Cathay Pacific approached to operate BA flights during BA Cabin Crew strike

[Harbour Dweller]

Currently being discussed in Fragrant Harbour forum

Cathay to Operate BA flights
CX will wet lease 1 x 744 to BA commencing this weekend for 14 days.
The aircraft will operate as Speedbird 25 LHR-HKG-LHR.
BA wanted 2 jets but CX can only 'help out' with 1.

[Airbubba]

Yep, I remember United sent crews to Oz to help out during the AFAP mass resignation in 1989 until someone called them on it.

[Bus429]

Actually, Airbubba, quite a few UK operators sent aircraft and crews to Australia then.
(I still remember that long night in Karnia trying to fix that bleed leak indication that grounded you there about 10 years ago :ooh:).

[Old Fella]

At least BA have wet leased an aircraft rather than have their government call in the military, unlike the Great Yobbo Bob Hawke.

[seat 0A]

Doesn`t Unite have any mutual assistance agreements with their fellow unions abroad?
If BALPA called for a legal strike, I`m sure that BA would have a hard time to find any wet- or drylease aircraft available anywhere :E

[stator vane]

a news article said 40 airlines!

i wonder if mine is one of them?

stansted base with a slight touch of blue and white.

[Tyrekicker2]

So what's the big deal? BA leases, charters whatever it can find with wings to keep the flights going during the strike. It is costing them a lot of money to do that and a lot of effort and inconvenience. But what it is doing is making sure that whenever the strike is finally resolved, there is a job to come back to. This idea of everyone else having to support the strike is 1960s thinking :ugh:. Let a few other companies benefit from extra revenue during these hard times at BA's cost.

[Fubaar]

I wonder why BA feel the need to look as far afield as CX? If the Brit charter airline pilots repeat their valiant efforts with the same alacrity as they did in tearing off to Oz in 1989 without even attempting to hide their utter glee to be screwing the careers of fellow pilots, they'll be positively tripping over themselves to do the same to 'mere' cabin crew.

Or was 1989 a 'colonial' thing that they wouldn't consider doing to 'their own'? Myself, I think not. There have always been those among us who seem to relish eating their young.

This idea of everyone else having to support the strike is 1960s thinking....as was having a job in the aviation industry that was worth having. (Spoken like a true 'hero', Tyrekicker.)

[B772]

Fubaar. I would have thought it was obvious to most that CX would be approached if an operation HKG-LHR-HKG was required.

[sleeper]

Not just far afield.
Transavia and Arkefly have also been approached to fly for BA

[sb_sfo]

Not to mention that it keeps the revenue in the oneWorld alliance?

[CargoOne]

Fubaar

I wonder why BA feel the need to look as far afield as CX? If the Brit charter airline pilots repeat their valiant efforts with the same alacrity as they did in tearing off to Oz in 1989 without even attempting to hide their utter glee to be screwing the careers of fellow pilots, they'll be positively tripping over themselves to do the same to 'mere' cabin crew.

The problem is getting 3-class aircraft. Those are almost exclusively in major airline fleets (or stored, which makes it uneconimical to re-active for short period only). Charter and ACMI airlines only have 1-class charter configs, some have 2-class with a small number of old-style C-class seats. So it is quite understandable BA is looking to get some other majors to operate at least most lucrative routes.

Anyway one aircraft cannot cover daily LHR-HKG-LHR, so there will be some lottery for those who paid 5-10k quid for their C or F tickets.

[MarkD]

At least BA have wet leased an aircraft rather than have their government call in the military, unlike the Great Yobbo Bob Hawke.The British Government doesn't have military transport to call in - that's the main difference. The public might accept Green Goddesses for firefighting but they sure as hell won't get on a VC10 once MOL starts running ads about them!

[er340790]

but they sure as hell won't get on a VC10

JUST TRY ME!!!

[WindSheer]

You have got to side with BA on all this.

They are trying to bring their crew down a peg or two......:ok:

[Panop]

A little off track, but for the record, the RAAF wasn't exactly flush with quality passenger transports either in 1989. Their contribution was a few C-130s which SLFs filled up with varying degrees of enthusiasm. Methinks a VC10 even in its dotage would be sheer luxury in comparison.

[Dairyground]

Seat 0A


Doesn`t Unite have any mutual assistance agreements with their fellow unions abroad?
If BALPA called for a legal strike, I`m sure that BA would have a hard time to find any wet- or drylease aircraft available anywhere


Anyone who cares to wade through 160 or so pages about the dispute on the cabin crew forum will find that the cabin crew represented by the BASSA element of Unite don't even have much support among Unite members working in other parts of the company.

[UFGBOY]

Surprised they havn't been approached for extra capacity ?

[silverstreak]

BA leasing-in from following to cover 1st round of proposed strikes

Jet2, Titan, Astraeus, Transavia, Viking, EuroAtlantic and Arkefly...

[CargoOne]

MTOW

B772 and Cargo One, I think you'll find that Fubaar's tongue was firmly in his cheek and the point he was trying to make very much elsewhere than appropriate seating configurations when he asked why BA would look to Cathay for strike-"mitigating" aircraft and crew.


Well I sometimes can miss the things (not my native language), but I don't see anything wrong with CX to spare their aircraft & crew to BA. That's business, nothing personal.

[wiggy]

it is time the inexorable deterioration over the last twenty years in the conditions of service of airline pilots, cabin crew and engineers was put a stop to. I support the BA cabin crew

And the view from the other hemisphere/Old World is that the engineers and pilots at BA have already taken pay cuts and agreed productivity changes in the hope of having a company to work for in the forseeeable future. The BA Cabin Crew are arguing about the imposition of working "one down". Indeed the only people who have suggested Cabin Crew should take a pay cut are their own Union.....

[cactusbusdrvr]

What does Australia and the dispute have to do with BA and CX? Are all the Aussies flying for CX going to refuse to fly BA routes during a BA strike? I have a feeling the answer is: "Sure, we will fly".

[Captain Dart]

It sounds like that's the answer you want, Cactus.

[ChicoG]

Doesn`t Unite have any mutual assistance agreements with their fellow unions abroad?
If BALPA called for a legal strike, I`m sure that BA would have a hard time to find any wet- or drylease aircraft available anywhere

BALPA won't. It supports the company and doesn't want BASSA to drag it down the toilet.

[Fubaar]

It's funny how there are always some who wish everyone would forget Australia and 1989, isn't it? Some might ask - why? Could it be guilty conscience?

I wonder how many of them have ever spared one moment to think what part they played in the awful T&Cc we all "enjoy" today with their willingness, some would say eagerness, to screw over the careers of fellow pilots who were involved in a complex dispute that THEY had nothing to do with and which THEY knew nothing about except what the self-serving Australian airline companies fed them?

Remembering 1989, it's so "sixties".

Remembering the days when there was career progression and good T&Cs. Not "21st century", it would seem.

[FlightDetent]

Question on labour agreements and strike provisions, though I realize this BA is a CC not FC issue.

The gist in our LA is (my very rough translation):a) contrary to scope clause, the company may utilize external FC to fly aircraft registered on its AOC during the time of FC strike;
b) FC may refuse to work flights operated on behalf of other airline during their FC strike (wet lease-out), such action is not a breach of contract;
c) FC may refuse to work on other airline's aircraft during their FC strike (contracting FC), such action is not a breach of contract.
Essential meaning is that during strike company is entitled to seek contract FC elswhere. If the roles were reversed, however, our FC cannot be forced to accept work in-lieu of striking pilots. Of course I note that the cover is FC to FC only.

I'd like to ask, is it common to have such mutual provisions in the labour agreements around? What about CC, is it normal for them too, provided they are unionized. While I do not suppose CX CC have a union (or do they?), what would be the CX FC guidliness towards theoretical BA FC strike?

Thanks,
FD (the un-real)

PS: Clearly, the right to refuse is signed. Whether personell would step back or happily turn themselves in - that's another cup of tea.

[Bamse01]

Yep, I remember United sent crews to Oz to help out during the AFAP mass resignation in 1989 until someone called them on

not true, that would be America West

[beaver_rotate]

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/files/2010/03/image001-147.jpg

[cactusbusdrvr]

America West 737s were chartered by Ansett, who owned 25% of AWA and held the leases on half our 737s.

United flew domestic passengers between SYD and MLB as part of their scheduled flights. Before the dispute UAL did not pick up any pax in SYD.

I do not know what this has to do with today. The industry as far as pay and workrules were done in by deregulation and open skies, not a labor dispute 20 years ago. There were 2 domestic airlines in Australia in 1989, now there are how many, 4 at least? The only international carrier was Qantas, now you have more, correct? So the opportunites are greater since deregulation but the working conditions have eroded because of all the new entrants. It is a free market that the labor unions cannot hold hostage like they once did.

Just as the major airlines in the US lost their golden status once deregulation became law, so too goes the world market. BA feels the hit from Ryanair, Lufthansa from Air Berlin and so on. This is a new marketplace for pilot jobs. If you have unfettered access to entry in a market then you will have downward pressure on salaries because labor is the easiest cost to control and it is all about controlling costs now.

I made the remark about CX pilots flying the routes not because I really care if they do or not. I believe they will because it is business and business dictates how and where you fly. CX and BA have no union in common. It would be impossible to call this struck work when you have two different airlines in two different countries. The only way would be if there was a labor agreement within the alliance. Does CX hve that sort of agreement with BA?

[ArkeVlaai]

ArkeFly from Holland will be doing some BA flights to Moscow , nice to go somewhere else for a day as well , were not on a collective agreement and CEO says we can basically do what we want anyway.

[golfyankeesierra]

If BA is prepared to hire Arke fly, they're really in dire straits...:}

On a more serious note, Arkevlaai, aren't your cabin crew member of VNC (or any other union)?

BTWnice to go somewhere else for a day as well
Can't imagine someone actually enjoying to be a scab, but then again I also can't imagine anyone enjoying a trip to SVO:ugh:

[boredcounter]

PA31, BE90 or BE20 etc. flying into LHR to preserve slots? LH is on the doorstep. or will BA use Pilots to ferry equipment to CWL and back

[Ken Borough]

There are a number of wide-bodies owned by carriers such as Qantas, Singapore Air, Malaysian etc on the ground at Heathrow from quite early morning to late evening. It will be interesting to know if BA have tried to charter these aircraft from good quality carriers for day-trip rotations to/from Europe?

[ASFRY]

ryanair will Be operating Today 20, 21, 22 ba Flights From Gatwick Airport To Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow And Prestwick.
confirm By Crew + Pilots Sent Today By Taxi To Hotel And Airport. 3 Aircraft Base There Next 3 Days.
This Are Ba Flights, Not Extra Ryanair Ones.
Pick Up Arrange By Ba From Concourse House To Planes
Happy Flying!!!

[rubik101]

One wonders quite what the passengers will make of the Ryanair cabin service, unless of course, it is to be modified to be more in line with the BA norm. If it is, I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of them will hardly notice the difference. I also suspect that MOL and his buddy, WW (surely they are now best mates?) are in frequent and heated discussion as to how the Ryanair model can be implemented in post-strike, BA, which is, after all, the whole point of this expensive and disruptive exercise.
The lowest common denominator is the most poweful number in mathematics, it is also the ultimate goal of (almost) all airline CEOs, to maximise return using the minimum possible resources. If Ryanair can do it, so can the rest.

[22/04]

Ryanair aeroplanes (presumably) using Speedbird callsigns - who'd have thought it!

Truth is stranger than fiction!

[MrBernoulli]

I suppose the Ryanair crews will be getting longer turn-rounds than they are used to, if flying BA schedules? The cabin crew might actually get a hand to clear up the cabin between sorties, if the regular contractors are still involved. Ryanair crews might even get to enjoy that. :ok:

Or will that mad, miserable MOL have ensured that didn't happen?

[fireballxl5]

Titans B767 G-POWD has been busy today as have a good number of the Jet2 fleet. Astraysrus been helping out too as well as Viking Pigs!:E

[hunterboy]

More importantly, are scratch cards available for sale on board? I wouldn't want to miss out.

[Frogga]

Good to see all the airlines operating for BA today down at Heathrow, shame about the 40 aircraft parked up nose to tail.

Shame about the idiots striking waving there banners everywhere and driving around looking for support.

I hav no sympathy for them at all, lets face it, I would rather have a job than be a person who could well bankrupt the job I have an lose it!

Think they need to look at themselves intead of the t****rs of unite!

[marconiphone]

As an outsider I'm baffled by the suicidal impulse displayed by the BA cabin crew.

They are putting at risk the company and their own jobs without that much justification and with very little public sympathy - classic 1970s 'organised labour' behaviour.

The whole thing's really weird. They must be wearing blinkers.

Tim

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

Sounds dreadful to say, but I think alot of the BA Flight Crew are ungrateful for where they sit in the aviation industry as it is


I know a whole bunch of people who would love to be in a pilot job right now


Mate. I know News takes while to Arrive in Gove. The pilots have got nothing to do with this dispute. It's the Cabin Crew. :ugh:

[William A Bong]

Slight thread drift but...

If BA pilots are working as cabin crew on their days off during this dispute, does the CC duty time count towards flight crew duty time? And are there other FTL implications?

[dustyprops]

We've watched T&C's slowley slosh down the toilet over the last goodness knows how long, because, through no fault of our own, and often due to mismanagement, companies have had to make cuts to survive. These "cuts" never come back, that's why there are threads here where we all bitch and moan about the state of things in aviation, and why we get no respect, and we feel devalued as pilots etc......

Like it or not, BA c/crew are just looking after themselves, something we don't do very well at all.

[tocamak]

Don't know who was operating the evening BA flight into AMS yeaterday (white airbus) but seems odd not to have had the place in the fms database and need to rely on vectors from sugol. Very helpful atc both in the air and on the ground (and the crew did show their appreciation).

[pedds]

Could well have been the Astraeus A320...they do have one operating for BA this weekend. I think it is in 'all white'. Being ACMI there are sometimes operations when the database requirements get a little ahead of what can be loaded into the FMC memory especially on the slightly older planes with limited memory.