Generals told to travel 2nd class [Archive]

Dengue_Dude

28th Mar 2010, 17:33

You may have gathered that I'm not a fan of our military senior management, BUT this is patently ridiculous.

Travelling time for senior staff is almost invariably working time - if the money grabbing, self centred political slimeballs can have it, then leave this (one of the last) privilege alone, it's short sighted, naive and downright rude.

I am SO finding all flavours of politicians to be worthy of less regard than pond life, words almost fail me.

This day and age is hopefully the nadir of regard for people of politics. I sincerely hope that they can't sink any further.

It's such a shame that the ballot paper won't have a box for 'None of the Above'.

DC10RealMan

28th Mar 2010, 17:49

I seem to remember that in the early days of New Labour that there was a plan to introduce the "None of the above" option to the ballot paper. I see that it has been quietly dropped. I wonder why??

vecvechookattack

28th Mar 2010, 18:23

All armed forces personnel must now sit in standard class on trains and planes, whatever their rank.

Not entirely correct. Premier Economy is available as is Business class if your schedule and the flight time dictate otherwise.

MadsDad

28th Mar 2010, 18:31

I seem to remember that in the early days of New Labour that there was a plan to introduce the "None of the above" option to the ballot paper. I see that it has been quietly dropped. I wonder why??

According to the papers he should be appearing on a ballot paper near you, if you live in Chingford. 50-year-old Adam Osen has apparently changed his name by UK Deed Poll yo 'Mr. Above' with forenames 'Non', 'Of' and 'The', with the intention of standing as an independent candidate in Chingford and Woodford Green.

Story here:- CHINGFORD: Odds offered on name-change candidate (From East London and West Essex Guardian Series) (http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/4858827.CHINGFORD__Bookies_offer_odds_on_None_Of_The_Above_t o_win_General_Election/)

vecvechookattack

28th Mar 2010, 18:54

Unsurprisingly, I note that it will not apply to MPs

I'm not sure Sir Nicholas Winterton would agree

Herod

28th Mar 2010, 19:11

Hey guys, calm down. The senior officer has only given thirty years or so service to the country, probably (almost certainly) been under fire, and faced many dangers and hardships. The newly-elected MP has served the country for thirty minutes, and the greatest danger has been a heckler at a constituency meeting. Of course the MP should have first-class.

SirToppamHat

28th Mar 2010, 19:19

I'll look forward to seeing this in the next issue of Prime Minister's Regulations for the Royal Air Force.

A couple of weeks ago I undertook a journey on the East Coast mainline. Open Return tickets were:

1st Class £325
Standard £225

I am (was?) entitled to travel 1st Class, and did so, but by booking 2 x single tickets in advance, planning carefully and accepting a degree of risk, I did so for £86.

Next time, I think I will leave it later, travel Standard and let Gordon manage the risk.

By the way, I can't see too many generals (or airships) travelling by train Standard Class.

STH

gijoe

28th Mar 2010, 19:28

This little gem, with the abolishment, sorry, realignment of Overseas IE with UK IE and other various adjustments, indicates that the thin end of the wedge is well and truly embedded. The hammering will now start in earnest.

Those that were entitled to 1st Class travel, whether you like it or not, have now, I believe, lost it forever. No Defence Minister of any colour is going to allow money to be spent in what might be perceived by the Treasury as a backward step...'and anyway when you were all travelling Standard it didn't make any difference!'

There will be much more to come...and mostly by stealth or trickery.

:cool:

Jimlad1

28th Mar 2010, 20:46

"Those that were entitled to 1st Class travel, whether you like it or not, have now, I believe, lost it forever. No Defence Minister of any colour is going to allow money to be spent in what might be perceived by the Treasury as a backward step...'and anyway when you were all travelling Standard it didn't make any difference!'"

Sorry, but as one of those affected by this, I'm finding some of the reaction across the media and t'interweb a bit hysterical. People are always slagging off the MOD to save money, claiming we waste it. A PR option is taken to save a lot of money, rather than having to cut a capability, and people start getting upset.

I've seen a lot of righteous indignation today, but no one seems to say what is really being lost beyond a nicer seat. The journey time is the same length, and sure its a nicer space, but does this really affect your work that much?

Just remember that a few years ago MOD was in the media firing line for not stripping people of 1st class travel, now it is in the media firing line FOR stripping people of first class travel!

West Coast

28th Mar 2010, 20:48

Iffin you want the best leading, you need to pay them accordingly. This applies to benefits as well.

Lou Scannon

28th Mar 2010, 21:45

I think that the generals should check their contract of employment (or whatever passes for one in the armed services)

My bet is that first class travel is contractual for those officers and cannot be taken away by one of the freeloading MP's, even from a Scottish village.

Any legal action in this matter could be worth thinking about. It wouldn't cost too much for all of them to chip in with a decent lawyer.

beerdrinker

29th Mar 2010, 06:20

I bet the senior civil servants have not lost this perk. (Sir Humphrey won't allow it). You can imagine it on a MOD team on a trip: Civil Servants in First, Senior Officers in Standard.

Chris Kebab

29th Mar 2010, 07:30

You've lost your bet there beerdrinker, we were briefed that it's pan-MOD - civilian and military. The MOD civvies are getting shafted routinely as well these days.

Pelikanpete

29th Mar 2010, 07:44

It would be nice to think that the people who make the most important decisions that affect soldier's, sailor's and airmen's lives might arrive at travel destinations reasonably refreshed and having been sitting in an environment where they can get some work done. It also goes without saying that if on arrival they have not been able to read their briefs properly or simply just make the wrong decision, it might cost the taxpayer millions. There is more at stake than the paltry difference in cost of a train ticket.

It sounds very much like someone deliberately giving two fingers to the military and is pretty standard these days for a Gov/Military relationship based upon mutual contempt.

FantomZorbin

29th Mar 2010, 07:56

If I remember correctly, in the Civil Service HEO (as was) and above went 1st class. As the CS would have you believe, HEO was 'equivalent' to Sqn Ldr/Major/Lt Cdr!

Wrathmonk

29th Mar 2010, 08:31

Jimlad1 - with you on this one. Damned if you do, damned if you don't!:ugh:

As for the "they need to work" surely most, if not all, the work that our Generals (and Service equivalents) work on must be at least at RESTRICTED level and therefore shouldn't be worked on in a public environment (regardless of class of travel!). And cutting the header and footer off doesn't declassify a document. Wasn't an Admiral 'bubbled' to the press/police when another passenger (in first class ....) read the document over said Admirals shoulder and realised there was more to it than the 'unclassified' document it purported to be.

How about they catch the earlier train, be grateful for the time away from the office (it's not as if there aren't plenty of other starred officers who can hold the fort!), enjoy the view, read the paper and then do any pre-work for the meeting in the correct environment.

The B Word

29th Mar 2010, 08:48

Wrathmonk

enjoy the view

In "standard class" - What planet are you on?!!!

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00785/crowded-train_785594c.jpg

Most of my experiences of "standard class" are sitting next to, or opposite, the individual below, who is normally accompanied by a 6pack of McEwans!!!

http://wdsc00116.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/8ace.jpg

Hence, I normally take my car for most meetings. :ok:

The B Word

Wrathmonk

29th Mar 2010, 08:55

B Word

Granted - but who was talking about the view outside (I know its going to snow again soon but summer clothes will be out in force soon ...:E)! But then I would also suggest that they (the Generals) won't be travelling at rush hour on commuter trains.

If they want to work then take the car (& driver!). Used to have a 2* in MB who would insist on a car to take him to meetings within London - wouldn't use public transport regardless of class :oh:

And I trust you shared a McEwans with your new 'friend'!

Crromwellman

29th Mar 2010, 09:02

I am now a retired civil servant but I do want to dispel this myth about miilitary equivalents. They are there for accommodation and messing purposes only. They do NOT, repeat NOT, imply and job equivalence. Any one who peddles that line is talking "round objects."

I was entitled to first class travel during my civil service career but not in my military one. When travelling I used common sense - a little used commodity these days!! When travelling from London to Farnborough I would use Standard Class because I spent longer commuting to London in Standard Class. On longer journeys I would use First because I could get work done. Contrary to popular belief there is work at unclassified levels that emanates from MoD and a lot of this could be worked on in a train. You could also read magazines and journals that related to your work.

On another tack, I also used Easyjet to get to places in Northern England and Scotland because it was cheaper than rail and by judicious use of flights I could do business in a, admittedly long, single day and thus save the Ministry the cost of an overnight stay.

The trouble is that some people get very precious about their allowances and do not think "what is the best solution" mainly because the Treasury is always looking for an excuse to cut anything, except for the Treasury

Tankertrashnav

29th Mar 2010, 12:14

Just been announced on The World at One - along with losing the right to claiming mortgage interest, MP's are to lose the right to First Class rail travel. Remains to be seen if this really happens , of course!

Blacksheep

29th Mar 2010, 12:43

Travelling on trains? When I was at Northolt, Their Airships travelled by 'private' jet operated by 32 Squadron. For short hops, avoiding the traffic jams on Western Avenue, CinC Strike had his own Whirlwind and CDS had his very own Gazelle. We could always make them march around to save them walking, I suppose. :rolleyes:

D120A

29th Mar 2010, 13:14

It seemed to me that every time I got promoted in the RAF, the perks retreated by one rank and continued to elude me. I am not surprised that first class rail travel has finally been denied even to the most senior officers.

When I left and went into industry (and still, indirectly, working for the government), it seemed that the perks came down to meet me. However, while the many good times I remember in the Service rarely had anything to do with the terms and conditions of employment, I have to say that the good times in civilian work were seldom due to the sheer magic of the people.

beerdrinker

29th Mar 2010, 14:47

Oops CK. Dosh on its way to Help the Heroes.

Compressorstall

29th Mar 2010, 19:01

I don't want to have to spend my time in cattle class having to sit next to a General or Airship.
Perks are not a popular thing these days, and it has been made worse by the press making our senior leadership to be remote and out of touch. One of my subordinates told me that it seemed pointless trying for promotion as there was nothing to reward you for putting in that extra work, other than more long hours and little recognition. The Armed Forces have some really great people, but the best way to get rid of them is to show how little you value them.
We shouldn't harp on about rail travel, the real issue is respect for what we do. Perhaps this has been forced onus due to cost saving, but surely saving money on train fares won't make much difference against some of the massively overspent headline procurement projects. The Army may end up with FRES and the Navy with its carriers, but they will be no use if there are no motivated men and women to operate them.

NutLoose

29th Mar 2010, 20:10

Look on the bright side, they are less likely to lose their laptops full of secrets if they are having to stand outside the Khazi whilst holding it for their journey...... should imagine as with MP's they should be able to upgrade at their own expense if required,

Odd thing though, this is a "cost cutting" exercise, but as the rail network the trains run on is already owned by the UK taxpayer and those companies providing the service as carriers on the said network in the UK pay the Government to carry the said passengers on it, were is it actually saving money? a simple 1st class rail pass would have served the same as we are already funding the seat anyway.

enginesuck

29th Mar 2010, 20:27

I think its disgusting, when I got promoted to Cpl, the most satisfying aspect was that I dont have to be a T-Bar operative any longer... and when/if I get my third, I look forward to the day I can wear overalls but not really expect to get them dirty... Perhaps Generals / Admirals / Air officers would feel better about the whole thing if everybody else had to bunk the train sitting in the bog ?