Nibbled Away!!!

[Vortex_Generator]

Reference:

A. JSP 752, Chapter 3, Section 1.

1. The following changes to the policy regarding entitlement to claim Incidental Expenses (IE) should be noted by HR staffs and disseminated to all Service personnel.

2. The overseas rate of IE, as from 1 Apr 10, will be aligned with the UK rate at £5.00. Additionally, payment of IE will be capped at a 30 calendar day/night limit. These changes will be included in the next version of JSP 752.

[SirToppamHat]

And I believe there are significant changes also to the availability of disturbance allowance for those occupying SLA, notified in another of a batch of T Letters I saw this morning.

STH

[downsizer]

The only change to SLA DA is for people moving into different SLA on the same unit. They will no longer be entitled to DA, which lets be honest makes sense.

[GalleyTeapot]

Disturbance allowance change isn't such a biggie I don't think, as far as I read it if you occupy SLA you no longer get disturbance for a "same unit move". Kinda makes sense.

Also girls no longer get an allowance for their sussies.

[FFP]

I'm not following this change.

So, if I'm away for more than 30 days, I'm no longer incurring costs that IE was covering in the first 30 days ? Is there a letter I show in the local stores that gets me my newspaper and toothpaste (as well as phone call home) for free.

What's the rationale behind that ? If it's that $5 (sorry, don't have a GBP sign on this keyboard) more than covers you, then lower it and give you it everyday.

Do you have to provide receipts still or are those days gone ?

About to come back to the world of JPA ( and left it when it first came in )

[Belle and Sebastian]

A few years ago, I graduated from Sleaford Tech and my prize was an eviction notice to move out of my Airman's Quarter and was told to move into the Officer's patch. I was no longer entitled to a 2 bed house on 1 side of COTT but a 3 bed house just a few hundred yards down the road. Even though it was just for an additional 6 months whilst I completed Eng trg, I did not want to move but DHE were insistent.

It cost the system a Pickfords removal service and about £1300 in disturbance allowance - a complete waste of money.

The downside was that my rent went up by 50% but my pay didn't....

[matkat]

If they are saying that the £5 IE is limited by UK (Tax) policy then that is just wrong as the £5 is a continous allowance for any day that you are away from home and it is agreed by the revenue(Their rules) it is therefore an allowance that should be given for any days you are away, that is certainly the rules for the civilian world, certainly sounds as if you guy's are getting shafted again!!!

[ghostnav]

I am hoping that is 30 days in one stretch. If it isn't, I will suggest that someone who has not done 30 days goes away to do the job!

[vecvechookattack]

Is there a letter I show in the local stores that gets me my newspaper and toothpaste

Are you really claiming for a newspaper and some toothpaste?

Maybe we could help you fix your Tennis court whilst we are paying you? How about a new house for your duck pond?

[Jumping_Jack]

They are also reducing the capped amount you can claim for meals when away too. It wasn't enough before so we really are being driven into the Burger Kings of this world whilst on Her Majesty's business....:*

[vecvechookattack]

Yeah - But the rate at the moment is circa £27. You have to work hard to spend £27 a day on food.

[minigundiplomat]

You have to work hard to spend £27 a day on food.


Outside of London (in which case spending £27 on food is p1ss easy) you are right.

However, the 30 day cap on IE makes no sense whatsoever. Neither does dropping overseas IE by 50% at a time when the £ is practically on a par with the currency of Zimbabwe against most other currencies.

I am hoping this is a short term 'belt tightening' measure to keep the bean counters happy.

Roll on a UKIP government and a 40% increase in defence spending.......







.......and your back in the room.

[QTRZulu]

vec,

We must eat at very different establishments if you think its difficult to spend £27 a day whilst away;)

[vecvechookattack]

Balti Chicken & Rice & Naan Bread = £9.40

King Prawn Chow mein & Rice = £5.60

Big Mac meal = about a fiver

What do you blokes eat that costs 27 Quid...?

Even a posh pizza joint struggles to muster £27 - http://www.loveprezzo.co.uk/pdfs/prezzomenu.pdf

[VinRouge]

Thats OK, will be putting in 5 quid self-cert on my DS then instead.

Useless blunty F*ckers

[Jumping_Jack]

Try eating in the hotel with the Civil Servants that you are travelling with! £27 for lunch and dinner doesn't cover it. Often there is no alternative (before you say 'go to a cheaper restaurant'). Either way it is still robbing us....

[lightningmate]

Personally, I prefer to eat food, not rubbish!

lm

[vecvechookattack]

I suppose that you could make a personal contribution to the food that you are eating like most people would...?

[minigundiplomat]

Personally, I prefer to eat food, not rubbish!

Indeed. rifling through dustbins tends to lead to vagrancy charges. Not that I know.....

[vecvechookattack]

But going back to the thread.....

£5 a day is more than enough to buy a newspaper and some toothpaste

[minigundiplomat]

Vec,

what you say is true. BUT......

You are so happy to bargain downwards and accept extra filling in the 'sh1t sandwich' I worry you are actually the former CAS.

Yes, we can 'survive' on £27, and yes if we shop around enough we can buy newspapers and toothpaste for £5, but it is a backward step.

Try not defending the latest eye catching initiative from the MOD, implemented by CS working to very different rules.

[lightningmate]

minigundiplomat

Your evidence that it is Civil Servants who are pushing through these variations is?

More likely a uniformed TLB acting under 'political' dictate and lacking the proverbial to contest the issue.

lm

[Biggus]

Those people who are members of the grassy knoll club (believers in conspiracy theories) will have come to the conclusion that the RAF, seeing the way the wind is blowing, has switched from "recruit like mad" mode, to "we can afford to hack people off as we will be downsizing in numbers soon anyway" mode.....

[skaterboi]

Biggus, I'm not big in to conspiracies but the evidence seems to suggest your theory is bang on... :hmm:

[SirToppamHat]

Wise words BGG.

With the value of the £ having fallen so much in recent years, and assuming there was a case for IE in the first place, there is no logic whatsoever in this reduction.

STH

[Spurlash2]

Balti Chicken & Rice & Naan Bread = £9.40

King Prawn Chow mein & Rice = £5.60

Big Mac meal = about a fiver

Hey, Vec,

How big's your belly on that diet?

...and reprising Jumping_Jack, don't forget, that £27 covers lunch, dinner and breakfast.:ok:

[14greens]

so out of the balti, chow mein and Mc d's how did you break that down to breakie lunch and dinner?
Fat knacker on that diet no thanks

[ghostnav]

What is hard to understand is that in this year's AFPRB Report, MOD recognised the time away and reduced the number of qualifying days for LSSA from 10 to 7. Then this comes along that does nothing to support that policy! Who says we have joined up thinking?

As for vecvechookattack (http://www.pprune.org/members/108038-vecvechookattack) looks like he lives in Cornwall and most probably lives on pasties....

[FFP]

The newspaper and toothpaste were but 2 examples of the expenses used to come up with the amount IE is determinded at. Just like LOA takes into account all sorts of costs overseas like oil changes, sports clothing, the cost of babysitters in the foreign land you inhabit.

There are others, but I've just spent 10.7 hours flying in theatre and don't feel like cut and pasting admin regs to educate you on matters you seem to have no grasp of.

W@nker

[Wensleydale]

It doesn't really matter what the overseas rates are.....

We are rarely authorised to attend overseas meetings anymore these days. If we are not there then we can't get the allowance.:ugh:

[Arty Fufkin]

IE is supposed to cover a multitude of things when overseas, including the occasional phone call home. It's not unreasonable to argue that it costs more to call home from abroad than in from the UK, hence the overseas IE rate was higher. One of the other costs quoted as being covered by IE was laundry. Try getting your laundry done in a hotel for £5 a day, it wasn't even possible on £10. Going down route is already costing me money each time I do it, I guess my "personal contribution" for doing my job has just gone up by £5 per day.
If this saves the MOD a few grand, good on em. I think it shows our lords and masters in their true light as synical penny pinching half wits.

Side note to PMA:

You wouldn't need to offer me an F.R.I. if you made the job enjoyable again!!!

[Chris Griffin]

Wensleydale,

It does matter what the overseas rate is, as those AT Sqns will tell you. I've just returned from a 5 day long trip, and have found it nigh on impossible to eat inside the rate, (shade over 10 stone to pre-empt the fat boy truckie banter, and light blue fitness test wise) even using the IE to bolster funds in order to eat. I'm personally quite happy to pay for my own few beers per evening.

Having just checked my online banking, I forked out an additional £90 over 5 days for a small lunch and evening meal only. Thats fine for those that can afford, but bear in mind the SAC steward who is finding it increasingly difficult to do their job without having to pay for the privilege.

Its somewhat annoying that expenditure of many thousands of pounds can be authorized on truly crass decisions, such as (hypothetically) keeping a crew overseas with a sick jet for a few weeks instead of bringing them home on return tickets which, incidentally, may have saved over £7000, whilst penny pinching over £50 a night in IE.

You just know some bluntie has obsequiously recommended the cut - "look at me sir, I've just saved £2000 a month. Can I get promoted now". Its just another push factor which will become self evident when recruitment recommences. The exodus will be quite startling. Lions led by donkeys.

[Uncle Ginsters]

...and all that MoD stationary proudly displaying that IiP (Investors in People!) logo. Really?

Can anyone remember the last time the we, the people, were given anything other than cuts - reduced manpower, reduced 'support', increased admin hurdles and less helpful Civil Serpents? I can't.

[QTRZulu]

Uncle Ginsters,

Such a question was asked many many moons ago at ISK to which the answer came back that IIP is nothing to do with spending money directly on the workforce, it was all about providing opportunities for the workforce.

Its just a shame with such a small workforce that very rarely can those opportunities actually be taken up!

I guess there is money being spent, but its a select few that benefit and rarely does it seem to be the guys and gals that spend so much time down route or overseas.:(

[dallas]

...and all that MoD stationary proudly displaying that IiP (Investors in People!) logo. Really?
To be fair Investors in People is often mistaken for something it isn't. It is a benchmark for organisations who provide access to training and development; it doesn't mean the organisation gives a stuff about anything but performance stats and fashionably hollow Govt schemes. Personally, I think it is misleading, and would be better named Investors in Personal Development, but that's not NuLabour team-huggy enough.

[heights good]

This is what IE is paid for

"IE are designed to cover necessary personal incidental expenses actually incurred when an overnight absence in a hotel or temporary Service single accommodation is occupied. Allowable expenses are the cost of laundry/dry cleaning expenses, a daily telephone call home of up to 3 minutes duration and a daily newspaper. Where however, a Service person purchases a phone card for use during an IE earning period, the actual total cost of that phone card may be split over a number of days provided that the cost of 3 minutes call time per day is not exceeded (ie a 20 minute phone card may be purchased for use over a 7 day period).

Likewise, Service personnel with an entitlement to claim IE may choose not to have their laundry/dry cleaning done each day. Where this is the case the total actual cost of the laundry/dry cleaning incurred may be spread over a number of days of the IE earning period. Hotel internet charges may also be considered as IE. This is on the basis that the internet is used as an alternative to claiming for a newspaper and/or a phone call home."

Hope this helps......

HG

[Uncle Ginsters]

Dallas,

Point taken. However, my point still holds true in relation to Personal Development. We're in an environment where sport and AT can only be conducted without any T&S assistance from HMG - you can't even drive a minibus further than one tank of gas away as HMG can't afford a refill from public sources. Still, I guess the high-ropes course on base costs nowt :ugh:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see much to earn the label Investors in Personal Development either.

[dallas]

UG

It wasn't a defence, I was just feeling benevolent. IiP is a total waste of time, space and money, but there are few employers that provide TDFs, staff rides, duty sport etc. Don't get me wrong - I despise the ducks who nibble at every turn - but equally we mustn't forget that cash is short across HMG.

Why we are short of cash, and the scandalous way our hefty taxes are wasted is a discussion for another day!

[halty]

Maybe the IE has been cut to pay for the "Shopping bags for life" emblazoned with Royal Air Force on the side which we all received yesterday, I kid you not! what a waste of money.

[Jimlad1]

As a MOD CS, I just want to clarify that our own travel allowance is based on actual receipts, and is based on an assessment of reasonable expenditure - e.g. meals and actuals for taxis etc. We get the same £5 limit on IEA, and I believe we are also affected by the reduction from £10 - £5 overseas.

The idea that we can claim for any meal we like is untrue - all claims are subject to scrutiny and if deemed excessive, will result in you repaying the excess amount.

Starting a CS / Mil pay&allowances argument is pointless as you are trying to compare two very different types of employment contracts and terms/conditions.

Of course its annoying, but its just another sign of how broke the department is that it has to fall onto these measures to save money.

[Jimlad1]

MOD CS - sorry mistyped.

Not going to rise to very poor effort to get a rise. As for serving - done one op tour already (like many CS), am also serving reservist and looking forward to compulsory call up for next op tour in uniform in couple of months.

[cutting edge]

The next thing on the horizon is the removal of the advances system from an FSI. So, you will have two choices either go to the cashiers and get an advance or spend your own money and claim it back from JPA. How is that going to work when you get some money from an overseas cash machine whilst incurring costs and then you don't spend all of the cash. You are left with a currency you don't need. Will you be able to change it in the cashiers office when you get back?

[Uncle Ginsters]

Heard this last week. Apparently the Army don't think we need it! Have they forgotten what the 'J' in JPA stands for? All 3 Services still have their individual needs. The pressure comes from that particular JPA function being an add-on and costing (more) money.

Go ahead, take away the FSI and wait the first instance where a crew can't pay the handling fees or can't eat as they don't take your brand of card. What about those countries with controlled currency that isn't available from the cashier?

The cashiers don't have enough hours in the day as is, and they would have up to 15 more transactions per sortie to deal with for our larger AT types.

And then there are the short-notice changes out-of-hours...

This is just a ridiculous idea and I hope that someone has the balls to bat it off before we see a fundless AT fleet stranded or even impounded having not paid their fees.

[EODFelix]

Advances from the MOD CS viewpoint are already being examined by the DFAU - multiple instances of where staff have claimed for an advance and not travelled anywhere thereby using the system as an authorised Advance of Salary. Staff have been subject to disciplinary action.

Agree that the Army are not to bothered about the £10 overseas rate - as most of their personnel overseas are either on ops or exercises where the allowance does not apply.

As financial pressures mount on the Department there will be more examination of tri-service allowances and you can guess that the lowest common denominator will be the one that gets the official nod.

[sidewayspeak]

I think the term is death by a thousand little cuts?

Whilst the economy is bad and times are hard outside, the MOD can afford to do as it wishes - we have mortgages to pay and so retention is not so much of an issue. However, when things start to improve - as it will one day - watch the people flood out the door.

Slightly off topic, but they have also introduced the new redundancy terms when times are hard - 3 months pay maximum for those of us on AFPS 75. So on the one hand we have to give 6 months notice to leave, but they only have to give us three months pay to get rid of us! Truely one-sided and harsh for people who have given decades of loyal Service.

In sum, MOD make hay whilst times are hard because when it gets better, the experience will walk out the door and the military will be so much worse for it.

[Wrathmonk]

And if you want to be really paranoid

when things start to improve

whats the betting PVR waiting times will increase to 12, 18 or even 36 months as they did the last time we came out of the slump ;)

[vascodegama]

I take your point jimlad but at least you can still have the half bottle of wine with your main meal. Slight thread creep I know but does anyone know why we cant have the LOA issued by the imprest (as it was pre JPA?). Also on the LOA front I hope that those still spec aircrew or those PA Spine who joined from the spec aircrew list have noticed that since JPA all your LOA payments will be wrong. We took with us the right to Sqn Ldr LOA but the great god JPA doesn't recognise this. The blunties need to do a work around to get it right. I pointed this out 2 years ago but have only just got my first supplements paid.

[Mister G]

ah, PVR waiting times are almost definately going to increase. However, a lot of people are seeing the fitness test "four-strikes-and-you're-out" system as an easy way to PVR quickly!

The exodus will be quite startling.I couldn't agree more

[Uncle Ginsters]

at least you can still have the half bottle of wine with your main meal.

Not at the Oxonian airfield you can't. That guidance was for CS. The local interpretation of the T Letter's "a drink with your main meal" is one beer or one glass of wine. However, there are some very big glasses around the world!

What I don't understand is how JPA can be so poorly standardised across units - is it true that Waddo self-cert everything and Northolt are still on rates in the Gulf?!?

[Wrathmonk]

the fitness test "four-strikes-and-you're-out" system

Fear not - the rules will be changed enforcing a minimum of 9 months between retests to allow you to be full prepared for them ;)

[sidewayspeak]

whats the betting PVR waiting times will increase to 12, 18 or even 36 months as they did the last time we came out of the slump

You seriously think thay can hold us to 12,18 or 36 months when they have altered the rules to allow them to make us redundant with just 3 months pay?!!

We are paid monthly. According to EU employment law that should mean one month's notice. With leave that should mean handing one's notice in on JPA, hand in the ID card and then walk. I think it would be very difficult for them to stop anyone. I'd love to hear from anyone that has actually done this....

[dallas]

We are paid monthly. According to EU employment law that should mean one month's notice. With leave that should mean handing one's notice in on JPA, hand in the ID card and then walk. I think it would be very difficult for them to stop anyone. I'd love to hear from anyone that has actually done this....
The barrack room lawyers have visited this one a number of times, and apart from a number of 'I heard about a bloke...' stories in which nobody ever seems to be the bloke, there's nothing to it. I believe notice in the military is one of a handful of tactical exemptions the UK Govt managed to opt out of - similar to the work/time directive - I expect they have to 'follow the spirit' of EU legislation ie. ignore it.

[exairman]

Sidewayspeak,

Do not think you will get many responses. If you do it will be from those that have had weak management.

Been threatened a few times about 'EU laws' and 'my solicitors says...' but I have never been challenged.

[Wrathmonk]

You seriously think thay can hold us to 12,18 or 36 months when they have altered the rules to allow them to make us redundant with just 3 months pay?!!

Yep - called 'extingencies (sp?) of the Service' and, IIRC, is near the front of whatever MAFL is called these days. But feel free to try the 'I'm paid monthly' rule and let us know how you get on. I'm sure MCTC will have internet connection ....;). You never know we may see the introduction of a Stop-loss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-loss_policy)policy this side of the Atlantic (I know, it's a Wiki link but it's the best I could find at the mo ...)

And as I'm sure HMG would 'bend the rules' as long as it suits them you may want to look here (http://www.redundancyhelp.co.uk/PayQuick.htm#what_are_the_payments)at what the minimum statutory redundancy payment is. All based on a maximum of £380 per week (which for someone who has served, lets say 12 years from the age of 22, could result in a minimum statutory redundancy payment of 380 x 12 i.e £4560). Ho hum.

[sidewayspeak]

If someone no longer wants to serve, it is a waste of time trying to keep them. First, the medical cards - all those conditions that are just a bit tricky to 'prove' (bad back, stress etc) - beyond 40 most have something than could prevent a deployment if we really did not want to go.

Then there are the flight safety issues - simply make yourself unfit to fly using any of above.

Then there are numerous other ways you can undermine the team (quite legally) such that it would just be counter-productive to keep you. Unless they just wanted you to sweep the hangar floor. Even then, there are ways to screw that job up too. I doubt they would gain anything from making people stay.

Finally, please don't interpret this as someone who is keen to do any of above, I am merely going to take my option in a couple of years.

[VinRouge]

Sideways,

I am sure a 9 monther OOA in Helmand will sort out that little problem.

[sidewayspeak]

I am sure a 9 monther OOA in Helmand will sort out that little problem.

That's my point - if someone doesn't want to do something - like an OOA det - it is quite simple to get out of it using any of the bad back/stress avenues. Piss people off too much, and they will. Simples.

[vascodegama]

Uncle

That was exactly my point. As a CS Jim can have his half bottle of wine. Whereas we are subject to the ever changing judgement of Corporate Governance or whatever they call themselves.

[Jimlad1]

Vasco - I think the problem is that people don't seem to understand that the CS operate on a totally different set of T&C to the military. Complaining that the CS can have a 1/2 bottle of wine (an allowance that I doubt will last much longer) is like the CS complaining that the military get LSSA and the CS don't - its two different organisations with very different policies.

[Willard Whyte]

... is it true that Waddo self-cert everything...

No

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