Arrows Collision

[BOAC]

Old thread closed, so,

Any news of the two pilots and how the team is planning to proceed?

[The B Word]

Both pilots OK. One with a few "bumps and bruises" from Martin Baker's best. I understand that an old soak is being "parachuted" in as the injured chap won't make a recovery in time for this season - rumour only...

[fantom]

Might be you BOAC...

[stackedup]

When the same thing happened in 1984? they flew the season with eight ac. It seemed they didn't have a spare frame. Have things now improved to the extent of spare ac ?

[The B Word]

Not very up-to-date (as XX233 is on the list) but it would appear that they have plenty...see link

Friends of the Red Arrows -- Reds Hawk Fleet (http://www.harrierlist.co.uk/FRA/fleet.htm)

[Steve the Pirate]

stackedup

I think they flew the whole '84 season as a nine ship.

STP

[BOAC]

fantom - steady on with the 'old' bit...................:)

They cannot be THAT desperate

[Green Flash]

As I understand it there are 20+(?) Hawks in the sheds at EGOS nominated as future Reds. So as long as they can get a new smoke tank bolted on and the stick switches wired up they should have the full 9. It might not be coloured red (initially) but they should have a full set of cabs? Getting an up-to-speed driver is another game, however. Good luck to all concerned and best wishes to everyone involved and they get fit and flying in short order.

[Megaton]

It takes a lot more work to modify a standard Hawk to Reds standard than sticking a pod on and wiring up the cockpit. When XX242 was modified it took BAeS many months to plan, manufacture and fit the pipework associated with the smoke system.

[The Oberon]

Other than the smoke and paint, are any other mods done, control throws etc ? just curious.

[Green Flash]

Ham

Thanks, I bow to your better knowledge and stand corrected. I'm a little surprised that there is not a Red11?

[champair79]

Modification to the engine to give a slightly faster response time. Not sure how much work that involves. Also, the paint job. Probably more but I don't know about them.

[Megaton]

Radios, fuel control unit (FCU), front cockpit GPS, more headroom in front cockpit (all right I made that one up :p) and I'm sure there are a few others.

[champair79]

There are (was) 13 hawks for the RAFAT. With one downed and the other crippled, it's now 11.

Red's 1-9 are the display pilots, Red 10 is Road Manager (commentator, coordinates with bos during display, flies hawk for photo ops for the main 9-ship etc.) and then Red 11 (don't ask me what his job is!). No back-up display pilots as they would never be able to replicate the high standards required in each position of the formation.

Hope that answers your question Green Flash. Wasn't sure if you were talking about the aircraft or the pilots :)

[Gainesy]

it took BAeS many months to plan, manufacture and fit the pipework associated with the smoke system.

Nah, waaay to easy.:)

What is different about the radio fit?

[scarecrow450]

As I understand it there are 20+(?) Hawks in the sheds at EGOS nominated as future Reds.

not quite 20 but at least 9 are going to be modded for RA's newer cabs

[Green Flash]

champ/crow

Thanks for the info. Yes, I meant cabs not pilots allthough I wasn't aware that Red11 actually existed! Presume 10 and 11, not being required to be display machines, can be sub'd by standard Hawks for the duration whilst they get another two ready?

[Megaton]

R11 is the Wg Cdr and not technically a bona fide member of the inner circle. Reds 10 and 11 were spare jets so were, ideally, fully modified although an unmodified XX156 was borrowed from Valley in times of need.

[champair79]

I guess so. The fact that Reds 10 and 11 fly the RA Hawk is simply making use of the squadrons available aircraft so flying a standard one shouldn't hurt too much. The aircraft all get rotated around between flying members anyway as mx checks and technical issues crop up. Specific aircraft are not assigned to each pilot although each pilot has his own preferred ship. There are still enough hawks in the fleet to be able to fly the 9-ship although I'm sure plans are being fast-tracked to bring 1 or 2 aircraft from Shawbury into RA service pronto.

Was it XX253 and 233 involved in the crash?

[The Oberon]

Red Hawk buzzing around Scampton 16.45 this afternoon. Replacement airtest perhaps ?
How would he get out to Cyprus, as a singleton, or what would accompany him ?

[Thelma Viaduct]

I saw the Red Arrows last year and was expecting the usual cheesy display.

I came away with a different impression, it was one of the best displays I've ever seen. Maybe not as low & loud as the blue angels, but definitely the best reds display I've witnessed.

I hope they can sort things out and get flying again.

[spekesoftly]

are any other mods done, Yep, the removal of fuse 13.

Oh hang on, no, that was on the Gnat! :p

[longer ron]

Quote:
it took BAeS many months to plan, manufacture and fit the pipework associated with the smoke system.
Nah, waaay to easy.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

What is different about the radio fit?

Have you done some Red Arrows smoke mod conversions then Gainsey ??

[cornish-stormrider]

you forgot the cupholder and installed rapid deploy set of golf bats:E

How is busted shoulder stick monkey doing??? (banter, I'm an ex sootie with a chip or two)
Hope he's up and about - he needs to be fixing a jet:},

Seriously, I do hope he'll be back to turning avtur into noise and overtime very very soon.

Still, look on the bright side - both crew survived, can't ask for more than that.

[CHINOOKER]

A Hawk left Scampton this morning and routed out via Dover/Koksijde....presume this is a replacement/extra spare for the Reds being delivered

[champair79]

I'm guessing so since they tend to take 11 Hawks to Cyprus but only took 10 to Crete. Also they need a spare aircraft anyway following the accident. Any news on what's happening with the team? It's all gone very quiet on the news front.

[FlapJackMuncher]

No flying atm.
Meet & greet next Monday at Aki mess.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I can't imagine there's any way you could draft in a replacement synchro leader; surely it's the most demanding position on the team after number 1? Given that some people have mentioned that Lingy's been advised to rest his shoulder for 6 weeks, I'd guess it'd take longer than that to train a replacement.

Total wild guessing here, but I'd say if anything was going to happen it'd be a delay to the start of the season while he recovers?

[Jackonicko]

Unless a recent ex-Synchro lead can be drafted back?

6 Sqn Ldr B D Murphy (2009)
6 Flt Lt P O’Grady (2008)
6 Sqn Ldr J H Turner (2007)
6 Flt Lt S D Stevens (2006)

[champair79]

Well last years synchro leader is this years team leader whicj throws a big spanner in the works! Any of the others listed above are probably too much out of practice (and busy!?) to warrant asking them back especially if Red 6 is only going to be out for 6 weeks. Granted he will be behind on training but this can be caught up with OSP's at Scampton. They train to fly 8-ship formations anyway incase of illnesses, bereavements or injury so the first part of the season will probably just be flown with the 8, with Red 7 doing some solo passes. All IMHO of course and we can all speculate until we hear something.

[hurn]

Wouldn't the Board of Inquiry (or whatever it's called) have to come to a conclusion about the accident before synchro can resume training?

[H Peacock]

I can't imagine there's any way you could draft in a replacement synchro leader; surely it's the most demanding position on the team after number 1? Given that some people have mentioned that Lingy's been advised to rest his shoulder for 6 weeks, I'd guess it'd take longer than that to train a replacement.

Total wild guessing here, but I'd say if anything was going to happen it'd be a delay to the start of the season while he recovers?

Think you'll find a new Red 6 is being worked up ready to join the team as we speak. All round good effort, but I hope Lingy gets back in the air where he clearly belongs ASAP! :D

[pma 32dd]

Just out of interest from a purely piloting technique - how do they plan to miss during the synchro cross (chopped at Valley here!)?

TVM

[Pure Pursuit]

6 flies a predictable path with 7 being responsible for remaining clear.


Not all all suggesting that Monty was to blame, that is just the normal state of play & I have no idea what went wrong on the day. They both walked away so I'm sure they've thrashed it out & will overcome the issue.

[DBTW]

Regardless of BoI findings, actual blame or cause, there was a time where a Red Arrow member could not return to the team if they were involved in an accident. Has this policy changed?

In the past, accidents led to smaller display teams for the rest of the season. Wasn't the Red Arrow display season even cancelled back in the late 80's after a string of unfortunate incidents?

Only asking...:confused:

[pma 32dd]

PP thank you

[robins1]

On a slightly more serious note, i watched the video of the collision and it appears to me that the pilot of the crashed aircraft did a remarkable job of ejecting before it hit the ground. I would have time to go oh sh**, before the earth came up to meet me!! This got me thinking, does time slow down for fast jet pilots when flying in close formation? Has any research been done into whether the brain physically changes ie: neuro-, transmitters reacting faster etc, be interesting to see brain scans to compare with airline pilots say on a long haul flight. Bit too difficult to get the scanners into a Hawk i guess but an interesting concept.

[Redcarpet]

On the large amount of long haul flying I've done, my brain activity could be measured using the Glasgow Coma Scale. ;)

[FFP]

Hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror ;)

[champair79]

Update scheduled for tomorrow (Wednesday 14th April). Stay tuned to official website.

[neildo]

Red 6 & Synchro Leader - Flight Lieutenant Paul ‘Pablo’ O’Grady
Age – 33

Pablo flew the Typhoon before joining the Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team.

Education – He attended St. Aidan’s High School in Harrogate, North Yorkshire, and was a member of 58 (Harrogate) Squadron Air Training Corps. After being awarded a Royal Air Force Sixth Form Scholarship he went onto complete his A – Levels.
Career – Joined the Royal Air Force in 1996. After completing flying training Pablo was posted to Royal Air Force Linton-on-Ouse as a qualified flying instructor where he taught students on the Tucano aircraft.
Following completion of Tactical Weapons Training, he was selected to fly the Jaguar GR3A; one of the Royal Air Force’s single-seat ground attack and reconnaissance aircraft.
In 2006 Pablo joined the Red Arrows, Flying as Synchro Leader for his last year in 2008. Upon completion of his three year tour with the Red Arrows, Pablo was posted to XI Squadron which is equipped with the RAF’s newest, most technologically advanced multi-role jet, the Typhoon.
Due to Pablo’s exceptional skills and performance during his time on the Team he has been requested to re-join for 2010, to replace the injured Flight Lieutenant Mike Ling, and becomes the first Typhoon pilot on the Red Arrows.
Background – Pablo first discovered a passion for flying in the Air Training Corps. In his spare time Pablo enjoys windsurfing, mountain biking and skiing. Pablo currently lives in Stamford with his wife Claire and dog Henry.

From their facebook...

[maliyahsdad2]

Sad to hear the Reds will not be at the Southend Air Festival this year and will not be displaying until 16th june.
Hope the guys are recovering well.

[hurn]

Glad to hear the Reds will still be flying a nine ship this year, albeit with a slightly delayed start to the season. :D

[Evanelpus]

Sad to hear the Reds will not be at the Southend Air Festival this year and will not be displaying until 16th june.

Another dreary Southend Airshow in prospect then. Won't bother this year, the last few have either been washouts weatherwise or washouts due to inferior display items.

[sitigeltfel]

The Patrouille de France lost one their aircraft yesterday in an accident close to the Plan de Dieu airfield. The pilot ejected successfully and suffered minor injuries and burns. Photos in the local press show him being treated by firefighters and medics at the edge of the crash fireball.

Vaucluse : un avion de la Patrouille de France s'est crashé | La Provence (http://www.laprovence.com/article/region/vaucluse-un-avion-de-la-patrouille-de-france-sest-crashe)

[dropintheoggin]

So Reds, Brazilians and now PAF. They say they come in 3's. Sorry the Brazilian chap didn't make it out. RIP

[f4aviation]

Don't forget the Indians:

Indian Navy airshow crash kills two: key.Aero, Airshows (http://www.key.aero/view_news.asp?ID=1689&thisSection=airshow)

Or the Kiwis:

Red Checkers grounded: key.Aero, Airshows (http://www.key.aero/view_news.asp?ID=1679&thisSection=airshow)

[ehwatezedoing]

Interesting note in the French article.
They are mentioning the fact that the Patrouille de France have a spare pilot able to full fit any position but the leader's one.

How accurate this is, I don't know.

[BOAC]

Zut alors! Zat will be 'Jaques of all trades'.

I suspect they may have a 'reserve' who could be trained up to fly in one of several positions, but I very much doubt he/she could 'slot' straight in. The differences between left side(un-natural) and right side(yeah!) and the various different tweaks and fudges each slot requires would take several weeks to attain.

[27mm]

Nom, d'un chien! It is said that the Patrouille not only has a Mme in the team, but that she is also the leader - est c'est vrai?

[Molemot]

Oui, vous avez raison..

Après une année particulièrement riche en événement (tournée internationale, Salon de Dubaï,…), la PAF prépare d’ores et déjà sa série pour 2010. C’est aux ordres du leader, le commandant Virginie Guyot, première femme pilote de chasse dans le monde à prendre ce poste au sein d’une patrouille acrobatique, que la PAF sera cette année encore ambassadrice de l’armée de l’air française.
Voici donc le nouveau visage de la Patrouille de France, version 2010.
Athos 1 – Leader - Commandant Virginie Guyot
Athos 2 – Intérieur droit - Lieutenant Jean-Noël Guy
Athos 3 – Intérieur gauche - Capitaine Antoine Hauser
Athos 4 – Charognard - Capitaine Cédric Tranchon
Athos 5 – Extérieur gauche - Capitaine Georges-Eric Castaing
Athos 6 – Extérieur droit - Capitaine Paco Wallaert
Athos 7 – Leader solo - Capitaine Sylvain Pillet
Athos 8 – Second solo - Capitaine Sylvain Courtot
Athos 9 – Remplaçant - Capitaine Ludovic Bourgeon
La Patrouille de France, ambassadrice des Ailes françaises, symbole du savoir-faire aéronautique de notre pays, effectue chaque année une cinquantaine de meetings en France et à l’étranger.

[27mm]

Merci, mon brave!

[sitigeltfel]

Interesting note in the French article.
They are mentioning the fact that the Patrouille de France have a spare pilot able to full fit any position but the leader's one.

How accurate this is, I don't know.They also have twelve aircraft to chose from for the eight they require.

[spekesoftly]

They also have twelve aircraft to chose from for the eight they require.Following the loss reported in your post #45, would that be eleven aircraft to chose from? ;)

[Baron rouge]

The injured pilot was N°2 in the syncro Pair

The Patrouille de France trained again today putting a superb display in the skies of Salon de Provence, just over the airfield and the golf course were I was training with a white ball.

The spare pilot is generally a pilot in his fourth year with the Patrouille de France and has flown at least two years as one of the syncro pair.
So yes he can fly any position and he trains as much as the other eight pilots.

The leader Virginie Guyot was n°4 last season, and deputy leader of the Patrouille de France.

Unlike the rest of the alpha jets usualy used for training at the same point than the Hawk in the RAF, the PAF alpha Jets are equiped with the Martin baker MK 10 ejection seat which probably saved the pilot from that very low level ejection.
QFI's and student must contend with MK 4 !

[vecvechookattack]

Another dreary Southend Airshow in prospect

Having had vast experience of displaying at Southend I would agree with you that it is the dreariest of dreariness.

However, Those Essex girls make up for the lack of aircraft entertainment !!!!

Southend is the Bredbury Hall of the 21st century

[TEEEJ]

A message from Flight Lieutenant Ling

RAF Red Arrows - The Red Arrows Team News (http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/teamnews/index.cfm?storyid=06E3A7DB-5056-A318-A8E40083FF1A5A74)

TJ

[airsound]

The leader Virginie Guyot was n°4 last season, and deputy leader of the Patrouille de France.


That's the way they usually do it in the Patrouille. The #4 is also known as 'charognard' (=vulture), because she/he sits on the shoulder of the leader and takes over when she/he departs.

Virginie was a recce pilot on Mirage F1CR (2/33 'Savoie' Sqn at Reims) before joining the Patrouille

airsound

[AllTrimDoubt]

...the Bredbury Hall ...


Ah! Memories!!!!

[BOAC]

Well, I raise 'mon chapeau' to the 'spare' :ok:

[BOAC]

will not be displaying until 16th june. - any news on how it is going?

[Double Zero]

It might take Wart On to take months to fit a smoke-pod to a Hawk, but at their birthplace Dunsfold, it was rather less.

I should know, as my father Stan was in charge of fitting the originals !

I would think smoke pods, not Hawks, are the rarity.

Incidentally, Reds' Hawks have a modified throttle for fine movement adjustments, I've flown in such an aircraft with an ex-Reds pilot, in very close formation with another Hawk.

Later, in my day, we were asked by an African Hawk customer if it would be OK to pipe 'Genklene' - Tricoethanol, now banned - into the jetpipe.

There ensued the fastest international phone calls in history, as this stuff when turned into pretty white smoke is Phosgene gas !

We had another request for green smoke, which led to a static Hawk trying various dyes in the basically diesel smoke pod.

Our best result was met by a seriously ballistic phone call to Dunsfold's airfield manager; it was a calm day and we'd managed to dye this woman's hanging washing bright green !

So success can be measured by various scales...

DZ

[Megaton]

Don't think the throttle was modified - was it not the Fuel Control Unit (FCU)?

Also, I believe the reason the smoke mod took so long was that each aircraft is different internally and so the mod needed accurate drawings and bespoke manufacture.

[Double Zero]

Spoken like a true Northener...

No, XX154 ( the first ) had a few minor differences, otherwise believe it or not the aircaft were built on jigs, to drawings, no Whippets involved...

Fitting any such kit on an aircraft is going to involve some curves etc, but any fitter worth his or her salt could handle that.

You seem to be expecting an Ikea ' Red Arrows installation pack ' !

[longer ron]

I did the 2 smoke conversions at Dunsfold in the mid 80's.
Cutting the 3 large holes in frame 34 took a little moral courage because the modified tailcones did not arrive until just before we delivered the a/c.
There were no jigs etc at dunsfold as istr that the original smoke conversions were done at Bitteswell,so it was a case of careful measurement and home made tooling !
Luckily the tailcones lined up very well :ok:
The conversion is relatively straight forward,but as others have alluded to - some of the components are 'long lead' items and do take a while to manufacture.
I was not allowed to attend the engine runs on the 1st a/c,and a large cloud of smoke was followed by a van racing over to me to ask how to switch the smoke 'off' :)
I laughed and said ''doesnt matter - it'll run out in a few seconds'' LOL

[longer ron]

Don't think the throttle was modified - was it not the Fuel Control Unit (FCU)?Yes i think it was the FCU and possibly also the ECA modded.

Also, I believe the reason the smoke mod took so long was that each aircraft is different internally and so the mod needed accurate drawings and bespoke manufacture. As D Zero has already confirmed,the Hawks were jig built and the main production batch had very good ICY,so any hawk post XX162 (8th a/c ?)has good interchangeability (ICY)

Edit actually the component icy on the early Hawks is very good,but there are a few little differences externally.XX154 still has quite a few 'differences' LOL

[longer ron]

Yes you do know me A....
I was referring specifically to drilling jigs etc for the smoke conversion,not for hawk manufacture :)

[XV410]

FCU to a different mod standard, ECA standard Hawk item.

[longer ron]

Thanks XV...I had thought that perhaps the Reds might have managed to get hold of the mythical modded ECA to eliminate thrust pulsing ?:)
Well it may not be mythical but I cannot remember ever seeing one !!

rgds B

[XV410]

Mythical ECA did exist, but was turned down because of cost. How many ECAs have been replaced, Aircraft come back early because of thrust pulsing over the years?????

[BOAC]

I'll take that as a no, then:ugh:

[longer ron]

Mythical ECA did exist, but was turned down because of cost. How many ECAs have been replaced, Aircraft come back early because of thrust pulsing over the years?????

The Lord only knows...its just about coming into that time of year again :rolleyes:

BOAC...we can all learn interesting info on here,I honestly did not know the eca mod had been turned down completely !!doesnt surprise me!!MOD never seemed to want to spend any money on Hawks !
I will not mention hydraulic rig connections :rolleyes:

[champair79]

Reds granted PDA yesterday a week early! They will be able to display at the Cosford Air Show this weekend. Well done team :ok:

[Wander00]

To the Team - Bonne chance - have a good season

[PPRuNe Pop]

Unless you have seen this already this link will tell you much.

RAF Red Arrows - Display Pilots (http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/behindthescenes/displaypilots.cfm)

It seems that Mike Ling is still injured and his place is taken by Paul O'Grady in the No 6 slot.

PPP

[FlapJackMuncher]

Hate to think what Paul O'Grady's nickname might be.
Is it Lily?

[BOAC]

Thanks all. Well done the lads (and lassies....)

[STANDTO]

Ramsey Sprint here at TT 2010 wasn't quite the same without the team. There was a contingency of a couple of Gnats, apparently, but the wx was so poor this morning they couldn't get here.

Maybe next year, if I haven't managed to organise a round of Red Bull Air Racing in the bay :ok: