed to follow one rule about landing in wet conditions and that would be staying upon the runway, or perhaps that is a flaw in Indonesian procedures !

We have another member of the 'real men don't go around' club.

[jfkjohan]

I'm sure he didn't wake up in the morning thinking "i'm going to crash a plane today...". Am confident that there must have been something else amiss that has not been said yet. Eager to hear what the investigation uncovers.

[oldchina]

"there must have been something else amiss..."

Maybe it's corruption in the Indonesian authorities.

[HeadingSouth]

I eagerly await the "We've told you there was a serious accident waiting to happen in Indonesia" fraction to turn up before official statements become available.

corruption, bad training, mentality, amongst a few other main reasons will be the next few pages of this thread. oh and the presence of a check ride pilot too, obviously...

[Diamond Bob]

Plane was a 737-300. Check out where they ended up!! Photo and article in the Aviation Herald http://avherald.com/h?article=42a0d9ad

http://avherald.com/img/merpati_b733_manokwari_100413_map1.jpg

[IFixPlanes]

...Its time to revise again the EU blacklist ........Why?
They are already on the list.

[Vizsla]

In picture 2 are they waiting to unload the baggage or pick up the "black boxes" to sell in the market.........great security:D

[Doors to Automatic]

"there must have been something else amiss..."

Probably the age-old proven Indonesian landing technique involving Flap 5 and a VREF of circa 220kts :p

[PEI_3721]

Seeking to blame pilots, operators, or national cultures provides few if any lessons to be learnt from this accident.
There might be many similarities with recent incidents, particularly that in Kingston (AA 737) and an overrun in Canada.

Perhaps of significance is a wet runway; then consider both pilots being qualified as Captains.
Is the runway grooved, is it contaminated with rubber, is it well drained?

While we wait for more information, something to read:-
How to avoid an Overrun (http://www.flightsafety.org/files/managing_threat.ppt)
Runway Safety Initiative. (http://flightsafety.org/current-safety-initiatives/runway-safety-initiative-rsi)

[SMT Member]

PEI

That's all very true. Sadly history shows that accidents involving Indonesian carriers usually involves a rather large does of ineptitude - and I'm being very nice using that word.

As a previous poster mentioned, attempting to land a 737 with Flaps 5 whilst going 200+ knots over the fence is hardly the fault of anybody but the guys up the sharp end and the authority which indirectly sanctioned such an operation.

Put it this way: How many landing overruns have been found to be primarily caused by aeroplane malfunction? How many in Indonesia?

Jumping to conclusions based on very little hard fact is not what aviation is all about. In this case, as in many before it involving Indonesian carriers, I do believe we'll find that first impressions are pretty close to the truth - i.e the crew stuffed it due to circumstances which can ultimately be traced back to a poor safety culture. And that points the finger straight at the airline and the responsible regulatory authority.

With that in mind, you can hardly fault people here for swinging the axe this early.

[grizzled]

No one appears to be "blaming" anyone here yet (though, true to the grand traditions of pprune, that will of course happen). In my case, I have not -- and will not -- post anything that "blames" anyone. That's not how aviation safety, nor accident investigation (should) work.

Having said that, I have lived and worked in Indonesia (still do work there on occasion) and have a lot of direct experience with both Merpati and the Regulator. As anyone who knows Indonesia is aware, what can be said is this: The historic cultural involvement of corruption in government matters is still a significant impediment to achieving and maintaining an acceptable level of civil aviation safety in Indonesia.

To what degree that may be a contributing factor in this accident is another, but related, matter.

[iflytb20]

Just wondering.... keeping in mind the damage to the airframe, would the crew have been able to retract the spoilers after it had slid to a stop???

[Saint Jack]

I'm always amazed with responses in this forum when an accident like this occurs in Indonesia, as they do all too frequently, that seek to paint the whole Indonesian aviation scene with a black brush and cries of 'corruption'.

Statements like "...I had avoided flying on any Indonesian carrier at all cost long time ago..." are understandable but not helpful.

Anyone with a knowledge of Indonesian aviation will tell you that there are some very professional operators out there, both in the fixed-wing and helicopter business, that have excellent safety records. Some have reached an international standard and are permitted to fly into the EU although I understand only one does at present.

The majority of these operators have one thing in common - they have on-going contracts with major oil, gas and mining companies. It is these clients who are driving up the aviation standards, not the DGAC, and it is done by rigourous external audits and comprehensive contract requirements. These audits and contract requirements are not 'impossible standards', they are achievable but require a 'top-down' approach and commitment from the individual company - the rewards are substantial.

Grizzled, in the second paragraph of his post, sums it up nicely: "...Having said that, I have lived and worked in Indonesia (still do work there on occasion) and have a lot of direct experience with both Merpati and the Regulator. As anyone who knows Indonesia is aware, what can be said is this: The historic cultural involvement of corruption in government matters is still a significant impediment to achieving and maintaining an acceptable level of civil aviation safety in Indonesia...". I could't have have said it better.

[HKAforever]

@ Saint jack
I don't mean to belittle ALL Indon pilots, heck, there are a few with my present employer, but the abysmal safety record of Indonesian airlines speaks for itself. With a track record like that, can you really blame any of us for questioning Indonesian airlines in general? You said it yourself, "only one" Indonesia airline (Garuda) is permitted to fly to EU countries.

And don't you think it's quite sad (and disturbing) to have clients doing the safety auditing instead of the aviation authorities? Had those aviation authorities actually done their job instead of accepting all these under the table "extra pay", do you really think the safety record will still be so horrid? Bottom line, it dosen't matter whether there are decent indon pilots, I'm sure there are, but what good are they if they are stymied by an utterly corrupt system?

[vapilot2004]

Judging by the photos, lucky on two counts here: lack of serious injuries, save one, and no fire.

[ZEEBEE]

And don't you think it's quite sad (and disturbing) to have clients doing the safety auditing instead of the aviation authorities?

That's pretty much SOP these days HKA

Here in Oz, all of the major mining companies as well as others perform their own Audits on operators, be they local or overseas.

The minimum standards by the Aviation Authorities seem not to be adequate to stave off the litigation these guys face if their staff have been found to be assigned to a "questionable" operator.

The term questionable of course, only becomes obvious AFTER the accident.

[Saint Jack]

HKAforever: Don't worry, I fully understand your sentiments. Yes, there are some very good, conscientious pilots in Indonesia and I'm lucky to consider some of them among my friends. But I'm sure you'll agree that almost to a man they're often badly let down by their employers.

There was a time - not so long ago - that you rarely saw an Indonesian pilot working outside of Indonesia. Now that is not the case and many of them are seeking greener - and safer - pastures.

I think we need to separate scheduled airlines, by far the worst offenders - and other non-scheduled carriers. It is the latter catagory I had in mind with my earlier post.

Yes, it's very sad that clients are effectively doing the job of the DGAC. I've also seen the DGAC audit a non-scheduled carrier and it was a real eye-opener, done almost entirely from the QCM office and in a remarkably short space of time.

[HKAforever]

@Zeebee
True, but that dosen't change the fact that you should not have to rely on company auditing to improve an airline safety. What about the individual passengers who don't have the benefit and largese of a company to back them up and are stuck flying with the questionable scheduled airlines? Basic safety standards always have to come from the government regulatory authority, whatever that may be. And as this crash shows on top of the many other crashes in that country last year, Indonesian civil aviation standards still have a long way to go. This is sad since I do agree with Saint Jack, there are many good Indo pilots, but they are indeed let down by their employers and the system as a whole. Without changes from the entire civil aviation system as a whole, Indo pilots will continue to suffer.

[ZEEBEE]

HKAForever

I do agree with you, however the point I was trying to make was that external audits don't necessarily imply that there is a problem.

In the case of Indonesia, it's a bit different as the large mix of airlines and the tight competitive climate is a precarious place unless safety cultures are heavily embedded.

Then to add to the problems by having a steep CRM gradient in most of the aircraft (either real or perceived) and you have a serious risk level, particularly when faced with the terrain and climate that is Indonesia most of the time.

[GBV]

"only one" Indonesia airline (Garuda) is permitted to fly to EU countries.



Some have reached an international standard and are permitted to fly into the EU although I understand only one does at present.


Garuda , Mandala, Premiair and Airfast are the ones allowed to fly into the EU.


The majority of these operators have one thing in common - they have on-going contracts with major oil, gas and mining companies. It is these clients who are driving up the aviation standards, not the DGAC, and it is done by rigourous external audits and comprehensive contract requirements.


I have seen some of those external audits and they are not rigourous at all...just another way to make money...maybe the only reason why we don't see many non-scheduled operators crashing is simply because they don't fly as many hours as a scheduled Indonesian operator.

[PK-KAR]

2 instructors in front... and this happened... Ego-war in front? Get-there-itis?
Possible MDA bust and/or unstable approach.
Or someone forgot to do a "spoilers" call...

Geez... when will my fellow countrymen learn that ego & flying = disaster?

These audits and contract requirements are not 'impossible standards', they are achievable but require a 'top-down' approach and commitment from the individual company - the rewards are substantial.
One enjoyed an incident free year last year, and continues to work hard to get another year of it... and its yields are up as a result...
Another continue to work on further improving safety, and is enjoying bloody high yields thanks to pax from the oil and gas industry (and continue to pass their better than the DGCA audits).

BUT, both, are now being targetted by the regulators and competitors for possible paperwork violations... It seems that many people in the industry, just don't believe in safety and are out to punish those who enjoy the benefits of achieving good safety standards! Yes, safety is improving, but it has resulted in some here to put on their worst behaviour!

You said it yourself, "only one" Indonesia airline (Garuda) is permitted to fly to EU countries.
4 actually... (as GBV mentioned) they had to apply for the exemption, and recommended by the DGCA... Guess what, one of the two companies mentioned above have given up applying for the exemption because "it's not worth it" due to the recommendation "requirement" imposed by the DGCA.

have seen some of those external audits and they are not rigourous at all...just another way to make money...maybe the only reason why we don't see many non-scheduled operators crashing is simply because they don't fly as many hours as a scheduled Indonesian operator.
Well, some are strict as hell, some are just there for "slap another audit on the resume". Some airlines think that the strict ones can be bought, and those who tried, got a nasty bite... and ended up claiming to be the victim of a global conspiracy to take over the Indonesian airlines, and accuse those who passed the audits on merits to be 'siding with the enemy'.

May the good guys reap the benefits! For the idiots, may you reap what cr4p you sow!

This accident comes as no surprise in terms of the carrier and timing. Some have fallen back into complacency. Wake up! Safety is no autopilot!

But then, when I get a rant from someone at one of the manufacturers saying his visit to one airline's maintenance shop saw a ridiculous comment by one of the maintenance managers, who upon hearing one of the aircraft in the shop can't start its engines, he said (seriously), "have you tried jigging the choke setting?" Both me and my friend wonder, when will the bosses learn, that safety is part of your product, and not some expense/cost to minimize (and that hiring idiots doesn't save you money!)

[Saint Jack]

PK-KAR: Excellent post, sums up Indonesian aviation regulatory oversight nicely. To substantiate my point that the DGAC is well behind the safety curve, consider this: I know of a very well regarded and professionally run charter operator that applied to be upgraded from Catagory II to Catagory I. They should have passed with flying colours except that the DGAC paper-work (essentially a questionaire) had many questions that were applicable to multi-engine aircraft operations and this particular operator only flies single-engine machines. As a result, the operator could never have achieved a pass grade and is now condemned to be a 'Cat II company' when by all standards it should be Cat I. What to do..........

[PK-KAR]

it was a double captain flight (lack of crew)!
Affirm on that. had the source correcting the info... :}
We're all spectators since none of us were there :rolleyes:

Interesting shots.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs494.ash1/26992_116903994992335_100000182041616_279033_147577_n.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs514.snc3/26992_116905008325567_100000182041616_279039_4645724_n.jpg

[Doors to Automatic]

Interesting throttle position - although the Flaps do appear to be set correctly. Spoiler appears to be stowed although that may have been done after the crash.

[vapilot2004]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs494.ash1/26992_116903994992335_100000182041616_279033_147577_n.jpg

Now here's a picture you don't see everyday. (thankfully)

[Oakape]

The spoiler lever appears to be in the 'armed' position, just out of the down detent.

The thrust lever positions could indicate something was amiss, although the movement of the #1 thrust lever fully forward could have happened at any time.

I do find it interesting though that both reverse thrust levers are stowed, although it is possible that they could have been stowed after the aircraft stopped & before #1 thrust lever was moved full forward.

[GBV]

After seeing those pictures and also one showing some marks at the runway end, i start thinking that they tried to take-off again...

[framer]

I doubt he's a nosy tourist or an accident investigator. If he was, he probably wouldn't have blood on his shirt and be so disheveled. Maybe a pilot from the airfield who witnessed the crash and rushed to help? Or a dead-heading pilot, or the actual F/O. Either way he looked like he was about to tell the cameraman how it is .

[Arthur Boy]

He has 4 bars........are we sure he is not the operating skipper??

[Sqwak7700]

I count three bars. If the rumors that there were two skippers flying are right, then he must have been either deadheading or maybe as someone earlier pointed out, someone who saw the plane crash and rushed to help.

[subsonicsubic]

I see two Western pilots. Looks like Captain and 1st Officer.

I doubt these guys were flying but may have been involved in the rescue errorts by the look of things.

[Smellyapple]

just a nosey Caravan pilot :ugh:

[patrickal]

Given the last post showing the fact that this is now a tourist attraction, I doubt that the position of any of the cockpit controls will be of any use to the investigation. Earlier posts spoke of the positoin of both the spoiler and TR handles, but how do you know the controls have not been touched, given all of the access everyone has had to the aircraft?

[WSSS]

The captain is a local with more than 11,000 hours and has been named in this news article.

Plane Seriously Damaged After Accident: Merpati - The Jakarta Globe (http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/plane-seriously-damaged-after-accident-merpati/369172)

I don't think Merpati currently has any expat pilots, well not at the moment, anyway.

just a nosey Caravan pilot :ugh:

Oh I see, well if you're there on a tourist visa, then you're a nosy tourist, matey. :)

[fdr]

"20 Injured in Indonesia's First Air Crash of the Year"

20 Injured in Indonesia's First Air Crash of the Year - The Jakarta Globe (http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/national/20-injured-in-indonesias-first-air-crash-of-the-year/369165)

if it wasn't such a serious matter, it would be amusing..... actually still is kind of a funny headline.


in relation to external audits and the NAA's effectiveness, while the Indonesian program has some major problems, it is hardly Robinson Crusoe... in fact, some of the "leading authorities" have less than stellar track records. The external audit performance is variable in effectiveness, and is also subject to observer bias issues inherent in the manner that the industry has evolved. The primary requirement of effective audit is lost in the inking of the contract.... you get what you pay for.

[HKAforever]

@fdr

I agree Indonesia's NAA did have some improvements over the years, but the audits are very much hit or miss, depending very much on the specific airline or circumstances. The bigger issue is one of safety culture and corruption. This is not limited to aviation industry but how businesses is conducted in Indonesia as a whole. Rather then seeing the aviation business in isolaton, I think it's problems is very much a reflection of the bigger society and the governance problems Indonesians are generally confronted with. For many Indonesians, they cannot conduct businesses without making certain "payments" to various government departments to obtain permits or just to cut through the bureaucracy. It is in this sort of environment that the aviation industry exist in. And which is why introducing safety culture has been so difficult. Now in fairness, there has been some improvements, but as this crash demonstrate, it still has a very long way to go.