Calling all experienced pilots...we need help!!

[Kash360]

Like many of you in this forum looking for that first lucrative job let me extend my hand of friendship as like you I am in the same boat which has no destination. As you maybe aware that there is now small but never the less green shoots in a few places across the world. I find myself in hope as ever, but what does blow a hard and heavy blow to my hopes is the amount of people joining these pay to fly schemes. This leading to experienced pilots being turned away because they have too much experience which could only mean that the airlines have taken a liking to pilots who are lining the pockets of these airlines by paying for type ratings and line trainings. I too want a job flying but not at the expense of hurting people in the process, and I find that is what many of us are doing. I don’t care if it’s CAE or Eaglejet or anyone else they are all the same. I have been a loyal member of this website for a few years and have always said that it was this website that helped me during my training and I wish to repay it back by helping some of you.

The truth of the matter is I have nothing. Nothing at all that I could help you with other than my opinions and support. I have travelled at far lengths to try and break into the market. I even thought that by myself having years of experience within aviation from loading bags on to planes to being an operations supervisor for an airline would help. I even thought that becoming an engineer may help. I then did my licence and thought well this must help me prosper. But none of the above have and for this reason I thought that opening this thread would be a good idea for us too all put our minds together and think what we are doing wrong. Surely there are no rules to this thing; some get employed via CV’s and some by picketing outside airline offices.

I until now have sent 1300 C.V’s , followed them up with phone calls, travelled the length of the UK stopping at every airport, took a flight to Africa and pitched my tent for 2 months, returning to the UK to resend my 1300 C.V’s and travelled the length of the UK to see if things have progressed.

This thread is not only for the benefit of myself but is also for you. I would openly like to invite our seniors/experienced pilots to share with us what else we could do to bear fruit.

So the question for this thread to our experienced pilots is what are we to do with our licences?
I am sure this has been covered a number of times but what I would like to do is draw new light on this matter from a new angle.

Kash360

[Superpilot]

Kash,

I've posted this elsewhere but here goes...heres a classic example of why me fighting for the pilot cause by avoiding P2F is killing my own employment chances which I have been chasing now for two years since completing my fATPL training.

Last year I had the choice between an A320 type rating with a popular and respected TRTO or the ATP P2F A320 TR + 150 line hours scheme. I went for the bare A320 TR with a TRTO who have an excellent record holding on to my morals and thinking their airline links would get me somewhere.

At this point in time, the TRTO have no relationship with any airline for newly type rated folk. My emails get ignored and when I speak to the guy who sold me the course its like "what do you want me to do?" (fair enough). So look where my morals have got me? I know of many who went through one of these courses and have now received paid flying contracts some even are in perm positions taking home £4k per month.

Let's face it, pilots being human beings are just as capable of being selfish bastards, jumping the gun in order to further their own. It's the world we live in now.

So tell me, what should someone like me do?

[UAV689]

Superpilot - I am sorry for you, and Kash for that matter.

Buy to other out there, take heed of superpilots experience. NEVER buy a type rating without a firm job offer, and by firm rock solid, set in steel re-enforced concrete.

A TR without lots of experience is worthless, airlines will still probably put you through their own TR, and line training etc.

[BoeingOnFinal]

I'm in the same position. I'm lucky to have a flight instructor job, and it keeps me current, but I get like 150 hours a year and it will take me 8 years to hit the current required experience of the airlines (not the money requirement, luckily some still require experience). I have a job outside aviation, and I am happy with that.

I consider paying for a TR with no contract signed for an airline just as "pay-to-fly" as paying for a TR+line training. I mean, what is the difference? You are not getting paid to fly, and it is wrong. I stretched it far enough by paying for the FI-course myself, which after 1,5 years of instructing I have received about half the cost back. And that is one of the cheapest "pay-to-fly" schemes you can enter.

My plan is to live my life as it is right now, and don't worry about the future. I'll keep those licences current (cheap since I don't have a TR), and wait for the time where my graph of increasing flight time hits the graph of required total time of the airlines. If this happens by reduced requirement because of increased pilot demand or me hitting the current requirement, only time can tell :)

The airlines can afford to pay pilots what they deserve, we are just not giving them the opportunity to do so. First step must surely be to refuse pay-to-fly schemes?

[Nearly There]

You are doing nothing wrong Kash, its just a dire market out there at the moment, dont beat yourself up about it, there are many in the same position inc myself.

With your Ops experiance have you explored ops jobs? foot in the door and back in aviation were you can keep your ear to the ground.

[Superpilot]

Guys,

To be fair, folks were walking into A320 jobs with just the bare rating only a few months before I started. Cockpit4u have had an excellent relationship with a few German and Far Eastern airlines, and Storm Aviation (TRTO now closed) had a similar relationship with other airlines. Things are dead now understandibly.

The other thing is no UK airline at this point in time or indeed in the last 3 or 4 years will give you a job without a type rating - Just try it and tell me otherwise. I'm afraid for the vast majority of us, a CPL/ME/IR is absolutely worthless unless you have connections or are extremely lucky. The whole system is in breakdown. The traditional method of recruitment whereby airlines invite new pilots to apply for positions, put them through a fair assessment and hire them accordingly just doesn't exist anymore.

Airlines have no reason to be interested in pilots who they cant get onto the line within a week or two and save £20k. Reality is, any employer would juice the cost of the TR through reduced salary and/or bonding any way. From this point of view I stand by my decision to do the rating.

I've said it before and I'll gladly say it again. Our senior pilots (those with bargaining power through BALPA) have outright failed to protect the job of the pilot. Now the **** is creeping upwards and affecting their own positions directly, they are beginning to realise where they have failed. It's just too late.

[stefair]

Kash,

I am sorry to hear about your troubles. Wow, 1,500 CV's - that's A LOT! :eek:

While I know a few people, who I have met over the years at various stages of my training and who have secured employment as pilot, I know a whole lot of people who have not. Some of them have actually left the industry and even given up. One pilot I spoke to during my training said, "only those, who give up, will fail." Well said.

As I repeatedly said so before here, dishing out CV's randomly, or doing a SSTR, will most likely get you the job ... not. A very few might get lucky, the huge majority will not. Particularly, if you do not have a lot of experience. Being at the right place at the right time might get you the job. Personally, I think all that's a load of crap. I rather prefer taking the bull by its horns and get myself out there instead of sitting at home all day waiting for a phone call or email. What will get you a job is being pro-active and showing a lot of self-initiative. Be there in person! Aviation is a strange industry. You are being watched veeery closely all the time. And judged. By what you say and what you do. Be an alright fella who people like having around and know your stuff a little. From little what I know I can tell you so much, you will be alright.

I have said it here before and I am saying it again, if you do not know someone in the insight be your own boss and kick off at the bottom of the latter, e.g. join a gliding club, maybe a flying club, hang around airfields, find yourself a nonflying job at the airport. Work in the industry. Stay in the industry. Rampie will do, refueler, you name it. It's common practice in Canada, for example, to start off as a loader before you get a sniff at flying the damn thing you load every day! I would not recommend doing a FI rating these days because you would need a student to pay for your services...

In late summer 2008, I finished my training and have had nine interviews with GA outfits and airlines respectively. I got those interviews either by word to mouth or by constantly checking on respective websites and before sending out my CV by calling their chief pilot and making my name and voice known (verbal communication plays a huge role in determining sympathy or antipathy). Some of my applications went successful, some not. It's a numbers game but do increase your chances to win. Since I came out of flight school I have sent out about 35 CV's. I started off flying a 172 for peanuts. Admittedly, I got lucky as I knew a guy who had flown for the outfit I began flying with back then. But I know some of my friends would not even look at it, as it is not a jet job and therefore, in their eyes, not an opportunity... True. As sad as it is.

I refuse to believe that there's no jobs out there. There is. Just look harder and wiser.

Best of luck!!!

[IrishJason]

Some very good advice there Stefair:ok:

[Luke SkyToddler]

It's all about luck and timing and you've had neither so far. Your problem is not so much P2F, as it is the fact that you're in the UK which is probably the country on earth worst affected by this economic recession thing at the moment. You could send a million CVs and get the same result because there are simply no jobs going right now except for a few P2F shaftings - and those aren't even real jobs they're just tools that some lo-cos are using at the moment to try to get the rest of the workforce to accept lower T&Cs. They'll be the first ones to park airplanes when the economic recovery comes though :mad:

Good times will roll round again for aviation employment, but not for a looong time, most forward thinking employers are looking at the 3 to 4 year time frame before they need to hire again. Virgin Atlantic and Thomson when they had to make redundancies last year, have sent about 100 of their pilots on 3-year fixed term contracts to Qatar Airways rather than sack them outright - they still have retained their seniority with their UK employers. Netjets Europe did a similar thing, they put several hundred of their pilots on a 4-year part time contract working year on year off. Of course that means all these furloughed guys will be returning to the work force before you existing batch of wannabes get a look in.

And of course just looking at the chaos at BA this week I think that there will be no jobs there for a veeery long time :(

So yeah mate I hate to say it but you are basically screwed for the foreseeable, I don't know what happened for you in Maun but you might have to head back there next summer and the summer after that before anything positive happens at home.

All I can suggest is STAY CURRENT on something - anything - even if it's piston singles and a quick whirl in a king air sim every few months - and keep thinking outside the box, you're obviously prepared to travel the world and take anything you can get so I'm quite confident you'll suddenly get your lucky break.

And remember ... it's always darkest just before the dawn :ok:

[Kash360]

Afternoon all,
Firstly allow me to thank you all for participating on this thread. I do strongly believe that experience teaches allot, hence me asking all experienced pilots to share their views on this thread. Secondly I could not agree more that we as a whole must shy away from these pay to fly or SSTR schemes. However much we would like to fly it should not be at the cost of destroying future generations.

I do to a certain degree comprehend and agree on the view that within the UK it would be very unlikely to secure a position without paying for a type rating. However I believe that this must be done in the form of a bond, and not in the hope of securing a job once you have gained your type rating.

As many of you may be aware I have recently returned back to the UK after spending 2 months in Maun and Zambia, my accounts of my trip were shared on this website. The concept of my thread was to show newly qualified pilot as myself the darkness that prevails after one has attained his/her licence. I am certainly not one of those guys who will sit at home waiting for food to fall on his plate, but have demonstrated that it is necessary to go out and find your own food wherever that may be in the world.

I have tried and will carry on trying to try and find the Holy Grail, but at what cost? I have applied to over 400 engineering positions, called every contact in my phone book just to try and get some work. Even after holding a degree in aeronautical engineering and having a licence I do not find myself to be above anyone. I would happily go back to the airport and load bags onto the aircrafts, but even this idea does not seem to shine through.

Hope is certainly one of the best things we have in life, but this quality should not be used to delude ourselves. I will never agree to pay to fly neither would I ever agree to pay for a type rating unless a secure job was offered. I completely agree that the current times we live in are dire, and that they will get better soon. However something’s within our industry do make me feel that we are at the mercy of airlines. For example the likes of Emirates travelling around the world to find cadets when they are fully aware that the world is full of ready to go pilots.

I am not asking for a shinny jet job I’m not asking to fly 747’s or 380’s I’m just asking to FLY but not at any longer at my expense. In today’s climate and please correct me if I am wrong. I find that we have opened Pandora ’s Box only to hit us in the face, for example we opened the doors to Europe and said any job for anyone. But the European airlines are clever and so they should be. They specify that there pilots must speak a number of languages to get a chance with them. Now let’s be honest how many languages do we really know in the UK, not many I suppose.

Anyway I would much appreciate our experience pilots to guide and steer us all in a direction that maybe profitable to us all.

Kash360

[SloppyJoe]

There is not much that can be said. You apply for jobs, try to get a foot in the door, try to make contacts and lastly make yourself more attractive to an employer. Other than that there is nothing else. You can be very committed to each of these things such as sending out thousands of CV's, applying for any jobs with operators not just as a pilot, travel the world to meet people in the companies, getting more ratings and experience. You are doing almost all of this.

Some people try to make themselves more attractive by paying for a TR and some take it further and pay for line training. I do not agree with that even a little bit but it does make people more attractive to some companies, that is a fact and those people will be more likely to find employment than you. That is the problem, most people are selfish and if they can they will try to jump the queue, there is nothing that can be done other than legislation making these schemes unlawful. It will not stop otherwise as there will always be someone willing to pay to sit in a jet as there are a lot of stupid people in the world who take a short cut that will ultimately reduce their future career earnings.

It is all about being in the right place at the right time or having your CV land on the right desk at the right time. I think you have been finding the right places but it is just the wrong time and probably will continue to be the wrong time for a while.

[SpreadEagle]

I have just been on to the Balpa website to see what campaigns they are currently involved in. Interestingly enough P2F isn't there. They are also boasting that their membership is up to over 9000.

Well if Balpa are listening, there are probably 2000 more members waiting to join your ranks if you tackle this one. The next generation need your support now. Many of us may never need you again. Take it on, advertise the cause and I'm sure new members will swell your ranks to cover the costs. I believe it is the single most important issue facing pilots right now. I'm not interested in a post-mortem of XL airways, I don't care that I have to take my shoes off in the airport and I'm really not bothered that Paddy Power were taking bets on which airline will go bust next!:rolleyes:

[bfisk]

Well if Balpa are listening, there are probably 2000 more members waiting to join your ranks if you tackle this one. The next generation need your support now.

And there's your problem. Why on earth should an organization, funded by it's member, care to take on someone else's battle? You have to join ranks first, and then recieve help. It's not the other way around. :ugh:

[shaun ryder]

Naive springs to mind.

[Wireless]

There really isn't much more you can do. Sounds like you're trying all avenues. I admire the travelling to Africa to try for a job. Make sure when you do get an interview that you mention that. The fact you tried those lengths will be well looked upon. I was impressed when I read it anyway.

It's an arid desert as far as job recruitment goes at least for first jobs. Make no mistake there are experienced guys who right now would love to know where to turn. Don't beat yourself up that you can't find water in a desert. My advice would be to concentrate on keeping money coming in to keep your licences and ratings alive and accept your job hunt may only develop legs once things start to move.

[Kash360]

Afternoon,*

Firstly thankyou all for the support you have shown. I feel as if I am missing something, as if I have missed a step in my search to secure a job.*

Yesterday was a low point for me as discussed in my previous thread that I had been contemplating knocking on a door that I wish no one has to ever knock on ( job centre ). Well yesterday was the day I had to knock, the lady who took my interview was amazed at the fact that I had not had any sucess with the qualifications that I hold. Well it at least ruled out any futher training that they thought I would have required.*

I get my first payment on the 12th, I'm ashamed that I have had to sign on. I feel like a complete failiure. When I first completed my training i signed upto all sorts of websites including CAE. *I got a call of them asking if I were interested in attending an assesment for Ryanair? I polietly declined the offer for the reasons noted in the above posts.*

I have had some wonderful and pleasant PM from some of you and for that I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart.*

To my senior's please may you advise us on how else we could try to get our foot on the ladder?*

I thank you all in advance.*

Kash360

[shaun ryder]

Please stop it because you are breaking my heart. As admirable as it was reading about your quest for a job on the African continent, this self pitying is just unnecessary and cringeworthy. Instead of signing on and putting even more pressure on the welfare state, why don't you do something really pro active and get a job? Appealing to professional pilots to sort your life out aint gonna work as most of us have far more pressing things to think about such as keeping our jobs, paying union subs and keeping the family warm and fed. Get used to the fact that there are jack all jobs for inexperienced wannabes unless they have got 30k up their sleeve to waste on an expensive theme park ride. Which as we all know is the real problem here. What are you going to put on your next job application? Sat on arse feeling feeling sorry for myself since completing training looks rather naff i'd say? I think they would be far more impressed if you served a bit of time out there working, think about it.

[First.officer]

Bit harsh there i think shaun.....after all, i suspect although Kash has just signed on this may be more a short term thing while he can assess his next move maybe in the employment arena ?? i don't know of course but would rather give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.......and after all, with regard to the P2F rot, well that was set in stone long before Kash came along - he now, like many others has to deal with the consequences of the situation, and given his stated desire not to go down that route then i think that is commendable on its own.

As for advice, would love to advise you Kash but i'm not the best to give advice i'm afraid given that i'm a relative newbie to the industry myself (10 years in one form or another) - maybe securing an ops. job, cabin crew, dispatch and networking here for a few years to see if it bears any fruit ?? worked for me but to be fair times were certainly more buoyant a few years ago ! and of course they will be again, just a case of playing the waiting game. There does seem to be the first shoots out in the market regarding recruitment albeit for more experienced guys, have friends that are considering moves and am being told of opportunities that exist, whilst not much help to the new kid on the block, this usually means movement elsewhere and will hopefully lead to a return to recruitment at the lower end of the food chain, again i suspect that is some time off though.

Sorry i can't be much more help !

F/O

[flyvirgin]

Shaun I’m sorry mate, but that’s just harsh, how can comment on being pro active? Kash bloody got of his backside and went out to Maun in search of a job, now that’s commitment, just out of curiosity did you (or would you) go out to Africa in search of a job, put your hand on your heart and be truthful,
He is using his brain, using this site to “network” getting as much help from old experienced pilots as possible, me personally think’s its fantastic what he is doing,
Keep up the hard work Kash it WILL pay off
Anyways
Hope your all having a lovely holiday,
Flyvirgin,

[dynamite dean]

Lukeskytoddler summed it up in the last paragraph. Keep current on anything just to keep yer licenses at least ticking over. UK very poorley hit thats why my location is OEJN and not EGCC.I wish you all the very best, I wish these flying schools integrated ; modular or whatever fancy wrapping you want to call it would not always keep ranting about get your license get a A320 rating or whatever it is and your like 20 years old then you have 45 years on metal and no variation in the career other than flying in JAA land, play with your lives a bit go travelling, work in restaurant work go on a cruise ship play in a band come back to the flying in year or so ..ah well whado I know anyway!

[shaun ryder]

In answer to your question virgin, no I would not. Unfortunately my list of commitments require me to keep the cash flowing. Happily for me I have a trade on which to fall back on. I dont have the luxury of being part of the come home generation. The responsibilties of most men require them to provide a wage for the household, we all have to keep our necks above the water line. I am not trying to wind the poor chap up, but a good dose of reality is not going to do him any harm. Sounds harsh but its just a different angle on the unfortunate situation that is occuring above. You can be as pro active as you like, send thousands of cvs and kiss lines of arse as long as you like. But when it comes to the crunch, if you were mine Kash, you would be down at halfords begging for a job as long as you were living under my roof. Sorry if that upsets some of you, but you have to accept other peoples points of view.

[6000PIC]

No demand , an oversupply of pilots , an industry and society that doesn`t care and an economy that is down 6.7 % in the last year ? Take a break for a few years , get another skill / trade / profession and then come back when the numbers are more ... positive. I respect your tenaciousness but you must accept reality. It`s a numbers game as much as anything else. Boeing has orders for almost 900 787`s , when they are about a third of the way through that production run in the year 2015 , then will be the time to jump back in. Until then , get that career skill you`ll need to fall back on for the next recession.

[Kash360]

Thank you all for taking the time to post, I very much appreciate your honest opinions and advice. In my previous post I have already highlighted that I do have a backup plan as before I tried to pursue a career as a pilot, I had qualified as an aeronautical engineer and worked at the European space agency followed by as an oil and gas consultant for a large petroleum company. It was not until I got made redundant and tried to get back into engineering that I followed this path.
I don’t want people feeling sorry for me, and neither do I wish to hack people off. And if you feel that I have in anyway please forgive me as this certainly was not my intension. I do not wish to be signing on at the job centre. I’m not holding out for a pilot’s job or an engineering job. I would be more than happy to accept any job in any field. This is what I am currently trying to do, I was not born with a golden spoon in my mouth, and I worked damn hard from the age of 16 and saved every penny all my life to become a pilot.

I understand that there is no job as a pilot out there for me, but I don’t want to look back in the future and say that I didn’t try my upmost and sincere best. My first ever job was loading bags onto aircrafts and worked my way up. But this isn’t my story it’s the story of thousands of us inexperienced pilots who have paid out their own pockets. And have promised themselves not to pay to fly.

If I have upset anyone in the process of expressing my views and opinions or even asking for a bit of advice I apologise from the bottom of my heart.


Kash360

[wingbar]

Kash,

I did a few stints at the dole office after I was fully qualified. I know it feels awful and wouldnt wish it on anybody. But being as you have paid tax, and certainly your flying course had taxation upon it, you are damn well entitled to Dole. So claim away. At least you've shown that you have done everything that could be asked of you.
This has to be one of the most heartless, and worrying industries in the world, and it's getting worse by the day.

As a side note I never paid for a type rating either but went down the instructional route. I was lucky in the sense of timing. Before the true madness with the banks arrived into daylight.
I must say it makes me appreciate what I have now 20 fold.

It's not easy, I know but I wish you well in your search, it's a well trodden path, but I know it can feel lonely sometimes.
You are unfortunately stuck with the wonders of the UK economy.

Good luck, I really mean that! :ok:

[alphaadrian]

Kash

I wish you the best of luck. You seem like really nice guy. I dont think there is anymore you can do really. Its just a sad reflection of the market at the moment. Last week I was flying a little TP round the highlands of Scotland...this week i too am sitting in the dole office:{. Until the market improves, I dont rate your chances much and whilst I believe the situation will get better...we aint talkin short-term:(.
My advice (and it applies to me too!!). Hang on in...go back to your original career...keep current..and wait for things to change. Dont stop applying but be realistic too. BTW I applaud you not resorting to P2F....i think its a despicable practice but hey people are selfish b**tards and pilots are people so it doesnt come as a shock!

Good luck my friend
Alpha:ok:

[flyhelico]

try to get a job for an airport.
load planes, drive bus, refueling...

[petesevenseven]

Hi There Kash,

I see you mentioned Zambia and Bots. I might add me and a couple of mates of mine had very similar experiences to you in Maun. Maun is all about timing if your'e not there at the right time and you don't like sheep in long grass then forget it!!!!!!

In my time many years ago we didn't waste our time we just headed for East Africa and there was plenty of work to go around. So What i'm trying to say is there are more country's that you could have tried in africa. For instance Tanzania thats where me and my mates ended up, but don't leave it there try Uganda, Rwanda, The DRC,Gabon,Equatorial Guinea, Ghana granted some of them not as pleasant as others but really worth giving a go.

Its in times like these you gotta be prepared to go where no one else will!!! It worked for me. So pack a backpack and just go and start knocking on these doors. Its worth noting in all these exotic places no one will hire you online.com.

I'm happy to say that it all worked out for me and my mates we are all flying for various airlines around the world NONE OF US ENDED UP PAYING FOR A RATING.

I started out in africa with 273.2 Hrs i was unemployed for 8 months then i got offered 3 jobs in 1 week when it rains it pours!!!! I was lucky enough that my first job was on a Multi Turbine/ Multi Crew aircraft because it made my JAR conversion much easier I left Africa with just under 2500hrs all of it on turbine aircraft...

So give africa another go.... Try to think outside the box a little don't follow the sheep....Also don't be so quick to tell the world you scored your first job till your'e through with your line training and comfortably flying the line because the next thing you know there will be 20 other guys hanging around up that tree waiting to take your job!!!!

Hope that helps!!!

Pete77:ok:

[George Semel]

I been following Kash360 for a while now. I don't know what to say. All I can say that its the toughest job market I have ever seen for pilots here in the States, and we have a little more aviation here than in most places, and I have been in the business since 1974 when I started. There are jobs but its very narrow and type. In other worlds a light airplane and helicopter bush pilot like myself with plenty of flight time is not going to get a job flying A-320's in China or 747's till the economic out look improves a lot of us will be on the streets. There is nothing you can do about it, other than keep applying and let the employer say no, not you. Employers are getting over run with resume's when a few short years ago they were not. In my last interview, for example the employer gotten 900 resumes for the job, in this case an Helicopter EMS job. The gotten the pile down to 9 and made phone calls, then they gotten the that pile down to three and made another phone call interviews for two seats. I had gotten down to the final three, Not bad, it would have been better If I had gotten one of the seats, I fly both airplanes and helicopters and and I have well over 10K for hours in the logbook and a bunch more I can put in one. So its not always about fight time. Its just what it is. There is always tomorrow.

[Kash360]

Afternoon,

I would like to thank all the people who have provided me with leads; I appreciate your help and support. I would also like to personally thank George Semel for participating on this thread. George has been a pillar of support during my tour of Africa, and is someone we should all heed to when advice is being offered. In the same context I would like to thank you all for your posts too.

It has been raised in one of the above posts and why I should not go back and explore Africa a bit more. I have no response to this as I think it is a fantastic idea in which I would love to go back and try my luck again. However at the current moment in time funds have dried out, and am trying to save up again to fund my next venture.

I received a call this morning from a SSTR organisation; I was shocked at how convincing these guys are, offering me an A320 type and 150 line training for just under £40,000. Anyway I am sticking to my guns and resisting that route. I have been following up any leads and as yet have not heard anything back.

This morning had been down to the temping agencies handing out C.V’s so hopefully hear something back. I am trying to think outside of the box, but like it has been said before that I may have tried everything in my power.

So for the short term I have decided to stay current and keep plugging away at looking for work. I would also like to point out to Shaun Ryder who has been kind enough to share his views, that even though they were painful to read, I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your advice. I truly believe that the advice you offered was meant in my best interest.

However I anyone does have any further advice for inexperienced pilots, I would be forever grateful if you could share it with us. Myself and am sure many others like me would be honoured by your views and advice. As always I hope this post finds you all in best health.

Kash360

[ei-flyer]

Ever considered being an author?

[Kash360]

Afternoon,

As always I hope this post and all the ones to follow find you in good health and content with all you do. I opened this thread not for me, but for all who travel the same path as I do. It can be said that this road is long and hard, but I would like to say that this road has taught me allot and has demonstrated that people on this website have crossed this path too. It is those who have travelled this road who show and offer us their encouragement and advice.

We all hold the required paperwork, but only a few of us have the courage to see our journey to the end. I met up with a few pilots who are too in the same position as me last night. It was to say the least heartbreaking and upsetting to find that these pilots had lost all hope in succeeding in their goals. They were now exploring the route of the forbidden fruit (pay to fly).

I plead to all those who have succeeded on their path to please share with us your experience, I hope this will help guide and deter those who have lost hope?

I am not asking for you to provide us with all your contacts neither are we asking that you give our CV’s to those in charge, just asking that if you be so kind to share your journeys with us so we may find hope and encouragement to stay on this path.

I apologise if you find that you feel that I am out of my depth to ask such things. However I really do think it will help those who are being discouraged.

Ei-flyer, thank you for your post but the answer is no. I have never considered being an author, I believe I do not have the skills and plus the fact that I would be the only one to buy a copy to give to my mother.

Kash360.

[Airbus Girl]

I feel sorry for you guys at the start of your career, but I feel that there are a few comments on this thread that might need a bit of a reply.

BALPA does not want to see pay to fly and to that end BALPA is involved as much as it can be to try and stop the practice. You can join BALPA as an Associate Member for £24 a year, free if you are still training. You can get involved with BALPA to try and help change things and to help with campaigns. Much goes on behind the scenes, that is not always publicised widely, but if you look around the website or call the office you will find out more. In fact BALPA is often looking for extra volunteers to help with campaigns. But remember that BALPA is really its members - BALPA has no sway directly on the airlines - BALPA members in airlines can fight to stop the airline introducing these schemes, but unless all the pilots are prepared to go on strike there is only so much that can be done.

The only way this practice will stop is if new pilots stop taking the deals. Currently there are lots of qualified experienced pilots looking for jobs. Many of those will remain out of work because new pilots choose to pay to fly. This only further erodes terms and conditions, and once those pilots have been used by the airline they will get rid of them and get in the next batch of pay to fly. This will continue ad infinitum, until new pilots put a stop to it. Once new pilots stop accepting these deals then airlines will have no choice but to pay a proper wage to employ the pilot with the best experience/ skills.

If anyone has time on their hands then why not write a balanced article for publication in The Log, BALPA's mag?

I have seen so many posts on various forums about it all being BALPA's fault and how its terrible for the new guys coming through. But you have to be smart and take some responsibility here - if no-one paid for their own type rating, the airlines would have to!!!!

So ultimately you are shooting yourselves in the foot by paying for your own type ratings and also with pay to fly. I know its really tough out there and most airlines expect it, but the only way that will change is when the airlines run out of people willing to pay to work. Until then, each pilot who gets to the end of their pay to fly scheme will simply be replaced by another. Bear that in mind when you sign up and send your cheque.

Perhaps energies could be channelled to this end - publicise to your fellow new pilots that no-one should accept pay to fly schemes. Of course, as mentioned previously, pilots can be selfish and there is bound to be someone who will break ranks. It happened over the last few years with type ratings and now its pay to fly.

Another campaign that is always worth a mention is this one:
FairPlane (http://www.fairplane.org.uk)
This is a campaign to get more funding for flight training and/or get rid of tax on flight training.

Good luck guys!

[Superpilot]

BALPA does not want to see pay to fly and to that end BALPA is involved as much as it can be to try and stop the practice.

OK Airbus Girl. Prove it. There's not a single item on their website that even mentions so-called Pay 2 Fly schemes. Just ask marketing if they have ever done anything remotely related to raising public/industry awareness about this practice. The answer is a resounding NO!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

They've condemned it in The Log.

Ultimately there is only one person/one entity that can stop free men signing a pay-to-fly contract with an airline employer. It isn't BALPA and it isn't other pilots or the Courts. Its Wannabes. They are the ONLY people who have the power to stop pay-to-fly.

But they never ever work collectively and never will. These days the one with the biggest pile of cash wins. And nothing else matters.

Truly sad for the profession but there you are.


WWW

[Airbus Girl]

Superpilot: OK Airbus Girl. Prove it.

OK then....
The BALPA NEC are trying to stop pay per fly. Bear in mind that these guys are volunteers, and do this in their own time, in between flying duties.

They are working on a BALPA policy statement expressing opposition to these practices, and also on bonding issues. This will be useful for both new pilots and the airline reps.

The NEC are also looking at the tax implications, to try to at least establish pay to fly pilots as employees rather than self employed pilots.

BALPA are also trying to get official recognition for trainee pilots at their training organisation so that BALPA can be involved in negotiations on contracts.

There is a new email being set up so that trainee pilots can send info to BALPA about what is really happening, because much of what BALPA know is purely hearsay. It will be [email protected].

The NEC is also trying to encourage new pilots to join, which will help BALPA to fight their cause.

It would be interesting to know how many of you on this forum are members of BALPA or get involved trying to help out? I suspect the number is very low, despite the low cost per year, yet you expect pilots who are working full time, such as the BALPA reps and members of the various BALPA study groups to help out by giving their time for your cause.

As it happens, all the members of the various study groups (including those involved in your cause) are volunteers who do it in their spare time.

A phone call to BALPA would get you further information should you require it.

[Kash360]

Afternoon,

I would like to express my gratitude for both WWW and Airbus girl to participate on this thread; it is a great honour to have you both share your views on the matter of BALPA. However I could not agree more than share the views of WWW, where the underlining matter is the wannabes who are taking up this route of destruction. Never the less after taking some time to think on this matter, I thought it would be great to call BALPA.

I have this morning called BALPA and congratulated them on this matter, I have also joined and expressed my concerns and offered to help in any way possible to win this cause. I do not think it is enough for us to sit in the comforts of our homes and accept that this problem exits but do nothing to help the cause.

I have scheduled a meeting with BALPA and will pay them a visit and try and shine any light I can through the articles I have been asked to write. However even though my views are much in line with WWW and Airbus girl, I do think that we could go one step further. I do understand that it is the wannabes who are destroying this industry, however if our experienced pilots could speak to their chiefs in charge and point out this cause with all its implications it may deter them from hiring them in the further. It’s just some food for thought.

I am not part of any organisation; however I do stand up for what I strongly believe in. And this is a matter that I do strongly believe in. If any of you think that I may be able to help in anyway, then I do have the time and passion and would be grateful if you PM me.

To Wannabes like me,

Please remember this is our industry, and at the moment it is on its knees. Please don’t help to bring it down further. We must take care of our future and the future of the industry, paving a path where we can stand proud and know that we helped the cause for pilots to come. It is our responsibility as well as others, and I understand that we cannot get jobs at the moment but paying to fly is not the answer to our problems.

Kash360.

[Superpilot]

Airbus Girl, with all due respect that's not proof. How do I or any member of the public know about each of the below?

The BALPA NEC are trying to stop pay per fly....

They are working on a BALPA policy statement expressing opposition to these practices, and also on bonding issues....

The NEC are also looking at the tax implications....

BALPA are also trying to get official recognition for trainee pilots...

Proof is a public statement. Proof is when they mention 'Pay2Fly' on the campaigns page (http://www.balpa.org/News-and-campaigns/Campaigns.aspx).

BALPA have done next to nothing to raise awareness of this disease. You cannot honestly say that in the context of all the other campaigns they are running that they are "trying" to do something about Pay2Fly.

[SpreadEagle]

It seems my earlier mentioning P2F and Balpa in the same post was rather divisive. The sensible thing, would be for me to shuffle off into the electronic ether and see how things pan out.

However I sense from the very defensive posts from Airbus girl, that you are in some way involved with Balpa (albeit in a subservient role) and that you probably know how to contact someone who matters.

It just so happens, I was let off a couple of landing fees today and I now by sheer coincidence, have £24 pounds, burning a hole in my pocket. So if Pay2Fly appears as and active campaign on Balpa's website, I will put my money where my mouth is and PM you my membership number. Can't say fairer than that? :ok:

[Kash360]

Afternoon,

Firstly I would like to thank all those who have sent me a PM to show support, encouragement and providing me with leads. However still I find myself in the same place I have been for the past few months, at home scrounging of my parents. Currently life is at a standstill, I’m even finding it difficult to get a job at Tesco’s stocking shelves, let alone a flying position.

I do not wish to sit on this website and cry my eyes out, trying to persuade you guys to feel sorry for me. However the truth is that there is thousands of people in the same position as me, I’m not trying to be a spokesman for them but I feel that there must be something that we can do to get our foot on the ladder.


I haven’t borrowed a single penny to become a pilot; I worked hard and saved up. While my mates were going partying at night I stayed in. While my mates went to Starbucks for a coffee, I drank tap water. I haven’t bought myself anything in the past 8 years. I saved every penny. And now when I look in my dad’s eyes I’m not sure what I see, him being proud of me or being disappointed. I feel though he is saying what a dumbass wasting all his money on nothing other than a few worthless pieces of paper. I’m not trying to prove him wrong all I want to do is get these hands dirty, I no longer care about getting on the right hand seat of an aircraft all I care about now is getting back on my two feet. If that means scrubbing toilets for the rest of my life so be it!!


I’m not ashamed or disappointed at spending tens of thousands of pounds on training, in fact if I had a chance I would do it all again. Becoming a pilot was not a mistake it was my dream and hopes and I believe that every person has the right to follow their dreams however small or big. If I had children I would tell them to go out and do everything they wanted in life.

I have received an email from an experienced pilot who was so kind to share his journey to his first job, it was an eye opener and gave me allot of encouragement to go further. I would like to ask if our experience pilots could also share there journeys with us on here so we may be able to learn and maybe notice our own mistakes.


Kash360.

[robmcn]

You say you want to fly and that you are trying to resist the temptation to pay for a type rating and hours on type, which i take to mean that if needs be you can find some money. So why not become a flight instructor. I am aware that it is probably not possible to get full time employment as an instructor and in this era of type ratings and pay to fly it may not be highly regarded but if you were as persistent in pursuing a job as you have been so far you would surely be able to get a day or two a week somewhere. And if flying is your dream then simply being able to fly once or twice a week would certainly improve your outlook on life. Once you have an instructor rating, even if you never manage to gain a full time airline job you will always be able to fly even if you have to have a nine to five job that pays the bills.

[paddyt56]

Kash,

You have said previously that you would pay for a type rating if you did have a guaranteed jon at the end of it once you have passed the TR to aairline standard,so then why not apply to ryanair i have not read many of your previous posts so there maybe a good reason but i am sure you have spent a significant amount of money traveling to africa and all around the UK,would it not have been better to spennd this on a ryanair TR and proboboly have a jet job by now...?

[helimutt]

Maybe if you'd made contacts, instead of heading off to Africa??? you might find things different. I realised very early on that in aviation, contacts and knowing people in the right places can get you a long way.
No-one is going to knock on your door and say 'Here's a £50k/yr job in the LHS of my 777'

Don't complain when you get nowhere. Look at what you can do correctly, rather than dwelling on the fact all is doom and gloom.

PS, I saw a sign in McDonalds looking for staff!

[alphaadrian]

Helimutt


£50000 for LHS in a 777?? I dont think they would get get many experienced TR,ed skippers applying for that one hahaha!!:ok:....er have things really got that bad!!

Alpha

[redsnail]

Heading to Africa was not a bad move. It was unfortunate that there were no jobs at the time.
Kash has made contacts that may not pay off right now but they may in the future.

Contacts are vital. I have got a few jobs on contacts. But all the contacts in the world cannot conjure up a job if there is no job there. BUT, they can keep you (the hopeful) in the loop. It is the "hopeful's" task to keep their skills up to speed to capitalise on the opportunity when it arises.

Folks,
Keep a weather eye on Flight International. Look for jobs for sim instructors, engineers etc. That means 1 thing. Expansion.
Look for those who have hired low houred pilots in the past, apply BEFORE they are calling for them. You have to be in first. However, don't waste your time with airlines that have never hired low houred pilots.

Be flexible but don't compromise yourself.

Good luck.

[helimutt]

£50000 for LHS in a 777?? I dont think they would get get many experienced TR,ed skippers applying for that one hahaha!!....er have things really got that bad!!

OOPS, my mistake, I keep forgetting helicopters and airliners are different! :)

But you knew what I meant, i'm sure. Saying that, the future might easily see that sort of salary for a Captain, especially if the airlines think someone paying to sit RHS is a good idea, they'll think and wonder how little they can pay someone to sit in the LHS.

[alphaadrian]

Knew exactly what you meant Helimutt.:ok:

And it wouldnt surprise me at all if the scenario that you suggested in your last post comes true very soon too!!:{

Happy flying dude

[Kash360]

Afternoon All,
As another day passes my hopes of securing a job becomes stronger. As a wise man said before “you’re a day closer to getting a job”. I do not wish to criticize our seniors who have pointed out some of their thoughts on the above posts. However it would be wrong of anyone may that be our seniors or for that fact anyone else to mock our courage and or determination by advising us that there are jobs at his/her local Mc Donald’s. I would not mind working in Mc Donald’s as at least it would bring food to the table, but unfortunately my local Mc Donald’s does not have any vacancies. Trust me I have checked!!


Another few points that have been raised are the ones such as “why do you not pay for the Ryanair Type rating?” I would firstly like to thank the poster for raising this question and also taking the time and effort to post on this thread. I have nothing against Ryanair, honestly I don’t. However I do not think that by paying in the region of £25,000-£30,000 and still being on contract with Brookfield’s who has laid out poor working conditions for our peers. And then being thrown out for the next batch, also the fact that if you are thrown out, there are not that many 737-800 operators.


My trip to Africa and touring the UK cost £4300; I still stand firm that if a job offer was given in black and white, I would be prepared to pay the cost of the type rating.


Another point that has been raised is that why do I not go and make contacts instead of sitting here and moaning about the doom and gloom. Believe me I’m not the kind of person to sit on my ass and be negative and say “oh where are all the jobs, I deserve one because I have a licence” NO I’m a person that believes that it is our responsibility to make our industry a better place. If could not find a job at home I travelled to Africa to find one. I would also like to thank Redsnail who has highlighted that I have certainly made some contacts and am trying to on a daily basis, however contacts is not the be all and end all, you must do something yourself. My Peers, I like you am a low hour pilot with no job. But we don’t need to be part of an airline or a group to better our industry; all we need is the passion that we started out with on our career path.


I was speaking on the phone to an experienced pilot yesterday who advised me that the operator he works for has over 300-400 pilots working there and that the only reason they shy away from PPRuNe is because of our negative attitudes on here. We need our experienced pilots now more than ever to help guide us through this storm, not to deter them from this website. So instead of sitting and moaning or even just reading posts and not learning from there then I believe it is a waste of mine and your time.


The poster above mentioned doing an instructor rating, and firstly I would like to thank him for his time and efforts for posting on this thread. However the reason I am not prepared to go down the route of instructors is that I have sort advice on this website by some very influential peers of ours who have advised against it, on the grounds that there is a dramatic drop in student numbers in the past year, based on people unable to borrow money from the banks. But again I would like to thank you for sharing your view with us.


To all who are like me, low hours, no job. Please don’t let yourselves down; we must have our hope, courage and strength to see this journey through. And by helping each other on the way we can be supportive of each other instead of knocking each other into the ground trying to prove that one person is better than the other. We are not better than anybody!!

Kash360.

[axelFR]

Hello you all,

Kash, I m like you: no airline job, no money left... And time passes bye.
So I ve looked for jobs in the aviation industry, anything: pilot ( no jobs), check in agent, dispatch, Flight attendant...And there I am doing a F/A airline training with a major low cost european airline, at least, I am doing something, I ll make a bit of money and wait there until airlines start to hire again. So really keep faith! I m sure our time will come, it s just a matter a time...And at least I m still in contact with the aircrafts...: not too bad after all! OF course I would like an airline job...but I m still glad I have a job in the aviation industry during this crisis!

good luck to you all!

AxelFR

[robmcn]

My post was not intended to suggest that an instructors rating was going to bring about a full time job, but given some commitment you would almost certainly be able to gain a day a week somewhere, most flying schools have plenty of trial lessons booked at the weekend. What I was suggesting was a way that you would be able to fly.
The flight instructors rating pays its cost back very quickly if you think about it, assuming you pay say £100 a hour to rent an aircraft in the UK and a flight instructor rating costs around £7000 including 30 hours of flying. So on completion of the rating you only need to do say 40 hours instruction and the rating has cost the same as 70 hours flying, anything after that is a bonus and, as anyone who has ever instructed will tell you, you will be a better pilot, have a whole lot of fun and you will have managed to network a bit more. If you really want to be a pilot, find a way to get flying. You don't have to take my advice you could go to your local flying club and offer your services as a safety pilot or if you want to pay for a TR, then ryanair is about as firm an offer as you are going to get, but things will certainly look a little more positive if you are actually doing what you claim to love so much.

[Say again s l o w l y]

They've condemned it in The Log.

Ultimately there is only one person/one entity that can stop free men signing a pay-to-fly contract with an airline employer. It isn't BALPA and it isn't other pilots or the Courts. Its Wannabes. They are the ONLY people who have the power to stop pay-to-fly.

But they never ever work collectively and never will. These days the one with the biggest pile of cash wins. And nothing else matters.

Truly sad for the profession but there you are.


WWW

WWW, you do usually speak a fair bit of sense, but that is a load of tosh.

The people at the bottom of the food chain have absolutely no ability to change things. The ones who can are the management, senior pilots, BALPA CC's and the suchlike.

Blaming wannabee's for the lack of backbone and the "I'm alright Jack" attitude that pilots have shown over this problem is bonkers.

It's like blaming poor peasants for drought or corruption. They suffer from it, they don't cause it to happen.

People who are just out of training are usually up to their eyeballs in debt and are needing a job to start paying it back, of course they will take every single opportunity to start earning a living. It is human nature to try and get ahead in anyway you can. Dog eat dog.

What should have been done is that the senior pilots should have seen this coming and stopped it at the start, unfortunately they didn't and now the genie is out of the bottle. P2F is atrocious, as is paying for a type rating in the first place, but until there is a massive shortage of pilots, then it won't disappear.

Blaming inexperienced, desperate people for finding themselves in a cr*p situation and then doing anything they can to get out of it is simply wrong. They didn't cause it, but sure as hell are suffering because of it.

There are many people who should hang their heads in shame over this issue, but inexperienced and skint wannabees come low down on that list.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Bollocks.

They're skint and in debt and under pressure because they borrowed so much money to pay for a course they thought would by-pass them the the years of flying instruction, regional turboprop flying and climbing the traditional ladder of experience.

Well boo friggin hoo.

You want senior pilots like me to waltz into the base captains office and tell him I'm not prepared to fly today because I don't like how much money the some new pilot has accepted in salary from the company? My arse wouldn't touch the ground until it got to the staff car park!

For getting on for three years now I've been screaming from the rooftops here that pilot training - particularly expensively funded pilot training - was madness and likely to wreck peoples lives. DO NOT deign to lecture me about the plight of poor Wannabes. Those that have sailed themselves onto the debt rocks of Siren have all ignored my, and countless others, clearest warnings. You reap. You Sow.


If you want to see heads hung in shame then its the marketing depts of major FTOs followed by the idiotic un-enquiring parents of clueless Wannabes who put up the equity. After that start shaming the boys and girls who thought they needn't be flying instructors or piston pilots or turboprop FO's and thought they'd prefer to progress straight to Jet airline pilot.

The music stopped. There weren't enough chairs. You Were All Warned.


Sorry to be brutal but you pee'd me off,


WWW

[Say again s l o w l y]

WWW, you've just proved my point for me.

You wouldn't stand up for it as you'd get fired. You have the benefit of at least being able to go into the CP's office and have a word about it. What choice does a desperate, skint, inexperienced identikit wannabee F/O have?

How does one of them saying "No, I won't take the job because it goes against my principles" change anything? There are 500 other people who jump in their shoes without blinking and they know it, as does everyone else.

You as a Captain or line trainer don't have the power to fix it on your own, but if you, I and all of the other more senior pilots got together along with the BALPA CC and kicked up a stink, then something is more likely to happen. Nothing guaranteed of course, but did you stick up for your more inexperienced colleagues by actually doing anything? Or do you think that whinging on a website actually makes the blindest bit of difference?

You are trying to defend the indefensible. Wannabees haven't helped themselves, but the rest of us in the industry should be ashamed that we have done **** all aswell. I don't hold myself blameless BTW, we all have had our part to play.

You are mixing up the oversupply problem, with the problem of P2F. Just because there are more frozen ATPL's than jobs doesn't mean that P2F becomes acceptable. It just means that people will be more competitive, that's human nature and to try and rail against that is madness. The only form of control that could have worked would have been for organisations such as BALPA to have been proactive when this started to happen. Not sit in their ivory towers and throw insults at the people who are trying to get into the industry however they can.

I went through the FI, turboprop route and I will never disagree that it is the best way. I dislike the idea of 250hr pilots getting into the RHS of a jet for a variety of reasons, but where are those FI and turboprop jobs at the moment?

An FI is basically an indentured slave and even a turbprop driver earns naff all. If I'd had the opportunity to get into a jet aged 22, then I'd have snapped it up on purely financial reasons and sod anyone else. I worked my backside off to get into this business and I'm not beholden to you or anyone else. My priority is me.

The fact is that the piloting profession is made up of people who are purely interested in their own welfare. That goes for the senior people who have done absolutely nothing other than whinge in the crew room and on here about P2F and for the wanabees who would climb over their Grandmother to get a job. It's only now that senior people are seeing their T's and C's being eroded that they are kicking up a stink. Well, boo-hoo. You had the chance to help yourself, but it wasn't taken and now you have the temerity to blame newbies for this situation...Oh please. :rolleyes:

Sometimes I'm embarrassed to call myself a pilot when I think about the self centred attitude of most members of our profession. (Including myself at times.)

P2F isn't going anywhere unless there is a concerted effort from people with some power to stop it. Either employed pilots, BALPA, Government or pax kicking off about it (though few seem to give a t*ss as long as they get a 99p flight to Marbella) might work, but asking a disparate, unconnected group such as deaperate wannabees to take the stand on this is so gob smackingly naive as to defy belief.

You might aswell try to stop a chimp from flinging poo by asking nicely.

We are all to blame for this.

[Kiltie]

I didn't know airlines nominated "senior pilots." How does one qualify for such a position?

Some of the most talented pilots I have flown with have been low houred first-job-medium-jet First Officers. Some of the turboprop First Officers I flew with, including some ex flying instructors, really struggled to perform to a good standard. The oft-perceived smugness of having been a flying instructor placing themselves on a pedastal more often than not led to them lagging behind their colleagues in ability.

So I don't concur with the dismissive attitude to newly qualified pilots getting jobs on jets - good on you if you can get it, it's not a fairytale preserve of only the "deserved experienced few" or those that have flown smaller aeroplanes first.

Kiltie
(career - turboprop/piston, jet, turboprop, turboprop, jet, turboprop, jet...)

[Say again s l o w l y]

Not every person is the same. Some people can happily move into fast jets and perform fantastically after a couple of hundred hours. Others can't. You get good new F/O's and you get some who you wonder how they actually passed a flight test.

I still maintain that a bit of experience in smaller machines would help anyone though. However, it is moot when you are talking about P2F.

When I say "senior pilots" I mean those who have been in this industry for longer than 5 minutes. They don't have to be TRE's or management pilots.

If all the TRE's had got together, all the TRI's, all the Captains, SFO's and F/O's (who had over 12 months service, to help protect them from being booted easily) had said "hang on a minute, this is a bit off." Then we might not have the problem of P2F.

The only way that would have happened in reality is through an organisation like BALPA.

I'm still incredulous that there hasn't been a proper campaign about this before. If our union (of which I am a member of) won't fight on these issues and drive the membership, then who the hell else is going to do it?

[SloppyJoe]

I am afraid to say that most people look out for themselves and so if something does not affect them directly, even though they may think it is outrageous, not much will get done.

Why would a guy who has a contract with a company and has ok conditions care that some idiot is being exploited, why try to help them in improving their conditions? If it starts trickling upwards and conditions begin to get eroded for those who joined on good t&c's I am sure people will start making some noise.

It is happening everywhere to some extent not just the low cost carriers but almost exclusively to new hires who decide to sign for crap. It is up to the individual to decide to sign or not, I have never paid for any training after the basic stuff almost everyone has too, I never accepted crap conditions although I have signed a contract far inferior to what a lot of the senior guys in the airline I work for are on. It was my choice and it is still a good deal as far as I am concerned and have no right to complain that I get less than others as I get exactly what I agreed too. There are rumors that some conditions may start to get eroded and the contract I signed is no longer being offered but there are 10,000's trying to get in on the new one. No one really cares that these guys get a far reduced contract, yes we think it is a shame but nothing is being done as it does not affect us (yet). If it does start to make the company try to reduce our benefits (mainly housing) I am sure things will escalate and our union will attempt to maintain what we signed up for. I know it seems selfish but this is the reality of it. As long as what people signed up for does not get changed no one will do much about it.

It is supply and demand, that simple. If it picks up again things will change. But it is up to the new guy looking at that contract to change things not us already employed. If demand increases new guys will not sign for crap as there will be something else, only then will this change as people will have options and not sign for thees deals.

I wish it were different and people looked out for one another more and if new contracts were offered at reduced terms the already employed pilots would stand firm and stop it. Unfortunately this is not the way of the world.

[alphaadrian]

Kash

I have a lot of time for you (as I have posted before) but Im not really sure what you want here. The market is rubbish. Hundreds of very experienced pilots are on the dole (im one of them and I know of quite a few more). And I have a type rating and am an experienced instructor. I qualified in 2003 and got my first "airline" job in 2008....5years later!

You are applying for jobs,networking,keeping current and all that good stuff. The only thing left to do now is play the waiting game...just like all the rest of us. You just have to accept that ur timing was wrong and you ended up in the worst recession we have had for a loooooong time. Frustrating it may be but theres :mad: all you can do about it. You wont get a job that doesnt exist!! I have discovered that too recently!
Experienced pilots cant help you because a lot of them are "signing on" too and the lucky ones that arent are just happy that they still gotta job!!

I however am in a slightly better position than you because our Mc Donalds actually is recruiting for part time staff!! (Im being serious)! However, at my age and having no relevant experience,not to mention being more expensive than a 16yr old..my chances, alas are limited even there.

I guess what im trying to say is that there are a lot of us in the same boat and unfortunely, there is no magic solution to getting a job, which i sort of think you are looking for on here.

As i said before to you Kash I wish you good luck. That is something a lot of us need at the moment.:ok:

[Superpilot]

....climbing the traditional ladder of experience.


Tradition died a long time ago. You know it too. One could argue, tradition died due to P2F and so the circular arguments roll on.

Regardless, at this point in time:

GA in Europe is minimal
GA employment in Europe where it exists is highly nepotistic
GA employment in Europe requires a totally unrealistic set of minimums from pilots which they ain't never going to get.
GA in the UK is dead and has been for many years

Instruction? not everyone wants to or can teach. And as for turboprops? How many do BA, easyJet, Ryanair, Thomas Cook, Thomson, Monarch et all have? Excluding the few Island Hoppers still in BA's posession, the answer is that out of nearly 500 aircraft, there are no turboprops to be found.

[Kash360]

Afternoon,

A magic solution? God I wish there was one, I really do!! But Alphaadrian I would like to thank you for your honest advice and views, I know you have been a great support and are offering your advice with best intensions and really appreciate it.


I certainly see your point that there is nothing else much left for us to do other than sit and play the waiting game. I have been on this website for many years now, mostly watching and learning from the sidelines and it wasn’t until I started getting involved with my training diaries on pprune. I see that there has been a number of posts regarding helping wannabes, and am delighted that it has shed some light on this matter, like I said before it is best for us all to work together in the same direction, helping people reach their goals or tackling any problems we face as an industry rather than having a more selfish approach. I am not accusing anyone of this, as I have found everyone one on this website helpful and encouraging. However must remember that any problem affecting our industry is our problem.


I opened this thread with best intensions I honestly did, I opened this thread to allow or seniors a platform to provide us with their wealth and knowledge and advice us in the right direction. But the truth is that our seniors are right we have nothing else to do other than wait. If you have got your licences, networked and built contacts, applied to the positions you thought were most suitable, got of your backside and tried to find food to provide for your family then there is nothing else for us to do except wait and stay current.


I myself will carry on until all hope itself fades away from my blood, I will carry on trying but not just in trying to get a job as a pilot but in any field. Some of our seniors have briefly raised the point that we must not hold out for a jet job. Believe me when I say, I and many more would be happy to just fly even a single piston because our passion was not the glamour or the money it was our passion to fly.

Kash360.

[Hernando]

I have nothing against Ryanair, honestly I don’t. However I do not think that by paying in the region of £25,000-£30,000 and still being on contract with Brookfield’s who has laid out poor working conditions for our peers. And then being thrown out for the next batch, also the fact that if you are thrown out, there are not that many 737-800 operators.

KASH,

Can you substantiate these claims? Who/how many have been thrown out? Do you know any of them, would you care to invite them to tell us their story?

No?....then this is rumour mongering.

I and many more would be happy to just fly even a single piston because our passion was not the glamour or the money it was our passion to fly.

Good luck flying a single piston.

[Callsign Kilo]

Hernando

Good luck flying a single piston.

That was uncalled for. Between you, me and the gatepost at the front of my driveway, every sod out there are well aware of the fascinating little stories that bound about regarding Ryanair and it's pilots. There is no point in getting your back up about these; just get on with your life. Some truth does lie between what Kash has to say though. The money the cadet fronts for the Ryanair SSTR is first and foremost just another revenue generator for the airline. Secondly, the BRK contract is just another way for Ryanair to save on money and remain as flexible as possible with it's workforce. I have still to be disposed off in place of a newbee though and have never found myself in a position of 'layoff' because of a new stream of cadets. However i know we hold an excess of FOs because my 750hrs last year would have equated to 900hours 3-4 years ago. Colleagues at other bases are worse off, with some guys on as low as 600 hours per year. It will only drop and may get a great deal worse when the orders from Boeing dry up and the expansion grinds to a halt. That's only if continued recruitment occurs with low rates of attrition.

Until then the only thing that is laying me off is that bloody great big Volcano. :* That's something worth getting worried about :uhoh:

[Kash360]

Evening,

I came on here and opened this thread to highlight and seek advice from our senior pilots. I had promised myself and to a certain degree our dearly appreciated moderator HWB, that this thread was not going to be about me but people like me. However I feel that I am crossing a fine line and by doing so breaking my own promise, by always reflecting on my personal circumstances and situation. And for this I would like to apologise for doing so. This thread is for the benefit of all wannabes.


I today received a PM from what I would like to describe as an influential peer from Ryanair, I must admit that after careful consideration and reviewing the PM. I must apologise to any person I have mislead or informed in my previous post regarding the airline. I was wrong on many points including the point regarding the type rating of a 737-800; in fact I have been informed that if you do hold an 800 type rating this will allow you to fly the entire range of 737. I am neither pro nor against Ryanair but feel that I may have been mislead and misinformed by the information that was provided to me. It was my own fault for not taking the appropriate steps to research in this area. And by doing so this does not give me any rights to make comments that may be untrue. DONT WORRY I HAVE NOT BEEN OFFERED A JOB AT RYANAIR, and neither have I been pressurised to make such apologies. I just don’t wish to be branded a liar by my fellow peers.


Moving on I would also like to thank many of you for your private messages offering support, encouragement and advice. As a wannabe I was not born and am sure neither was any of us knowing all that we needed regarding our industry. Neither do we pretend to, but what we do need to learn is not written in books that explain the theory of flight nor how to operate the aircraft. Of course we need to read and practise but I want to learn what isn’t in the books, things people have experienced, encountered things that have been just a memory or a past thought, so all of us may learn from it.


We have all applied, chased up CV’s, networked etc. What we haven’t done is to open ourselves to new ideas such as using our expertise in helping others. On my way to the post office I popped into my local community centre and enquired and presented the idea of starting a homework group on Saturday’s to my surprise there isn’t one set up. So I have volunteered to help set up and teach under privileged children while I find work. As always I have been applying everywhere in every industry. But as I’m sitting doing nothing then why not help my community.


Kash360.

[psmd0311]

"I never accepted crap conditions although I have signed a contract far inferior to what a lot of the senior guys in the airline I work for are on"


Sloppy

You need to educate me here, all of the companies I have worked at have a contract. The contract sets the work rules, training and pay for everyone. So if you are new and join the airline the company cant just lay a new contract out unless it is agreed on by the entire pilot workforce and then everyone follows the new contract. How are companies having different work rules, for different pilots based on date of hire? I know this has happened at Cathay, but that is china and I dont think unions are legal there, I might be wrong? HK might have different rules as well? Does this sort of thing happen in the UK? This isnt an attack on anyone, just trying to understand how is works.

If pilots are allowing management to to do this they are being short sighted and are part of the blame. But wannabes have got to stop paying for their training beyond FATPL. Its simple supply and demand, there are not enough willing to stick together and limit the supply when the industry does get better.

[g109]

Maybe if you'd made contacts, instead of heading off to Africa??? you might find things different. I realised very early on that in aviation, contacts and knowing people in the right places can get you a long way.
No-one is going to knock on your door and say 'Here's a £50k/yr job in the LHS of my 777'

Don't complain when you get nowhere. Look at what you can do correctly, rather than dwelling on the fact all is doom and gloom.

PS, I saw a sign in McDonalds looking for staff!...


absolutely correct, contacts is everything, I managed to get a job on a 320 with 200h from flight school, never paid for any ratings, now flying a wide body for a large UK company. If your age is 27, I am only 3 years older than you..
and be flexible, that could also mean moving to another country and learning another language..

because thats exactly what I did....

[g109]

Hi,

another comment, get off your arse, there are jobs around, even for low hour pilots like yourself without the need to pay for any type rating.
learn german, or at least show some willingness to learn the languge.
I know quiet a few english guys flying for airlines over in germany.
condor looking for pilots on B757, A320
Lufthansa city line recruiting on CRJ,
type rating is funded by the airline.

https://www.interpersonal.de/site/mm_jobseeker/

similar opportunities also available in SE asia, ie AirAsia, ect...

do your homework and you ll be fine.

so long

[SloppyJoe]

Not sure on rules outside hong kong but would be amazed if the reduced conditions and contracts on offer at the moment in the UK have been signed by everyone working already. Again not sure though as don't work in Europe.

[farfadet]

similar opportunities also available in SE asia, ie AirAsia, ect...

Hi G109! As far as I know, Air Asia hires national FOs only. No way if you are expat.
But correct me if I'm wrong, I would be more than happy to see that it's untrue.

[farfadet]

Another point: you seem to think that the job hunt is like a piece of cake... it isn't believe me! May be you had been lucky in the past, but what if you had to look for a job now... It might be really different.

The competition is very harsh! Starting to learn a new language in order to be lucky enough to be invited for a selection could be a waste of time. For instance, in Germany, don't you think that there are already so many german native speakers looking for a job in a German company?
As low hour pilots, we have to do be prepared for an interview. That means that we have to stay current: flying on a regular basis, revising ground school, maintaining IR skills, sending CVs, calling companies, trying to make good contacts...
I really think that starting to learn a new language might be useless. At least you could be invited for an interview, but what would happen then...?

Believe me, I'm working on trying to get a job every single day! It's not as easy as you seem to think.:=. It is exhausting. Meanwhile, we must also earn money, whatever the job is.
And I know a bunch of mates who are doing exactly the same. We are in the same boat, struggling to find something and even to fly on a regular basis.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing I've been able to do to so far to take that first step on the aviation career ladder is:
- getting an Instructor Rating and getting a job as an instructor thanks to good contacts. At least, it gives me the chance to build my hours in a very useful manner.
- make good and useful contacts who could help me to find a job latter when the market will be better for us (wanabees)... hopefully...

[sam8808]

similar opportunities also available in SE asia, ie AirAsia, ect...

Hi G109! As far as I know, Air Asia hires national FOs only. No way if you are expat.
But correct me if I'm wrong, I would be more than happy to see that it's untrue.

More to the point, they're also not hiring inexperienced guys (as far as I'm aware).

[Kash360]

Hey,

I would like to say that I have a flying job; I would like to say that I have a beautiful wife and a house to go with it, but the truth is there is a thin line between heaven and here, and I for one am here!!

Weeks have gone by checking my emails on my phone every five minutes. Praying that an email comes through, other than ones trying to get me to buy Viagra pills. However I am now working at a car wash place which keeps me occupied for most of the day. You know what the best part of my day is now? Meeting other people other than seeing the disappointed faces of my family all day long. Working at a car wash or scraping chewing gum of toilet doors doesn’t matter one little bit to me. I don’t care about pride, reputation or what people think I’m not ashamed. What I do care about is standing back onto my own two feet knowing that I’m not the useless s**t my job centre think I am. I will never in my life go back to the job centre and sign on; I will work until I have lost all feelings in my fingers.


My degree in engineering is now nothing more than another piece of paper within my draw along with my licence reminding me of my misfortunes. I still have hope and still apply every day but by God it takes it out of you, chipping away at your hope and strength day by day.


Not long ago I was offered a flying position, I even was sent a contract but as yet nothing has come of it, i try calling, emailing and texting nearly every day but never get through to anyone. It hurts not having a pilot job but it hurts even more when you have been offered one but nothing comes of it.


At the homework club that I started a few weeks back, I met a student that was questioning me about what I do as in occupation. I was ashamed to tell him that i was a pilot who also has an aeronautical engineering degree and years of experience in airline operations. I had to respond to the student with a simple answer of “:mad: all”.


I have been pondering the idea of returning to Africa in about 3-4 weeks time, but this time to the North of Africa. I would be covering more ground for a longer period of time if I do go. However was wondering if anyone knew what the minimum entry jobs in countries such Algeria, Libya, Chad and Niger required or even if my JAA licence meant anything there? If you could help with these questions I would be very grateful.

Many thanks in advance.

Kash360.

[PosClimb]

You have an engineering degree, pilot training worth a lot of $$$, and you work at a car wash.

Look on the bright side... it can only be up from here... you can't go any lower unless you decide to knock off a 7-11...

[no sponsor]

I've seen too many guys piss their lives away waiting for an elusive job in the flight deck by working in jobs which they think will somehow get them into the flight deck. Typically, these are guys with ATPLs working in ops, flight safety or dispatchers. Not one of them has ever been offered a job in my airline, and certainly not now given the lack of recruitment. The only chance you have of a job today is either through Ryanair, or via CTC onto a short-term contract. Flying in Africa would be a great experience, but you need to do more research before just jumping onto an aircraft to the Congo in search of a job.

Personally, I would get started on another career. Don't waste your life chasing a flight deck job.

[Uncle Wiggily]

Kash360: Many of the Africa flying jobs, especially the ones with the UN, are contracted through a handful of South African operators: NAC, Balmoral, Naturelink, Solenta and a few others. Going to where these companies are performing their contracts will not prove fruitful. You need to talk to them at their HQ in South Africa. The problem is that these companies prefer to hire S. Africans with S. African licenses. Also, most of these companies are not hiring.

The truth is that the way the industry hires and trains its pilots has changed completely in the last 2 to 3 years. It's all about pay to play now. The truth is that unless you have a family member or extremely good connection, then it will be difficult to get a job. The other option is to get a Type Rating and pay for 300 hours line training and then apply somewhere. I know man, this is messed up, but this is the cold reality that is called an "aviation career."

Go do an internship at Boeing or Airbus with your degree and make a load of money and buy a damn plane! A huge part of breaking into this industry has nothing to do with skill....it is simply luck and a huge supply of money.

You think the global recession is treating the industry porly now? Just wait until Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal default on their loans and the Euro collapses. That will make this recession look like a picnic.

Damn it. Get the hell out of the carwash and seriously look at putting your damn engineering degree to work! You can fly....it does not have to be a career. Work hard in aeronautical engineering - make money - buy a plane - hell...you can even buy a pilot shirt and hat if you want. Forget about the pilot career...for the time being. It kills me to see you neglecting your engineering background!

[Grass strip basher]

Unless you got a 1st or 2:1 from a very good university I don't imagine it is exactly "easy" to get a job in an aeronautical engineering related field at the moment..... believe it or not it is not just the pilot recruitment market that is in recession. :uhoh:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Echo the point about not working *near* the flightdeck if your aim is to sit in it.

It seems logical that being a dispatcher or cabin crew or Operations officer or cabin crew might help you make the leap into the flightdeck with your CPL.

Rubbish.

What really happens is that your manager knows you're less likely to leave and less likely to rock the boat than your colleague because you have your eyes on a higher prize. You end up working harder and being more highly prized IN YOUR PRESENT ROLE and thus worse off than were you just some random Joe applying for a flightdeck job.

In then years of working in a rapidly expanding airline I know of only 4 cabin crew who have made it into the flightdeck and only one of them was an internal appointment.

Go get the best paid job you can. Use the money to stay current or to save for a SSTR. If that means selling insurance over the phone then go do that. Stay well clear of airports.

WWW

[Right Way Up]

There seems to be a perception today that people are owed a job because of the effort they have put in. Many times in the 70/80/90s we have had crisis that meant newly trained pilots had to sit on the sidelines for many years waiting their opportunity. In fact it was arguably worse because of the large number of military pilots joining the market. In the early 90s there were far more trained & experienced pilots on the market then there are now, and many of us had to be creative & patient. Nowadays experienced pilots are in a worse position than TYROs as there are many who are willing to sell their soul. I find it unbelievable that those people now who are struggling to get a job and want to short circuit the system (which is an indictment of buy today, and worry about paying for it tomorrow), now expect those people who have done their penance and were patient to risk their hard won job. (whilst their T & Cs are being attacked because of the new source of cheap labour.)

To answer the OPs question, my advice would be to get into an airline job that puts you close to the action & where you can make good contacts. (especially those turboprop airlines which in the past have taken on their own guys into the RHS.) Good Luck!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The game has changed. The old rules have been torn up. The world is different now.

Few current airline pilots yet perceive this and pass it on but it is true.


The old world valued a few years spent in Ops or in the Cabin. Building experience as an instructor or as a piston charter guy. Passing exams first time. Training at a reputable school. Having a solid CV packed with good school exam grades and commendable extra-curricular commendables.

The new world values your ability to pay tens of thousands in type rating fees and the willingness to sign employment contracts offering zero-hours and no security of tenure.

Thats all it values.

The RHS is a profit centre for some airlines. Ryanair started it. Others have followed. Eventually all will do so. Commercial reality dictates it to be so.

The well armed Wannabe in the new world therefore needs but three weapons. Cash enought to pay for CPL IR MCC ATPL + SSTR. An ability to move anywhere in Europe and not set down particularly strong roots there. A willingness to work like hell during the summer and work at something else during the lean winter.

If you can meet those conditions, and some can, then the water is lovely.

If you can't then run away from these freezing cold arctic seas.


WWW

[mad_jock]

Just to add if you any good in Ops it will be a cold day in hell before the ops director will release you from there.

In some ways training up an ops staff member is a bigger pain in the arse although cheaper than a pilot. If they then have the right "head" on them that means they are good at it, as a resource you are far better in the company as a Ops controller than pilot. They have suitable candidates coming out of there ears for the RHS. A good ops controller that can keep there cool and still have attention to detail and spot that a cunning plan is going to cause even more issues in 1/2/5days/2weeks time, worth thier weight in gold.

[Kash360]

The truth is and it has been echoed many times before that the industry is on it’s knees, and Europe for sure will be the last to bounce back from all this mess. Everything I have done in my life apart from two jobs has been within aviation. I was hoping that when it comes down to the crunch people may see that he has dedicated his life to this industry. In 1999 I took my first paid job as a baggage handler, in 2000 I became a passenger services agent, in 2001 I became passenger services supervisor, and 2001 also went into dispatch and in 2003 went to airline operations. What I’m trying to get at is that my CV on paper is 100% aviation and thought that it would help. I’m not complaining because I enjoyed every minute of it. The reason I left briefly left the aviation world was to utilise my degree, and making a quick bob or two.



Some of you say don’t go back to Africa, some say don’t go into non flying aviation and some say go back to engineering. You are my seniors and seniors to many of us, we appreciate your advice whatever it maybe. But I wash cars for a living; I scrub, polish, dry and vacuum cars. I can’t get a job in engineering, I have tried everywhere. Someone said that unless you have a 1st or a 2:1 from a good university it doesn’t mean anything. Well I got a 2:1 from UMIST which before it joined the Manchester University to become the University of Manchester was ranked 3rd in the country.



I don’t want a job in the RHS of a shinny jet, because I don’t deserve it just because I have a blue book. I saved every penny not because I want to fly a 747,320 but just because I enjoy flying if that means flying a single engine piston then so be it. Some of you and I am forever greatful have provided me with some leads, which have unfortunately come to nothing but I am forever great for your help and support.



I have been trying to do some research about going back to Africa but this time to the North. However my homework seems to be harder than I thought. I just want to say that I for one am here to stay and am in for the long haul. It may not be this year it may not be the next but one day I will get a flying job, and once I get there and find out that I hate it. Then at least I know I climbed the mountain and will then find something else in life to do.

Kash360.

[Uncle Wiggily]

Then at least I know I climbed the mountain and will then find something else in life to do.


Well, I guess the CTC cadet program's motto is: why climb the mountain, when you can buy a ticket and take the tram straight to the top? :)

[johns7022]

A real man has to acknowledge that life holds no promises, only death at the end...

So while life is short, and god is on vacation, the man of action goes out and takes what his his...a life full of adventure and a ship full of bounty..

As long as somewhere in the world there is a millionare with a jet....my name will be on the paycheck, and his daughter will warm my bed....

I am a Citation pilot, and that's how we roll. ;)

[redsnail]

Yeah mate, but it's still a Citation. :E

Ok, the Citation X is pacey.

[Cabair351]

D A N G! Kash360,

If you'd spent as much time writing those mammoth posts to finding work i am sure you'd have something now...

But joking aside i really hope you and every other wannabe finds work.

All the very best to all of you.

[Grass strip basher]

Kash360 for :mad: sake stop wallowing in self-pity... the world isn't fair and doesn't owe you a living.... (despite what nooo labour might have told you). Just man up and move on. If you want to stick at trying to find a job in aviation fine but posting c**p like that last post certainly won't help.
Is there any reason to think that taking the job in Algeria will help get you onto a flight deck? is it attached to a flying school that will give you hours or train you up as a flying instructor? Does it pay more than what you are making? If not what is the point?..... why do you think teaching English to pilots will make your CV more attractive to an airline? :ugh:

[clunk1001]

"going mad but this is just a part of being a pilot is about isn’t it? Seeing if you have the patience and will power..."

No. Frankly. It isnt. Its more about growing a pair! and getting a :mad: job.

No flying job?....get a engineering job!

How many engineering graduates are sitting writing similar posts on PErune right now? I'll tell you....none, cos most of them are WORKING.

Here, I'll tell you what to type into Google ..."Graduate Engineer Manchester". Better still, here’s the link. Just press it.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGLL_en-GBGB367GB367&&sa=X&ei=nkAPTLf7I5T40wSxx8CKDg&ved=0CBgQvwUoAQ&q=graduate+engineer+manchester&spell=1 (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGLL_en-GBGB367GB367&&sa=X&ei=nkAPTLf7I5T40wSxx8CKDg&ved=0CBgQvwUoAQ&q=graduate+engineer+manchester&spell=1)

220,000 hits. That'll keep you occupied until your next car washing shift.
Sorry Kash, I don’t usually berate anybody, but you need a good kick up the ar$e. You’ve got your fATPL – which is a lot more than many people have! You will get a flying job, but you have to accept the fact that it might not be today, or tomorrow!
You're in the same boat as 100s of others. The difference is about getting off your ar$e and doing something PRODUCTIVE with your time! Like Haiku.

Your morbid ramblings,
in spite of their eloquence,
become tedious.

[Kash360]

Sorry guys, have deleted my previous post as it was all about self piety and was written early hours of the morning. Plus the fact that writting things like That wouldn't help me or anyone else. Again sorry to all!!

[M80]

I've read your threads on and off as your African thread is in a part of the World I know a few people.

Have you any idea of the amount of guys who do exactly what you do? Not just go and camp for a month, but go and stay out there for six months or twelve months.

I'm sick of hearing "I even went to Africa!". Hoo bloody rah! One month on the Dark Continent does not make you an exception. Bleating on just shows your attitude is that you feel you've pulled out all the stops when I've seen hundreds of guys trekking through multiple countries hunting down jobs for months.

What also surprises me are the amount of people posting about how amazed they are you've gone to the ends of the Earth to find a job. I'll let you in on a secret. Guys were treading that route purely as an adventure, long before the likes of you decided it may be the answer to finding a job when none were available at home.

Plenty more kids who went there and stuck it out, and got the job. Africa is a vast continent. But funnily enough, people know each other throughout Africa in the aviation industry due to the nature of contract work.

You got a hint of a job and then it fell through. That's life. I'm sure you made a good few contacts at the company and if they have another opportunity for you they'll contact you? as far as has been posted you can't PIC in Zambia with less than 1000 hours, so imagine that may have had something to do with things rather than a nefarious company stringing you along for a friday afternoon jape? I'm sure if they read PPRuNe though they'll not be calling.

[Potcake]

I went to Turkey and paid for my line training hours, since then our airline has stopped doing this but I am 2 years down the line and still with them. Theres no shame in paying for hours and I re-couped the money in 5 months. And with a Turkish airline you rack up the hours.
My advise is IF Pegasus are still offering training
Pegasus Flight Academy | Courses (http://www.pegasusflightacademy.com/en/flypgsflightacademy.courses.detay.asp?tur=1)

...try that link. Then go for it. Timing is key, the application process will take 2 months and course I dont know but time it to start on the line in the summer and you will work 100+ hrs a month. If your good enough they will need you for sure, and it will be hard work. But if you want a job its the only way. Or you can say I'm not paying and be jobless 1 year down the line and someone that paid is working and paid off the cost. I dont work for Pegasus, I just know from knowing pilots from there that you would work bloody hard there and so a job should be on offer when you finish. Which is key.

[Arabian Mustang]

@MD80,

Thank you for that post, I've been wanting to tell this guy the same thing for a long time but refrained since I thought I may not be in such a position to comment on him.

I was in the neighbouring country when kash came down to maun and I came to know about him since I used to fly a lot into maun and through pprune. The biggest and probably the most horrendous mistake he did was give maun a lot more of publicity in pprune and that gave him a lot of unnecessary competition. I was told by the guys who actually managed to get hired this season that when he arrived there were only 10 pilots looking for work but a week after that, with all the adventures he was describing from his laptop, the number jumped up to 30.. Pilots with much better qualifications and character were available for the companies to choose from.

Anyway, what I intend to tell you kash is that you have to stop advertising yourself in pprune, as so far as I can see, its only working against you.

Please do not feel offended by this post.:)

Cheers

[A320rider]

Am is right, after you got the job you can say where you work.

I am in contact with a company for a 320 job, will I tell you it? no!

[Kash360]

Afternoon,

Sorry not been able to post sooner, have just been run of my feet working out in Algeria. To the above posts I couldnt agree with you more in terms of people travelling to the Africa to for work long before I was born. All I did was document my time spent in Maun and Zambia. To allow wannabes like myself to read about the difficult times and hoops that we must jump through to get our first job. It was also written so wannabes could see that it wasn't as easy as our flight schools had made it out to be regarding getting a job. Also yes there were about 10 people looking for work when I arrived in Maun but just take a second to think, I went to Maun when we were at the peak of the recession. Which meant that people came to Maun when they could not find work in there own countries. Speaking to all the people that arrived to Maun had never heard or read about my thread aprt from one person who had booked his tickets before I had arrived.

I'm sorry if I have given you the wrong impression, but my intensions were in the right place and my reasons for documenting my journey was also for the right reasons. Of course I cannot deny that I have had some great feedback and leads and many well wishes from people. However I can not see the harm in receiving well wishes or leads.

I spent 2 months looking for work and I dont regret a single moment. I went back to the UK with more than I hoped for, plus it was an oppertunity to learn more about my attitude towards other people and not taking simple things for granted.

I am back on the African continent again trying to find work, but this time while I am working teaching technical aviation English to pilots.

Again if I have upset or offended anyone for documenting my travels I apologise. I meant no harm or disrespect.

[SloppyJoe]

Having worked in Algeria for six months as a pilot I can tell you something that will save you a bit of time. With your hours and your passport you will not get a job flying a plane in Algeria.

[Kash360]

Hello again,

As always I hope all is well and good, firstly I must apologise for the lack of postings during recent months. I did not really want to come on here and loath in self pity, I have recently returned to the UK and have been occupied with a course which will allow me to return back to Algeria if I don’t find any flying jobs soon.

Also have had my ME/IR renewed which is a big weight of my shoulders. Algeria was overall a great experience and a chance to get my hands dirty even for a little while. However as the above poster has said don’t look in Algeria for flying jobs. There isn’t any and if there was you would have to be Algerian. Can’t believe how fast I have used up my saving from Algeria, paying for the course, accommodation and the renewal.
I was recently invited to my first interview for a flying position which I didn’t secure, but either way am glad that I was invited a chance to get an insight into the process. I am now in the process of going of making a new plan of action, to try and get my first big break. I have spent the last couple of days travelling to some airfields to hand my CV around. I was thinking about going over to Indonesia to try and find work there but not too sure. I have been applying for engineering positions aswell.

I was wondering if you would be as kind as to advice me of what I should do next, as I feel like I have covered all my bases?

Many thanks in advance.

[cyrilroy21]

Well since you are so fond of africa....

Try this

Air Nigeria - AN Careers (http://www.myairnigeria.com/en/ng/jobs/pilot.html)

Dont know any other details but give it a shot

Good Luck :ok:

[RAPA Pilot]

You know what Kash mate, I stayed up till 4 in the morning reading this tread in my hotel room. If I was in a position to offer you an interview, which I'm not, I would. I like you manner in your writing.

I don't post very often on here, more a browser realy, WWW is right in what he says, the industry has changed drasticly and for the worse.

Heres what I would like in a newby FO. Someone who isn't cocky and thinks he's the best pilot since sliced bread, some one who can pick up my mistakes but points them out in a diplomatic fashion, (and doesn't worry if the Captains spelling and gramma isn't what it should be),someone who will listen and learn and strives to improve, someone I can rely on to do a good job everytime with out me having to put a rocket up'em, but most of all, someone who I can sit next to for 4 hours and spend 4 days down route who's company I can relate to and will stand their round from time to time.

This isn't about good pilots or bad pilots it about understanding human interaction, team work, and diplomacy. If any of that is forign to you then go and be a flying instructor where you will learn to deal with people from all walks of life and you will learn a lot about yourself. I recommend it to all pilots how ever well qualified they are.

RAPA...

[Kash360]

Hey Guys,
Firstly a big thank you to Rapa and Cyrilroy for posting and providing me with a lead. I had applied to Air Nigeria within an hour of seeing the post. I have recently been advised by more people than against into doing an instructors rating. I am currently looking into this further, however was wondering if anyone could please give me some indication of if there is much recruitment happening within this area.


I have been invited back to Algeria and would be delighted to go back, but knowing that I have a full licence I feel that I am wasting my time doing so. I feel that I could be applying for more positions worldwide. I have spent all morning for the fourth time applying to every airline in the world using Wikipedia. I’m grateful of people saying that they would hire me if they had any influence. I have been on this rollercoaster ride for over a year now trying to find work. However I still have the determination and courage to travel this path instead falling out like some. Sure I feel like my courage is dented at times however as someone on here said once. It’s a battle for the strongest, and only the weak will drop out. Even though I don’t agree completely with this as some people drop of this road for personal reasons.


I just can’t get my head around this industry; I have spent my entire working life apart for 10 months in the aviation industry. From hanger cleaning, baggage handler all the way to designing power supply systems for space shuttles. I always thought that if my CV was full of aviation related jobs I had it would favour me when I applied for flight crew positions.


I don’t regret for single second travelling to Africa living in a tent looking for a flying position. I don’t even regret the number of times I have travelled around the country sleeping in my car visiting airfields. It has all made me stronger.


However I was wondering and to a certain degree pleading for your help. I know you don’t know me and I also know that you may be thinking that “this is just how thing go”. But if you find it in your hearts please would you guide me on the right track, it does not have to be leads or contact just some advice of what I could or should be doing. I appreciate everyone’s views, I’m not the only one on this journey there are thousands like me and we look up to our seniors which are you for help.


Please PM if you feel that it would be of some use.


Kash360.

[chadkhan]

Jeez you are a whiny cry-baby, are´nt you? Did you possibly think it was going to be that easy to find a job? Sometimes low-hour guys get jobs without having to pay2fly over pilots with thousands of hours.
But whining does not help. If you´ve got to stock shelves then stop your crying and stock away. That way you won´t have to scrounge off your parents anymore.
A flying job after flight training is not a right, it is a privilege.
Until times are better guys will pay2fly if that is what they think they should do and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
If we want to stop this practice, with which I see nothing wrong, then wait until times are better and companies are hard pressed for pilots, which according to all respectable organizations will be around 2012 or so, the airlines will have no other choice then to pay for TR+LT.
While there is a financial crunch and airlines are cutting back on expenses, they are looking for guys who are self-sponsored.
This is the new model, ladies and gentlemen. I suggest we adapt to it or get out of the way.

[Kash360]

Hey guys,

Firstly welcome to PPrune Chadkhan, I see this is your first post above, and wish you have many more to come in the future. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart in regards to your views that you have shared with us all.

However I feel as if your views maybe based on the industry model from 2009, and so taking that into account I would like to welcome you to 2010 where we are all currently living. I couldn’t agree more with your thoughts with regard to P2F. I too find this scheme to be disturbing for our industry and I’m sure many would agree with you there.


I do however find that the industry is improving for the better, captains not approving of this scheme and neither helping the industry t+c’s. I must correct you in a few matters though as I feel I may have given you and many others the wrong impression.


I haven’t asked my parents for a single penny towards my training, in fact I paid my own university fees and accommodation while I was there. Also whining?? Well if you read my previous post ( the one you kindly misinterpreted) You will find that I’m not whining. I’m grateful for the experience I am going through looking for work, never sitting at home waiting for companies to call me instead travelling halfway around the world looking for food.


Yes I agree that I do come on here sometimes looking for help and advice. I for one have no shame in asking for here asking our experienced pilots for help. I can only imagine that many of them went through what we are going through. They know this road they know which is the best approach. We must respect their views, just like I have respected yours.


We are here to learn, not from books but from people who have been doing what they do for years. Experience trumps theory every time my friend. Again If you or anyone else feel that I am stepping out of line by voicing my views please correct me. I’ll be the first to put my hands up and say I was wrong.


But again, if any of our seniors feel that they can guide us in the right direction, please do there are thousands of us here willing to listen.


Kash360.

[chadkhan]

I would say I am quite current. I got my license last year after completing MCC but I´m still here and I would say very current, indeed.
I have a TR rating too and a contract. My dad flew for major airlines for 35 years but fortunately, for my own self worth, I stuck it out and did this on my own, without his help. I owe my flight school a lot of credit, my instructors, all the people I´ve befriended along the way, as well, who have helped guide me along.
Its just not worth stressing about, that´s all. The thing to think about is that as long as commercial aviation has existed there have been out of work pilots.
P2F is just part of the evolution and what some captains don´t like is really their problem. Obviously no serious company will accept an incompetent pilot, even if he paid out of his own pocket. There are thousands of highly competent pilots out there with enough hunger to pay for it out of pocket and go absolutely anywhere.
So let´s just chill with the quick judgments, shall we?