pilot/observer

[superscotty]

I have wanted to be a pilot all my life. I applied to the RAF, passed all the tests and was then told at 6ft 4" I was too tall for pilot and got offered ABM(Aerospace battle manager). I still wanted to fly so applied to the navy who have higher height restrictions. I have just passed my AIB but have been offered observer not pilot. I have 2 questions: Is there a chance of me being able to train as a pilot further down the line if I accept observer and what is the role of observer like, will I get hands on flying experience.
Thanks

[airborne_artist]

I have just passed my AIB but have been offered observer not pilot. I have 2 questions: Is there a chance of me being able to train as a pilot further down the line if I accept observer and what is the role of observer like, will I get hands on flying experience.

Just possible, but unlikely you'll get the chance to go from O to P once trained. Lookers need brains, but potential stick monkeys are tuppence a bucketful. Once trained you won't get any stick time except possibly in Lynx, and it won't be log-able.

[Tourist]

Did you pass for both pilot and observer?
If so, and you really want to be a pilot, then turn the job down. The jobs are not the same at all.
Observer may be a very valuable and demanding job, but it ain't piloting, and there is no point pining/whining about being in the wrong job for the next 16 yrs.
Whilst it is possible to switch from observer to pilot, as shown by one current Harrier bloke and one in the pipeline, it is a vanishingly small likelihood. You would have more chance calling their bluff and saying "no, I will try again for pilot next year" especially in the current recruiting climate.
I would disagree with airborne about lynx being the best place for observers to get "hands on".
I would say Baggers and Pingers are the most likely to get to play with the sticks, though playing is all it would be. You wouldn't get any real training of any serious nature.
Don't accept second best with your ambitions, or you might as well join the RAF!:E

[Tlam999]

Concur entirely with Tourist, Scotty.

Baggers and Pingers will give you more hands-on time... and yes, it's called the Senior Service for a reason (incoming!!!!):E

At the end of the day, Pilots and Observers fulfill equally important roles in the FAA. However, I have known many Os who have beaten themselves up throughout their careers because they didn't hold out for the job they really wanted. A tiny number have managed to cross over through a great deal of lobbying and an awful lot of luck. But for each O-P convertee I know (3 in total) I know at least 2 Os who've become Airline Pilots on leaving the service early... and at least 3 Obs students who've called the Navy's bluff about leaving unless they transfer to P and have found themselves back in civvy street tout suite.

Embarking on Flying training is a long and arduous task. It's often described as "fulfilling" by those who've done it - but remember that they went in to it wanting to do it in the first place. I know I'd have been thoroughly miserable in Lawschool because I'd have despised the work; but there are plenty of Lawyers out there who've loved every minute of it.

PM me if you need more info about the O role, and indeed if you'd like a visit to CU/VLN to see just what the job involves. It's a great line of work, Oberver....ing, but one you must be keen on doing and for the right reasons.

[Radar Command T/O]

I would agree with Tourist on this one - both Merlin and SK7 Observers have Left Hand Seat qualifications, but they are used for safety reasons if the aircraft is being flown single pilot. There is the opportunity to get "hands-on", but it is very much on an ad-hoc basis if the sortie profile permits it - certainly not enough to satisfy any lingering pilot aspiratons.

Long and short of it - Observer is a very rewarding job, but it's a long and demanding training pipeline and not for someone who's heart's not really in it. If you've got your heart set on being a pilot, hold out for that.

[airborne_artist]

What were your P and O aptitude scores on FATS?

Less than 130 for P and your chances of a place are slim. If your O is much higher than your P then you'll always be cast as a potential Obs, I suspect.

[Talk Reaction]

The forces are not the place to be if you're not doing what you want. In many ways it would be worse to spend every working day sat next to the bloke with the job you want and putting up with all the downsides of military life, rather than doing something completely different. Say no to Obs if you want pilot and consider trying again in the future, but things are likely to get more competitive I'm afraid.

Good luck, don't compromise

[superscotty]

Thanks for all your answers.

My FATS were 143 for pilot and 153 for Observer.

I'm thinking of saying no to observer and risking going all out for pilot. Its what to do if that fails.

[oggers]

superscotty

I know the dilemma. I passed the AIB 3 times - :ouch: - before I got the offer I wanted :ok:

I think the previous posters are about right.

The quick answer is if you really really want to be a pilot in the RN then turn down the offer of observer and go back to the AIB. Just remember that observer is a good job too. Feel free to PM me if you think my own experience of selection and beyond might be of any use to you.

oggers

[Greenleader]

Superscotty - stick it out for Pilot! I flew helos and jets in the RN, never had an observer in an aircraft I was flying - pound for pound, I'd rather take the fuel! ;)

All banter aside - as others have mentioned, you have to really want to do the job in order to get through the training for either P or O, so gather the facts about Observer, see it it's a job you might like to do, and then say no thanks, I want to be a Pilot!!!

Good luck.

[mrdeux]

I don't understand the scoring system you mention, but it seems you have passed for both but with the O score higher than P. Having sat on selection boards for another navy, that fits in with what they have offered you. I wonder too, if at interview a passing comment was made along the lines of 'if we can't offer you a pilot spot, would you consider an observer position'. Saying yes to that meant that you would only be offered an O spot, irrespective of P test results.

Is it possible to change from O to P? Well, I don't know what the RN is like, but it has certainly been done in the RAN. I was an observer on the Wessex and Seaking, but later got a pilots course and flew the A4G.

[Aerouk]

I'm not sure I could sit as an OBS while another person I'm working with is doing the job I really want to do.

[spoz]

Come join the RAN, our Os (in Seahawks) get stick time once they become TACCOs, including DLP.

[I'm Off!]

Superscotty - simple, if you don't want to be an Observer don't do it. There will NOT be an opportunity to change later, and you will NOT get stick time in a Lynx and you will regret it if being a Pilot is what you really want.

How do I know this...? Because I was in exactly your position a number of years ago. I passed better for Obs than Pilot, and was offered Obs. Went through the same agonising decision, but turned it down. I went to Uni instead and joined immediately afterwards - as a Pilot. Again I passed better for Obs but was clear that I would not accept it, so they offered me Pilot. Did it work out? Well, I ended up as a QHI and recently started a job as Standards, so I'd say so!!

The long and short of it is that 16 yrs is a long time, it had better be doing something that you want to do. Be honest with them, they'll respect you more for it.

[peppermint_jam]

Apologies scotty for the slight thread creep, but i'm sure i've met Pilots of your height before. What are the official min/max height requirements?

[neildo]

Not sure if there is a definitive and restrictive "max height", but as of Feb of this year the max sitting height was 990mm, buttock to heel 1200mm and buttock to knee of 660mm...in their anthropometric device of course, not exactly easy to measure at home.

[Pontius Navigator]

If your seated height is too great you could be too high in the cockpit. If your thigh length is too big you risk losing your knees on ejection.

While there are many aircraft where size is not an issue the Service do not recruit people with a limited range of employments. I am sure you will have rejected a number of difference cars as you don't fit them. I know I have.

Years ago, before we were so exact on measurements, there was one nav who was posted to Javelins. Only on the OCU did they discover he could not fit. He obviously had great aptitude as an RIO for I next met him as a flt cdr (that was exceptional) on F4s (and that was exceptional too).

One Andy Mac chugherhew (:))

[superscotty]

Thanks for all your advise. I asked to be reconsidered for pilot and providing I pass the cockpit measurement next week I join as a PILOT in April. :ok: Keep your fingers crossed for me everyone.

[airborne_artist]

Good luck.

I used to spend a lot of time in the horse world. It was well known that to get a pony in under a specified height (lots of competitions are in height bands) you'd not give the poor beast any water for 24 hours before being officially measured. Can't condone animal cruelty, but what you do to yourself is your choice...

[LogieBear]

SS, Good luck young man. May you achieve your goal.

[NutLoose]

Get up early then, lying down your spine relaxes and you get taller, throughout the day gravity takes over and you shrink :)

[northern_monkey]

As strange as it sounds - take a rucksack full of bricks (or something else heavy) and wear it for as long as possible prior to being measured - it supposedly compresses your spine slightly. Apparently it works! Good Luck!

[BANANASBANANAS]

I did it the other way round Scotty. I applied to FAA as pilot and was 'persuaded' to add observer to my application form. Duly passed both pilot and observer aptitude testing and offered observer. I did call their bluff and turned down observer on the understanding that my name would be put forward again as pilot and observer (wouldn't let me remove observer from application) but that there was a risk I could be offered neither.

After a few weeks, a brown envelope arrived through the post advising that I had been offered observer again.

In the meantime I had applied to RAF and was offered pilot by them so no contest really.

Moral of the story - if you 100% know you will be unhappy as an observer, don't do it. Stick to your guns and tell them it's pilot or nothing.

Good luck whichever way you decide to go.