Falklands war and the Fairey Gannet

[Proplinerman]

A long time ago, not long after the Falklands war, I read a story in an aviation magazine that, apparently, in the run up to the conflict breaking out (ie, while the expeditionary force was en route to the Falklands), people from the MoD visited several aircraft museums in the UK which had Gannets and were seriously looking into the possibility of taking them out of the museums and putting them back into service, because the expeditionary force was so short of ASW capability.

I'm not speaking from a position of great knowledge re the Gannet-I think they had all been withdrawn by 1982, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. So can anyone corroborate this seemingly incredible story?

ScanImage8583 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://tinyurl.com/yb2hvfa)

[ZH875]

Probably false, as I don't think the UK had any platforms that could launch or recover the Gannet at sea.

[PLovett]

The RN carriers and "through deck cruisers" by that time all had the ski jump fitted so there was no room for a steam catapult required to get a Gannet into the air.

Anyway, it wasn't so much a shortage of ASW equipment as they had the necessary helicopters but a shortage of AEWR aircraft which the Gannet had fulfilled. It required the fleet to mount standing patrols of aircraft and picket lines of destroyers and frigates to give warning of incoming aircraft, an extremely costly business.

[HarmoniousDragmaster]

There is a grain of truth in the story, as there often is. It was not the Gannet airframes they were after but the AN/APS 20 AEW search radar. As has been mentioned there was a total lack of AEW equipment in the RN and, just as skips had been rifled for refuelling probes and bombing computers for the Vulcans, someone hit on the idea of retrieving these radars and fitting them to Sea Kings to provide AEW cover.

It never happened of course but the scheme did live on, using the very modern Thorn EMI Searchwater instead we got todays Sea King ASaC.7's from this germ of an idea.

[Groundloop]

It was not the Gannet airframes they were after but the AN/APS 20 AEW search radar.

I thought the AEW radar in Gannets had already been removed and used in the Shackelton AEW2.

[HarmoniousDragmaster]

Some, but not all. The AEW Shack's were all in service by 1972, the RN still had AEW Gannets until 1978 when Ark Royal was decomissioned.

[Vick Van Guard]

There is perhaps some truth in this story. Shortly before the Falklands War I was asked to view an AEW 3 Gannet, which was up for disposal via the MOD tendering system, on behalf of a prospective purchaser.

Although the aircraft hadn't flown for a few years and lacked the radar, it was in good condition. I seem to remember that it had an overhauled engine fitted prior to its final ferry flight.

The chaps bid was successful, but by this time the Falklands conflict had kicked off. The MOD informed him, shortly afterwards, though that the sale had been put on hold, whilst they reviewed their AEW capabilities. Nothing came of it of course and I think the aircraft was released in May 1982.

HMS Bulwark was still around at the time and I understand an inspection was made to see if she could be put back into service, but she was deemed too far gone. Presumably this is what the Gannets would have operated off if they had been returned to service.

[Agaricus bisporus]

There was a Gannet in the 705Sqn hangar at Culdrose in 83 just a year after the Falklands conflict. It was being used for noise research (by Dowty??) as there was talk at the time of using unducted contra-rotating fans on commercial aircraft. It flew several times.

[BEagle]

What became of the Gannet which was sitting in the 'Ark Royal' hangar at Leuchars in the mid-80s?

I remember the drone of the Gannet from my childhood days in Somerset - and the noise of the Wyverns before them!

[david parry]

Have seen 2 Gannets do free take offs from aircraftcarriers!!!!! one steaming into wind, and one at anchor. Not sure if they could get airborne, with a ramp set up, The one steaming into wind was the Victorious. The one at anchor was the Hermes pre ramp;)

[Vick Van Guard]

There was a Gannet in the 705Sqn hangar at Culdrose in 83 just a year after the Falklands conflict. It was being used for noise research (by Dowty??) as there was talk at the time of using unducted contra-rotating fans on commercial aircraft. It flew several times.

That would be XL500. It went to Chatham Dockyard after that, until being bought by Kennet Aviation. It is now at Exeter Airport under restoration to flying condition again. :D

[Lower Hangar]

The Hermes 'pre-ramp' free take off would have been the COD while we were at anchorage in Langkawi atoll - about Jan 1969 - I think I've got a black & white piccie of it - or am I just suffering a senior moment ??

[Been Accounting]

Around 1985-90 one of the big engine manufacturers (was it P&W?) acquired access to a Gannet to study the noise characteristics of contra-rotating props. This was to collect data for the UDF (unducted fan) engine.

The 'open rotor' engine is still a candidate for 2025 aircraft so perhaps the Gannet will prove useful again?

[Proplinerman]

Thanks for all the replies and I think we've got to the bottom of this story, though by all means let's keep the thread going.

[Agaricus bisporus]

BeenA

It sounds as if the Gannet I mentioned at Culdrose may well be the same one you are thinking of.

But as far as noise research is concerned the Gannet is probably a loser, it is hideously noisy and makes it's avian namesake look like a sweet, mild, melodious and harmonious songbird, which it clearly is not.

My memory of that Gannet was the earsplitting din and the stupendous speed that it hurtled about the airfield folding and unfolding it's wings as it went from one place to another.

Sure, some lucky LtCdr was getting his jollies way after his time and was showing all watching how it used to be done - man it was impressive!
How the FAA used to be!

But that Mamba howl!
(Not to mention the rally-driver taxying)

[david parry]

Yes the Free take off was at Lankawi 69, sure would like to see the Pic. The one that was launched from the Vic nearly ended in disaster, as she shifted to port on take off. With her wheel ending up over the 4.5 gun turret. But she had enough lift to clear it:D The skipper said " we wont be doing that again "

[aviate1138]

I used to cycle to White Waltham as a very young lad and watch Gannets take off and land.

ISTR a fence by the Maidenhead road being whacked/wrecked by a departing Gannet on one occasion? Or is my memory playing tricks?

White Waltham was very noisy back then with the Rotodyne test bed running, Rotodyne flying and the tiny Fairey Ultralight tipjet helicopter and Gannets!

The ultralight helicopter was always flown with vigour so I presume it was nice to fly!

[Steve Bond]

Me too - cycling to White Waltham that is. Even on Sunday mornings it was quite common for Gannets to be ground running outside the big hangar on the far side - the natives must have loved that. Anyone got any photos of Gannets there?

[Vick Van Guard]

Around 1985-90 one of the big engine manufacturers (was it P&W?) acquired access to a Gannet to study the noise characteristics of contra-rotating props. This was to collect data for the UDF (unducted fan) engine.


I think that was Hamilton Standard in the US. They used XL482 for a time.

Whatever happened to the one that was being flown back from the US and got stranded in Goose Bay?

[Union Jack]

Have seen 2 Gannets do free take offs from aircraftcarriers!!!!! one steaming into wind, and one at anchor. Not sure if they could get airborne, with a ramp set up, The one steaming into wind was the Victorious. The one at anchor was the Hermes pre ramp

I vividly recall doing one free take-off in the COD Gannet whilst VICTORIOUS was at anchor off Dar - and the reason I recall it so well was that there was a remarkable absence of wind over the deck and an even more remarkable presence of wake over the sea as we dipped off the deck and then climbed away!:eek:

Jack

[david parry]

Here is my sighting of the one, on the Victorious 66/67 commission :D:DThe last free take-off on the Vic, when we arrived back in the English channel in 67. The FDO LtCdr Robinson. Did a Free Takeoff with the last AEW Gannet to go ashore. He was lined up aft at the round down for an Axle deck launch. The Aircraft started to roll ok , But at about mid-ships she started to drift to port.
as she passed the point wher the angle deck met the Fwd part of the main deck it was obvious her port wheel was about to go over the deck edge. As the A/C past the Port side Fwd Twin 3.5 Turret the wheel was just about over the edge.
Luckly Robinson had gained enough Fwd speed to keep horizontal and get airborne on reaching the bow.
We had just started to breath again when Commander Air (Promoted to Captain some months before) Piped, "That is the last time we will attempt that". :oh:

[goofer]

Perhaps not very informative...but I well remember accompanying the then FO Plymouth (VAdml SAC Cassels) to Culdrose in 1981 when Roger Dimmock was Captain and seeing a Gannet with wings extended and engines running outside a remote hangar.

I recall the Admiral and the Captain musing on the lack of AEW cover for the fleet and the possible use the Gannet might be in extremis. I seem to remember that the conversation was revived in '82, perhaps because FO Plymouth's SOO was an ex-Gannet pilot.

That was around the time when CAMBRIDGE was presumed to be Devonport's point AAW cover, IIRC.

Anybody care to add detail (contradictory or otherwise!)...?

Goofer

[mr fish]

i saw a GANNET at mildenhall airshow in 1994 (i think), she did a couple of ground runs but did not take to the air.

i seem to recall an engine failure was the cause of the lack of flight, anyone know of the aircraft's fate??

[EGGP]

this is the Gannet that was on the display circuit; it says from 86-89. I can't recall another.

http://www.******************************/gannet/survivor.php?id=125

pprune doesn't seem to want to allow the website address to be shown. so the link wont work. It's from thunder and lightnings and the serial number is XL502.

[Proplinerman]

Try converting it to a TinyURL-it's worked for me here.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Sorry to resurrect this, but something needs clarifying
When the Falklands war kicked off, the Navy got the FAA Museum at Yeovilton to resurrect one of its AEW3 Gannets, using apprentices for labour. It was completed too late to take part, but when finshed was airworthy. Eventually it was sold for prop research, but I don't know if it was the one that went to Dowty-Rotol, or the one that went to Hamilton-Standard.
They had to do a major hunt for parts, and found a cache of unused Mambas which had been purchased for potential conversion into electrical generators during the 1970's miners strikes
Hamilton got XL482, while Dowty got XL500 - but I can't remember which was the one the museum rebuilt in a hurry
Was one fixed at Yeovilton and one at Culdrose???

Theres an interesting photo taken at Yeovilton Air Day at https://secure.flickr.com/photos/stumitc/6297384337/
which shows one Gannet (of a pair) plus a bunch of shrink-wrapped Mambas. Maybe thats the one??

............................................................ ....................................

edit- it looks like the one restored at Yeovilton for potential Falklands use was XL482

[Wyvernfan]

You lucky so-an-so Beagle :ugh:

[Thunderbird167]

The one behind the museum with the Mambas in 1982 was XG883 which went on loan to the Wales Aircraft Museum and then to the Museum of Berkshire Aviation at Woodley

The other Gannet with "GN" on the tail is XA508 which went to the Midland Aircraft Museum

[Newforest2]

Mambas available courtesy of this weeks Flight Internaional.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=202902&d=1328043917

[Lower Hangar]

Stumbled on this thread and had forgotten my contribution of almost a year ago. The free take off from Hermes at anchorage in Langkawi (Jan 1969) was in fact not the COD but an AEW3 from 849B flight - I came across the b/w piccie in a montage of Hermes 68-69 commission- I'll have a go at uploading my piccie - haven't tried that on PPrune for a looooong time

[Proplinerman]

And here is a photo of that Gannet at Woodley:

676 Woodley 27-2-08 Gannet | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://tinyurl.com/7eu4489)

[stepwilk]

Whatever happened to the one that was being flown back from the US and got stranded in Goose Bay?

See my Aviation History magazine article on that airplane here:

Fairey Gannet Revival (http://www.historynet.com/fairey-gannet-revival.htm)

[Zebra Child]

Does anybody know if there were ever any trials using JATO bottles on any variants of the Gannet ?

Thanks
ZC

[Heave Ho]

There is an element of truth to the first post, but not from an ASW aspect (ASW Gannets were withdrawn early 1960s and had been superseded by various rotary's by the early '80s).
The R.Navy was interested in the idea of being able to operate a couple of Gannet AEWs as airborne early warning for fast and low attackers against the fleet off the Falklands, some sources suggest that some of the losses, such as HMS Sheffield, wouldn't have happened had the type been available.
Four Gannets were kept in LTS at Culdrose during that period, that is long term storage with the option to make serviceable at short notice, two of the Gannets, AEW.3s XL482 and XL500 would have been fit for the job, the other two were T.5 trainers, XG888 and XT752. My understanding is that the AN/APS-20F radar equipment in the AEWs had indeed been removed at that point for use with 8 Sqn Shackletons.
I don't really know why the idea failed, but assume due to lack of any secure land base within range to operate from, and that the carriers were unable to support the type due to lack of catapult and arrester equipment and other mods.

The two Gannets pictured at Yeovilton, T.2 XA508 and T.5 XG883 weren't in any state to be made airworthy, and indeed not versions considered useful for operations.

Of the four Gannets in LTS, all had a happy and long life with three flying again, XL500 from Culdrose with Dowty Rotol, while XL482 was flown across to the States to be used by Hamilton Standard.
XL500, XG888, & XT752 moved from LTS at Culdrose to storage at Lee-on-Solent c'85, before being disposed of c'95.
Of course XT752 was recently airworthy in the States, and as with XL500 (which I'm involved with now), is currently being worked on to return to the air.
XG888 was kept in very good condition and was taken by sea to Australia for display at Nowra, seem to remember mention of this one being made airworthy again at some point, but came to nothing.

Another twist to AN/APS-20 story, I was contacted a while back by someone who was sent to St Mawgan to investigate the use of the radar out of Shackleton WL795 which was being considered for ground use on the Falklands.


ZC, The Gannet AS.1 & T.2 was certainly RATOG capable for which I would assume clearance trials were held, but I've never seen reference to them or service use, hopefully someone here will know more?

[Zebra Child]

Those AN/APS 20 radars have certainly stood the test of time ! They were even used by the US on tethered balloons in the 80's and 90's to try and track aircraft moving drugs in the Caribbean.

It would be really good if one could be found to put back in XL500 at some stage. After all it was the reason AEW3 existed. I have an original AN/APS20 Operating Manual if you would like a copy.

[10W]

What became of the Gannet which was sitting in the 'Ark Royal' hangar at Leuchars in the mid-80s?

It's XL502 which flew for a while on the airshow circuit, and is now an exhibit at the Yorkshire Air Museum, Elvington.

[Zebra Child]

Could somebody please help me with the correct aircraft markings for XL-500 when in service with 849 HQ flight in October 1963.

The nose number would have been 414 at that stage but how was the propeller boss marked for HQ flight ? (B flight = black and yellow / C Flight = black and white etc.)
I assume the aircraft would have had CU for Culdrose on the tail.

Thanks for any help you can offer. I am having a model made for my father who was a "Looker" (SOBS) with 849 at that time and flew in that aircraft many times with the C/O Butch Barnard as pilot. I hope he is still around when XL-500 gets back in the air again.

Thank you for any help you can offer.

P.S. Lt. Cdr. Andy Robinson is my sisters Godfather !

[Rosevidney1]

The Pilot's Notes for the Gannet ASR 1, T 2 & ASR 4 mention RATOG but other than where the cockpit switches are located give no details of its operation. RATOG is not mentioned in the notes for the AEW 3 or the T 5 so it seems the Admiralty didn't specify it for those marks.

[Zebra Child]

Thanks Rosevidney1 ... what do you think the chances are that a AEW3 could get off Hermes with a 12 degree ski jump and RATOG ??? Or would the angle be all wrong for the "bump" and also exceed maximum "High Alpha" ?
Just a theoretical question, looking back 30 years.

[cwatters]

Which museums would they have to raid today and what for?

[regulator2sq]

Ancient history now but may be of some interest to the users of this website. During the Falklands war I had the privilege of serving in a Portsmouth ship which CinCFleet recognised was nominally active, but too old and unreliable to be sent down south. So I did see the attempts to raise steam on the (rusty B) HMS Bulwark. Despite clouds of smoke from her funnel, anecdotally and with no hard evidence, I understand that attempts to fire the boilers and turn main engines were a failure. Had that succeded there might have been an undermanned and re-actvated third flat top on its way south before the end of May 82. Certainly she would have been capable of launching AEW Gannets (no ski ramp on the bow) had the normal winds prevailed and she could have got 20 knots water speed. Neither of these of course would have been available every (any) day. More problematic would have been recovery because of the lack of angled deck or arrestor wires. Would at best have been dicey, more realistically a death trap for the crews?
However my understanding is that all became academic because whilst the urgent review of scrapheap gannets and museum versions, the issue was not getting one airborne, it was the availability of the radar and spares for it. They could not be found nor could the fighter directors in the carriers see the gannet radar as the tv powered UHF downlinks from the radar had been scrapped. So the efforts to reactivate Bulwark were overtaken by the work on the container ships converted to ferry carriers and the re-activation of gannets was aborted. Lots of anecdote in this, but it seems to fit what others have written above and what I saw happening to Bulwark.

[Dr Jekyll]

Me too - cycling to White Waltham that is. Even on Sunday mornings it was quite common for Gannets to be ground running outside the big hangar on the far side - the natives must have loved that. Anyone got any photos of Gannets there?

Google Earth still shows what looks like a Gannet between two hangars at White Waltham.

[Jhieminga]

AFAIK that's still there. It's XA459, see here for more: https://tinyurl.com/ybo3zr8s

[possel]

In 1982 during the Falklands War I was at RAF St Mawgan and we had a call about the WL795 Shackleton AEW2 which had arrived on the station in Nov 81 before I arrived. Apparently it had not been Cat 5'd (my predessor should have asked for that) and so the powers thought it was serviceable. They wanted to fly it down to Stanley, take the nose off and use it on top of one of the hills as a ready made radar station!

Happily that never happened, but I put in a Request for Categorization pretty quick!