Part 66 licensing for private aircraft owners?

[Ultranomad]

I am thinking of getting a Part 66 license - mostly for the purpose of servicing an aircraft of my own, possibly more than that, but not as someone else's employee. The aircraft in question will be operated under AOC, and the idea is to be able to do not only routine maintenance but also e.g. customization of avionics. Sorry, I'm not yet up to spec in licensing issues - is it a B2 license that will allow me to do that and sign it out to service?
Is it at all feasible without X years of employment at a maintenance organisation? I doubt I can get the right kind of documents to certify the equivalence of skills - can I just pass the necessary exams, or should I also undergo practical training at a licensed facility regardless of the actual skill level?

[spannersatcx]

Gaining a B1 or B2 from scratch as you say requires a minimum of 5 years experience to be able to use that licence.

Go to the CAA UK website and have a look at the ELGD documents, all is in there.

[flame_bringer]

In order to get a b1 or b2 license , you have to complete the basic training in a part 147 approved training school , then do 2 years of practical training and get an approrpiately licensed part 66 B2 or b1 engineer to sign the tasks that you had done for you in your cap 741 logbook ,the duration will vary subject to coverage of the cap 741 requirments.
in order to get a dispensation from the basic training and go straight for the exams you have to have 5 years of working experience in a part 145 approved maintainance organization and have a brochure that proves such a fact with signatures of appropriatly part 66 approved engineers.

So , what i would do in your situation is , go through the basic training and then get involved in my own aircraft maintainance and get the engineer whom i helped in maintaining my own aircraft to sign my cap 741 logbook for me , and then once i cover all the requirments of the 741 , submit my papers to the competent authority and hope myself all the best :P in getting my papers accepted and obtaining my B2 license.


I hope this helps

[flame_bringer]

Oh and i forgot to mention this also, if you want to maintain your own aircraft you have to go through the relevent type course for your own aircraft and be typed in it and that should be done in a part 147 approved training school or an approved 145 organization , work on it for six months atleast to be elligible to sign a CRS , fill in paper work pertinent to its maintainance ...etc.

[Ultranomad]

flame_bringer, am I right in interpreting your words that I can just take a distance course in aircraft maintenance, and then arrange with some maintenance facility that I will bring my aircraft over and service it myself under the observation of their engineer who will sign it off, and then two years later I can apply for a B license (I mean, without actually doing maintenance work 5 days a week for two years)?

[Alber Ratman]

You have to show the two years of maintenance experience minimum. It can be obtained in a time period of 7 years I believe, but 6 months of it must be cocurrent working in Maintenance.. As a job..:eek:

[flame_bringer]

anton_k
No its not feasible that you do it on self studies if you dont have 5 years experience in a 145 approved organization, you have to attend all the courses in your situation, it cant be done on self studies unless you have 5 years experience in a 145 approved organization , then you're exempt from attending the courses and you can do it on self-studies and go for the exams .
But i know one thing certainly ,you have to pass all the part 66 subjects which start from module 1 which is maths and ends at module 14 which is engine indication systems and propulsion.
Then cover all the cap 741 practical training requirments then put all your papers together and submit them alongside a form 19 to any member state of EASA and thats it they'll assess you and issue you a licnese if yoou meet all the requirments, and Alber ratman , no it doesnt have to be as a job , you can assist in the tasks with any engineers as a trainee and still can have it signed.
The reason why i know something about this matter is because im going through this process currently, i finished all my part 66 modules and now doing my on job training as an apprentice with diffrent maitainance organizations.

[CONSPICUITY]

Hi
This is a bit of a minefield in order to maintain your own aircraft you will need a B1 and B2 licence to cover every aspect of its maintenance, Depending on the aircraft type and weight and its useage will depend on whether it is maintained by a Part 145 approved company where you will then have to obtain a type rating for that aircraft and the approved company will then issue you approvals to sign for any maintenance carried out this I cant see happening as you will not be employed by them.You could set up you own 145 company with all the costs and CAA approval required.If the aircraft is an Annex 2 aircraft you will still need a BCAR licence with type ratings that cover the aircraft systems ie Airframe/engines,electrics,radio comm and nav,inst,compases all will require an oral with the Caa in order to get the ratings .I hope this helps I am sure more knowledgeable people will clarify things better than I can perhaps a meeting with your local Caa surveyor will help.

[Rigga]

(1) I am thinking of getting a Part 66 license - mostly for the purpose of servicing an aircraft of my own,

- Some "Pilot maintenance" is already allowed for Light Aircraft - however, you don't state what sort of aircraft you have or are thinking of getting. This will greatly affect your aspirations

(2) ...possibly more than that, but not as someone else's employee. The aircraft in question will be operated under AOC, and the idea is to be able to do not only routine maintenance

- If your aircraft is used under an AOC work MUST be carried out by a Part 145 MRO / Employee - That is a condition of your AOC

(3) ...but also e.g. customization of avionics.

- The design of new modifications or equipment MUST be backed up by a Part 21 Design Organisation or OEM - this is NOT a maintenance task.

[Ultranomad]

Some "Pilot maintenance" is already allowed for Light Aircraft - however, you don't state what sort of aircraft you have or are thinking of getting.
Piston, under 5700 kg.

If your aircraft is used under an AOC work MUST be carried out by a Part 145 MRO / Employee
Oops. I guess getting a Part 145 approval is too much of an undertaking. Or is it?

The design of new modifications or equipment MUST be backed up by a Part 21 Design Organisation or OEM - this is NOT a maintenance task.
I am not talking of design or equipment modification, merely installing e.g. additional navigation equipment, or replacing existing types with newer equivalents. Does this fall under maintenance or not?

[flame_bringer]

Its still considered a modification and will have to be approved by the type certificate holder or the competent authority itself.
as to what rigga pointed out regarding the commander license, i reckon this is the most ideal maintainnance license for you in your case , you would still be able to conduct minor maitainance and certain inspections with it.

[flame_bringer]

What i would do in your situation is, i would have it under an AOC and get a CAMO for the continuing airworthiness and maintainance programes , and take care of the maintainance on my own using my B2 license ,or have my own commander license to do the minor maintaince and get a 145 organization to take care of the major maintainance tasks , if you can afford it you can establish your own part 145 organization but its not worth it if its for one aircraft only .

[Rigga]

Like Flame Bringer says;

As an AOC holder it would make sense to manage your own aircraft as a Part M Continued Airworthiness Management Organisation (CAMO)

Many AOC holders also have integral Part 145 LINE maintenance organisations and then contract out to Base Maintenance. This is where (as a Pt 66 Licenced B1 or B2 Technician in a Pt 145 Line Organisation) you could maintain your own aircraft.

As earlier explained, you have to do quite some homework and put in the practical work to get a Licence - it's not an academic qualification and a lot of practical work is required - man-hours and days, of classroom teaching and practice experience, per module, are a mandated requirement in EASA Part 66 (explained in the CAA's ELGD)

If you are working, it can take years to do the modules - there's more to being just a mechanic than you can imagine.

Finally, as an operator/pilot, it may well do you a favour to learn what we maintenance guys do and then you might understand why it is that we can't always do as the operator wants.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
Rigga

[Ultranomad]

Rigga and flame_bringer, thanks for you valuable input. I do have some hands-on experience with aircraft maintenance, including e.g. reassembly of a Cessna 152 shipped from overseas in a container - the problem is that it's a lot less than required and hardly possible to prove to authority's satisfaction - but at least I do understand why things are done a certain way and not otherwise. My reason to get a license was not so much to save on costs (although it's certainly an important factor) but to have a possibility to operate outside EU for periods well beyond the usual inspection interval. Could you point me in the direction of the document detailing the scope of commander license to do maintenance while away from base?

[flame_bringer]

M-005 Limited Pilot owner maintenance (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/27615291/M-005-Limited-Pilot-owner-maintenance)
Have a look at this for the time being
I'll update you with further info tonight cuz i dont know much as to how to obtain the commander license so i'll ask around for you.

[Alber Ratman]

Flame bringer.. As an apprentice, are you being paid? That is a job.:confused:

If you are not, then who is paying for you to live? You are true that it doesn't say as a job, but most people can't afford to be on OJT for two years etc.. Your circumstance must be different from the normal European. Is Daddy paying??:E

[flame_bringer]

lol
Well as per his above posts i reckon that he's fine and he can afford it because he pointed out already that he doesnt want to be working he merely wanted to obtain the license.

[Alber Ratman]

If he can afford to own his own plane.. He can afford it. Can he afford the maintenance??:eek:

[Ultranomad]

In my case, I am happily self-employed, and would rather avoid regular employment unless really necessary. Up until now, aviation has been my hobby, but is getting gradually integrated into my work, so I am trying to do it in the most systemic way, time and resources permitting. Unfortunately, neither of the two is infinite.

[flame_bringer]

Anton_K
Ok i finally managed to get a hold of a word file that states full details of the pilot-owner maintainance license and the requirments of it .
PM me your email and i'll email it to you

[flame_bringer]

Under the O-M Category, Aircraft Pilot/Owners are Eligible To:

· maintain an airplane
· refurbish all or part of an airplane
· overhaul all or part of an airplane
· install certified and uncertified parts
· install or replace any instruments or avionics
· modify an airplane
· rebuild an airplane that is out of service
· sign the maintenance release.

I guess it satisfies all your needs :ok:

[Rigga]

PLEASE NOTE THE REFERENCES to EASA Part M and 145

My italics

AMC M.A.803 Pilot-owner authorisation
1. The pilot–owner should hold a valid pilot license issued or validated by a member state for the aircraft type being maintained.

2. Privately operated means the aircraft is not operated pursuant to M.A.201 (h) and (i).

3. A pilot owner should only issue a certificate of release to service for maintenance performed by the pilot owner and after demonstrating the competence to carry out such maintenance tasks.



GM 145.A.30(j)(4) Personnel requirements (Flight crew)
1. For the holder of an ATPL or CPL issued in accordance with JAR FCL 1 or
JAR FCL 2 the theoretical knowledge and examination subjects are detailed in
appendix 1 to JAR FCL 1.470 and appendix 1 to JAR FCL 2.470 and include the
following subjects:
− Air law
− Airframe/systems/powerplant
− Instruments/electronics
− Mass and balance
− Performance
− Flight planning and monitoring
− Human performance and limitations
− Meteorology
− General navigation
− Radio Navigation
− Operational Procedures
− Principles of Flight
− VFR Communications
− IFR Communications
2. For the holder of an JAR FCL F/EL, JAR FCL 4 subpart D gives details on the
theoretical and practical knowledge and skill requirements from which appendix 1 to JAR FCL 4.160 Technical Training Course (TTC) details the following subjects:
(See JAR-FCL 4.160(b)(1))
Familiarisation with basic maintenance procedures, to give additional technical
background knowledge, especially with respect to the implication of systems
malfunctions, and to train the applicant in maintenance related to the Minimum Equipment List (MEL).
The theoretical knowledge instruction consists of 100 hours and includes the
following elements:
1. Airframe and systems
2. Electrics
3. Powerplant and emergency equipement
4. Flight instruments and automatic flight control systems Practical skills training provided by an organisation approved under Part-145 is given which includes 35 days practical experience in the following subjects:
− Fuselage and flight controls
− Engines
− Instruments
− Landing gear and brakes
− Cabin/cockpit/emergency equipment
− Ground handling and servicing
− Certificate of completion
Following successful completion of the technical training, the training organisation carrying out the theoretical knowledge instruction and/or the practical skill training, should provide the applicant with a certificate of satisfactory completion of the course, or part thereof.

[Bus429]

A few points to summarise those put by Rigga and others:

AOC must have a CAMO
CAMO can sub-contract certain tasks
CAMO remains responsible for ensuring all tasks are accomplished; its Quality system is responsible
Sub-contract can go to anyone: AOC CAMO, standalone CAMO, Part 145 AMO or guys sitting on his own in his garage; no approval needed to be a sub-contracted organisation for reason above
AOC aircraft of any mass must be maintained under Part 145
Pilot issued with authorisation - not approval - by the Part 145 AMO responsible for maintenance to do some maintenance (inc repetitive AD inspection where AD states may be accomplished by a pilot) for which they are task trained. No different from licensed maintenance staff in this respect and must follow and quote approved data. This is not pilot-owner maintenance which applies only < 2730 MTOM non-commercial
All mods approved under Part 21

[Rigga]

FB & Bus,

It appears that Anton knows very little about flying other than piloting.

I think we've given him enough things to think about, before he gets to working on aircraft.