New London Heliport

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

Why in London can you not build a bigger and newer heliport. It seems that your authorities do not want to progress. What happens when the first BA609s come onto the market - will they go to LCY?

In Stockholm we installed a floating pontoon for downtown traffic which we call the Helipad 'Gamla Stan'.

Your 'Battersea' keeps changing owners and now you are making it into a hotel? Developer hands over Hotel Verta and heliport to Von Essen - 11/02/2010 - Caterer Search (http://www.caterersearch.com/Articles/2010/02/11/332227/developer-hands-over-hotel-verta-and-heliport-to-von-essen.htm)

Will Britain ever develop a world class heliport in central London?

[Basher577]

Nope..........

[Hell Man]

YBB: Is this Stockholm's downtown heliport?

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/47951.jpg

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

Yes hellman this is the Gamla Stan heliport in Stockholm shown here receiving SE-HUC a Bell 206L III owned by Arlanda Helikopter who fly in there often to drop off and collect city passengers.

[Hell Man]

Its .... so big!

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

We have much fewer movements than London.

[Hell Man]

That's because your heliport can only take one light single at a time!

[[email protected]]

That is a world class heliport??????????? I've seen bigger liferafts!!

[ShyTorque]

When I first began flying helicopters, IIRC, there was a barge helipad on the Thames, up near where HMS Belfast is now moored.

Battersea is being improved and is much better than the one pictured in Sweden.

It certainly does need some competition though, the fees are ridiculously high.

The main issue is obtaining planning permission. Unfortunately in UK, helicopters are seen by many as a nuisance and an unnecessary plaything of the rich. The previous Lord Mayor, Red Ken, would apparently have preferred to have banned all of them from the Capital. :ugh:

[zorab64]

Not sure what's being implied here by Y&BB - the Stockholm barge raft can hardly be called a world-class heliport and is unlikely to have created much planning concern, given the many hectares of water around the approach &/or departure.
The Thames is a very different kettle of fish - admitedly it would be nice to see some competition but anyone planning one will have quite an interesting planning ride!

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

I am admitting that Gamla Stan is just a floating landing pad, the point I was making is that we installed a facility downtown.

The UK has quite a large corporate helicopter population (compared to many other European countries) and I understand the Battersea heliport has a large number of movements.

I was thinking that with the Olympics (2012) that London could be a showcase for a world class heliport, perhaps something designed with the BA609 in mind as well.

I know in the past there has been opposition to heliport development but things are changing - traffic congestion alone should justify a new facility.

I was told you have British Helicopter Advising Board and British Helicopter Club and very many politicians (Earl Cathness) and others who support helicopter industry.

The point I am making is that world class helicopter port in London would attract world attention and maybe make it easier for other European countries (including Sweden) to develop similar models. Does it not hurt economic development if people cannot easily get into and out of capital centers?

[JimL]

YBB,

Everyone understands the point you are making; however, the example you cite is not an appropriate benchmark.

It doesn't meet recognised standards for marking nor is it large enough for the Bell that is is photographed with. It is not even clear what loading is provided as limitations are not shown - as is required.

Jim

[helispeediii]

london will never get a heliport coz the those that could influence it are to thick to realize that it could be an asset to the city/west end parliment etc could also be used for pleasure at off peak times battersea is in the wrong place and the fee are very high much better when westland owned it helispeediii i think the above is a fair view of the situation

[EESDL]

Helispeediii
Was that 'Yoof Text' you used to send that post?

A new heliport will become a reality when real estate prices dictate......simples

[Hilico]

The only helicopters I've seen at LCY were the Met Police and Dennis Kenyon, on the day of a display. However (and I had this argument with one of the managers) LCY was turboprops only...until the owner bought a jet. Now we just have to hope he buys a 135 or somesuch, and then good sense will prevail.

[Helinut]

I am afraid that the problem with LCY and heles is that dreaded word "planning" again. Generally when it appears it should usually be prefaced with the phrase "refusal to do proper".

I understand that when the original planning permission was granted for LCY a condition was included that helicopters were prohibited to use the airport. The airport owners had a real financial incentive to break out of the "turbo-prop only" FW limitation, but there is not the same incentive for heles. Indeed, if you look at the other London airports, generally they have made it more and more difficult for heles to use them, rather than easier.

With its limited runway and taxi capacity, LCY often seems to be operating to capacity at least in peak times. I am not sure that those who hold the purse strings there would welcome the addition of a "troublesome" few heles.

If there is a solution to this, I suspect that it lies in finding a well-located separate site, which above all else has great/short transport links to the places that rich people want to go to.

The "planning" problem remains, and while there are so few sites in London, any one proposed site will be difficult to argue for, against the eco-lobby. If Ken Livingston had remained as Mayor, I suspect we would not routinely be able to fly over Central London at all.

I wonder how much the honourable s*****bags at Westminster will use heles in the upcoming election campaign: I suspect less than in previous campaigns in the current climate?

[tonge]

Who owns the site opposite LCY, directly across the dock, where the "Red Bull" air race runway is located?

Its already got 2 or 3 helicopter landing pad's painted on it, as used by the Met and even the President of the USA.

Could this not be developed?? Right next to a DLR station, the roads are not too bad as well ;)

Tonge

[DeeKeeGee]

The situation for a new London Heliport gets worse. The Mayor in his latest version of the Replacement London Plan actually says "Development proposals for heliports should be resisted, other than for emergency services." He has moved away from the position of Red Ken that allowed for one in east london if environmental issues could be addressed.

Unfortunately this now means that if the replacement London Plan is adopted the chances of London getting a first class heliport will be virtually non-existent. What with the ConDem alliance opposing aviation (particularly in the SE), and the complete failure to get planning permission for other heliports in London (River Thames helistop dismissed on appeal in 1985, City of London heliport dismissed on appeal in 1991, the Thames Heliport plc thrown out through Court of Appeal in 1996, Harrods helipad lawful development certificate dismissed in 2001), it looks like Mayor Boris (or is it his deputy Sir Simon Milton) will now scupper any further proposals.

Add to this the fact that Wandsworth have set up their own website to encourage people to object to noise from the London heliport, and the Fight the Flights legal challenge against the increase in ATMs at LCY which if successful will scupper their expansion, whilst if it fails LCY have made it clear that they have got all the permission they need and they do not want (and could not accommodate) helicopters.

Who would be a planner involved in promoting aviation these days. Would the last person flying out of London please ensure that the tarmac is rolled up once they leave...

[Nige321]

If Sir Norman Foster had his way...

http://www.modeltek.com/Heliport1.jpg
http://www.modeltek.com/Heliport2.jpg

[Special 25]

There is a helipad on the West side of the Isle of Dogs. Used to be called Vanguard Heliport but not sure if it still has that name - Still, quite limited for size.

Google Maps (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=51.490556,-0.024086&spn=0.002228,0.005681&t=h&z=18)

[firebird_uk]

What with the ConDem alliance opposing aviation (particularly in the SE)...

But not opposing being flown around in a 109 whilst running their election campaign a few months back.....

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

The Norman Foster proposal post #20 seems ideal, not too big (hopefully less trouble) and near your city centre.

Why don't UK operators get together to make effort to push for development until solution is found or is there just not that much demand?

[ShyTorque]

Good that folk are finding alternative helicopter landing sites, alternatives to Battersea are definitely required.

However, non-AOC aircraft landing there will need a Rule 5(3)(c) permission from the CAA and I suspect they will allow twin engined helis only. Also, as it lies about 4.5 nm east of LHR I can see delays being commonplace; standard separation from inbound fixed wing will be required.

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

Please ShyTorque do you mind to explain breifly the Rule 5,3,c what it involves?

Thank you.

YBB

[ShyTorque]

Rule 5(3)(c) of the Air Navigation Order is also known as the 1,000 foot rule.

In UK, aircraft are not normally allowed (are prohibited) from being flown over a congested area below 1,000 feet above the nearest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 600 metres.

The London (Heathrow) Control zone is seen as a congested area so to avoid breaking the law, an application has to be made to the CAA for permission to land. It costs £108 for the application. Conditions are always laid down in the permission, usually specifying aircraft performance minima. A recent one I obtained also disallowed me from flying members of the public to or from the site.

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

Thank you for explaining this.

Does this mean that this new laning site as the polo club requires a permission from your aviation body for every landing and that you can then be told not to carry passengers?

YBB

[ShyTorque]

AOC holders can be exempted from the requirement; otherwise yes, it depends what the CAA demand, having looked at the request.

[Savoia]

.
For those acquainted with the access offereded in countries such as the US, Japan or even here in Italy, the London landing restrictions (a failure of the BHA, CAA and city planners) is as depressing as it is frustrating.

Aside from the loss of service to passengers, the London scenario breeds a lack of efficiency which, through the increasingly-integrated EU, could easily spread to other metropolitan centres across Europe. As originally stated somewhere near the start of this thread, London would do well to become an example of landing facilitation instead of the opposite.

The Ham Polo Club site is a welcome addittion I am sure but, as ShyTorque mentioned, it is some distance from the city centre (further than Battersea) and I therefore can't see how it will be of much help. They would have tried negotiating something with the Hurlingham Club which, if memory serves, (from my days in the City) was not far from Putney Bridge (at least a little closer!).

http://www.thamesluxurycharters.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/london-thames-map.jpg

Thames Map - Richmond's 'Ham Polo Club' not even appearing!

To be sincere, if it is to be of effect, a new city heliport should be situated somewhere between Westminster and Blackfriars Bridge but, you have a bigger problem on your hands in the UK than space and planning permission - apathy!

You can't tell me that if the BHA assembled a capable team backed by the active support of interested operators, and began a comprehensive crusade to address this issue and which involved (if necessary) providing demonstrations of the helicopter's usefulness along with convincing presentations of the multiple benefits of improved helicopter access - that they would achieve nothing! Education, political marketing and perseverence can win through.

What some people fail to see (BHA/CAA) is that by giving up on London's helicopter access the industry is actually striking itself in the tail because it will become known by operators and passengers alike that city access is limited and the latter will merely seek alternative solutions.

The fact of the matter is that better city access for helicopters could boost operator business, contribute to the city's economy and offer important access/egress during emergency scenarios.

While Police and Ambulance aircraft have gone a long way to shed the image of helicopters as the preserve of high net worth individuals, there remains a perception at the grass roots level, along with an envy at official levels, which still sees helicopters in this way and the BHA (and others) need to address this.

Take city and CAA officials and uninitiated company executives on demonstration flights, make presentations to local residents groups (invite them to operator bases and give them a day out) and remind them that a helicopter landing facility near their home = improved emergency response times and a potential 'way out' in a disaster situation.

If BHA and others were to latch onto this task with your 'bulldog' determination they could come through because what I know in this life is that if you are determined enough .. anything is possible.

Maybe UK operators don't want the additional business and they are happy to see things stagnate the way they are. What if improved access really could boost business! And it could.

Finally - The answer may not come in the form of a cleared plot along the banks of the Thames, in fact, the most enterprising solution (in my view) would be a slightly longer term (and perhaps more ambitious) appraoch whereby the battle begins with gaining the active backing of the City of London, CAA and others. With their support, policy should be developed for new buildings encouraging sufficiently sized landing pads (presumably space for two aircraft) in as many different locations as possible. Older buildings, to which realistic modifications could be made, should be offered a development grant to undertake construction for an approved landing pad. Such a grant could be justified by government under 'security' measures.

With the CAA's cooperation these pads should be allowed to operate safely (but without cumbersome restrictions). Building owners can be offered a 'helipad operating manual' (perhaps prepared by the CAA/BHA) offering help and advice and demonstrating how such a facility could contribute towards building revenues while offering added safety.

Local workers/residents could draw comfort from knowing that in an emergency situation there is a nearby entry and departure point for prospective assistance and lastly, passengers would finally be offered a selection of sights across the city from which to chose from thereby enhancing helicopter service efficiency and doubtless boosting business.

Dream? Perhaps. But, it could be implemented by the right people. A few interested operators could collaborate to throw in a handful of money for the BHA to recruit to full time time to make this happen - if they wanted!

S.

[ShyTorque]

Sad to note that even Battersea Heliport doesn't appear on that map, let alone Ham!

The notion that helicopters are the preserve of the rich is perpetuated by the lack of "public" facilities for helicopters, keeping the prices sky high (no pun intended).

[JimBall]

As an industry, we have to be aware of the noise problems. The operation of certain larger types of helicopter at Battersea inevitably causes most of the problems in the local community - and the communities under the heli routes.

Battersea has its own inherent regulatory problems which require a particular performance profile. That profile adds to noise on take off and landing. And the "residentualising" of areas around the heliport (which were previously industrial) has added to the problems. Much as I might enjoy the smell of burnt A1 - I can assure you that the residents of apartments near the heliport are sick of it and the noise the burners make!

So, if there is to be a future of helicopter landings in London, it will have to be quieter, less intrusive and more community-friendly. Operators, owners, industry body and regulator need to work as one with one aim.

[ShyTorque]

Jim,

I fly as neighbourly as possible but I'm afraid I have only a little sympathy with the local resident noise complainers. They obviously weren't sharp enough to realise that a heliport has helicopters. Why would anyone buy an apartment in the adjacent area if they don't like the noise? Especially those who bought apartments from the same company that owned the heliport at the time.

When I first flew into the heliport in the 1970s it was owned by Westland and the surrounding area was industrial.

[nizwa]

Does anyone know what arrangements are being made for helicopter transport to the Olympics - if any.

[AdamFrisch]

It's a sad state that the finance capital of Europe has got such embarrassing facilities.

On a recent trip to NY, I counted:

4 Heliports on Manhattan alone. Many more in the greater vicinity.

Not only that - there's 7, yes SEVEN, seaplane bases/landings in greater NY city. You can even plop down on the Hudson and taxi up to the Wall St heli/seaport and let people off (as long as you have a 3-blade prop for noise abatement). Imagine trying to land a seaplane on the Thames and taxiing up the river - you'd be in jail before you'd dock, probably.

[nizwa]

There is or was an approved area for seaplane landings in the Greenwich area. Perhaps this should be investigated. I wonder if landing a helicopter on a barge in a designated seaplane landing area requires planning permission! would it still count as a landing on water?

[helispeediii]

sorry guys but if we cant get a heliport for the olimpics, it aint going to happen they could not get one at canary wharf when that was built 20= years ago,sad aint it, was a time i ve done it many time in a single going east on h4 asked thames if i could do a 360 round canary wharf ,only one tower then !nearly always got the nod even when lucy was there ,:ugh:bet you get the no now , we need a heliport in central london, between westminster and the city, mind you there quite a handy one at the end of the mall the big house with the 76 in the garden wonder if they got planning, keep flying helispeediii

[idle stop]

Re the Olympics, earlier this year the Department for Transport commissioned a study into helicopter usage in and around London over the summer period in 2012. The study was carried out by Atkins plc (an engineering company and consultancy) who had previously carried out a study for DfT into airport capacity in the South East for the Olympics. During the helicopter study, for which Atkins co-opted a helicopter consultant, industry was widely consulted. The report, which has not yet been published, is expected to recommend that government decisions (by Home Office, Foreign Office and MoD) as to the size and scope of any exclusion zones and restricted airspace are made as soon as possible, in order to allow helicopter companies and HLS operators to start planning for an expected customer demand.

[Earl of Rochester]

http://www.bigginhillairport.com/UserFiles/images/5209290310Aerial%20Pics%20039.jpg

BIGGIN HILL TO LAUNCH OLYMPIC HELICOPTER SERVICE

Wednesday 24 November 2010
Trevor Sturgess

Award-winning Biggin Hill is to launch an Olympic helicopter service between the business airport and Ebbsfleet International Station in 2012.
Passengers will transfer to a helicopter for a short flight to the station where they will board the high-speed rail shuttle to Stratford International, close to Olympic Park.

The estimated journey time between touchdown at Biggin Hill and arrival at the stadium could be as short as 40 minutes.

Details are being hammered out by airport chiefs and High Speed One. An airport spokesman confirmed that a helipad site had been earmarked close to Ebbsfleet International station. Sponsors, guests and a number of competitors are expected to arrive in the country at Biggin Hill.

Meanwhile, the Olympic strategy was crucial in Biggin Hill being named Britain's Best Business Aviation Airport by the Airport Operators Association (AOA).

Guy Lachlan, CEO of the British Business and General Aviation Association which judged the category, said the judges were impressed by the airport's achievement in attracting new businesses.
"Also impressive over the past year has been the leadership and determination shown by airport management in planning and preparing for the 2012 London Olympics," he said.

New helicopter service to launch (http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent_business/home/2010/november/18/new_helicopter_service.aspx)

[hands_on123]

Time for the re-launch of Biggin Hill Helicopters maybe. Get the old team together, BL, LP, and his sidekick DC. Err, "Total quality service"!

[delta3]

Earl,

40' Is that good news ??

The limo's from Bigging Hill -driving through the nice private roads- can do it in 50' to Belgravia if not too much trafic.

In Paris it takes you 10', you can even take the sub at the Heliport...

m2c
d3

[AdamFrisch]

There is or was an approved area for seaplane landings in the Greenwich area. Perhaps this should be investigated. I wonder if landing a helicopter on a barge in a designated seaplane landing area requires planning permission! would it still count as a landing on water?

Really? I've tried to find anything about Thames landings and come up with zero.

But I doubt London CTR would allow the approach. And even if they did, there's an 8kts speed limit on the Thames, I think. One could perhaps land a seaplane more to the east on the river and speed taxi into suitable mooring, but I'm sure there's some law against that too.

They love laws.

[OvertHawk]

Pretty sure the Thames has an unrestricted speed limit once you're downstream of Wansdworth Bridge (near Battersea Heliport), so no speed limit around Greenwich.

[Heliboater]

Whilst there is no speed limit as such, the speed must be such that it does not cause uneccesary problems for other water users or people with house boats etc.
The River Authorities (PLA) have imposed an overall limit of 12knots through Central London bridges and the area around Greenwich.

[JimBall]

Late 90s, Virgin Atlantic ran a very fast boat service between Brentford and Westminster along the Thames, with limos at each end so Upper Class pax had a choice of transport for LHR. They had speed limit exemptions, subject to other traffic.
So it is possible.

[Bravo73]

From today's Sunday Times front page: (unfortunately there's no point linking to the article itself because News International now insist on charging for access)

'Ark Royal to be Heliport'

In essence, there are plans afoot to moor the soon to be decommissioned aircraft carrier in Royal Albert Dock (next to City Airport) and to operate it as a heliport in time for the 2012 Olympics.

It would be manned by 150 veterans (including a number of disabled servicemen). Start up costs would be £25m, rising to £100m over five years. The 'taxpayer' would receive £3m for the carrier. It could also potentially be used as a base for the Met Police and London HEMS. And apparently talks have already been held between the various interested parties: the MoD, the CAA, the Port of London Authority, the deputy Mayor of London and the firm behind the bid.



Well, maybe sense will prevail after all...? :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Start up costs would be £25m,

I thought the fees at Battersea were expensive, but that is ridiculous.

[OvertHawk]

100 million over 5 years based on the 12,000 movement limit that Battersea has (one landing one take off = two movements) works out at just under £3350.00 per landing. 150 staff!!!???

there might be a demand for an "H" in that end of the city but it's not that big a demand. Yes - the Olympics will give a temporary boost, but come on!

HEMS move there - why? They need to be on the Hospital for casualty delivery and they need to be at Denham for maintenance. As for moving the Met from Lippets - again - Why????

Part of me (a small part) would really like to think that this could happen, but does anyone here really believe for one second that it will?

I truly hope that no one is spending taxpayers money looking seriously at this

[Bravo73]

Calm down, Overthawk. No need to start flapping.

The heliport won't be the sole use. As far as I'm aware, it would also function as some sort of museum and/or conference type destination. ie multiple revenue streams.

And who said anything about relocating the Met Police and London HEMS there? It could be used as a base, in addition to Lippets and the Royal London.


Here is the full text from the article: (From a thread in the Mil forum):

http://www.pprune.org/6259415-post10.html

[OvertHawk]

But i do soooooo enjoy a good flap!!!! :-)

[Snarlie]

I thought the main obstacle to heli operations at London City was local opposition as indicated by stringent planning restrictions laid down by the local authority. Surely, the same local authority has jurisdiction over Royal Albert Dock so how would local opposition be overcome for the dear old Ark - or is that part of the £25 start up cost.

[OvertHawk]

Snarlie is correct!

[chopperchappie]

If the maths work out that having Ark-Royal as a tourist attraction all well and good, but otherwise why bother putting a boat there. There are plenty of chunks of land around that area that could be used as a "proper" heliport.

Personally I think that a proper heliport on the north of the river between docklands and westminster somewhere makes sense at a basic level but you need to get away from paying £1500 a day to land and sit there or a bit before it would become used as a taxi-rank, if that is what people want though?

On the other hand, as there is a great big airport not 500m away wouldn't it make a bit more sense to have a sensible place to have helis land there?

I understand the need for airliner safety/separation but I can't see how landing on the Ark Royal in the general vicinity would be much safer, particularly if operating under a different ATC unit.

CITY never seems that busy that it couldn't accommodate a few helis!

CC

[JimBall]

chopperchappie: as mentioned many times previously, the planning permissions for City (at the time of building in the early 80s) specifically forbid any rotary operations.

City is currently struggling to increase its overall movements without any increase in taxiways or runways - and the local opposition has been immense.

However, there is a piece of land on the northside of the dock (not within the City ground boundary) that was used for Red Bull Air Race - it would be a perfect heli area with a DLR station and road system right next to it. And it wouldn't cost £25m to build a small termnal and FBO.

[John R81]

Can we use the steam catapult?:}

Can we?
Can we?
Can we?


Awe, Please!! What a zoom-climb that would be:eek::eek::eek:

[OvertHawk]

I can just imagine someone being fixed onto the "cat" only to watch their skids being fired towards Canary Wharf while they remained in the hover! :E

[helihub]

Quite separate to any approvals of an aviation nature, there are significantly less planning restrictions on moveable structures, and as we are talking of a ship, does it need planning permission to moor? Just a thought....

LCY has had helicopter visitors on some of its summer open days (DennisK did a display once or twice I recall?), and I believe the police or air ambulance are exempt from the planning restriction. There may have been a declared emergency nearby which necessitated a landing... cannot remember the details of that one, but think it was on this rumour network some years back.

[Helinut]

Don't forget that some enterprising outfit tried to put a helipad barge on the Thames a few years ago, but was prevented by the planners/local authorities. I don't know whether the "jobs for ex-military guys and gals" would make this acceptable....

[Snarlie]

Ark Royal was designed a a " through deck cruiser " and was therefore not equipped with catapult equipment as part of a compromise to stop the RAF sulking about the operation of fast jets at sea. The Harrier was initially intended to operate to the deck just like a helicopter until some gifted engineer came up with the idea of the ski jump, thereby greatly improving the potential of STOL as opposed to VTOL.

The ski jump would probably enhance the take off performance of wheeled aircraft but I suspect skidded aircraft would bring about noise complaints.

[John R81]

Can't be that difficult to retrofit a cat.

Come on! Work with me here.

[Savoia]

.
Not sure if Nick Tubbs is still plugging away at this but, if so, I do wish him success.

http://www.propertyweek.com/pictures/636x441fitpad[237]/2/1/3/1694213_ARK_ROYAL_SITE_LOOKING_WEST_1.jpg

Developers are an optimistic bunch, but for one of them to dream of buying an old aircraft carrier, mooring it in the middle of London and turning it into a heliport before next year’s Olympics is off the scale.

Quite apart from the image helicopters conjure up – of the super-rich swanning off to their tax havens at a time when the nation’s belts are being tightened – there is the considerable hurdle of gaining support from worried planning officers.

But 47-year-old developer Nicholas Tubbs, who has been in property for 30 years, is not a quitter. He has spent the last 10 years planning a new town called Sherford in the middle of Devon, and finally expects to begin construction early next year.

More (http://www.propertyweek.com/comment/choppers-away/5018961.article#)

[AdamFrisch]

Great thing if they can pull it off. Plus it would add another tourist flourish and some interest - which other city has an aircraft carrier as a heliport parked in the middle of town?

[Helinut]

Sadly,

only if Ark Royal also permitted:

http://www.trangtriblog.com/avatar/animals/Flying-Pig.gif (http://www.trangtriblog.com/avatars.html)

[SilsoeSid]

A slight diversion from the main threads discussing last weeks incident, but perhaps something that might be more of a top topic if the result of this incident makes TfL (or whoever will make that descision) think about ceasing heli-ops within London as they are now.

I don't suppose there's a chance that, for example, all the businessmen et al that use Battersea or Vanguard could be persuaded to get together and have a business approach look at;

HMS Illustrious (R06) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Illustrious_(R06))

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/HMS_Illustrious_1.jpg/640px-HMS_Illustrious_1.jpg

She has taken over the helicopter carrier role while Ocean undergoes a planned refit, due for completion by 2014; Illustrious will then be withdrawn from service

Given the right placement, not only would a decent approach profile would be possible, there could also be conference facilities, hotel, restaurant, gym, spa etc etc making it quite lucrative.

A whole host of safety measures could be in place, such as a minimum cloud base and all points vis before she opened, comprehensive met & emergency facilities, along with a strict PPR arrangement.

Just something to throw into the forum, as I get the feeling that things are going to change quite a bit.

[Bravo73]

Has already been discussed in the past (regarding Ark Royal and the Olympics):

http://www.pprune.org/6259415-post10.html

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/409627-new-london-heliport.html


The idea makes lots of sense to me, on lots of different levels.

Is it going to happen? I very much doubt it. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif

[Savoia]

Sid: It would be a good idea but .. as has been said, it is unlikely to happen.

On the New London Heliport thread that Bravo73 linked, I expressed my disappointment in the lack of initiative which has been so apparent when it comes to discovering contemporary solutions for rotary-wing access to the City of London.

It seems that UK operators lack faith in believing that improved/increased city access could cultivate demand and further prove the efficiency of rotorcraft as a vital medium for priority transportation or, if they do, they are unwilling to act upon it!

A converted carrier has virtually unlimited potential for the employment of its many spaces and could serve as a sorely needed resource for city-bound traffic.

Here are just some of the possibilities:


You already have a flight deck and control tower.




The vessel can be relocated along various portions of the Thames so that the noise peril can be 'shared' on a calendar basis (or not) but at least the flexibility of this option is there.




All the vessel would require to interface with the various parts of the city is a small flotilla of water taxis (much as we have in Venice) which could speed passengers to the various wharfs and embankments along the Thames (we are talking about handfuls of minutes to get to shore and .. moving considerably faster than a car straining its way across the city).
The remainder of the ship could be used as:

- A tourist attraction
- Restaurant
- Special events destination
- Exhibitions/galleries
- Office accommodation

etc.

As I say, the possibilities are almost limitless.

Re: businessmen who fly into the city helping out? I think it highly unlikely unless they happen to be a philanthropic billionaire with an especial interest in both aviation and 'nautica'.

You might however (and I emphasise the might) be able to find a developer (not British of course) who would look at it but .. when they are confronted with the quagmire known as London borough councils .. they will end-up wanting to hang themselves.

But its a great idea! ;)

[Gemini Twin]

Brilliant idea SS. Think ahead everyone, the business tilt rotors are coming. :ok:

[timprice]

Knowing the competent authority as we do, the carrier would have to be sunk, so that it no longer counted as an elevated platform, and the bit sticking up in the middle cut off as it could or may cause wind shear on approach/take off, plus that funny curvy thing at one end flattened.
Then after care full consideration, it most probably turned down if suitable rescue services could not cross Bridges to said landing area in event of a incident.:ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

I know it's not an original idea, but it may be a case of get something in the planning or face nothing at all. The timing of Illustrious being made 'available' and the incident, might make this the best time for any project to be pursued.


In reply to tp, considering all the facilities that would be on board I would have thought that having its own fire section would be the way to go.

[ShyTorque]

Given the right placement, not only would a decent approach profile would be possible, there could also be conference facilities, hotel, restaurant, gym, spa etc etc making it quite lucrative.

That would be good for we pilots, while waiting, but what about the passengers?

BTW, There used to be an alternative landing place, on a barge placed near where HMS Belfast is now, I think it was. I remember going there in a Whirlwind.

[Savoia]

That would be good for we pilots, while waiting, but what about the passengers?

Lol, excellent! :ok:

As you know in the early 80's there was the three-pad barge at Trigg Lane for a while but near Belfast was Summertime-Reindeer's operation. He had (among other things) the DHL contract flying parcels and letters from his barge to the Holiday Inn at Heathrow mainly using G-BAZN.

[SilsoeSid]

I'm sure the resources are here on PPRuNe to put something together.
Lawyers, Businessmen, controllers, met-folk, firefighters, medics, etc etc Oh and a few pilots, who can contribute to making it a viable proposition to Boris and whoever else needs to approve of such a project.


Anyone fancy going on Dragons Den?

http://www.flyingtv.co.uk/galleryStills/Bannatyne.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Oh, any idea what RYA course is needed to drive one of these boats?

[Heliport]

Savoia It seems that UK operators lack faith in believing that improved/increased city access could cultivate demand and further prove the efficiency of rotorcraft as a vital medium for priority transportation or, if they do, they are unwilling to act upon it!

Do you seriously believe the failing is by the operators?

There hasn't been a helipad in or near the City since the mid 80s. Battersea is the nearest but it's not near the City. There have been various proposals but the problem is overcoming the objections of the very loud anti-noise and anti-helicopter lobbies and persuading the Mayor/Greater London Authority or the City Corporation to agree it makes sense.


H

[OvertHawk]

I don't think it could or will ever happen.

No London planning authority is going to open itself up to the level of outcry and complaint that it would receive if it so much as thought about approving a new Heliport facility in London. The Mayor's office would not pursue it because there are no votes to win and many to lose. The Government will not pursue it for the same reason.

Battersea is what we've got and all we're going to get. We just need to make sure we don't lose that!

OH

[Dennis Kenyon]

Just a few months back I was asked to visit the Portsmouth dock where said 'Ark Royal' sat somewhat forlornly. My brief was to determine if the vessel was suitable as a London heli landing pad!! ... (no laughter please.) Standing atop Bill Bedford's famous ski ramp while looking down several hundred yards of open deck, I decided 'yes!' Bigger guys than me determined it couldn't happen for the Olympics so 'Ocean' got the job. BUT ... touring around below, I could see a concert hall, (or pop venue) conference centre, a dozen or so 'top of the range' apartments, posh shops, not to mention an athletics track, two or three clubs of varying nature, obviously a hotel or perhaps one at each end! Trouble was the beastie sits 100 feet above dockside ... quite a climb for visitors!

Regards to all and long live Trigg Lane. Dennis K.

[Savoia]

Eliporto:

Do you seriously believe the failing is by the operators?

Yes, I do.

For it is known (and you have said so yourself) that this battle lies with the lobbies and planners and which challenge the BHA (or any other association to the best of my knowledge) have capitulated to. Who then will take-up this fight if not the operators/users who, ultimately, are the potential beneficiaries of any increase in access to the city?

On the matter of enhanced/increased city access the helicopter industry in the UK has been on the back foot for many-a-year now and it is my belief that this will eventually harm certain parts of the industry (if it hasn't already).

Moreover, just because this fight with lobbies and planners is formidable, does not equate to a worthless endeavour but, perhaps instead, that operators/users should collaborate and engage in a long-term plan to see rotorcraft increasingly accommodated as part of a vision for a progressive, efficient London.

There hasn't been a helipad in or near the City since the mid 80s. Battersea is the nearest but it's not near the City.

Quite, and which should strengthen the motivation to take-up this cause.

Regarding Illustrious/The Ark, as much as I would personally love to see them deployed as a floating heliport, my faith does not extend to believing that the lobbies and planners would permit such a vast piece of ironmongery to impede upon the current status quo along the Thameside embankments and I fear that the mobility of these craft (a great flexibility) would only serve to feed the desire of opponents to eventually see the thing towed away.

The answer, I believe, is to be found in a number of smaller (if possible discreet) helipads at strategic locations across London and in this regard a starting point could be that of collaborating with developers in order to promote the incorporation of helipads on new buildings.

[handysnaks]

Savoia, is that a nice planet you're living on? It must be quite a bit different to this one. It is not just lobbyists and planners. The general population of London are indifferent to the plight of a few corporate helicopter operators and amazingly noise averse for a people who inhabit one of the worlds largest cities!

[Flying Lawyer]

Hmm .... maybe Sid and Savoia have got a point?

Ark Royal has already been sold for scrap but Lusty is due to be de-commissioned next year after 32 years sterling service.
And why stop at helicopters?
Companies and wealthy individuals could buy some of the Harriers the RAF & Navy no longer need and travel even more quickly.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/HMS%20Illustrious/HMSIllustrious158_800.jpg
HMS Illustrious, North Sea, June 2009



Seriously Savoia, whilst it is regrettable that there is no helipad in or near the City (apart from a hospital roof-top helipad for HEMS), you greatly underestimate the size and strength of the opposition.

FL

[SpringHeeledJack]

The regulatory and technical aspects of building/providing and running a heliport in the city might prove a step too far with an unsupportive government, but you never know, they might see the light one day. However, perhaps the reason is just that the major part of the heli-traffic coming into Battersea comprises high worth individuals who own their own steed, VIP passengers chartering and so on, most who will be happy with the present heliport's location in relation to SW1, W1, SW3 where they will reside whilst in town. Most of the hedge funds are based in Mayfair these days, so perhaps those a bit down the pecking order in the city would gain little from the potential new location(s) as they aren't generally sanctioned to fly by helicopter on the firm's shilling. If there was a move, I'd wager more than a few of the regular clients would create a stink about the schlep across town to get to the 'golden postcodes' where their business/social/private lives are based.

[Savoia]

Seriously Savoia, whilst it is regrettable that there is no helipad in or near the City (apart from a hospital roof-top helipad for HEMS), you greatly underestimate the size and strength of the opposition.

Actually I don't; for this resistance has been apparent for decades.

What I believe is that the challenge of promoting additional London heliports/pads is worthy of a sustained, coordinated and collaborative effort by users and operators and that resignation to the naysayers does not serve the industry's best interests.

My acknowledgement of just how formidable the challenge is, lies within my statement that a long-term plan/approach is required.

[heli1]

Why not club together and put in an outline planning application to moor Lusty near the city as a tourist and helipad . Wouldn't cost much and would flush out supporters and opposition.

[Hedski]

Is the pad atop Harrods still in situ? Given that concern is no longer under the reign of the one who was not in favour with the government at the time he attempted to use the pad could the idea be reinvoked? If not then the barge like Wall St. would be the easiest option and if it was found to be unsuccessful could be towed away, no harm done?

[chevvron]

Blackfriars Barge was a popular helipad on the Thames until the Livingstones and NIMBYs killed it.

[Savoia]

Chevvron:

This was Summertime-Reindeer's (aka Micahel Somerton-Rayner) barge (mentioned on the previous page) which was at the end of Barge House Street to the west of Blackfriars Bridge. A converted military landing craft support barge of some description and from where was based Michael's operations and Star Aviation.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-f6daygD0nnU/UQfGvtKvwsI/AAAAAAAALuk/w2nVj9h1GQM/s759/Barge+Helipad.jpg
Summertime-Reindeer's converted landing barge at the end of Barge House Street (leading to Oxo Tower Wharf) opposite where HMS President would be moored (perhaps she still is). Taken on 13th February 1983 (Photo: Mike Lidgley)

[chevvron]

Looks like a standard Thames lighter to me but then I'm no expert, and it does have military type markings on the side so maybe Major Somerton - Rayner acquired it through the old boys network!
The facilites in London are pathetic when you look at the number of heliports/helipads dotted around Manhattan, both on piers and on buildings.

[Savoia]

.. so maybe Major Somerton - Rayner acquired it through the old boys network!

Lol, of that you can be certain!

The facilites in London are pathetic when you look at the number of heliports/helipads dotted around Manhattan, both on piers and on buildings.

I was banging on about this earlier in the thread but, there just doesn't seem to be the impetus in the UK to do anything about it.

I believe that new business could be cultivated as a direct result of improving access to different parts of London (by helicopter) and would like to see 4 or 5 public-use helipads between Kew Bridge and the Thames Barrier with a return to a floating barge to serve the City. But, I am being told that pigs might fly first!

[Hedski]

Boris may be open to suggestion......

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Whatever happened to the rooftop heliport near Fleet Street- is it still used?

[mfaff]

There was one on the roof top of the IPCC building.. Rupert Maxwell's old building; just north of Fleet Street on Shoe Lane.

It is now out of use, the buidlnig is empty and soon to be demolished.... I believe the last landing was in April last year.

[Savoia]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mb63xvwvvB8/UQvenN71QPI/AAAAAAAALwk/oOeIxKSSbzA/s680/AS355F1+G-RMGN+Maxwell+Communications+8+Max+Hse+New+Fetter+Lane+1987+% 28Gary+Lakin%29.jpg
AS355F1 G-RMGN atop 'Maxwell House' in 1987 (Photo: Gary Lakin)

Here G-RMGN seen atop the former 'Mirror Group Newpapers' office aka 'Maxwell House' at no. 8 New Fetter Lane.

.. Rupert Maxwell's ..

Is he by any chance the cousin of Robert Murdoch? ;)

[mfaff]

Opps.:\

Perhaps a long lost evil one...