Self Sponsored A320 Type Rating & Line Training - J Curd

[shagrat]

As it seems there are tentative signs of recovery, albeit pretty slim I have been researching what to do to advance my flying career and am intrigued by the advert with A320typerating.com. Consequently, I registered my interest with them and have been informed that for the right people there are contracts available, they have secured work for 11 out of 15 this year, which, at 73%, is a good achievement. They do have testimonials from the people that have been successful so it seems that the scheme is fairly genuine.

IF and before I proceed I need to know what I'm investing in and whether I will actually stand any chance of success, so, for those of you having purchased a type rating and line flying I would be most interested in your opinion.

More importantly, I would be interested in hearing from those who have completed the scheme and not secured work. What is being done for you? Have you been asked/would you be prepared to provide a testimonial, despite not yet securing a job?

Considerations:
Was the training well organised?
How many fail the course? (Why?)
Is there good support from the FTO
Hidden costs?
How were you perceived by your peers where you trained?
Jobs? (they seem to have good contacts, who/what/where?)

I know these schemes are not highly regarded by many, but I would appreciate if comments about the rights or wrongs of this type of training are kept out of this particular thread.

My aim is to determine whether I should commit or not.

Happy to accept pm's if you prefer to remain anonymous.

[Piltdown Man]

If you need borrow money to do this, you need your head examining. Living, even cheaply away from home, running a car, eating etc. all requires cash. Cash which you won't have and which will be running away from you faster than you can run towards it. The wretched clowns who pay for their ratings and line flying will be piddling in their own beds - as well as mine. Why, because in your eagerness to get employment you have shown that you are void of any professional integrity as you are prepared to work for LESS than NOTHING. You also will be driving down the terms and conditions for everyone in the profession because prosperity of those on the top of the pile depends on those on the bottom. Working for nothing devalues all of our jobs. I can almost predict you future as well. You'll be bidding for a Command, in cash!

P2F Schemes also put other F/O's out of work because of you are prepared to prostitute yourself to get get a job. That's NOT a job, it's an expensive pleasure ride where the pleasure is all the company's.

Then there is the safety aspect. Do really expect me and my family to fly in an aircraft where the F/O can't afford to live properly? To do this job, you have to have proper rest, food, diet and exercise. You are not able to obtain any of this if you are living in your car, a tent or a crash pad. And should you take up an extra job so you can afford to live, you will not be able to rest properly. Reporting for duty when unfit would be tantamount to a criminal act.

How will you be received by your peers? Bump into me anywhere and I'll call you a plonker!

PM

[Dash2Class]

If you need borrow money to do this, you need your head examining. Living, even cheaply away from home, running a car, eating etc. all requires cash. Cash which you won't have and which will be running away from you faster than you can run towards it. The wretched clowns who pay for their ratings and line flying will be piddling in their own beds - as well as mine. Why, because in your eagerness to get employment you have shown that you are void of any professional integrity as you are prepared to work for LESS than NOTHING. You also will be driving down the terms and conditions for everyone in the profession because prosperity of those on the top of the pile depends on those on the bottom. Working for nothing devalues all of our jobs. I can almost predict you future as well. You'll be bidding for a Command, in cash!

P2F Schemes also put other F/O's out of work because of you are prepared to prostitute yourself to get get a job. That's NOT a job, it's an expensive pleasure ride where the pleasure is all the company's.

Then there is the safety aspect. Do really expect me and my family to fly in an aircraft where the F/O can't afford to live properly? To do this job, you have to have proper rest, food, diet and exercise. You are not able to obtain any of this if you are living in your car, a tent or a crash pad. And should you take up an extra job so you can afford to live, you will not be able to rest properly. Reporting for duty when unfit would be tantamount to a criminal act.

How will you be received by your peers? Bump into me anywhere and I'll call you a plonker!Could not agree more.
Skiprat (for that's what you'll be) I thought I'd be safe, 6 years into my career, flying a 747. MADE I thought... Wrong! I'm now facing the dole Q as Redundancy looms closer and there are no jobs out there for F/O positions partly due to this type of scheme and the lowering of T&Cs Airlines are now only taking on snotty nosed cadets as you cost pittance to pay and you'll work for less if they can get away with it. Well they will...

No airline is interested in training their own guys as you'll be paying for it!

If you want to become a professional pilot, do so. DON"T become a whore to the Pimps in Airline management. It has to end somewhere.
:ugh:
I wish you all the luck in your future endeavors, I just hope you don't jeapordise them by PAYING for work.

Dash.

[Firestorm]

If you think that paying more to be on the flight than many passengers pay these days is a good way to get yourself into a ridiculous debt then go ahead. If you believe the marketing hype that you will get a job at the end of it go ahead. I doubt you will actually take much notice of what is written here as you have indicated that you have read the post elsewhere, and know what the general feeling is. I hope it works out for you, but I consider anyone who gets involved in these schemes to be showing particularly poor decision making skills, and I hope I never get to fly in the same airspace as them.

I'm sure that you're a decent sort of bloke so don't take my comments as a personal attack, but don't get involved with this scheme. It really won't be the kick start to your career that you imagine. I speak as one who did a self sponsored type rating with a low cost airline (under a bit of duress), was told how it was an investment in myself, and has been redundant for the last 14 months. Let the industry shoulder the financial burden.

[captplaystation]

It may be worth you probing a little deeper into what work they "secured" :hmm: - shome mistake shurely - for 11 out of 15 bods.

I suspect this "work" is probably "pay us for the pleasure" , or at least "what ? you didn't think we were going to pay YOU ? ?" for 200/ 300 ,however many hrs ,& then sod off as another cash cow has arrived. This is not what I would term "work" or indeed "employment" it is just a cynical extension of the scam they are propogating by telling you that , as a 200/300/500 hr on type F/O you are any use whatsoever, to man or beast.
Sorry, but at the moment you are not, and much as you wish to believe it, & indeed believe it when someone tells you the recession is turning , do you also believe in the tooth fairy & Father Christmas, cos at this time those two have more credibility than this nasty little scheme, which is preying on the desparate ,by telling them what they WANT to hear, rather than the truth or anything resembling it. All this individual is concerned about is upgrading his AudiR8 to the latest V10 model, do you wanna pay for it ? :rolleyes:
You may not like what is written here about PTF, but at least heed the warnings from those who have done it & are now in even deeper financial doo-doo. . . . and they have the the same, or more, hrs you would have at the end of this charade AND their career is still going nowhere, doesn't that tell you sumfink ? ?:ugh:

This job requires you to display good judgement, by signing up now you will be displaying a total lack of this quality . . . . . :=

[Wannabe24]

Please treat anything that comes out of Mr J Curd's mouth as 75% fiction. The man is an incredibly smart and cunning liar (salesman). 11/15 have been successfully employed this year. Total and utter bullcrap. The vast majority of those who have got a paid flying position (contract/perm) are actually from the first/second batch which completed their line training with EZY back in late 2008/early 2009. After this, the EZY relationship ended. Thereafter BMI have been used for the line training. As far as I know 2 people have subsequently secured a perm position out in the Far East - THIS WAS NOT OF MR CURD'S DOING!!! (not one cent).

[Dr Eckener]

I would appreciate if comments about the rights or wrongs of this type of training are kept out of this particular thread.
I am sure you would, because the truth hurts. Go ahead, and join the ever growing list of people who shame this industry.:yuk:

[favete linguis]

Maybe Jonathan Curd would care to post something and make it crystal clear to all of us:

a. How he's exploiting peoples dreams and aspirations by feathering his own nest

or

b. Hows he's doing a fantastic service for people and providing a career move out of a genuine interest in helping fellow pilots.

:ugh:

[Uncle Wiggily]

Shagrat: You said that you have no issue with paying to fly, so be it. You should ask Mr. Curd for a list of the past customers and seriously think about personally speaking with these "testimonials".

I'm very saddened to hear that you have chosen this path. Many fine pilots have worked very hard for many years to try and preserve an OK wage and lifestyle, only for people like yourself to destroy it in a matter of months.

[tubby linton]

What are J.Curd's credentials?Is he a TRI?TRE ?

[spider_man]

We have 1 place left to fill for the bmi course starting 12th April.

If you are thinking of doing a line training program then this could be for you.

I am personally running an assessment this Wednesday (24th) in London Gatwick.
We will be using the Boeing 737-300 simulator to fly a profile of a take-off, general handling and a raw data ILS.

Its actually great fun and will be a positive experience, if interested please contact me asap to secure the last place.

For fast acting pilots we will refund the assessment fee if you join this course!

Can't say fairer than that.


Didnt BMI just lay off 100+ pilots??

[favete linguis]

v1rotatev7

This guy will reply very soon in court for the damage he done to a lot of students...
First with "ATP" and latter he was forced to open another one: A320Typerating. Guess why ???????

Ask him about Elite scheme ?
Ask what happen to some Spanish students and what happen to their line training ?
Ask him what happen to a few students with Hellas Jet ? How many hours have they have and what will be their future now ?
Ask him about the B747 Type ratings & Line trainings and what happen to the students ??

The only thing that he want is to sell type ratings.
If something go wrong with your line training, he simply dont care and wont help you !!!! His major concern is the BMI FOD...

Care to elaborate there?

[I'm Off!]

Jeez will you guys never learn? So you want to be a professional pilot? The clue is in the word 'professional'. If you pay someone else so that you can fly, are you being in any way 'professional'?

I'll leave you to work it out from all the comments so far on this thread....:ugh:

[burnable gomi]

We have 1 place left to fill for the bmi course starting 12th April.

If you are thinking of doing a line training program then this could be for you.

I am personally running an assessment this Wednesday (24th) in London Gatwick.
We will be using the Boeing 737-300 simulator to fly a profile of a take-off, general handling and a raw data ILS.

Its actually great fun and will be a positive experience, if interested please contact me asap to secure the last place.

For fast acting pilots we will refund the assessment fee if you join this course!

Can't say fairer than that.


gotta love the old hard sell. Act now (ie. before you have a chance to realize how big of scam this is) and we'll give you a discount! Maybe they'll throw in a free steak knife for the first 100 callers too!

[bananaman2]

can substantiate some of what, wannabe24 and v1rotatev7 have posted from word of mouth. Know a couple of people who have done this and...

some of the 'job success' is an Easyjet Flexicrew contract this summer and at least a couple of others have jobs out in the Far East but off their own backs or through contacts.

Personally i'd go for Ryanair.

[flyhelico]

They do have testimonials from the people that have been successfuland where are the testimonials of people who have been riped off...???

who are too ashamed to say they lost their money and failed base training or flight test?

i have myself a rating on the 320 and I don't find anything expect "pay to fly".

there is no way a company will pay, they will never pay you as long as people are willing to pay to fly. Their goal is to cut cost, and they have found the way how to do it.
it' s a fact, and I can prove it.
Just look at the number of experimented pilots looking for jobs, why they are not hired?
because they have figure out they can have pilots not even working for free, but paying to fly.(with all the advantages for the company)

Don't believe these testimonials,it s a lose-win situation in the long term( you are the loser). I can write my own testimonials.

(you will never get hired, and you will join the long line of unemployed pilots with 300 or 500 hours, they have unlimited low time pilot like you willing to fill the pocket of companies with your parents'money)

Tomorrow I can sit in an airbus , but what will happen to me when I will be broken of 30'000 euro in 6 months???what happen if the company doesn't receive their money and ask me to leave the plane?

Now ask yourself:
With 30'000 euro I can look for a paid job, buy food and rent a home.
Why should I prostitue myself when most airlines will accept only pilots who pay for such scheme.Where is the logic? shooting at myself?

the key of success is to be out of debt, or debt free!

[Le sok]

Shagrat, it is actually very simple.
When you have finished the line training and got your 200 or whatever hours, why would you get a paid job? The company surely will go for other people who will pay to fly instead of having to pay you!
Personally I would try to get a simple turboprop job that gives some income and don’t create a loan you have to pay off and then wait a few years for better times for Aviation.

Good luck

Le Sok

[Knee Trembler]

I've written on this subject before and hope I can offer a balanced opinion.

I had an involuntary break from flying in 2004 and with 4000hrs as an FO couldn't get back into the market. After turning down Globespan, I finally did a self sponsored 737 rating with Excel/XL at GECAT.

The deal then was very clear, we paid for the type rating (at the end) and were paid by Excel from day 1 with the appropriate contract signed in advance.

Unless you are offered a deal like this, then don't even think about it. I also wanted to do a 320 rating in 2004 and to GECAT's credit they wouldn't even take the money as they said there was absolutely nothing out there.

Assuming you go ahead you will be one of countless hundred people hawking themselves from company to company. The only ones likely to be interested are companies that you don't want to work for. Most decent operators want to control their own standards.

The most likely scenario is that you get a chance with one of the turboprop operators such as Flybe or Eastern Airways. They won't be interested in the slightest in what rating you have, and if you get an offer you'll still have a mountain of debt and a worthless rating in your licence.

I now live and work in Germany and it's sobering to note that last year the flying schools here produced 900 pilots! This year there are probably 250-300 jobs available in the large airlines and Lufthansa are about to make up to 200 pilots redundant. I'll leave you to do the maths yourself.

Go and get any job you can to pay the bills. Keep sending the applications and wait for better times. Then go to the pub and reflect on the GBP20,000 debt that you don't have!

As always, the very best of luck :-).

KT

[763 jock]

I've just had a stroke of luck. Apparently, a long lost relative has left me a fortune in a bank in Lagos. I'm sending a couple of grand via Western Union to free the money up, then I'm spending the proceeds on a shiny new overpriced type rating and 500 hours jet time. I'm told I'll be a Captain in less than three years time as there are loads of jobs out there.

Wish me luck.:ok:

[magicmick]

Hi, I’ll be as neutral as I can here as the whole PTF debate seems to be very divisive and generates passionate responses from many. There is no doubt that any PTF scheme is an immense gamble and there is a very old (and very true) saying that says ‘never gamble what you can’t afford to lose’ so if you have the money for the course and to support yourself (food/ accom etc) during the course then by all means consider it as an option. Please don’t take out a loan for the money, you probably won’t get an unsecured loan from any reputable lender and if you do default on a loan from the type of people that would let you have the money unsecured then you’ll probably end up ‘sleeping with the fishes.’

There were a couple of guys that have posted on PPRUNE in the past using the names ‘kangy’ and ‘EpsilonVaz’ they both did the J Curd course through EZY and seemed very satisfied. They were both called back for 6 month paid contracts during Summer 2008 but I do not know what happened to them after that, maybe a PM to them might get some more information.

While you have been seeking information you have heard from employed FOs who feel that PTFs are lowering their terms and conditions and are threatening their jobs and the industry. I’m sure that there are many Captains who have seen good FOs laid off and replaced by a succession of PTFs so some flight crew will be heavily biased against PTF and if you do the course you will have to work and fly with these people. One would hope that these people would be professional enough to leave their prejudice at home but they’re only human and they may make life difficult for you when you’re flying so you will have to develop a thick skin very rapidly.

My own view on PTF has mellowed over the past couple of years, I finished modular MEIR in April 2008 and at the time I would have sooner forced angry wasps up my own arse than PTF!!! In the following 2 years I have had one telephone interview and one face to face interview and sim assessment but no job. My frustration has allowed my view of PTF to change, these days I would rather just force a slightly upset butterfly up my own arse than PTF. In my situation I was fairly lucky as I had a Plan B, before I trained I was an aircraft engineer so I have been doing some well paid contract engineering work lately and, after tax I have just about made back all the money that I spent on training and I have never been in debt and anytime soon my wife might start talking nicely to me again!!!

There will be a lot of people who will come on here and give their opinion but the final choice has to be down to you. Investigate the J Curd course and the courses offered by plenty of other PTF companies, do some serious soul searching, plan for the worst and hope for the best. I sincerely wish you all the best in whatever you choose to do.

Take it easy, keep smiling and stay safe.

Cheers

MM

[Dreamshiner]

A quote often attributed to PT Barnum (however not verified) is:

"all publicity is good publicity".

I'm concious of the number of posts you have made before starting this thread, initially I thought it may be someone with a vested interest in the scheme attempting to highlight it in the hope there would be at least a few fATPL'ers out there who were unaware of the course and get some traffic to their website despite the predominately negative posts that would follow questioning your morals and cancerous nature of these initiatives.

Upon reflection I am more inclined to think that at fATPL level yourself you must have been exposed to and informed of PPRuNe either before you started on your training or at the very least during it. Your comments in the larger bolder font show that you have certainly reviewed many threads debating the P2F issue on here. Also, I find it hard to believe you waited till this fork in the road of your career before having the urge to post for the first time.

This would lead me to believe you have created a secondary username to ensure you disassociate yourself from the one you've used up to now on here. To be honest I understand this as nobody wants extra drama in their lives and this subject is very emotive.

I may be incorrect with this theory, if I am I apologise and offer my take below.

I think what magicmick wrote is a reasoned response to your quandry, he has the benefit of a well paid job with an airside pass in aviation so can still keep his ear to the ground. He has the itch despite being financially secure so I can only imagine that you may not feel that you can hold off until the market picks up to the extent that all the experienced redundant pilots are rehired, then those with TR's and minimum hours on type and so on down the chain.

I do not know you age or what you did before aviation, if you could walk back into your old job to keep the wolf from the door. You may be one of many looking for something in an economic downturn with over 2m unemployed and taking a decision to shell out approximately 1 years salary as a FO to attain a TR and however many hours may be something you'd pay credence to. After your hours there are no guarantees and even if you got one in writing it would have a disclaimer no doubt.

I personally think paying a commercial company on a revenue generating endeavour to take you along is a cancer in our industry that hasn't been stamped out due to a multitude of reasons discussed at length on other threads, however listing them here not adding to the specific questions you raised.

You may feel that in 10 years time, how you got your first foot on the ladder in 2010 may be forgotten by your peers. I would say there is a good chance you and I will be working in an industry that will have changed considerably and by pursing this course you may have added an extra straw to the camels of that decline 10 years before. If you have created a new username to facilitate this debate then surely your own embarrassment should tell you something going forward.

Another quote often used is "sh!t sticks"

[link_142]

I was initially considering a type rating/line training package myself a very short while ago!

But having done some research of my own as well as the obvious blatant lies from the TRTO's of promise of jobs etc its obvious to see that its just a scam to get your money...

I do hope that the rest of you guys thinking of doing what i was going to do realise it too...and stop before its too late, and just wait for the market to pick up!

:ok:

[joaocaracol]

Take a look at Airliner World (April 2010, page 37).

There is an interview with Mr. Martin Halstead and at some point they write "...he was made redundant last summer. He quickly landed a First Officer job for Greek start-up carrier Elite Airlines on the Airbus A320 and completed the type rating course on the aircraft with bmi. However shortly after qualifying the airline failed and once again Martin was forced to seek alternative employment".

What a weird way to say "I gave the money to Capt. Jonathan Curd and now I have no job".

:D

[socrates]

I think theres a little confusion there. Reference to Martin Halstead here: Martin Halstead - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Halstead)

In January 2010 Halstead set up a new aviation venture called Varsity Express, initially disguising his own involvement in the company.[12] As his lead role in the business became public, Martin Halstead stated that Varsity Express had sufficient funds to operate for 6 months without carrying a single passenger.[13] Ten days prior to Varsity's first flight, Halstead also claimed to the media that his nascent airline already employed about 20 people.[11]

The new company started services between Oxford and Edinburgh on 1 March 2010 and suspended operations one week later, after Halstead failed to pay fees due in respect of the small aircraft he had leased to operate the service.[14] Thirteen passengers were left stranded because the second leg of their return tickets was not honoured. [15]

A number of allegations of dishonesty surrounding Varsity Express were reported in The Times newspaper on 14 March 2010[16]. The article reported allegations that Martin Halstead used a fictitious name to pose variously as both the commercial director and the financial backer of the airline: launched the business with a partner who was disqualified from acting as a company director; boasted of fictitious investors; and obtained finance for the business by asking four newly-qualified pilot recruits to pay up to £15,000 each for specialised 'type training', which was never provided. The pilots' money was allegedly paid into Halstead's personal bank account.

From his behaviour, you could be forgiven thinking he's related to jon curd, but I dont think the article is correct in suggesting he worked for Elite on the airbus, unless of course its a different person with the same name.

I may be wrong, but I believe that Elite never managed to get an airbus?

[763 jock]

"If you are offered a turbo-prop job as a first
officer then this is great experience but you need to use it as a steppingstone
to the jets, don't get suckered into taking a turbo-prop command, it
will be a costly mistake."
:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[joaocaracol]

Yes Socrates,

He is the same guy, but after reading his Wikipedia profile I´m beginning to think he managed to cheat Capt. J. Curd, and that is a completely unusual situation. :}

Anyway, probably I will stop buying Airline World.

[Kirks gusset]

I'm not getting into the whole PTF debate as this has been done to death on this forum, however, the problem with this thread as I percieve is facts:

Is the "named individual" a good Captain and a good instructor.. answer..without doubt and you probably won't find anyone to challenge this.

Did /does his students had/ have a good quality TR course.. yes.. amongst the better ones we've seen.

Now, here's the problem. When does the hat change from competent instructor/Captain to hard sell businessman and how much of the former persona is influencing the decisions of the prospective clients.

It would appear from reading through the lines that all the students ended up with a good Type Rating but the whole follow on to the line training and employment in recent times has gone wrong.

How much of that mess was due directly to Mr C and how much was in fact due to the situation within the client airlines? One can argue that Joe Bloggs bought a " Solution" and expected a job after xxx hrs line flying, but if the airline stops flying, surely all ATP have to do is either: Refund the Line Training element less the OCC or find an alternative source of line training. The later, I would suggest, is very very difficult in today's market. Of course, the PTF student is now in limbo and time is the one thing they can't catch up on as is an expired LPC.

IF all the line training had taken place, and IF the guys had subsequently got contracts, would there be so much anger on the site against the individual as opposed to the concept of PTF.

I now understand the ex co-owner is now working in Greece and that the original ATP is now relaunched , could this be the reason for the " new company" as opposed to a more sinister take.. just a thought?

I can't help thinking that the high profile of Mr C does mark him as a target on these forums, whereas, an organisation such as Eaglejet, which without doubt has more " students" is ignored. Perhaps this could be that EJ don't sell on the basis of a job at the end of the program.. who knows.

I am not defending the morals of Mr C or his claims as I have no axe to grind either way, however I do feel that individuals must take responsibilty for their choices, good or bad and would like to see a response on here from someone who bought a " solution" which did not materialise and how they tried to resolve it in precise terms.

On a practical note, those guys that bought TRs from any organisation and have not yet got jobs or line training, should form a syndicate to get pairs for the sims ( LPCs) . I am sure a few TREs would do you guys a good deal to keep you current:ok:

[blueplume]

Do want you think you need to do but think very carefully indeed.
SSTR on the whole only serve to make you feel better temporarily as you are glad that you made a decision. This will wear off very quickly as the feeling that you are spending far too much money on something that you don't really need sets in. It's a bit like Shopping Therapy. You'll go home with your new shoes,trendy jacket or whatever and put it in the wardrobe hoping to find an opportunity to wear it and look snappy. As time goes by you realize that you haven't used it for weeks, then months, then you stop thinking about it. But the money is still spent.

The Elite 747 gig never happened because the company never had and never will have an AOC. TR were sold on the categorical assurance that the AOC would be issued "just now" or "imminently" or "they're waiting for approval next week". A320 TR were sold for the same company on the assurance that Elite would obtain a fleet of A320 "in a few months' time".

The point is that the person selling TR has no influence or interest WHATSOEVER in finding you work after obtaining your TR. As long as you hand over your money in full and up front he is happy. It disappears into an account and you will never see it again. Remember that to have your TR on your licence you need a Base Check in a real a/c. If the purported employer does not hold an AOC and you do not find more money to use a third party's a/c you will not complete your TR and have nothing to show for your investment. Think about it very carefully and listen to those who have posted here and elsewhere. If 85% are negative comments there must be a good reason for it.

As said by others: there is no substitute for taking your time and gaining experience as you move through the ranks. Experience is what will make you better and get you out of trouble when the need arises. I know that times are bad right now but it will change, it always does.

Keep your chin up and stay smart. Hold on to your money as long as you can.

[flyhelico]

ask the guy to take 20% of your pay check every month until type rating is paid...
(of course, he will tell you he is not interested!!they are just interested to take your money)

guys, you should stop to dream. When they ask you to pay for type rating and everything, it' s because there is no job.

If there were job, airline will pay for you and will bond you for 3-5 years.

[Callsign Kilo]

This guy's name has came up regularly in these forums....It has never been in a positive context. He is feathering his own nest and if you are happy to be the feathers then write him a nice big cheque. After that the gloves are off. Don't think that you will be the lucky one who avoids any consequences. It generally isn't the case.

Brings one of the best lines of one of my favourite films to mind...

"Man sells his soul to the devil, it all ends in tears. These arrangements usually do" - Michael Gambon as Eddie Temple, relating the drug business to the opera, Damnation of Faust (Layercake, 2004)

[favete linguis]

Why have the following allowed their names to be associated with this then?

dee kang (http://www.a320typerating.com/moretestimonials.html)
Ed Morris (http://www.a320typerating.com/edmorris.html)
H Lebsir (http://www.a320typerating.com/hlebsir.html)
Jochen Radke (http://www.a320typerating.com/jochenradke.html)
Kin Li (http://www.a320typerating.com/kinli.html)
Mark Van Ketel
(http://www.a320typerating.com/markvanketel.html)Glyn Dewhurst (http://www.a320typerating.com/glyndewhurst.html)
Philip Bradley (http://www.a320typerating.com/philipbradley.html)
Paul Gibson (http://www.a320typerating.com/paulgibson.html)
Rod Johnson (http://www.a320typerating.com/ronjohnson.html)
Varun Jamnadass (http://www.a320typerating.com/varunjamnadass.html)
Jamie Butler (http://www.a320typerating.com/jamiebutler.html)

Perhaps they should come on here and explain themselves.


:=

[320seriesTRE]

Favete, do you work for the TRTO?

Why are you advertising the testimonials on PPRuNe?

Very sneaky:=:=

I have flown with a few of these guys and they are as good as any other FO in easyJet. They were trained by easyJet TRIs / Es, not Mr. C.

Unfortunately we have just taken on 12 more P2Fs who did their line training with BMI over the winter. The interviews have just been completed and they are in the system as we speak.

I understand that there are more to follow.

Favete, if you are for real stop giving the scheme a boost by posting the testimonials. More than 30 P2Fs are now here for the summer.

I think you are legitimizing the scheme intentionally.........

I will not be surprised if (you) er he has more testimonials on his web-site soon. Stop advertising.

:=:=:=

I have looked at Favete's posts and he does not work for the TRTO as he has vehemently opposed the P2F scheme. I apologise if I doubted you...:ok:

[joaocaracol]

Hello Capt. 320seriesTRE,

As I understand, Easyjet has just taken on 12 F/O from bmi P2F scheme for 6 months summer contract. Very good news :D but there is something that I don´t understand and probably you are the right person to explain it to me. To be eligible for a flexicrew summer contract with Easyjet you need to come from the bmi P2F scheme? I ask these question because I´m registered for the flexicrew CTC and Park programs with Easy for several months, and I did not received any kind of invitation for assessment never. I´m A320 rated with hours on type.

If you care to read the information about Equal Opportunities on Easy web page, at some point it is written:

"easyJet is committed to being an equal opportunities employer as we wish to encourage all our employees to make the best use of their skills and experience. Our policy aims to ensure that no job applicant or employee receives less favourable treatment. We will treat staff, potential staff and the public that we serve fairly and with dignity.

Any actions by any of our employees which contravene either the Race Relations Act, the Sex Discrimination Act, the Disability Discrimination Act, the Employment Equality (Sexual Orientation) Regulations or the Employment Equality (Religion and Belief) Regulations will be taken very seriously and will be dealt with under easyJet's disciplinary procedure. Such actions may amount to gross misconduct and result in dismissal."

Came across my mind that probably there is something going on not in line with this policy.

Best regads

[socrates]

I imagine if Jonathan Curd advertises on this site then he also reads the comments, and as surely any comment where someone is referenced they will read these comments, even if out of idle curiosity.

No doubt Jonathan is following this thread, with anger, with amusement or with [I doubt] complete indifference.

This is an opportunity for him to post in defense or support of his scheme but so far nothing.

http://www.soldiersofanarchy.com/style_emoticons/default/tumbleweed2.gif

Come on Jonathan, set the record straight and explain your rationale.

[Pilot Positive]

Shagrat: Suggest you read the following posts:

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/409740-worth-applying.html

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/408838-varsity-express-gone-bust-within-1-week-merged.html

You will not be doing yourself or other pilots any favours. Why not just earn the right to a type rating by being patient and getting other experience (e.g. single pilot MEP ops etc...) It will be a lot of fun. After all you learnt to fly to fly didnt you? regardless of the type? :}

The only people who are benefitting from PTF are the schools (e.g. OAA), the airlines (e.g EZY) and the intermediaries (e.g. J Curd). NOT THE PILOTS. If you're clever you would have already guessed by now that its a fool's route.

[Bus_Driver1990]

PTF, is not the right way, it is not the only way, but it is a way to get in the industry.

Mr. Curd does make money. He does "sell" his course and of course he cares first about himself, his business and his bottom line.

So do I, I wanted what was best for me. I did the type rating and line training, I paid for it by getting a loan, and yes I did wait around for 7 months after the line training to get a job.

The extra £ 36,000 was not that much more to invest on top of the £ 70,000 already paid.

Mr. Curd did not help me find a job. He never promised me that you would either. I did it on my own. His course facilitated my search. I sent over 200 CVs, and every time it landed on a chief pilot's desk it had an airbus 320 Rating and 150 hours on it.

Finally I got my break, I sent my CV so many times to the same companies, that I got a call for an interview. I did the assessment, and I passed it. No one seemed to care that I had paid for line training.

They saw me as some one who had time on type, was well trained, and was very determined and ready to go.

I fast tracked my career. I do not regret it. Twenty of us went through the BMI line training last year, 16 have jobs now. That speaks volumes in itself.

As with everything in life, it is about timing and right place right time. easyJet needed pilots for the summer, they wanted pilots who were trained by a good reputable airline. They found them. The guys who did the course took a risk, it paid off. Did Mr. Curd help them? Who cares? They got what they wanted, and the course helped them as well.

Mr. Curd used me, and I used his course to get what I wanted. I am now flying an a320 in the far east for a good salary and I am enjoying not just my career, but also my life style.

My good friend who did the assessment and decided not to do the scheme, does not have a £ 36K loan, but then again he does not fly a plane either.

He regrets not doing the course with me, but guess what, he does not think the time is right to do it now..... It never is the right time. You either make the most of it, or you find excuses not to take charge of your life.

I am a pilot, and I want to fly. No one owes me, or any of us anything. I knew what I was getting when I did the course, and I knew that it would take a lot of hard work to get the 1st job.

I never believed that Mr. Curd would help me, I believed in me. I knew that with a 320 type rating and time on type I would be very marketable.

I also knew that if I did not do it, I would not be flying now. Every one makes choices. I made mine based on what was good for me.

I used the system, and I am not bothered about Mr. Curd, easyJet, BMI, Mr. Jones, or BALPA. I am too insignificant to stop the airlines doing apprenticeships.

I just get on with life and enjoy every day as it comes. Stop worrying about Mr. Curd and easyJet, BMI, Thomas Cook, Monarch British Airways...... Focus on what you want in life. If you want to fly, try to get in as soon as possible. If you like money, and a stable 9 to 5 job, then you are not in the right profession.;)

[320seriesTRE]

Dear Bus_Driver 1990.

You are a very naive young man or lady. Your attitude is despicable. Your generation does not have the patience to do things the proper way.

All I hear now days is fast track.... me, me, me..... What a sad state the industry will be in a couple of years with people like you.

I am sure you well get what you deserve in due course.
:ugh:

[blackred1443]

Is it any wonder the ar$e fell out of the global economy with such impatience. What a 24 carat plonker.20 yrs old and the whole lot sussed:ugh:
One can only hope in time to come some else comes along to pay for a type rating and line training with your current employer that results in you getting your marching orders.

[Pilot Positive]

Cor blimey, streuth guv'nor!! Where on earth did Bus-Driver appear from? First post on PPRune and he's done it all and knows it all. :ouch:

Call me a cynic but I smell a rat... :hmm:

[747JJ]

A good FO is worth his weight in gold, a P2F muppet is worth his weight in s.hit. I've had the opportunity to fly with some of these doorknobs that "Accelerated" their way into a jet and in more cases than not its not a pretty sight. While some are quite capable and sharp, there are people out there that should not be 2nd in command of a paddleboat in Hydepark let alone in a commercial jet.

Flying the line, I seem to be spending more and more time involving myself in teaching basic airmanship and matters that when I came from school where basic knowledge. While I appreciate the need for a Captain to pass knowledge to the FO, I am not a line trainer with my present employer. As it is, it's not in my job description to act as a mentor/tutor, teacher, father, prophylactic for some mediocre talent, egomaniac 20 some year old 200h P2F muppet who thinks that 1200 eur a month is a great salary.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Comments of the type just issued by 747JJ are most unhelpful as they are steeped in woeful ignorance and foolishness. It is simply not accurate or fair to term these pilots as 'p2f muppets'. The impression being given is that these guys are incompetent buffoons who are roaming about in easyJet Airbuses having no idea what they are doing. That is simply not the case.

As we all know, the first casualty of war is truth - nowhere is that more true than in the case of JC. I am not a personal friend of his, but do know him professionally through easyJet. He is not some thief or criminal, and in his role as an easyJet TRE is nothing other than a top bloke. The snag is that he has a sideline as a businessman whereby he has started providing dirt-cheap Airbus pilots to particular companies. The picture is actually quite complex and it may be worth highlighting some of those complexities. I cannot comment on the host of schemes and business associations being discussed earlier - I can comment on the ATP scheme and the subsequent situation at easyJet.

The original JC ATP scheme (as opposed to the CTC ATP scheme which is a completely different animal) was a disaster overall. The biggest single failing was that there was no credible selection process - consequently many of those on the scheme were simply not of the calibre required to be professional airline pilots. They were completely misled and sadly a number either never saw the inside of an Airbus or were so poor in line training that they were never going to be employed again. The ground training was a disgrace in that it was done at the wrong pace to fit in with the personal schedules of the scheme owners and not the students. It was a model of how not to provide training. Most of the sim training was provided in Amsterdam by easyJet TRIs/TREs. Nonetheless, the schedules were not appropriate for the students' needs and given some of their natural lack of aptitude it was very difficult indeed to make it work. The bottom line is that you cannot put in what God left out! I cannot give an exact figure, but only about half of those who started ever finished their 150 hours of line training to an acceptable standard - a pass rate substantially below virtually any other airline scheme I have ever heard of. To top it all off, JC had virtually guaranteed jobs to all the participants and in the end, not a single one of them got a job. In fairness to JC, he believed he had been given jobs galore by various companies. Alas, the credit crunch bit - no one was interested at the exact moment his pilots appeared out of their 150 hours of line training. The easyJet head of training was sufficiently alarmed at the calibre of the candidates that he basically binned the contract and kicked out the people who had difficulty on base training. Hard rules, but it is difficult to argue with either his logic or the integrity of the decision.

However, it should be pointed out that things have moved on. JC has now persuaded BMI to provide line training instead of easyJet. More importantly, he has substantially changed his recruitment criteria and has undoubtedly acquired better candidates than was previously the case. I have personally been involved in the training of some of these people who have come from BMI to easyJet under the Parc Aviation contract pilot scheme. From what I have seen, these are no worse than say the CTC pilots who come through as 200 hour cadets - in some cases they are better. Therefore it is reasonable to say that JC has got his act together and is also being favoured by good luck in that there are now at least contract jobs to offer his customers. It should also be said that there are still court cases looming for JC from disenchanted ex-ATP scheme pilots who feel deceived by what they received in terms of jobs at the end. How that will end I do not know, but that is the current situation.

The final comment that needs to be made is about the accuracy of the jobs claimed. There was a list of 'testimonials' mentioned previously - I know one or two of those quoted in that I have been involved with their training. It needs to be pointed out that to the best of my knowledge not a single permanent job has ever been found for any of JC's pilots. Every single one of those 11 out of 15 pilots quoted are on temporary contracts under either the CTC flexicrew scheme or as Parc Aviation contract pilots from this year's batch. There are, allegedly, going to be a number of permanent jobs on offer at the end of the season at easyJet, but controversy reigns internally as to how the bun fight will be decided. There is talk of a separate recruitment process - that is fraught with potential difficulty. Not surprsingly, CTC are also keen to ensure their own graduates get first dibs and it may yet turn into an unholy scrabble. My own view is that jobs should be allocated on a 'seniority' basis - ie the first permanent jobs go to the pilots who have been contract pilots with easyJet the longest. It does not look as if that is what will happen, but that decision is way outside my pay grade.

Anyway, a bit long-winded but that is the way it is. In summary, JC is a top TRE at easyJet. In my view he is also a good and fair man along with it. His business enterprises with his mate Stelios (not THE Stelios I should say) are altogether a different story. The most recent batch of pilots are, to my mind, as good as any who have appeared through other schemes. In addition, the ATP graduates we still have on temporary contract (less than half of those who started) are good people who now have well in excess of 500 hours on type. However, despite being a number of years into these p2f schemes, not a single one of them that I know of has yet managed to obtain a permanent job. That is my take on it - others may choose to disagree!

[Microburst2002]

BUS_DRIVER 1990

I have many friends with thousands of flight hours in jets who cannot find a job after their airlines went bankrupt of fired them by the hundreds.

With families. With a "lifstyle" they loved.

You, my dear, have bought the job of one of them, who is in deep shi* because he cannot pay the bills. You can't even imagine the desperation he feels and the drama he is in since a few years ago.

I can't myself get a job in EZY, because they don't want pilots who don't pay. This occurs because it is possible for you, my friend, or others, to buy that position.

It seems all of this does not affect your ability to sleep tight every night.

"fast track"... Well, that is an interesting way to put it, indeed.

[stansdead]

747JJ,

Have you lost your manners since you stood down as a CRMI?

[flyhelico]

busdriver1990,

you talk crap. no one in the far east hire pilots with 500h. Most guys must have 500h on the bus included 2000h-3000t, and most of the time they ask for 2000h jet.I know the "my friend who didn't pay, now are at home"!!!,

well maybe you friend at home will get a paid job while you still pay back your loan!
I suggest to all of of you instead to look for a P2F scheme, to look for a proper job.

how?
by sending CV to the airline directly. duh!
These guys who sell you P2F, what do you think they do? they call the airlines and say :" do you have jobs for me, I know some pilots!!!"

I bet if you want compete with the P2F, you can simply offer money directly to the airline. You don't need to go through these P2F scheme which are just a bunch of middlemen! why not create your own P2F scheme?

The guys at easyjet , they fly maybe 2 seasons, let's say 6 months ,80h a month during peak season.
They manage to make 500 hours, then some fresh pilot are coming behind and these seasonal pilots are not called back(how is that possible?, I have experience,...!!!).

The market will soon be filled with 500h A320 pilot desperate for a new A320job. Then the P2F middlemen will propose them 500hours on top of that, and a special price of XX'000 euro.

if you want enter this market, you have to pay for CPL, IR,MCC, type rating(maybe 2 ratings), and line training, 500h, another 500h, ...

total 350'000 euro!!!with no job guaranty!:eek:
this profession is a joke!:=

F2P, or P2F (pay to f....):E

[lexxie747]

747JJ !
Sharp as ever,keep up the good work! ,are there paddleboats in hydepark? were do i apply?
Greetings alex boom boom

[Dan Winterland]

I work for an Asian company and I can tell you that someone with 400 hours total time and a type rating with 150 hours on type will not get a look in. Total hours in the thousands are a requirement and a type rating is not necessary as all the training is done in house. In fact, the quality of the training is taken into account and although there have been no P2F pilots employed, I would suspect that these training schemes would not be highly regarded. However, my company is not employing ex-pats at the moment. The recruitment is being fulfilled by cadet schemes.

I'm sure other Asian companys are the same. (Top tip, don't refer to then as "Far Eastern" - the term means nothing in Asia). There seems to be a misconception on these forums that the standards may be lower and they are desperate for pilots. There is a requirement for pilots and they are hiring ex-pats. But most of these are contracts through agencies for which the P2F pilots won't have enough experience for. And although some Asian companies employ directly, the ex-pats employees tend to have much higher requirement than local pilots, laregly due to the high hours requirements of their national aviation authorities. For example, 2800 hours total time with relevant experience is required to validate a foreign ICAO ATPL into a Hong Kong ATPL.

And the standards tend to be very high.

[Clandestino]

What's the fuss about Bus_Driver1990? He cheated PPRuNe out of advertizing fee and that's about it. Wannabees swallowing his marketing hype, not quite remote from the ones that can be seen on we-sell-anything-TVs, don't have quite the ability of critical reasoning required at PPL level, let alone ATPL.

Thank you, Norman Stanley Fletcher, for superbly illustrating what ancient Romans knew very well: corruptio optimi cuiusque pessima.

[Microburst2002]

Clandestino, I still don't have obtained my ICAO latin proficiency level...

[Invalid User Name]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think he means:

Corruptio optimi pessima
Corruption of the best is worst

[747JJ]

Norman Stanley Fletcher... Dear chap, why don't you just take a good wiff what you are showeling. Might help you in the long run. Yes some of the guys are incompetent baffoons as you so eloquently put it and have no place in a jet cockpit (I do so prefer the old word to Flight Deck). Mind reading my post again, SOME of these guys are extremely good at their jobs, but frankly they are the minority. There are people flying these days that started in the last few years that would have never got a job 10 years ago and today the only reason some of these people are flying is Pappa's fat wallet or a bank manager who provided a loan against his/hers better knowledge.


Stansdead... Never had manners if it meant being politically correct at the expense of truth or not speaking my mind when needed. I don't kiss a.ss nor do I know how to and certainly don't know how to sugarcoat things. Thats it pretty much in a nutshell.

Alex: The hyde park vacancies are gone and done with, but you can join me on the new Amsterdam Oosterpark paddleboat commander's course. I've applied for that one and I hear that they are looking for another nutter to join :} Been a while, hope seeing you when in NL the next time.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

747JJ - no one is more opposed than p2f schemes than me. That, however, is not the issue here. The issue is whether the individuals who are recruited through these schemes and currently working for easyJet are competent to do the job. Unless you are an easyJet Training Captain, which I suspect you are not, then you are simply not qualified to make the assertions you do. You may indeed be a 747 pilot and possibly even a Training Captain on such fine beasts, or you may just be a frozen ATPL wannabee with 35 hours on a light twin - who knows? Whatever the truth of your position, without working for easyJet and being directly exposed to the individuals you are ranting against, your opinion is simply hot air based on supposition and little else. My views are imperfect and only the views of one individual - they are however based on knowledge and experience.

[747JJ]

Want to have a copy of my last LPC and the one's before and my ATPL as well as company ID. No problems sending them to you. Just PM me your Email and you will have them and any other doc you wish in no time at all.

I have not mentioned any particular company in my posts and thus I urge you to read my post again. The P2F problem is not limited to a geographic location nor is it limited to Easyjet. The problem is universal and reflects the abyss commercial aviation is sinking into.

Some younger pilots have the old technology boom syndrome where they want everything now and without working for it. I've recently had a chat with a 1500h tt pilot who is now seriously upset that he has not been selected for a command. With a total of 2 years of commercial flying behind him, I can see that he is rightfully upset and should have been given charge of a commercial aircraft preferably yesterday. This mindset demostrates what is happening in the industry and wht there are companies using the situation to their advantage. One can buy everything, Licence, Rating, Linetraining and thus a position with a low salary. What next: Buying command on an aircraft?

My comments are based on experience while flying on multitide of aircraft types as Captain with people that have built their careers and then with those who have bought theirs. My views are different from yours but nevertheless are based on personal experience and having been involved in the industry through various positions since the 80's. Alas I am no longer flying the 747 Classic, such a pity really as I miss the old lady, a fine aircraft she is.

[angelorange]

2008 we had Subprime mortgages, 2010 we have LOCO Subcontracting Pilot's for 6 months at a time.

Airline accountants have woken up to the SSTR schemes and see them as normal. The next step had to be P2F, especially now post Stock mkt crash. Why pay employees when P2Fers will happily pay you?

Along with the reduction in flying hours and exams with the advent of JAR regulations (remember when you weren't allowed to sit National ATPLs until you had a CPL with 700hours flying under your belt?) we also have the MeGeneration.

Now everybody has to deal with selfish attitudes whatever our age group but never before has a generation been through the achievement mill spurred on by babyboomer parents.

Dr Twenge has written a book on this generation and cites: "We live in a time when high self-esteem is encouraged from childhood, when young people have more freedom and independence than ever, but also far more depression, anxiety, cynicism, and loneliness. Today's young people have been raised to aim for the stars at a time when it is more difficult than ever to get into college, find a good job, and afford a house. Their expectations are very high just as the world is becoming more competitive, so there's a huge clash between their expectations and reality. More than any other generation in history, the children of Baby Boomers are disappointed by what they find when they arrive at adulthood."

So is it any surprise that they want to go from zero to hero (C152 to A320) in the shortest possible time and at least say they have worked as a jet airline pilot? In the longer term (assuming they get more than 6 months flying) the shortcuts to "success" make life boring. When they wake up and see all they have done for 5 years is program an FMGS and raised a gear lever a few thousand times just to pay off the debt they owe HSBC......

747JJ is spot on. NSF might be against P2F but his arguments could be used by EZY managers and others as justification of the scheme. In their eyes it's all fine unless safety is compromised. CTC actually sold their cadet schemes to Stellios on the promise of Safety. For regular flying they were right. Recent events have shown low houred, underpaid autopilot jockeys who may be well trained in SOPs are not always the backstop needed when things go seriously wrong.

[Pilot Positive]

So is it any surprise that they want to go from zero to hero (C152 to A320) in the shortest possible time and at least say they have worked as a jet airline pilot?

No it isnt. And some of the blame must lie with the FTOs who, as the initial industry interface with wannabees, have helped to shape the perception that getting a job is just a matter of bucks.

The likes of OAA are fanning the flames of this attitude by pitching seriously glossy "Zero to Flight deck - just pay and you're made" products without balancing it with integrity and the grounded reality that some of their students will have to take something a lot lower down the food chain. Shame on them for their arrogance will bite them in the arse.

The rest of the aviation world looks on in disbelief as they see 200 houred students go onto a 80t jet with the shared responsibilty of nearly 200 lives whilst they have had to earn that right - and rightly so. Its a deadly serious business not a joyride

Recent events have shown low houred, underpaid autopilot jockeys who may be well trained in SOPs are not always the backstop needed when things go seriously wrong.

Yes - PTF is a very fast growing bubble and it could well pop with some very serious consequences.

[Global Warrior]

Great idea......... why not just buy a type rating and write the hours in your log book? It will save you shed loads of money and as we have already found out, one Sweedish Guy managed to go for 13 years in commercial aviation without a real licence!!!!

On the other hand, you could just be someone with integrity and avoid these schemes!

What the :mad: makes you think you are any better than the people BMI have just laid off? Do you even care that some of those guys have been laid off to accommodate you? (Bang on about employment law if you want..... the company is bigger than the individual)

And when you run out of money and are applying for a job....... do you not think that the chaps that have just been laid off from BMI will not be ahead of you in the Q for a job.......... but you will all be held back because another snotty nosed moron with £40,000 to burn will actually keep you on the dole because he is prepared to pay for his flying........ and soon, he's going to join you in the same Q for a job and as long as there are snotty nosed morons who have £40,000 and lack integrity......... and as long as there are moronic TRE's that want to take £900 a day for training these chaps, the whole industry will suffer because the one thing that no amount of money will buy you is AIRMANSHIP..........

and one day, one of these superstars may just possibly be involved in an incident and if its proven that said snotty nosed moron got to where he is because he leap frogged good people with talent by paying to advance his way up the ladder, despite others being more qualified and more experienced........... i hope, and i pray that those with a legal claim as a result.............. will go after the gonads of the TRE / TRTO that trained and signed them off.

British Aerospace was recently fined £400 Million for giving backhanders to advance their cause and win military contracts. Its been proven that bribing your way to the top is illegal. Do it if you must...... but it only happens because you will be trained by spineless people..... you will work with spineless companies....... and you will be replaced by another spineless individual.................. but if you still want to go ahead and do it............ for £20,000 i'll make you an A320 TRE and then you can put those who trained you on the dole as well.

Let me know:ugh::ugh::ugh:

GW

[Avenger]

PTF is here to stay, it features in most expanding airlines in Europe and now Asia, and, however we view the morals of this, it's the bean counters that ultimately decide the business models, the emphasis must now be on quality control and regulation, which hopefully is an area that can be influenced by " Management Pilots". It is a contradiction that the low hour "wannabe pilots" want to be offered jobs with a fully supported Type Rating by an airline, and yet the same bunch moan about low hours PTF guys getting jobs on the basis of experience and safety.. are you not, apart from the financial outlay, the same group? Or does paying for line training suddenly dilute your experience?
Perhaps companies offering line training should be regulated and approved to do so if the trainees are not " employees". Just a thought:(

[Global Warrior]

I agree..... for sure its bean counters but they just dont see the big picture. Having more experienced (safer) Co-Pilots is expensive so lets replace with people that pay their own way........... However

If you think safety is expensive.......... try having an accident!!!!!

GW

[Max Angle]

the people BMI have just laid off? Do you even care that some of those guys have been laid off to accommodate you?

I am most certainly not a fan of what is going on in bmi with the pay to fly cadets, we should never have got involved in my opinion, but I can I can tell you quite definitely that no one has been laid off to accommodate them. We have a procedure in place that gives our First Officers a day off when a cadet takes their flying but gives them the option to turn up, sit on the jumpseat and claim flight allowances for the day if they so choose. These people are not making up the headcount of the airline in anyway at all (yet!).

[camel]

Meanwhile in the good 'ol Usa ...trying to push for a MINIMUM of 1500 hours and full ATP for First Officers....main reason 'safety' .

If this goes through then perhaps our friends in JAA la land might think about it too,and kill of this pay to fly rubbish for ever.

[Bamse01]

I believe a compromise was reached and 800 hrs will be the minimum to fly right seat in a Part 121 operation.

[fcom]

I can understand why someone who has spent a fortune on a ATPL and who is struggling to find a job would pay for a type rating as I was in the same situation myself in the mid 90's. I was unemployed for nearly 5 years with many experienced and ex military pilot's chasing only a handfull of positions. Although it sounds immoral to be paying for your own training and giving the airlines a bargain basement of pilots's, at the end of the day you have to look after number one and make yourself attractive to prospective employer's.
It's easy for Pilot's who are employed or have previous experience to put down such schemes as they are also only looking after themselves worrying that this might drive down pay and conditions or even ruin their chances of a job. The people giving a negative response to this post have probably never paid for an hours flight training in their lives, who therefore think a job is their god given right and certainly don't want any, what they consider unfair competition from a self sponsored pilot already thousands of pounds in debt.
I was 32 when I finished my approved training course and embarked on a 320 rating only after exploring every avenue, and without it I probably would never have found a job due to my age and experience. I came up against the same negative hostile responses from fellow pilots who by the way were all employed by airlines but was given admiration from employers saying it showed determination and commitment which sometimes is in short supply from the whinging minority.

[FatBoySim]

fcom no it didn't show determination and commitment. The only admiration you got from your employer was here's another one adding money to our bottom line. Here's what happened, you did an approved course and you decided you wanted straight in the RHS of a shiny jet (because that is the course way it was sold to you) and you decided you were not going to do any of that menial stuff before getting in the RHS of a shiny jet. Your cheque book met our bean counters, a perfect marriage for you, end of.

[one post only!]

Sometimes the people giving a negative response do so because they realise it threatens their own T&C's and the T&C's of the pilots just entering flight training.

It is easy to critisise these schemes when you have a well paid full time job. It is also very easy to undermine the job security of full time current pilots when you are desperate for a job!!

Paying for a type rating shows determination and commitment. Also in my opinion it also shows you will work for less than current pilots. I would therefore quite like to employ you as when in the future I tell you to pay for your own food, bring in your own drinks etc you will do so because of your determination and commitment.

You feel that the whinging minority have no right to critisise for you going via pay2fly. Well sorry but the whinging minority have mortgages, families, lives that need funding. What right has anybody got to attack that just because they want a job and will pay for it. P2F threatens their jobs, their livelhoods and therefore their childrens security.

Don't be surprised if some people look after number one themselves (as you said to do!!!!) and therefore "whinge" at you for paying to fly!!! I wish everyone would whinge more and get together to get something done about stopping these schemes. EVERYONE would benefit then.

All I am trying to say is that people have the right to moan about these schemes and air their views. You have to accept that.

[Dreamshiner]

Camel:
Meanwhile in the good 'ol Usa ...trying to push for a MINIMUM of 1500 hours and full ATP for First Officers....main reason 'safety' .

If this goes through then perhaps our friends in JAA la land might think about it too,and kill of this pay to fly rubbish for ever.

While this has a certain degree of merit I fear it wouldn't happen in Europe due to the JAA being very much behind the MPL, the lack of GA provision and need compared to the US therefore reduced opportunities and finally the fact that in Europe we have a greater population density with half decent public transport linking these cities. Also the cost of aviation is much less in the US and the weather is generally better so its more feasible there to implement such a ruling.

I think its been proven that if someone with the right character is in the RHS whatever their hours total that they can be moulded into a very accomplished and capable pilot. BA Hamble guys did it and a multitude of other pilots have followed by attaining a jet job with 250 hours TT.

one post only:
It is easy to critisise these schemes when you have a well paid full time job. It is also very easy to undermine the job security of full time current pilots when you are desperate for a job!!

100% correct as is a lot of what fcom says too, we live in a time were striking a balance between these two points of views is drifting because the stance and feelings they evoke are becoming more and more polarised.

NSF:
Unless you are an easyJet Training Captain, which I suspect you are not, then you are simply not qualified to make the assertions you do

Come on Norman, play the game. You felt compelled to post in the BMi Baby thread when current pilots there felt the union is lacking despite not being an employee or directly affected but criticise 747JJ because he isn't directly involved in this sorry affair via Easy.

[Global Warrior]

Although it sounds immoral to be paying for your own training and giving the airlines a bargain basement of pilots's, at the end of the day you have to look after number one and make yourself attractive to prospective employer's


First off, buying a Type Rating and then going for an interview as a typed Pilot is slightly different to a P2F scheme. I understand the former and i deplore the later.

However, you are NOT looking after No.1 as when you finish the P2F scheme, you are back on the dole, ie back to where you started, but now you have a £40,000 yoke around your neck also.


The people giving a negative response to this post have probably never paid for an hours flight training in their lives, who therefore think a job is their god given right and certainly don't want any, what they consider unfair competition from a self sponsored pilot already thousands of pounds in debt.


Its precisely because people (like me) have paid for their own flight training, (for the purposes of obtaining a Licence) via the self improver route, for example, that we now feel aggrieved that some snot nosed little wannabe with a bank loan, feels its acceptable to try and leap frog us, and :mad: the system for everyone. There are plenty of Type Rated Pilots that are unemployed and a fair number because of the P2F scheme. And what happens after your P2F scheme runs out......... you are unemployed again because some other snot nosed wannabe with £40,000 to burn has just replaced you!!!!!

Im currently a Chief Pilot so you are definitely NOT affecting my T's & C's but if you ever pitch up for an interview with me and i find out you have been on one of these schemes........ you will politely, but firmly be asked to go home. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

GW

[BIGBAD]

having left bmi due to the downturn/ badly managed business I think that answers the question of doing a self sponsored type rating - DON'T. Unless you are doing a ryan air type scheme where there is a job at the end of it - doing it speculatively is madness

[favete linguis]

PTF or pay to work anywhere is just WRONG & IMMORAL.

The problem with the scheme offered by jon curd is the way he promote[d] it. Initially there was:Once you have been trained by easyJet, you will be a high quality commodity and we have several airlines waiting to sign you up as a direct entry First Officer with full salary and benefits.Followed a little later by:If easyJet do not take you on,
ATP have other partnership airlines
that will place you with a job!
Either way, its a
"Win - Win"
situation!Naturally there was a 'selection' process and I imagine those that went through the scheme felt they were working towards a job, after all that is what was offered.

In my opinion, this is not that far removed from what some airlines offer, except they pay from day 1. You are bonded, fail, then no job.

What is wrong is the wording of the advert. Now, apparently, the advertising reads along the lines that there are conditional contracts available for those that are at the highest level. Still, people will apply on the basis of this premise, as no doubt they will be reassured that they are of the highest level. I think this is alluded to by Wannabee24 earlier.

Those that completed the scheme in the understanding that successful completion meant employment can be forgiven for expecting to be in paid employment, on full salary and benefits, and that doesn't mean a 6 month contract. If not, then that alone should be enough to stop anyone applying to this rogue. A top TRE, great bloke, buddy, whatever you want to call him, but wasn't Bernard Madoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff) also held in such high regard?

So, unfortunately, there are people out there, who, for their own reasons, have completed on the understanding they were working towards a job and now find themselves unemployed, despite the promises. There are also those on the new scheme where they are fully aware there is no job on completion and maybe it is this group that should be the more embarrassed as they are now paying to fly with no tangible reward on completion. :ugh:

[Pilot Positive]

The people giving a negative response to this post have probably never paid for an hours flight training in their lives, who therefore think a job is their god given right and certainly don't want any, what they consider unfair competition from a self sponsored pilot already thousands of pounds in debt.

Wrong! Thats a hugely naive statement. There are a lot of guys - ex-Hamble chaps excluded (doffs hat) - that paid for their integrated/modular training and earnt their right to sit RHS on a jet. That right came from experience building, investing time in clubs and communities whether that be through flight instruction, glider tugging, banner-towing, aerial photography, cleaning aircraft for hours, single pilot operations etc.... The situation NOW is hardly comparable to that of the 90's when PTF schemes were not so rife and most did require some kind of higher minimums.

The whole point about this discussion is what has happened to the traditional route of earning the right to a position RHS and how those who, with no experience, have leapt frog the q have/will effect our future T&Cs (and possibly quality). And when I say our T&Cs that includes PTF pilots currently on the dole.

If economic capacity was very high (like 2/3 years ago) you could say that this discussion would be more about the quality of training rather than the right to earn a RHS - because extra pilots were needed. Its now not the case: Capacity has dropped off significantly and now there is an abundance of umeployed highly experienced pilots on the dole who cannot get jobs precisely because someone, potentially with no experience, is paying to do their job.

Perhaps there's a lesson here? We as pilots should be sticking together to protect the value of our jobs either European or worldwide - and yes that includes graduates/wannabees. Some professions require you to be a member of a union and wouldn't put up with this PTF nonesene whilst others require newbies to successfully demonstrate committment to the community before they can even get a job interview (e.g. lawyer, doctor, actor). Now there's a thought...:}

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

The very people howling at p2f are the very same who are talking of IPA or Unite at 5 bob a month to represent the interests of the pilot community. The only answer to this problem is universal union involvement with BALPA. That costs money (1% per month) and sadly many of you are not willing to pay that as you do not get your money's worth - allegedly. You cannot have it both ways. The excesses occurring at easyJet are directly attributable the unwillingness of a significant minority of pilots to back BALPA.

I have to also mention that right now the deals at easyJet are not quite as bad as was originally envisaged. Many of those pilots employed at £43/per block hour are flying 90+ hours a month and are doing not to badly out of it. Obviously some are still in the £1200/month initial period, but that is no worse than the old £1k/month for 6 months from CTC. It is important that people reading this debate have some grasp of the terms and conditions on offer - they are bad, but not as bad as some are advertising. I do not like it or agree with it in any way, but it is no different from what used to happen financially with young lads/lasses working to get a frozen ATPL, then working for £11/flying hour as a PPL instructor before working for £18k/year as a turboprop FO. Do not all start saying that I am agreeing with the situation because I am not. I am openly on record as saying that this was an issue to strike over, but that view was not held by sufficient of my colleagues to continue with. I stand by my view that the only people flying easyJet aircraft should be easyJet employees and not contractors. The continued behind-the-scenes manoeuvering of the company tyring to defeat our BALPA reps has not been well-received. Give us the support we need and we can win - sit on the sidlelines carping and 'waiting for BALPA to do something for a change' only invites further losses of terms and conditions.

[Global Warrior]

The very people howling at p2f are the very same who are talking of IPA or Unite at 5 bob a month to represent the interests of the pilot community.


Last time i checked....... i was a BALPA member :ugh::ugh::ugh:

What would really help is if the TRE's training theses guys, grew some gonads and refused to do so!!

[fade to grey]

Well NSF, you make me laugh with all your contradictions. So now a pay to fly partcipant is the same as someone working for low pay as an instructor ? That's a bit like saying lewis Hamilton should still get the same pay as he did when driving a cart ! Is not the whole point that you work your way up to the shiny jets and when you arrive there you expect proper T+Cs ?

[fcom]

Don't airline sponsored cadets go straight onto shiny new jets with no experience? The only difference is self sponsored to type rating have taken the time, money and trouble to invest in themselves. That takes a lot of balls and determination with no guarantee of any return,so don't knock these guys, it's dog eat dog out there and so good luck to you all.:ok:

[Global Warrior]

Don't airline sponsored cadets go straight onto shiny new jets with no experience? The only difference is self sponsored to type rating have taken the time, money and trouble to invest in themselves. That takes a lot of balls and determination with no guarantee of any return,so don't knock these guys, it's dog eat dog out there and so good luck to you all.


Airline cadets are a completely different compliment. They are EMPLOYEES from day 1 NOT, Contractors.

Theres a HUGE DIFFERENCE.......An airline cadet has a career..........a P2F cadet f***s other peoples careers as well as their own.

With regards to Airline Cadets, by the way, the whole employment process is monitored from interview and selection through to Type Rating and LPC/OPC. Therefore, anyone of these guys can be chopped for non performance at anytime.

A P2F candidate just has to have a credit rating!!!!!!

Personally i think that he airlines should inform the passengers that the flight will be crewed by someone who is paying to be their rather than an employee because i would exercise by democratic right and off load myself.

[Tubbs]

What does the CAA have to say about this? About four years ago I was aware of our company (Logie) being encouraged/told/asked by the CAA to employ more experienced pilots because we lost a whole load of our senior Captains and trainers during the hiring boom at BMIR and EZ, and the balance of hours was generally quite low.

If co-ordinated action through Balpa is impractical, perhaps Captains should consider taking unilateral measures at the relevant companies - i.e. go sick when rostered to fly with P2F amateurs. Someone also mentioned the press. Considering the way that the tabloids enthusiastically jump on and exaggerate any aviation safety story, surely the idea of Joe Public being flown to the med by non-professionals would merit a few column inches.

Tubbs, a concerned Balpa member

[clunckdriver]

A view from a different perspective,Untill recently I owned a few aviation companies, not once did I make potential pilots pay for their training, I did however ask for a hand shake comitment of two years productive work before they moved on to further glory, was I ever let down on this? you bet! but you know what, the pilots who pulled this kind of stunt were always the below average ones and I wasnt too sorry to see most of them go. their future employers who thought they were getting a type rated "bargain" soon found out that you cant judge a book by its cover. I now see that these wretched Pay To Type Rate/Pay To Fly scams are coming to North America, untill those of you entering the industry put a stop to this crap your pay scales/status/working conditions will keep going down the crapper, I for one cant figure how your much vaunted EU workers rights leglislation let this go on, maybe mandating the size of a cucumber is more important! Tomorow I will fly our last remaining aircraft, in private certification for a private company, my F/O will make more in a week than most of you make in a month, and I paid for her training! Thenk God I retired from the heavy metal when I did!

[Pilot Positive]

With regards to Airline Cadets, by the way, the whole employment process is monitored from interview and selection through to Type Rating and LPC/OPC. Therefore, anyone of these guys can be chopped for non performance at anytime.

Exactamundo - From what I recall only a few of the initial Hamble entrants passed through their course onto the airline now known as BA - guys were often chopped. Tough and exacting standards, NOT cash, were required. :D

The benefit of this has filtered down to us today in the form of some of the better Captains in the world and a good comparable safety environment. It can hardly be said that the PTF/contractor culture will contribute to the future of our industry in the same way. :ugh:

[james1013]

P2F is a never-ending debate on pprune, and I'd guess that the majority of pilots regardless of experience, status etc are against it. Even those that do it must surely prefer to keep £30K in the bank or are there more millionaires around than I think? If the P2Fs are not millionaires then the minute they agree to pay for a TR they should fail selection on the grounds of mental instability (a bit like the paradox in Catch 22 for trying to get home from the front line, if you've ever read it).

The Bad Karma bit - what's need is a signicant accident or series of accidents involving low hours P2F finding themselves in command in difficult circumstances and the AAIB report pointing to lack of FO experience being a major contributing factor. If this comes to pass then EU-OPS could possibly legislate against such folk occupying the RHS which would end this system. CTC, OAA etc would then find it hard work (impossible) selling the promise of 18 month course to jet job in a few easy stages (first stage being "can we have £65K please....").

"The economy stupid" (I'm not calling anyone stupid, it's a famous political quote) - If accidents don't do it then P2F will go away during the good times when/if the tables are turned and airlines are begging anyone with the basic qualifications to occupy the RHS.

Those 2 ideas might seem contradictory e.g. 'if EU-OPS set minimum hours then during the good times airlines will be short on pilots', I say bring it on, the airlines can't have it all their own way, during these good times they will be making money more easily so make them pay a premium for their crew, e.g. create a competative environment whereby pilots can dictate terms. This would also work during lean times as those worthy of a decent paid flying job would more than likely keep it (all be it reduced hours to spread the work about) but without the threat of P2F buying their job and making them redundant then the pilot world would be a happier place.

This would create more structure to career development as low hours fATPL could for example get a FI ticket to build hours/airmanship, FI jobs would be available for them as more experienced FIs would be sucked up into the FO jobs. Whereas now good FIs with hours are being leapfrogged by P2F and therefore there are fewer FI opportunities so less scope for the low hours fATPL and hence the temptation to P2F.....it's a self perpetuating mess.

Like I say it won't change while legislation allows it, the economy makes it a buyers markets for manpower and of course none it works without P2Fs who are prepared to fuel the fire.

What I'd like to know is if anyone on here thinks anything else could change it? e.g. people power, forming a group against it, lobbying someone (God knows who), ambushing young men as they walk into TRO with a big cheque....any suggestions? e.g. is there more positive action that could be taken as opposed to ranting on pprune?

(for context I'm a ex-integrated fATPL finished in aug 2008, now earn pennies as an FI teaching PPL on SEP, no money for P2F, lots of less capable friends now flying jets as they have more capable bank accounts than me :sad:).

[Pilot Positive]

a bit like the paradox in Catch 22 for trying to get home from the front line


i.e. WW2 pilots attempting to get out of flying missions on the basis of insanity. Of course, to fly the missions they flew, you'd have to be insane in the first place. Catch 22.

If only someone had pointed this out to me waaaay back - I would have gone into accountancy instead... :hmm:

But seriously (and endorsing NSF's earlier point)...if you do want to do something then perhaps joining BALPA or the IPA and making your views known to them might help? If all the anti-PTF were to unilaterally communicate their displeasure then it could be a powerful single voice of concern. How that then would translate to the operators would be the interesting part...

[Global Warrior]

What I'd like to know is if anyone on here thinks anything else could change it? e.g. people power, forming a group against it, lobbying someone (God knows who), ambushing young men as they walk into TRO with a big cheque....any suggestions? e.g. is there more positive action that could be taken as opposed to ranting on PPRuNe?


Quickest way to kill it is for TRE's to refuse to train them, ideally at the TRTO but if not, when they arrive at ops for day 1 of their training.

There was a statistic banded about recently, i think it was in the Log mag and it went something like this

In the USA, the regional carriers are responsible for 75% of the flying and 100% of fatal accidents. (Hopefully someone will produce the exact statistic.)

The regionals have a constant supply of new and inexperienced Pilots taking the RHS...... presumably, there are people that are relatively inexperienced taking the LHS, flying with an inexperienced occupant in the RHS. A recipe for disaster........ and the above statistic seems to verify it.

If you now add, no pay / low pay to the equation, potentially you have inexperienced crews flying, some of which are possibly holding down 2 jobs to pay off their debts and are arriving at work fatigued, poor and desparate to make ends meet.

On top of its many other dangers, P2F is a way of eroding the experience levels in the flight deck. Its simply NOT acceptable for an airline, bean counter, DFO or any other person to justify this with, "well we have an experienced Training Captain on board" :=

[Superpilot]

If I pay for (some) T-Shirts how many of you will join me next month to picket out side BAlpa HQ? I'm dead serious folks Jim from BALPA is not getting the message! Time for something different. Let me know of your availability for next month all those that are interested. :ok:

[Callsign Kilo]

So how do PTF LT schemes end?

A spate of accidents involving fatalities??

We already have a documented incident involving a PTF pilot. The AAIB listed a poor training history from CPL instruction onwards, an initial failure of the pre-entrance assessment for the SSTR and PTF course on a B737 sim (subsequent assessment was offered on the A320 which was 'passed'), continual training issues involving the landing manoeuvre as part of the A320 TR, a failure of the initial LST requiring subsequent retraining, failure of the initial base check and return to the simulator for further retraining and continued difficulties with the final phase of the landing manoeuvre when on line.

Result 'Severely damaged main gear'

Recommendations - The Greek CAA review the performance of the PAPI system at Kos Airport, Mytravel review their airfield brief for Kos and that LTCs should be trained on a baulked landing recovery technique.

[angelorange]

NSF, is that really you posting or has someone hijacked your pprune callsign?

A year ago you were typing fairly sensible stuff on here , now you seem to be blinded by what BALPA has actually achieved re: EZY TRSS, CTC Cadets and now P2F. The Log contains advertising for P2F and most TREs who train these folk with more money/credit than sense are members of BALPA! They have done absolutely nothing about CTC practices.

Stop bashing other unions and start refusing to fly with P2F. maybe get one of Superpilot's T shirts and wear it on the flight deck and through the departure lounge.

James 1013 has the right perspective re: FI jobs and why wanabees can't get in or don't want to go that route. The other reason is the loss of the 700h CPL route.

BA cadets were company sponsored all the way and proved that with good training, proper support and backing a 250h junior FO could make it to Command (but not in year 3 after a few hundred more hours i.e: once he had served 10-20years learning the ropes!). Many of those cadets started on BAE ATPs - not all went to 747s straight away and if they did they were sent back down to smaller jets to get commands.

P2F is a sick joke and those who support it directly or indirectly (company rosters you to fly with one) are shooting us all in the foot.

[Global Warrior]

And....... dont forget....... when these guys fly..... they are flying on your licence....... not theirs. If they :mad: up..... you kiss bye bye to your earning potential!!!!

GW

[camel]

Superpilot

The t-shirt march might just have legs ...99.9 pct of the paying public have no idea that their 'grizzled veteran' up front might just be some rich kid actually paying to sit in the hot seat ...

I believe in the UK it is still possible to organise a protest and march all the way to the gates of 10 Downing Street,London...and hand in a written protest to the Government.

You could probably even get some of the more 'political ' newspapers interested in giving it a fair deal of coverage in this election year ...dont worry they will sort out suitable headlines !

The media has a massive amount of power in the UK..get them on board and enjoy the ride...dont forget the shades tho ! :ok:

[fcom]

Just remember folks the CAA don't just give out Atpl's like cookies,they have to be earned and have to work just as hard as any airline sponsored cadet . The type rating is the same standard and the only difference is they weren't fortuanate enough to get it all handed on a plate. If these Pilot's don't cut the mustard they simply do not pass the course or the line training,simple as that. If your against low time pilots flying large commercial aircraft that's fine, then British Airways should also follow this route as it cuts both ways.On the other hand if it's good for BA the same should follow for self sponsored,:ugh: the only difference is the BA guys have been through a selection procedure oh and a 2 day RT course so they can all sound the same!

[Microburst2002]

fcom you are wrong.

In many other cadet programs (other that ptf) the process is totally different:

1st_ selection
2nd_ cadet program
3rd_ passing all tests and exams
4th_ passing the TR

If you failed to meet the minimum requirements in steps 2,3, or 4...
Good Bye.

If you did OK...
5th_ hired with a permanent contract

The ptf programs that you advocate follow a different process. To begin with, there is no selection as such, other than money or is it?. Then, getting the licenses is very easy, nowadays, to be honest. Or isn't? Forrest Gump could do it in less than two years. The TRTOs involved rarely fail a pilot, or do they? And then you get (but this is not guaranteed) a temporary contract for 6 months, after which, next "candidates" will come, and you will have to pay your sims to remain current, etc..

You cannot compare!

In the proper cadet programs, cadets were the raw materials that airlines require to make the product: pilots.

In nowadays programs, cadets are the customers of a number of bloodsuckers, one of which are greedy airlines that want to magically turn costs into revenues.

The best pilots I know came through cadet programs. Very talented people. Very good training. Superb results.

You cannot compare!

[Pilot Positive]

I refer the above honourable gentleman to the post made some pages ago...

.....only a few of the initial Hamble entrants passed through their course onto the airline now known as BA - guys were often chopped. Tough and exacting standards, NOT cash, were required.

These days, cash is King it seems. :hmm: Not good for future safety. :=

[Wannabe24]

NSF,

I enormously respect you but your views about J Curd are misplaced. Put frankly. Right now, the only way I can get into easyJet is to hand over £25k to a man who lied to my face and to others. I could go and pay EagleJet less than that for more hours on type (if I had the inclination). However as eJ's doors are only open to those who have come from ATP Fame or CTC Flexicrew (who are also disadvantaged right now), I can never be employed by your airline no matter how good an A320 pilot I am. That's where the shame begins.

[Global Warrior]

Put frankly. Right now, the only way I can get into easyJet is to hand over £25k to a man who lied to my face and to others


Actually wannabee24 there may be another way. Anyone with a 320 rating and 500 hours on type could always offer themselves as Captains at 2/3rds of the current pay for that position. Think about how much that will save any airline.

Sure the current incumbents will bitch like stink and demand that BALPA get involved and will complain about falling standards, safety implications and erosion of experience levels. Of course they could grow some gonads now and stand up for their fellow employees but they wont so they wont be able to use those excuses when it happens to them.

But the same TRE's that train the P2F candidates at the TRTO's are the same TRE's at the airline so they would never sign you off as they are protecting their own little patch. Its a disgrace.

Used to be the more experience you had the more chance you had of getting a job. Now the less experience you have the more likely you are to find a job...................... so pay to fly must be bad thing as it gives you more experience which makes you less employable :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Pilot Positive]

Used to be the more experience you had the more chance you had of getting a job. Now the less experience you have the more likely you are to find a job


Possibly and more like: Now the less experience you have and the more money you have the more likely you are to find a job

Albeit for that amazing, command building, experience of 200 hours. ;)

[M80]

Just remember folks the CAA don't just give out Atpl's like cookies,they have to be earned and have to work just as hard as any airline sponsored cadet . The type rating is the same standard and the only difference is they weren't fortuanate enough to get it all handed on a plate. If these Pilot's don't cut the mustard they simply do not pass the course or the line training,simple as that. If your against low time pilots flying large commercial aircraft that's fine, then British Airways should also follow this route as it cuts both ways.On the other hand if it's good for BA the same should follow for self sponsored, the only difference is the BA guys have been through a selection procedure oh and a 2 day RT course so they can all sound the same!

Whilst the basic premise of your argument is true - all pilots must pass the same CAA/JAA regulated course, the conclusion is flawed. The standards for a type are the bare minimum and should never be the goal. An airline investing in training will contribute to raising the standard above the bare minimum as they have the luxury of constantly selecting the best cadets and pushing them to a higher standard. Think of this as similar to the MEL and MMEL. Having a higher company standard is always preferable.

No one is claiming that some guys who do a SSTR aren't as capable as a sponsored cadet - but it would be impossible to guarantee an SSTR guy has reached a higher level than the basic requirements of a type rating primarily as money is a driving force.