Flight Safety Quiz

[Captain Nomad]

I refer to Q. 8 in the latest Flight Safety IFR quiz. Am I the only one that thinks there is an answer missing?

For those who don't want to bother looking it up:

Q: You are tracking along W887 by day inbound for a landing at Swan Hill. Overhead FRANZ and passing through 7000 on descent you establish VMC and ascertain that this can be maintained to the circuit area. While remaining IFR category, when can the visual descent be made?

A - not until passing the 25nm MSA 2000
B - not until achieving the LSALT of 2700 and within circling area
C - since remaining IFR category you can only descend visually in accordance with the GPS arrival steps
D - once established within 30nm, ie 1nm past FRANZ

What about CAR 178?

178 Minimum height for flight under I.F.R.
(1) Subject to subregulation (4), the pilot in command of an
aircraft flown along a route segment for which there is a
published lowest safe altitude must not fly the aircraft at a
height lower than the published lowest safe altitude.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.
(2) Subject to subregulation (4), the pilot in command of an
aircraft flown along a route segment for which there is no
published lowest safe altitude must not fly the aircraft at a
height lower than the lowest safe altitude calculated in
accordance with a method for determining a lowest safe
altitude that is determined by CASA under subregulation (6).
Penalty: 50 penalty units.
(3) An offence against subregulation (1) or (2) is an offence of
strict liability.
(4) An aircraft may be flown along a route segment at a height less
than the height that is applicable under subregulation (1) or (2):
(a) during take-off or landing; or
(b) during arrival or departure, if the aircraft is being flown:
(i) at a safe height above the terrain; and
(ii) in accordance with any instructions published in
AIP; or
(c) during an authorised instrument departure procedure or
authorised instrument approach procedure; or
(d) if the aircraft is being flown by day in V.M.C.; or
(e) if the aircraft is being flown in accordance with
instructions from air traffic control.


My bolding

[muffman]

They were just checking that we were paying attention

[Ted D Bear]

Unfortunately, these quizzes often have mistakes - tho' not as many as a few years back. I remember one relating to a Scone NDB approach which suggested a descent rate on the outbound leg that looked to me to encourage a CFIT accident, as well as a reference to being within 25DME Scone (when Scone doesn't have a DME!). It also talked about an altitude minimum compare to the forecast cloud base in TAF (even though the latter is a forecast of cloud height above AD elevation!) :eek:

At least this mistake is a "fail-safe" one (ie the error would be safer than the legal requirement). It is a simple mistake too: AIP ENR 1.5 para 1.14 doesn't mention 'VMC' (it gives you the precise cloud and vis. requirements) or 'the circuit' (it talks about the circling area), but the question does.:ugh:

Ted

[Feather #3]

I find these questions stimulating and helpful, but there certainly are errors!!

At one stage I got the answer that they use contractors to build the quiz. Who checks these things before they go out??:confused:

G'day ;)

[The Green Goblin]

An IFR aeroplane can descend at any time during the day below the route LSALT in VMC period.

How else can IFR aeroplanes participate in SAR, customs etc.

The Jepps/AIP do have a reference somewhere though saying that an IFR aeroplane shall not be descended below the LSALT for the last route segment until within 30nm of an aerodrome by day or something along those lines.

[Jabawocky]

GG correct!

Its crazy I know but even on a Gin Clear day you can't descend until 30 miles:\. You can downgrade to VFR of course!

J

[Captain Nomad]

Jabawocky and GG, what is the point of having CAR 178 (4)(d) if what you are implying is correct?

The Jepp reference you are thinking of is probably ATC 3.6.6 (page AU-807)

An aircraft must not be flown under the IFR lower than the published LSALT or the LSALT calculated in accordance with this section, except when being assigned levels in accordance with ATS surveillance service terrain clearance procedures or when being flown in accordance with a published DME arrival, instrument approach or holding procedure, or except when necessary during climb after departure from an aerodrome, or except during VMC by day (CAR 178 refers)

My bolding

I must admit the wording of this referance has changed over the years...!

[The Green Goblin]

Jepps Terminal AU-15 1.6.1

Except when complying with the requirements for a visual approach, when conforming to a published DME or GPS arrival procedure, or when identified and assigned an altitude by ATC, an aircraft approaching and aerodrome must not descend below the LSALT or the MSA for the route segment being flown until it has arrived over the IAF of facility.

Terminal AU-23 3.16.1a

Visual Approaches

By Day - within 30nm of that aerodrome at an altitude not below the LSALT/MSA for the route segment, the appropriate step of the DME or GPS arrival, or the MDA for the procedurebeing flow, the aircraft established:

Clear of cloud
In sight of ground or water
With a flight vis not less than 5000m
At an altitude not less than the min for VFR flight (car 157) to within the circling area.

[Jabawocky]

Yes its just one of those crazy quirks of the rules, fortunately it really does not hinder you too much, unlike some other bizare things!:cool:

[43Inches]

CAR 178 and AIP GEN 3.3-4.6 (Capt Nomad has the Jepp version posted) both allow an IFR aircraft to operate below lowest safe altitude in VMC by day. AIP ENR 1.5 IAL and Holding Procedures as I understand only applies to operations in IMC although not clearly stated.

An IFR visual approach may be conducted in non-VMC, as it only requires a minimum visibility and no minimum clearance from cloud.

[Ted D Bear]

Precisely, 43".:ok:

The AIP and CAR requirements are not inconsistent: an IFR flight can operate below LSALT in VMC by day and remain an IFR category flight (as contemplated by CAR 178(4)(d) - no need, as an earlier poster suggested, to cancel IFR). And AIP permits an IFR flight to make a visual approach in less than VMC - as contemplated by CAR 178(4)(b)(ii).

Ted

[4Greens]

All this discussion reminds me of how stupidly prescriptive and complicated the OZ regs are. Bring on the FARs as soon as... they are so straightforward.

[Ted D Bear]

Whaddyamean??? Top of descent checklist:

1. Brief instrument approach
2. Set aids
3. Set forecast QNH
4. Remove AIP Book from navbag
5. Re-read AIP IAL

:E

Ted

[601]

1. Brief instrument approach
2. Set aids
3. Set forecast QNH
4. Remove AIP Book from navbag
5. Re-read AIP IAL

6. Consult QC - or several to get a consensus of opinion.

[Ted D Bear]

Nah - you'll never get a consensus unless you only ask one QC :hmm: