The IPA at bmibaby [Archive]

Looker

17th Mar 2010, 19:18

Whilst I can understand your viewpoint about divided union representation I don't think that is likely at Baby now.

BALPA membership has plummeted in recent months/weeks due to the inept performance of the CC and PN. The members have been kept in the dark as to what is going on, not been consulted on major issues and there has been no link between the other BALPA CCs at Mainline or Regional.

To put some perspective on this - no consultation with the members before signing an agreement to defer for 2 years the 3rd year pay rise from a 3year pay deal. This deferral was signed back in 2009 and people are now just finding out about it now.

The PN has been evasive and disingenuous. Big BALPA simply refused to back members who had their contract of employment breached. Pilots had to resort to paying for a solicitor themselves to protect their rights of employment.

So the chance of having a 50 - 50 split with BALPA is not very likely.

Whilst the IPA may not be as well resourced as BALPA it doesn't have the hand cuffs that Big BALPA brings. I would wager its entertainment budget is significantly less as well!

And the troops are voting with their feet. Resignations a plenty from BALPA whilst IPA membership in Baby has rocketed - just shy of 50% in a matter of 2 weeks.

What the members want is a Union that is prepared to communicate, listen to the views of the people it represents and then negotiate with management using the mandate given to them. Its not rocket science but BALPA have failed to grasp this principle in Baby.

Looker

Bonfire of the Sanit

18th Mar 2010, 00:27

Looker

While I agree with some of what you say about BALPA, I cannot agree with it all. As far as I remember the company unilaterally deferred the pay rise in Apr 09. Is that correct or is my recollection amiss? Also there were some BALPA Base meetings late last year at which the reason for the 2 year deferral was quite openly explained. As I understood it the agreement which BALPA signed, after the announcement of redundancies, led to a much improved package for compulsory redundancy and was also intended to support the extra aircraft. Not using LIFO hurt a lot of people though in the end as far as I know there were no compulsory redundancies.

I have certainly suffered a detriment to my Ts and Cs but I would blame the management more than BALPA. Management have the authority and responsibility and they have not acted in a way I find desirable.

Firestorm

18th Mar 2010, 10:25

A change can only be a good thing. BALPA hasn't worked at BMI Baby as demonstrated by the redundancies of last year. Allied to that there needs to be a change of management. The Flight Operations Director seems to be a parody of New Labour with some neo Marxist agenda of equality, and redistribution of wealth. He takes little notice of other people's views, but applies his decisions unilaterally. The General Manager is spineless and clueless. The current situation isn't working so time to try something new.

Dreamshiner

18th Mar 2010, 12:14

I'm always sceptical of people posting with little or no history on here however exhibiting more than basic knowledge of this industry.

However on the points raised, a current BMIbaby pilot posted giving his/her direct experiences and thoughts of their peers. It is felt that one union hasn't been effective so has switched his support behind another to see if they can do more. They have shown they do believe in collective bargaining to achieve a common goal and are quite entitled to switch their support (we do live in a capitalist democracy after all).

I'm sure the IPA will throw everything at this because the outcome may raise their stock price and kudos among the pilot fraternity.

If nothing else it may make BALPA sit up, realise the perception of its effectiveness is being questioned regularly and change its approach which will ultimately benefit the whole pilot community in the UK.

Bonfire of the Sanit

18th Mar 2010, 14:15

Dreamshiner

I assume when you say are sceptical due to a lack of history then you mean me. However, a lack of Pprune history does not necessarily mean a lack of history in the industry. I fully agree that everyone should be free to choose the union and representation that they wish, as you say a capitalist democracy.

We should though do that on the basis of the facts and that is what I endeavoured to discuss re Lookers post. There was much discussion of the rationale behind the pay deferral prior to Christmas, it certainly has not just seeped out and a pay deferral was imposed across the pilot workforce last April.

I would love to see the payrise reinstated but how would the IPA change the company's position. The BMI Group is not the only airline with pay issues. Are peple suggesting a strike would be the way forward here?

MaximumPete

18th Mar 2010, 14:18

Get your guys to wake up BALPA Head Office and remind them who's paying their wages!!

MP;)

CaptainSensible

18th Mar 2010, 18:41

Yet again why let the truth get in the way of a good story!!!!. From Friday onwards a letter from the CC will be with every bmibaby pilot. Can I suggest you wait, read said letter and then if necessary make contact to clarify anything you do not understand.

Glibbly spouting stuff such as we have had redundancies therefore BALPA does not work is unfortunately the sort of drivel everyone at all levels of BALPA is having to combat.

The airline industry is in meltdown at the moment and some tough choices/decesions are having to be made. BALPA will always endeavour to put job retention first, but they do not have a magic wand and if the departing boss has chosen to take many millions out of the business along with bookings having fallen off a cliff then unfortunately there will be some pain along the way. If this means a pay deferral that helps to save jobs, is that such a bad thing?

sjm

18th Mar 2010, 19:27

As a former Balpa member at baby the main issue here is the way in which no one has been consulted on any issues since 2006(strike ballot) with the exception of wether to add our names to legal action against the company for holiday pay or pay deferal.

When they need the workforce to stick their necks on the line they communicate with us the rest of the time they just sign the deal and give us the news.:=

Maybe the IPA will or wont do any better but if they achieve nothing more than to just keep the members informed and listen to our views, its a giant step in the right direction.

You have to ask why the ops director is so desperate to keep Balpa as the union, is it because they are a pushover?
:confused:

Major Nevitt

21st Mar 2010, 10:09

For me it is not the name of the union but the strength of the membership that matters. For many reasons Balpa was never going to gain sufficient strength of numbers in Baby so a move to another union is a positive step forwards. I hope that the renewed interest in protecting our T's & C's continues and that as many people as possible do continue to get involved and remain involved.

Norman Stanley Fletcher

21st Mar 2010, 17:58

I do not fly for BMI Baby and wish the pilots there nothing but well. Well-meaning but utterly misled individuals like Dreamshiner have decided to give their energies in unemployment to discrediting BALPA. They are, of course, entitled to do that. Nonetheless, they have a fundamental misunderstanding of the realities of our world and a totally false hope in the capabilities of the IPA. The IPA have never fought, let alone won, a single battle of note in the airline industry. Many of my friends and colleagues are IPA members, and I have no problem with that. Nonetheless, it would be a grave error of judgement to think that they will do anything for you in a corporate sense. The only game in town is BALPA - warts and all.

There is, nonetheless, an incorrect perception among pilots there and elsewhere about what BALPA can and cannot do for you. If your company is unprofitable, there is an enormous limitation on what BALPA can do to improve your terms and conditions, and that is not BALPA's fault. It is vital for any pilot to grasp that fact rather than adopt a welfare state mentality that says, 'Because I pay my subs my job should be secure. If your company is not making money your job is not secure - it is that stark and you should not be deceived otherwise. There is no union in the world can change that. Management and investors have to produce a stable company and the pilots can then do their bit to make it run correctly. The best that BALPA can do with a loss-making company is ensure that redundancy deals are fair and reasonable. Let me say it again, BALPA cannot make an unprofitable company profitable. Sorry folks, but do not blame the messenger. Therefore, ask not what BALPA can do for you - ask what you can do for BALPA!

sjm

21st Mar 2010, 20:16

A few facts about Balpa's recent responses/actions etc..

One of the crew council members who left the company recently after the last round of redundancies, warned a few individuals against what the FORMER chairman was asking them to support, stating it was all to support his own cause.

Former Chairman has always wanted a Baby only seniority list as it moves himself and the current Chairman way up the list.

Current chairman when asked by a SFO about potentially having to take a pay cut for a seasonal command "Maybe you will have to take some pain for the promotion" was the reply.

Former Chairman has several times put the suggestion that capts seniority be based on date of command and not joining, again all helps his position on the seniority list.

Current Vice-chairman was against the secondment of SFOs to Left seat for the summer based on the fact that he and other Capts being forced onto seasonal contracts as a result of redundacies and would be earning less than said SFOs, however as soon as the situation changed for him personally( kept job full-time due VRs) he backed down screwing over his fellow Capts not so fortunate in the process.

So I ask you, is anyone really surprised that the troops are P:mad:d off and begining to revolt:ugh:

Now to be fair they have done an enormous amount at Baby, but, it is their mandate to do so and does not allow them based on history to screw us from now on.

In my opinion the IPA group were too quick, before checking the facts clearly, in releasing their latest memo and need to play a smarter, slower game in order to not dis-credit themselves before they start.

Budar

21st Mar 2010, 21:53

NSF- To be fair I think the backlash at BALPA within bmibaby is not because we think 'we pay our dues therefore our jobs should be secure' it is more because of the stance of the chairman and former chairman of the cc with regard to the selection of pilots for redundancy which if done in a similar process to the last 'matrix' ( against our contracts!) looks after themselves as far as any future redundandancies are concerned at the expense of pilots who had transfered from other parts of the bmi group, in many cases the transferees were actively encouraged by the chief pilot! (which I may add was when bmibaby had a huge need for experienced pilots to expand!)
Also though no less important the lack of input and feedback which the members of BALPA in bmibaby have had in the last couple of years!! I have now left BALPA after 12 years continuous membership and hope the IPA gains more members, I think a change can't do any worse and it may wake BALPA up a little at a national level although I doubt it!!!!

SR71

22nd Mar 2010, 10:33

As usual, good post NSF.

To me its a case of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater".

If the IPF could give a better service, it'd be the first time in the history of mankind that the rule "you get what you pay for" will have been violated.

Why not the detractors step up to the plate on a replacement or even a secondment basis to assist their fellow colleagues in a fight to maintain T&C's, disseminate information, mobilise troops...

All the time taking their extra days off, their additional leave, their additonal payments, forgetting about the jobs saved etc etc.

Would it be surprising to suggest that we all have vested interests one way or the other?

bn1

22nd Mar 2010, 10:58

If the IPA/IPF are so good why are they not already representing many other uk airlines? BALPA are not perfect and it may be that some on the council have their own hidden agenda. Do you think that the IPA will be any different? One of the main instigators IH has his own reasons for wanting the IPA in power. ie GDOJ over Baby seniority list. Do the people in the company not realise that if this remains the case it will only benefit a small number of people, ie the ex regional people (ie IH) and one ex bmi person who went back to bmi to see if the grass was greener and realised that it wasn't. People also have to realise that if mainline ever have more redundancies and baby are recruiting, baby have to offer the mainline pilots the job. This will hamper us all at baby especially many FOs as the people coming across from mainline will have a better GDOJ than many of us. Therefore if baby then has redundancies guess who keeps their jobs? It is also the case that if we move to mainline now we do not get to transfer our GDOJ. Not very fair at all. At the time when the regional friends of PD were employed by Baby they moved across with the impression that they would carry GDOJ. It is not exactly fair that this should be removed but there are also many other things that have been changed or removed (tea and coffee!!!) by the company. We have to protect ourselves for the future and think carefully whether the IPA really would be better?

sjm

22nd Mar 2010, 11:24

So you would compare tea and coffee on the same par as redundancies/breach of contract?
The simple solution to the whole sorry saga is to re-write the seniority list based on Gdoj up until this Point then do away with the right to keep Gdoj on transfering from regional or mainline for anything other than calculation of payment . Let those here already keep their Gdoj and then draw a line I. The sand.
But the CC won't do it because it weakens their position on the list.

I am not a particular fan of the individual you mention(IH) he and the other instigaters of the Ipa have a valid point, Our MOA has been walked all over and it has to stop, should have been stopped last year, the last thing we need on top of the company cherry picking what they want to abide by is the union doing the same.

SR71

22nd Mar 2010, 17:30

Hey INKY,

The letter about the Pay Alleviation agreement was sent to BALPA members on 17/11/09. It isn't BALPA's fault the company didn't publicize the agreement although, in the circumstances, one wonders how a pilot could fail to understand what had happened especially bearing in mind the significance of that period.

angelorange

22nd Mar 2010, 17:39

I wish all bmi baby crews success in their endeavours. Having been a member of BALPA, Prospect and IPA/IPF in various piloting jobs I have to say only IPA/IPF gave a stuff about pay and conditions. The others bowed to management every time. Yes they are small and less famous/infamous than BALPA, but much more approachable and affordable.

Whatever you decide - stick together!

Dreamshiner

22nd Mar 2010, 18:48

Norman Stanley Fletcher
"Well-meaning but utterly misled individuals like Dreamshiner have decided to give their energies in unemployment to discrediting BALPA. They are, of course, entitled to do that. Nonetheless, they have a fundamental misunderstanding of the realities of our world and a totally false hope in the capabilities of the IPA"

OK my right to reply. First, my current status should have no bearing if I post on here or if my views (which is based purely on my personal experiences) should not have the same credence or merit to a 20 year time served captain. I don't think the patronising tone of your first paragraph does the second (some points I agree with incidentally) any favours.

The poll you talk about is in response to a question posed by Piltdown Man on another thread. I was aware BALPA do get a lot of criticism sometimes justified and sometimes not. I decided to see if my experiences and views were mirrored in my peers or if I was out of kilter. The one thing I really want to see is a strong unified union representing me and my contemporaries robustly and fairly. I think it would be ideal if it was BALPA as they already have the largest base - yes, you read correctly, contrary to what you wrote, I hold no torch for the IPA, however did find them much more helpful than BALPA at 2 significant stages in my career. However I also feel BALPA needs shaken up from the grass roots and restructured, BA CC excluded, if anything they should be used as an example for others to emulate.

The general consensus is that some company councils punch above their weight resulting in a favourable view among their pilot group. The perceived inactivity of BALPA nationally also seems to be a view held almost universally from all sides of the spectrum even those very happy with their T&C's negotiated by their direct representatives.

I also have no interest in discrediting BALPA, I have an interest on accountability and won't sit idly by watching my profession go down the tubes with a blinkered 'don't rock the boat' attitude adopted. I know you feel debate and god forbid, criticism, should be taboo and curtailed. I would recommend you review a little book called 1984 next time you are in the prison library.

As for this thread, it would appear 4 posters, Looker, sjm, INKJET and Budar are or have at one point been BMi Baby employees. Universally they are unhappy with the behaviour of their elected reps and inactivity on a national level. I'll let what they've posted influence my view rather than the opinions of someone promoting BALPA come hell or high water when his own airline runs roughshod and takes the mick.

If this precedent continues it won't be polls or criticism levelled on PPRuNe that discredit BALPA nationally, I think you'll find they'll do it quite adequately themselves.

Pray tell guru of truth, bastion of worldly realities, what is it my little brain and limited intelligence has omitted to consider to align myself with your omnipotent theories?

Budar

22nd Mar 2010, 19:12

'The simple solution to the whole sorry saga is to re-write the seniority list based on Gdoj up until this Point then do away with the right to keep Gdoj on transfering from regional or mainline for anything other than calculation of payment . Let those here already keep their Gdoj and then draw a line In The sand.
But the CC won't do it because it weakens their position on the list.'

SJM couldn't agree more.

SR71 I was a BALPA member up until 3 weeks ago, at the end of Dec I had to call BALPA head office to get them to send me all the newsletters which had distributed because I had recieved sweet FA in the previous few months!! Apart from the log!!!! One meeting with some of the CC when redundancies were announced, next time I see my union reps was a few days before the end of the 90 day consultation period.( with the management present!!) Value for money I think not!!

The BmiBaby CC need to ask themselves why has there been such a backlash against them. Seeing posts whereby the chairman refers to pilots who don't agree with him as 'groupies' has helped me make my decision to leave BALPA. A decision which I might add was not taken lightly. The 10 page drivel sent by the company...... sorry the CC has only reinforced my view that it is time for a change.

miles offtarget

22nd Mar 2010, 19:47

Norman Stanley Fletcher,

I have no idea as to who you are, or for whom you work, however I feel that your view of the modern workplace may have ossified whilst you have been behind bars.

Firstly,

'...Nonetheless, they have a fundamental misunderstanding of the realities of our world and a totally false hope in the capabilities of the IPA. The IPA have never fought, let alone won, a single battle of note in the airline industry.'

A simple schoolboy post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy; the IPA have never been presented with an opportunity to try and win a 'battle of note within the airline industry', but as amazing as it sounds, until a few years ago I had 'never flown, let alone landed, a Boeing 737 in the airline industry' either, yet having been given a chance to do so, I find it's quite straightforward really. Perhaps the IPA may just get used to it too ?

'...grasp that fact rather than adopt a welfare state mentality that says, 'Because I pay my subs my job should be secure. If your company is not making money your job is not secure - it is that stark and you should not be deceived otherwise. '

This is an easier one; you have simply missed the point.

True, the baby management (PD aside) don't seem to be the brightest and most able of their generation; however we are not arguing about that. Few if any of us have run an airline in the worst recession for a generation, and I suspect we would find it a little more difficult that it may seem from FL370. However, we are arguing that this company have unilaterally changed our TCs, ignored previously agreed pay arrangements and disregarded the contract that we signed on joining the bmi group. (I have not even started on loss of licence criteria yet).

Better management would have enlisted the support of it's workforce in times of difficulty rather than pi****g them off, (literally and metaphorically), a bit more Guy Gibson rather than Capt Bligh would have worked wonders, we are reasonable people. But that's their perogative, it's their decision. We looked to BALPA to defend legally binding agreements that were already in place, and they singularly failed to do so.

'...The best that BALPA can do with a loss-making company is ensure that redundancy deals are fair and reasonable'.

Errrr.... they did not. The company reduced pilot numbers by base last year, tried this year, and may well do so again in October.

'...The only game in town is BALPA - warts and all '.

Seemingly not. BALPA have forfeited their mandate and there are several other options, the most suitable of which may well prove to be an association that is keen to enhance it's standing amongst the pilot community.

There are other issues, but I think you get my point.

Lastly though, I'm still not entirely sure what a 'welfare state mentality' is ? I did visit my GP recently, drove to the shops on a public road this afternoon, and have a street lamp outside my house, so I'm a bit worried that this might count ? I do hope you can help.

All the best.

MoT

SR71

22nd Mar 2010, 20:44

INKY,

The information was received by me via email.

But I'm curious...

At the point at which the company decided they were going to ride rough-shod over the MOA, despite protestations from the CC (BALPA or otherwise), assuming it was the IPA in the room, what would have been different?

And the suggestion the IPA would have won a strike mandate is laughable in the extreme because the disgruntled minority are just that....a minority.

Once again, interests that need protecting wherever you look...

I'd absolutely agree the transfer arrangement and MOA need to be looked at, but I'd be careful before one re-writes it too early...

sjm's proposal sounds initially attractive, but in a climate where bmi have shrunk to the necessary size and are now growing their longhaul network and flying big metal under LH's watchful eye, any right to move sideways into that element of the group might appeal to some of those who already have group service and quite fancy the LHR longhaul experience.

One tends to forget this facilitation because in the present economic situation, it seems more likely that bmi refugees might want to exploit the agreement to their advantage coming the other way...

Still if it is true that bmibaby employees, on transferring to bmi, already lose their seniority, well....

This is a mess created by, IMHO, bmi HR.

BALPA mitigated the fallout to such an extent that compulsory redundancies were avoided.

And contrary to what miles has said, as I understand it, nothing in the MOA has changed (i.e., our T&C's have not been changed) even though aspects of it have obviously been disregarded.

I wholeheartedly agree, though, time to move on.

sjm

22nd Mar 2010, 20:59

SR-71 i think that ships sailed me old mucker, Its already happening by the looks of it else where:

bmi regional recruitment

Successful candidates will be issued with a regional Contract of Employment, be subject to regional Terms and Conditions, including the Regional Transfer Agreement and will have to accept a regional base. Hopefully the base will be known before the commencement of training however this cannot be guaranteed at this time. Successful candidates will be treated as new joiners.

Looker

22nd Mar 2010, 21:15

I think the number of disgruntled pilots at Baby must be close to 100%, nobody I speak to in the crewrooms thinks that life is perfect at the moment.

If your comment is aimed at the people who had the courage to ask the other pilots the straight forward question - 'would you support a change away from BALPA' - then the results from our website poll would demostrate quite clearly that we are not the minority.

We are not so naive to believe that changing to the IPA will guarantee a parting of the Red Sea or a Road to Damascus conversion for our Flt Ops Dir.
However, we can ensure that pilots are fully consulted, that a properly mandated agenda is drawn up and taken to the negotiating table and that pilots are kept informed.

We have an opportunity to change the way that Baby pilots are represented. That change seems to have resonated with my colleagues because they are backing the change and the IPA now have a majority.

The next interesting question is - will BALPA recognise they no longer represent the majority of Baby pilots and agree to stand down? Given their righteous stance at DHL one would hope so.

Looker

Budar

22nd Mar 2010, 21:24

SR71

At the point at which the company decided they were going to ride rough-shod over the MOA, despite protestations from the CC (BALPA or otherwise), assuming it was the IPA in the room, what would have been different?

Don't know but a former chairman of the CC might not of been present to seize the moment as an oportunity to push his own agenda (alledgedly)i.e. negating GDOJ

And the suggestion the IPA would have won a strike mandate is laughable in the extreme because the disgruntled minority are just that....a minority.

Seems that the minority is turning into a bit a more, with lots of colleauges I know leaving BALPA.

BALPA mitigated the fallout to such an extent that compulsory redundancies were avoided

Nothing to do with Ryanair and FlyDubai of course!!! Although the compulsory pay cut... sorry seasonal working helped!

This is a mess created by, IMHO, bmi HR

Who in other parts of the company i.e. mainline and regional acted completely differently with regard to seat, base and essentially LIFO!!
Did the Baby CC not liase with their counterparts in the other parts of company NO! why not?

Looker

22nd Mar 2010, 21:47

Firstly welcome to PPRuNE - we're glad to welcome 1st timers to the debating chamber.

You make a valid point about the complexities of GDOJ v BDOJ. When Baby was expanding quickly then GDOJ was not an issue - everyone's job was safe who was thinking about redundancies then? But the changing economic situation has brought this issue sharply into focus. What is needed is for the nettle to be grasped and the issue to be debated by all the pilots. I am sure a reasonable compromise that protects the interests of existing Baby pilots with a GDOJ and also protects existing pilots from possible future transferees bringing a GDOJ with them is not beyond the collective intelligence.

What is not acceptable is to simply publicly ignore the problem after the 1st round of redundancies at BHX and let it bite you again during the 2nd round of redundancies. If the ex BALPA CC Chair had a viewpoint on GDOJ then he should have consulted the pilots and gone with the majority view rather than trying to manipulate the situation behind the scenes.

Looker

Brushtype4

23rd Mar 2010, 07:57

Miles offtarget, although it's not as good a scheme as most of us would have liked, Seasonal working at bmibaby was a choice between a permanent job or redundancy for those affected by the criteria.

For the benefit of fact, they get 71% of basic salary year round but a variable roster pattern ranging from 100% full time during the summer to 50% in the winter. Note that they also get 71% salary when working the 50% roster in the winter.

The day off bought rate when working 100% rosters is the same as a full timer.

miles offtarget

23rd Mar 2010, 09:31

Thanks for making that clear.

Of course 71% is far better than 0%, and with few other options available it's a good one to take.

As for the day off payment, I stand corrected, will check my sources on 'Galley FM' more carefully in future, and fire my sub-editor.

speedy688

23rd Mar 2010, 09:48

The company is actually being true to their word and upgrading some of us seasonal pilots back to full-time after only 2 months on the reduced salary! :)

SR71

23rd Mar 2010, 10:07

I don't know half of what happened behind "closed doors", so to speak, so I am not attempting to defend the indefensible.

My hunch is that unless people confirm the veracity of the information they splash all over various forums, all they will do is inflame the situation, rather than engender a sense of solidarity.

I still wish someone could outline to me how a multi-base airline like Regional can run with LIFO but another multi-base airline within the same group cannot run with LIFO?

The situation is, in the words of Gunnery Sergeant Highway, a major "cluster****".

sjm,

Isn't that clause contradictory? What is the Regional Transfer Agreement? Or is that a clause dealing with "Base Transfers" once in employment?

Still, its a shame, IMHO, if this "protectionist" attitude prevails within the group.

Regards communication, bmibaby had a BALPA Forum, which every member was subscribed to, on which members could voice their opinions about whatever they felt like.

But hardly anyone ever used it.

It seems to me a more sensible use of the collective resource/sentiment is for one of the IT-inclined pilots to set up a neutral, non-associated forum which every baby pilot could contribute to and for the debate about the "way forward" to take place before ditching the existing status quo.

You will never convince a proportion of the pilot fratenity that the IPA have the resource to represent pilots on the "global" stage which BALPA attempt to do.

When in 2012 we lose the right to set our own FTL's, and fall into line with Europe, are you going to wish you'd had a Union that can see the bigger picture and do something about it?

Not much use fighting for 11 days off per month, but winding up flying a 1000 hours per year is there?

Apologies if the IPA are doing something about this issue. I can't see anything on their WWW site to suggest it is...

What I would fear is that the industrial unrest prejudices what is a critical year in which, by all accounts, the company are actually on target to make some money.

At the end of the day, I''m fairly sure that, at this point in the macroeconomic cycle, that is really the only thing LH care about.

speedy688

23rd Mar 2010, 13:46

Long overdue!

Looker

23rd Mar 2010, 16:29

Will anyone notice when he's gone?

He perfected the role of the grey man - anonymous to the core.

The DLH broom being put to good use.

miles offtarget

23rd Mar 2010, 16:33

nec vitia nostra nec remedia pati possumus I suspect.

Nubboy

23rd Mar 2010, 16:53

As an outsider with a residual interest in baby, it's fascinating watching the discussion here.

From a historical perspective IIRC, the IPA was formed when a group of pilots also felt very let down by BALPA following the takeover of DAN Air by BA (a very long time ago now).

It's also noticeable how the different cc's within the bmi group have been able to make very different concessions from their relevant managements.

The stumbling blocks to all unions in this country are the laws set in favour of the employers, meaning the pilots will always be reacting to situations, and the pilots getting effective leadership in their own CC, coupled with getting effective support from their menbers. A very difficult task indeed.:ugh:

Hudson Bay

23rd Mar 2010, 20:16

Is it correct that the MD has been pushed or did he go by his own free will?

If he went on his own accord does he know something that we don't?

With the Ops Director lining up interviews for himself the message coming out of Tiny town does not instil much confidence for the future.

What does everybody else think?

flying for fun

24th Mar 2010, 01:17

Hmmm. Perhaps the BDOJ/GDOJ arguement will proove to be an irrelivance and that the delayed pay increase (the one that the Company wasn't going to pay regardless) in return for an improved redundancy package might be the best thing that the CC ever did?

Firestorm

24th Mar 2010, 09:27

I would have a had a boot squarely between his shoulderblades if I'd been given the opportunity.

sjm

24th Mar 2010, 10:33

Mr Rix's career in the industry spans more than 30 years.
He has held senior positions with several UK airlines including Dan Air, bmi Regional and bmibaby.
During his time at bmibaby, he brought the airline to the top position in the UK in terms of reliability and punctuality among low-cost carriers, Tiger said.
"We are delighted that Crawford will be joining us later in the year," Mr Davis said.
"With his experience and track record, he will be a great asset to the business."

Hudson Bay

24th Mar 2010, 10:48

Well, one thing nobody can deny, we have had more information from Julian in his first letter to the troops than we ever did from Mr Rix in 4 years.

I doubt very much Tiger are fully aware of his track record. Blowing trumpets out of ones backside about punctuality when we operate half a dozen flights per day is nothing to be proud about.

Good luck to the man.

Will Mr Berry follow? I would!

Facelookbovvered

24th Mar 2010, 11:13

You need to gett your facts corrrect if your going to start slagging CR off!!

It wasn't two rounds of redundancies, it was three if you count Teesside!!

They ought to good at it by now?

Firestorm

24th Mar 2010, 11:16

Wasn't he chief hotac booker at British Midland? A skill set that was successfully transferred to an airline with no scheduled nightstops!

max nightstop

24th Mar 2010, 14:31

I'd like to clarify a myth with regard to transfers to mainline from baby. You currently keep your group date of joining but you join the seniority list at the bottom. This means that you are protected in the event of redundancy consultations as your previous time served counts for you. However you don't get any preferrential bidding rights over those that have been there longer.

Given that this doesn't appear to be reciprocated by baby any more, I imagine that any new transferees will shortly lose that right, which would be a shame for them as it might make them think twice about moving. However, I can't see the mainline CC, who seem a deal more capable than baby's, reacting any other way.

AFAIK regional and mainline maintain this mutually beneficial stance, and anyone moving to regional in this latest recruitment would expect the same.

Max

sjm

25th Mar 2010, 10:13

Rumour was at DHL they(balpa) did a ballot to decide who the workforce wanted to represent them, but only balloted the Balpa members.

The fact also remains that some people will be members of both unions and a simple membership majority in terms of baby pilot mumbers may not indicate that, that many actually want IPA to take over, based on the strike ballot 3/4 years ago Balpa aren't exactly switched on when it comes to ballots.

Although IPA membership is 50%+, is the figure the same registered on the IPA babypilot group website asking if you would support the change?

Only way that everyone will be convinced it is representitve of the whole workforces view is if, in my opinion, the company does the ballot.

320seriesTRE

25th Mar 2010, 14:35

Why IPA and not BALPA?

Looker

25th Mar 2010, 20:33

Numbers on the website show support is 60+%

al446

25th Mar 2010, 21:13

SJM - I was active on a thread about BALPA membership in RYR a while back and, due to a PM I was sent through that I was told that BALPA was on the verge of winning a recognition ballot when DHL invited IPA recognition despite them having very few members, BALPA had 50%+.

It would follow that many would join IPA as the recognised union and says nothing about BALPA.

Roomparty

27th Mar 2010, 01:05

Guys can I take this opportunity to cut straight to the chase here.
It does not matter one bit which organisation is representing its pilots, whether you are wearing around your scrawny neck an IPA id card holder or a BALPA one as in both cases it is our own pilots that are representing us....period!

Its all very well shouting about who has the biggest and shiniest office and who has the biggest budget, but how much of either have we seen at baby?

In the case of BALPA it is a fundimental failing of epic proportions that the council can enter into negotiations behind closed doors, fail or refuse to publish minutes of important meetings and then privately agree to measures that have a serious impact on the pilots that they are supposed to represent without balloting them.
We should all expect clarity and accountability from whoever is representing us in future.

I am sure that the BALPA CC have worked very hard in the past but sadly I feel that they have let themselves down by not following correct protocols that have sadly exposed them to allegations of impropriety.

Looker

29th Mar 2010, 07:38

That is a pretty accurate precis of recent events and why Baby pilots are resigning from BALPA en masse.

Dreamshiner

7th Apr 2010, 17:12

Just interested to know almost 10 days on from the last post if Baby pilots are impressed or feel its more of the same with respect to the IPA. maybe its too soon to determine either of the above.

As has been discussed they have quite an opportunity here give a good account of themselves and maybe give themselves a little more credibility in our industry.

I think a number of people, myself included are interested to see how this particular battle pans out.

Ideally BALPA could have dealt with this but I and nobody else can blame the current pilots there from exploring alternatives if what written so far on this thread has transpired.