PUMA out of Gas? [Archive]

Hummingfrog

29th Mar 2010, 17:13

vecvechookattack

Wasn't it a Navy Sea Harrier that landed on a container ship after running short of fuel! I also know of a RN Wessex which had and engine flameout as it crossed the fence in NI followed by the other just after it touched down:eek:

This crew - while a little red faced landed safely and perhaps their only problem was not being able to tell someone where they were and what they were doing.

HF

Turkeyslapper

29th Mar 2010, 17:26

A little red faced yes, however no harm done :ok:......could have been more than that if they had decided to push on!

minigundiplomat

29th Mar 2010, 18:01

Vec,

At least you never run out of bolleaux to spout.

Shackman

29th Mar 2010, 18:06

And then there was the Sea King with the USL, who pushed it just a bit too far, with more tragic consequences.

Tourist

29th Mar 2010, 18:08

I was assuming, given the number of RN aircraft that have run out of gas, that vec was being ironic/humerous, but since it's him, you are probably right that he's just being an arse.

alfaman100

29th Mar 2010, 18:39

RAF left red-faced after mounting search for lost helicopter which ran out of fuel - The Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2010/03/29/raf-left-red-faced-after-mounting-search-for-lost-helicopter-which-ran-out-of-fuel-86908-22146132/)

LogieBear

29th Mar 2010, 18:58

A Super Puma? From personal experience,I do not believe anything reported in that newspaper.Not even the date at the top.

Norfolk Inchance

29th Mar 2010, 19:34

I notice the Daily Record article states that the crew remained with the aircraft overnight. I didn't realise that there is now a Wester Ross Hilton Hotel, and it allows military aircraft to stay overnight.
27 minutes worth of fuel? That will be the tanks half full in Softy then?

CrabInCab

29th Mar 2010, 19:39

Makes a change, it's normally the Chinnies that run out of fuel!

:}

Glad they made they right decision to land on - good on them.

:ok:

Faithless

29th Mar 2010, 19:47

Fuel gauge reads near empty :uhoh:...Put big piece of metal on terra firma before gravity takes affect and noisy thing plus big spinny thing goes quiet and stops.:sad:

people inside metal object step out to see another day!

Sounds like a happy ending to me! :ok:

Norfolk Inchance

29th Mar 2010, 20:06

Was this from ALD or Benson? Oh God not some silent and deadly task?

taxydual

29th Mar 2010, 20:12

Bodmin Moor, early '70's, Whirlwind on SAR from Chivenor. Weather dog, as usual. "Hmm" says Bob Jones "Getting a bit low on the go-juice". "Ah" says Kip the crewman "Just passed a garage". "OK" says Bob "We'll land on and see if they have Pink Paraffin". They do. Hover taxy in to the pump and 'Bob's your Uncle'.

Bit smoky, but it does the trick.

Buggers wouldn't pass on the Green Shield Stamps though.

7SFK

29th Mar 2010, 20:54

Sounds more like 'Puma not out of Gas?'

If my understanding of Puma fuel minima are still correct, the crew made the correct decision by landing as they approached their fuel minima, having worked out that it was unlikely that they could make their destination, as they are trained to do. Had they not, and pressed on, the circumstances may have been markedly different, and may have justified the over-reaction from the emergency services and the Daily Record. This aspect is strange if ATC had been informed that the aircraft was landing - it was neither overdue, nor in difficulty - helicopters do that sort of thing.

Well done the crew (and for staying with the aircraft) - 'they learned about flying from that', as Wg Cdr Spry used to say!

Good to see the Daily Record had their aviation analyst on the case!

vecvechookattack

29th Mar 2010, 21:07

I was assuming, given the number of RN aircraft that have run out of gas, that vec was being ironic/humerous

Exactly. I was fishing and caught loads.... Just 12 minutes for the first bite.

Run out of fuel...??? I've never been there but only by pure chance and a little bit of luck. Its an occupational hazard when we take our aircraft to the edge of the envelope.... it has happened before and it will happen again... thankfully this time they all walked away from the scene and hopefully the next crew will also have the fortune to walk away.

TorqueOfTheDevil

29th Mar 2010, 21:53

Somewhat embarrassing, it's true, but not half as bad as the Puma crew in
Portugal (or was it Spain?) who took a detour to see a bridge some years back...

H Peacock

29th Mar 2010, 22:02

Run out of fuel...??? I've never been there but only by pure chance and a little bit of luck. Its an occupational hazard when we take our aircraft to the edge of the envelope....

What! Not too sure what happened with this particular Puma, but in all of my 8,000 hrs of military flying I've never relied upon luck/chance to prevent me from running out of fuel.

:ugh:

pasptoo

29th Mar 2010, 22:06

the crew made the correct decision by landing as they approached their fuel minima, having worked out that it was unlikely that they could make their destination, as they are trained to do. Had they not, and pressed on, the circumstances may have been markedly different, and may have justified the over-reaction from the emergency services

Alternatively, head for the mountains :ugh:

or

refuel site 22 miles from take off point, with 27 minutes endurance....:O
Applecross = 0' AMSL, Aultbea = 0' AMSL

Well done the crew (and for staying with the aircraft)

Are you serious??

AFCs all round then?

'they learned about flying from that', as Wg Cdr Spry used to say!

I do hope so !

jivusajob

29th Mar 2010, 22:14

so that would be refuel site 11 mins (22 miles) from take off point with 27 mins fuel endurance. 16 mins fuel to spare. Sounds like loads to me should have pressed on.

HEDP

29th Mar 2010, 22:21

Maybe they heard that fuel prices might go down a couple of pence the next day and decided to do their bit for the next round of savings!!!

heights good

30th Mar 2010, 03:42

"Yesterday, a Ministry of Defence spokeswoman said bad weather had caused the Super Puma's estimated journey time to increase."

Pasptoo - I do hope you are on the wind up as you truly have shown a lot or ignorance/arrogance towards this incident. As the above quote suggests the crew did have enough fuel to fly direct to their destination but were unable to because of weather. This resulted in not having enough heading the long way round. As for "heading for the mountains" they were mountain flying already, not diverting there as suggested by you.

The crews stayed with the aircraft overnight to make sure it wasn't plundered during the night. Nothing to do with medals. Would you like to leave your car in the middle of nowhere overnight with sensitive equipment on board after having a lot of attention from the media and locals? I would suggest not.

The Daily Record is not renowned for is award winning journalism, dont take what the newspapers say as gospel.

Dont believe everything you read, newspapers wouldnt make money selling good news!

HG

Octane

30th Mar 2010, 05:24

How do you refuel one helicopter from another?? Would it have been with 200L drums and hand pump?

Cows getting bigger

30th Mar 2010, 06:23

Get a Chinook 'fat cow' and pump a few spare litres across. :)

PhamousPhotographer

30th Mar 2010, 10:00

Was this from ALD or Benson?

Not JHC Aldergrove as the last RAF Squadron (230) 'relocated' from here to Benson on 17th November 2009. Unhappy daze.

PS. Agreed heights good. The crew weren’t the first to land on outside the big fence due to lack of Avtur and won’t be the last. Not a drama.

Fareastdriver

30th Mar 2010, 10:02

Many years ago in far warmer and wetter climes somebody was driving their Whirlwind around Malaysia on a Cat renewel. The trapper gave him odd tasks and small diversions and he followed these to the letter.
Eventually, after lots of prompting the trapper persuaded the candidate to land in a clearing before the engine went quiet. Fuel endurance had been the last thing on the mind of our hero and he was running out. I had to bring a drum of fuel and a pump so they could get back to Changi.
How to fail a 'D' Cat. renewel.

david parry

30th Mar 2010, 10:55

QUOTE V Shocking.... Never happen in the Navy :hmm: Vice Admiral Richard Bell Davies VC CB DSO AFC. Returning to Eastchurch, low on fuel. We would look for a hospitable looking country house, where we would land for lunch ,and petrol The house was Belhus Park , built in Tudor times, where Mrs Stead the owner provided lunch and fuel. He then took her up for a flight. Collecting a barrel of oysters, on another day when, running out of fuel

oldbeefer

30th Mar 2010, 16:26

Torque of the devil. Twas Portugal on or around '87. Nav kept telling the pilot to land - kept on - one flamed out - told to land - kept on - second flamed out - just in front of them were some barracks - EOL into the parade square - tail boom broke off. Pilot left soon after to fly airlines!

vecvechookattack

30th Mar 2010, 16:36

I have to agree. I think the Aircraft Commander should get an AFC for this. Because of his quick thinking and instinctive decision making he saved his crew and he saved a valuable aircraft.

Well done that man... See you at the Palace

TorqueOfTheDevil

30th Mar 2010, 16:40

Oldbeefer,

That's the one! Am I right in thinking that the parade square where they ended up was only about a mile from the airfield they were trying to reach? Doesn't make it any better, but the pilot must have thought he was home and dry just as the second engine quit. I'm surprised the nav hadn't tried more physical intervention by that stage when it became obvious that the pilot was giving a stiff ignoring to his warnings and to the loss of the first engine...!

TOTD

Radar Command T/O

30th Mar 2010, 18:52

Just so I get this straight, then:

They planned to fly through mountains, with less than 30 mins endurance. When bad weather was encountered (it was Scotland in winter, after all), instead of turning back towards their departure point which, if I did my sums right, they had enough fuel to reach (the entire planned journey taking less than half of their fuel), they div-navved onwards towards their destination, but couldn't get there with the fuel available, so landed in a field before they ran out of fuel and crashed.

Anyone else see the flaws?

Yes, all's well that ended well, and it's easier to analyse in hindsight, but a couple of better decisions earlier in the sortie could have saved red faces all round here.

PTT

30th Mar 2010, 19:00

Nobody died; the aircraft is safe. Sounds good to me.

With hindsight there are better ways to do this (show me a sortie where there isn't!), but when all is said and done, see my first sentence.

racedo

30th Mar 2010, 21:27

I think the Aircraft Commander should get an AFC for this. Because of his quick thinking and instinctive decision making he saved his crew and he saved a valuable aircraft.

What was the name of the school, orphanage and hospital that they avoided. :rolleyes:

The took action based on situation they were in at the time yet everybody wants to second guess them, aircraft ok, crew ok, pride hurt............way better than the alternative.

Cabe LeCutter

31st Mar 2010, 01:37

TOTD
I seem to recall that JH, the navigator made some sort of promise whilst wielding the crash axe.

Heads down, look out for the flack

CrabInCab

1st Apr 2010, 18:43

Read the DSFOR today, paints a rather different picture (unsurprisingly) from the drivel that's been in the press and on some of the posts here. Well worth a read.

Sqwark2000

1st Apr 2010, 20:18

Why the big "search" if

Air traffic controllers were informed that the chopper was landing near Loch Maree in Wester Ross and the Coastguard were called at 4.45pm.

S2K

Mmmmnice

2nd Apr 2010, 08:03

Seems like a lot of fuss about nothing - keeps the 'holier than thou' brigade going though and saves the rest of the trouble of digging up old Puma banter. Strikes me that if you've never got a bit low on gas and had to make the call then you're not doing it right - I just never ended up in the papers (not for almost running out of fuel that is......)

chinook240

2nd Apr 2010, 08:13

Worrying thing must be the amount of time SAR took to find a fully 'S' aircraft with uninjured crew who were operating all their mandatory equipment correctly on the mainland UK.

Mmmnice,

What did you make the papers for?
:O

The Helpful Stacker

3rd Apr 2010, 04:26

How do you refuel one helicopter from another?? Would it have been with 200L drums and hand pump?

Well the first time I had to do an aircraft-to-aircraft refuel it involved a couple of Westland's finest acrobatic pizza delivery vehicles in a field not too far from XMG.

One of them had stayed away from the services of those fine upstanding men of TSW a little too long and the other was the donor aircraft, which carried two of those, as mentioned, upstanding chaps, a Deutz 150gpm pump and two lengths of 2 1/2" SR hose with suitable couplings for the task in-hand.

Some rather embarrassed smurfs were back to the relative safety of the skies and then R850 after a surprisingly quick turn around.

Dan Gerous

3rd Apr 2010, 08:26

There is a picture in the latest issue of Airforces Monthly, of the Falklands SeaKing on a rescue mission, taking on fuel from a Navy ship while in flight. It is at the stern of the ship, but there appears to be a fairly big Heli deck on the ship and what appears to be 2 hangers on it as well. Why would they re-fuel in flight when there is a landing space?