GA Training in Canberra...going...going...gone!

[Flyingblind]

News splashed over the front page of today's Canberra Times reports ( no links as it's not on their website) that Brindabella's Flight training school will close to new students in April, doors to the school for the remaining students will close in September. ( no link to Brindabella either as it's not on their website - yet)

The owners cite various Government cost increases as the main factor in the schools closure, no mention of the airport owners (private company) or insurance costs but I should imagine that it's a mixture of all three.

One of the owners stated that there's plenty of students but its Government policy and rising costs that have led to the closure.

Three full time and seven part time potions will be lost, looks like the guys and gals will have to go north or west for work.

In 2000 there were six flying schools in Canberra with Brindabella being the last to close their doors. There are no other options in Canberra for GA Training, an hour and a half's drive on the Hume north to Goulburn (under new owners with big plans for a major Sydney freight airport) or south to Cooma will see any your training requirements met.

So, who's to blame? Government, Airport owner or nobody....just 'the state of the industry'.

Welcome to GA etc.

[Fodwomple]

Yep, it's a bit sad that. But I think the writing has been on the wall for a while. The Canberra Airport Group don't want GA here. At least, not at their airport and the ACT government doesn't seem too interested in financing a small GA strip within reach.As a student pilot in Canberra who has (fortunately) just passed my GFPT I am now scratching my head and wondering what to do, and where to go, now! I guess, to find the silver lining, at least my per hour flying costs should come down. Where ever I decide to go!

[Green_pilot_79]

GA dead in Canberra. Try all of australia. I blame the support from government agencies. We are well well behind other countries and still living in the ice age with this.

[Sunfish]

YMMB has been quiet since Christmas.

[rioncentu]

These :mad: need to remember there are very few pilots to fly their jets without training in GA.

[hillbillybob]

recommendations for flying schools near canberra?

need to finish my CPL somewhere

[VH-XXX]

YMMB has been quiet since Christmas

I beg to differ, but it's been flat out every time I've been there lately. There are more aircraft there than there has been for at least 10 years with the Grange road and Centre D'nong road parking areas near overflowing. In fact on Sunday I witnessed a twin being told to taxi and vacant the runway as there were 4 aircraft behind ready to depart and the twin hadn't got it's IFR details yet. Haven't seen that in recent times.

GA is certainly NOT dead.

[85trx]

Curtis aviation in Camden takes about 2.5hrs to drive a few of brindabellas instructors trained there

[Fodwomple]

Are the people at Moruya still doing flying training. Their website seems pretty up to date but that's about all I know of them.

Not much good for CPL'ers, but might be ok for a part-timer "doing the PPL because I always wanted to" person like me.

[muffman]

Graham at the Moruya Aero Club is well worth the trip. Great instructor, with plenty of experience. Don't be fooled by the 'club' thing - he means business.

[hillbillybob]

he do CPL or does he stop at PPL?

[Capt Mo]

Relatively close to Canberra, check out Smartair www.smartair.com.au (http://www.smartair.com.au) in Albury.

[SW3]

For all GFPT, PPL or prosepective CPL/ATPL holders take a look at Recreational Aviation flying schools/clubs in the Canberra region. Cooma/Polo Flat is extremely active.

Recreational Aircraft offer fun flying at a fraction of the cost of GA. They are absolutely no different to your Cessna or Piper, apart from being more fun and better to fly with more performance.
RAAus intructors are dedicated and knowlegable people, there because they love flying and not just to build hours. Many have come from distinguished flying careers (One gentleman in particular) and will teach you to fly stick and rudder (In other words, properly).
Some of your hours count one for one for PPL up to a limit of 40 hours, CPL and 750 hours (From memory) towards an ATPL.
Put the fun back into flying, go for it!:ok:

[maverick22]

SW3,

The confusion surrounding RAAus hours counting towards a CPL has just been put to rest in another thread. They count towards a PPL, but not towards a CPL at all.

You can count up to 750 hours of group A ultralight time towards an ATPL.

[j3pipercub]

No SW3, RAA hours do not count. See this thread

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/408624-raa-3.html

I highlight post #42, in particular the quote below from Horation Leafblower

The CASA position is that RAAus hours CANNOT be counted towards a CPL, be it a "150 hour" CPL or a "200 hour" CPL. You must gain all of the required 200 hours on the classes of aircraft described at CAR 5.115(4) For example, if a person gained their PPL entirely on the basis of 40 hours RAAus time, then they will need to have minimum 240 hours of logged experience come time for their CPL flight test.

I'm not knocking RAA, as I am RAA licensed, but horses for courses.

j3

[Fodwomple]

The original reason I went GA rather than RA is simply because Canberra is controlled airspace and there is no RA within an hour of here. GA also allows me to move me, the wife and the kids .... or a couple of mates.I'm not sure I want to travel an hour to get to the plane I want to fly. I don't mind doing it to get the license, but afterwards I'm not sure. I've heard too many stories of people having a plane housed an hour away and never using it. Especially when, other than my desire to fly, I wanted to use this as a means to cut down on some of the long car journeys we do to visit family. With the obvious push to kill off GA at YSCB I'm having to re-think that goal though.There's also more effect than just the loss of the flying school. I know of a person here who used to hire Brindabella aircraft (and a pilot) as part of his aerial photography business. He is now scratching his head trying to work out where he hires from now. There's just about nothing left here!* Hmm, why is my post all squashed up when it's nicely space in the editor.

[NAMPS]

Graham at the Moruya Aero Club is well worth the trip. Great instructor, with plenty of experience. Don't be fooled by the 'club' thing - he means business.

I concur with this statement.

[SW3]

Oooh Maverick and J3Cub, we've hit a raw nerve haven't we???!

Well my answer on RAAus counting for CPL is it depends which CASA representitive you speak to as there is yet to be a definitive answer. So there, they don't even know for sure.

Looking at all the threads we can all see that. Full points yes you need to 100 hours in GA or a recognised aeroplane. As for the other 100, Reg CAR 5.115 states at least 100 hours as PIC, but does not state what sort of aircraft this has to be in... The Flight Crew Licencing Procedures Manual states 100 hours general (A) which means obviously aeroplane. And an aeroplane is, as per CAR 2 a power driven, heavier than air aircraft.

Either way this is an issue that needs to be put to bed, IN THE REGULATIONS.... Quite rightly so, why can gliders and gyros count but not ultralights?? I fly aircraft from one end of the spectrum to the other and, argue as much as you want, a 3 axis aeroplane is a 3 axis aeroplane, regardless of registration.

[robin160]

Hi Mate,

Hey hows it going ? I would like to get some info from you as it seems that u r from aussie. i have just finished my Flight Instructors rating from New Zealand and looking for jobs in Aussie? If you know as to where is the best bid to apply would be of gr8 help.
Cheers mate

[YMRYFlyer]

Just to answer a question someone asked, yes Flight training is still done at moruya in the 150 and 172 cessnas...

It can get fairly busy, and RAA is fairly big at moruya.... (most RAA students at moruya are taught by graham anyway)..

the website is in the process of being completely redone, its very close to being complete, and is good enough to visit as i type this.

and there is a fly in/drive in soon for everyone to come see why we love flying at ymry.. great opportunity to get info about the courses & training, (may 9 i believe is the planned date)..

Also, At moruya, You can do RAA, PPL, CPL, Night VFR, Instructor Ratings and a whole heap more..

You can also catch Graham at Bankstown usually mon-fri most times... but every weekend at moruya is almost a definent chance of him being there..

Hope this helps answer some questions about moruya (plus its not too far from canberra)

[hillbillybob]

Im thinking of heading down to moruya on the motorbike weather permitting on Sunday. will try and have a chat with Graham while I am down there

[maverick22]

SW3, as someone who also flies a broad spectrum of aircraft I am not disagreeing with you at all. However, in light of the rules i would now tend to agree with others in that RAAus hours don't count towards the CPL. Why they don't count is beyond me and unreasonable as they can be counted towards an ATPL. As you say, a 3 axis aeroplane is still the same regardless of whether it has letters or numbers on the side of it.

At the end of the day though it does not worry me, but until the regs become clearer I would advise others contemplating RAAus flying to build up hours for the CPL not to do it. However, for the recreational/PPL type flyer... then fill yer boots!

[Horatio Leafblower]

Didn't Brindabella hire a new CFI in the 2nd half of last year? Where's he going?

...what about all the other instructors they were supposedly putting on? :confused:

[Fodwomple]

Didn't Brindabella hire a new CFI in the 2nd half of last year? Where's he going?...

what about all the other instructors they were supposedly putting on?

Yes they did. I feel sorry for both Graham (the CFI) and the instructors that came with him over the last 6 months. They are a great bunch of people.

Some of them were still trying to find accomodation here! I guess they don't need to now :(

[Rich-Fine-Green]

This is a trend of things to come in GA.

Flight Training is slowly becoming unprofitable for even the best run aviation businesses.

Brindabella obviously have a good handle on their business and have come to the conclusion they have to close their flight school.

Unfortunately, GA in Capital Cities will become too expensive.

The choice for many operators will be to schedule a controlled close or move to a country airport where costs can be better managed.

[Fodwomple]

Unfortunately, GA in Capital Cities will become too expensive.

The choice for many operators will be to schedule a controlled close or move to a country airport where costs can be better managed.


I think so too. Soon, if you want to learn to fly you won't be living in one of the capitals. Then, if you want a job for the first how ever many years, you won't be living in a capital either!

[Horatio Leafblower]

...Malcolm P I thought? :confused:

[Extra260]

Yes the CFI is Malcolm P.

[Like This - Do That]

I think so too. Soon, if you want to learn to fly you won't be living in one of the capitals.

Looks like how it's heading ... the great unwashed didn't give a sh1t when the GA airports were sold to developers, and GA eviscerated in the process. They'll start paying attention when Sydney has 6M people in it and every new dwelling is a 5 or 6 story cookie cutter apartment block. But it'll be too late by then.

The political parties are far more interested in donations from developers than they are in the preservation and promotion of GA - an industry that make lots of sense in such a large and sparsely-populated continent.

So now back to the notion of living closer to where one learns to fly. How the heck is Student Pilot Bloggs supposed to find the cash to live, pay for flying, rent, insure the car, eat, etc in a country town that has few jobs for the young folks who already live there? Can't all work at the pub or the servo.

Idiocy, it's all idiocy. This country has huge distances and atrocious roads and governments at every level do their best to cripple GA.

[Fodwomple]

Hmm .. with my inlaws living in Nelligen, I might just have to check Moruya out!

[greentea84]

10 years ago there were 3 or 4 flight training schools at Canberra, now there are none. It sucks this has had to happen. Hopefully there can be some expansion of schools at PoloFlat and Goulburn because now there is nowhere nearby to do a CPL.

[Danger Mouse]

The government policies are ruining GA. The country will pay in a few years when there is no one to fly their main jet routes.

Privatisation of airports - costs quadrupled at Canberra the first year of privatisation and continued to increase since. Other capitals are similar

Add costs of Security

I know Deniliquin council took over the DLQ aiport and have shortened the runway rather than spend on maintenence - it no longer supports larger turboprops.... its probably just a sample of other rural airports.

Airservices - user pays - this cost is MASSIVE and was introduced about 10 years ago

Government does not recognise regional airlines are Australias infastructure. No support - no subsidies to service remote destinations (except QLD)

Fee Help - akin to the government guarenteeing the banks and smaller finance companies are stranded..... CPL students flock to university affiliated flight schools and leave the other schools bare.

Airlines continue to take take take and do not give back in training ( one major airline in particular trains no one...)

[MARZ]

Now that Brindabella flight training is gone... I'm looking at alternatives to finish off my CPL. :ugh:

Is it worth checking out Goulburn or Polo Flat?

[Flyingblind]

I fly at Goulburn when I get the chance, which is not a lot lately due finances. The areodrome is ok and the club is pretty good value.

As I said at the start of the thread, the aerodrome has recently been brought off the Goulburn Council by an interest that has big commercial ideas for the site.

What that means long term for the aerodrome from a GA perspective has yet to be communicated.

Polo flat seems OK, although the infrastructure could do with a bit of money thrown at it. I only visited for a chat so could not comment further.

Either way your in for a drive! which is not too bad as you get to brief/debrief yourself for your flight and ponder all things aeronautical.

[bizzybody]

Graham at the Moruya Aero Club is well worth the trip. Great instructor, with plenty of experience. Don't be fooled by the 'club' thing - he means business.


plus 2 on that i know his daughter....

[BrisbaneR33]

Is there anywhere in Canberra now that does private hire for a C172 or PA28?

[Extra260]

Canberra Aero Club

Canberra Aero Club - Main Page (http://canberra-aeroclub.com.au/cac/)

[MARZ]

Canberra Aero Club

Canberra Aero Club - Main Page

Maybe they might want to think about offer flight training.... They would be the only ones in ACT to do so, and I envisage that they would have strong student demand?

[Krazy]

Maybe they might want to think about offer flight training....

The Aero Club used to, and they had an AOC up until 1996/'97. As everyone knows, getting an AOC isn't easy/cheap. And a not-for-profit organisation has to be careful spending the money it has (or doesn't have) as depending on the org structure, it belongs to the members.

Either way, there might actually be some movement with the Aero Club. If not offering training, then doing something to at least facilitate flight training at YSCB through another operator.

Stay tuned.

[Lasiorhinus]

Maybe they might want to think about offer flight training.... They would be the only ones in ACT to do so, and I envisage that they would have strong student demand?

At the moment, Brindabella is the only flying school in Canberra - and if they don't have enough demand from students, given that they already have all the infrastructure in place including the AOC, then there is no way there will be enough demand for the Aero Club to start up a flying school.

Give it a few years, then perhaps. I'd hate for there to be no pilot training in Canberra ever again. I did my PPL through Brindabella while living in Canberra, and that was back when there was a choice of operators.

[Krazy]

Brindabella is the only flying school in Canberra - and if they don't have enough demand from students

I think you will find that the reason they are shutting down has got nothing to do with demand. Ask them - there is plenty of demand for flight training in CB.

given that they already have all the infrastructure in place including the AOC

Brindy is also an RPT/charter operator. They still use all that infrastructure for that part of the business.

[BrisbaneR33]

I would think this should give rise to a sizable GA training operation at YGLB. It is ideally located near all classes of airspace whilst being in class G for ab-initio, no landing fees, no circuit limitations etc. It's also located close enough to draw students from CBR and SYD if the offering is right. With the moves to ramp up the GA movements at YGLB I think there is quite the business opportunity there.

[Gear-down]

It's been >10 years since I was flying regularly - (got a CPL(H) about 18 years ago)...

I just started studying my CPL(A) part-time through Brindabella. It is really great to have them to ask all the questions, especially since there have been so many changes since I last flew.

Also once completed, I was going to do MECIR. Due to my job I can only get weekends off and only a week (rarely) for holidays, so doing full time training elsewhere is not possible.

Anyone know who nearby can do MECIR??

As for Canberra Aero Club, they could go through the AOC route with their own instructor etc, but as soon as it became "profitable or busy", Mr S would demand his pound of flesh, and the CAC would have to look for a new home! :sad:

So... anyone with some instructing experience in Canberra wanting to earn a few $cash to get me through my studies, PM me.

[golow]

The trouble with Goulburn is its $18 to land a Cessna 172 against Wollongongs $9.

[Matt1]

Capt Mo are you employed at Smart Air or have you just trained there.. I have actually handed in my resume to them not that long ago and really hope i get the job, move the wife and kids up north .. sounds like a great company to work for..