Brize Norton-the wrong airfield?

[Ken Scott]

With all the fuss over closing Lyneham and locating all AT assets at Brize Norton, which is frankly too small to take everything, I just realized that it's the wrong location. Much better by far would be too move everything to Fairford.

It's surplus to requirements for the USAF, recently refurbished, lots of space for new hangars etc. There aren't many FQs but the ones at Brize need replacing anyway & the huge number required for ex-Lyneham personnel could just as easily be built at Fairford. Ditto the new terminal, C130 hangar, 47AD hangar, A330 hangar. The base isn't too far from the A419 for access, fewer neighbours to complain about aircraft noise, and the Brize site could be sold to Richard Branson or as development land.

It's so simple it's obvious!

[VinRouge]

Oh, and the infrastructure is tip top thanks to the Yanks too.


Any runway that is used as a relief landing ground for a shuttle RTO has to be in tip top condition I would reckon!

[Green Flash]

Vin

Very true, but any runway is a good runway when you are in a 50 ton glider!:eek:

[Sgt.Slabber]

Is there an issue with power supplies? Is Fairford on (mostly) 110v 60Hz?

[Green Flash]

I've worked there for the past few years and in the buildings we occupy it is most certainly 230V and 50Hz.

And if it means that the AMC is co-located and South Cerney closed then it gets my vote!

Hang on! Is there a Cunning Plan for EGDL post RAF? What about moving the AMC there? Or am I using a part of my anatomy not designed for thinking or talking?

[MATELO]

Too obvious & makes perfect sense.

A definate no-goer:=

:ugh::ugh:

[Quazzi]

get it in - could be the best GEMS in history

[SRENNAPS]

Well dont move to Fairford before the next RIAT, because I have finally manged to get into Totterdown Hill Campsite for this year, after many years of trying:ok::D

[MATELO]

I suspect your booking for 2020, even if the go ahead was given at 1pm today, would be safe SRENNAPS.:)

[Green Flash]

Hows about moving the AMC to EGVA anyway? You can get all the pax booted and spurred, lob a cab over from Brize, scoop 'em up and away to climes foriegn? Yet still alot closer if you have to bus them. AND it keeps a very handy length of tarmac in MOD ownership. Flog Cerney to pay for it all?

Shut up GF?

[StopStart]

Brize is the wrong airfield but we're stuck with it and no amount of bitching and moaning will stop either Lyneham closing or us moving to Brize. It's one of those hilariously bad military ideas that should've been killed at birth once the only fan (was it the CAS of about 10 years ago?) buggered off on his pension. Sadly no-one had the plums to state the bleedin' obvious and we're stuck with it.

It's a bit like BOCS - desperately unsuitable and tragically unstoppable :bored:

On the plus side, I expect the locals of Fairford will be getting used to the jolly old C130s ago again though. Having rung Brize the other evening to book 2 Hercs in for a spot of late night NVG TALO we were advised that they don't do night flying in the Brize circuit as it bothers the locals. It was suggested that we do what Brize aircraft do and go to Lyneham.... Apparently our leaders are now looking for another airfield where we can do all our NVG TALT/MOS/TALO....

Promotions all round! :rolleyes:

[Impiger]

I thought all that night tactical stuff was supposed to be done at Keevil and that was why it was to be kept!

Shame the USAF decision on Fairford came after the RAF one on Brize v Lyneham. Had Fairford been on offer it might have altered the price of fish. But no matter how fond people are of Lyneham consolidating properly on one base is the correct long term solution and in a cost and operational benefit analysis Brize trumped Lyneham at just about every aspect. The trick is to do the colocation properly! As me old meerkat mate might say: simples!

[Pontius Navigator]

I said it 15 years ago and I'll say it again; we are running out of runways.

The number of runways required is in proportion to the number of aircraft airborne and their diversion range. It is not proportional to the number of aircraft in the inventory.

Come 1700 there are precious few military runways during the week and at weekends only a couple. As someone once said; the first F3 that diverts to Manchester on a fuel priority will be the last.

[StopStart]

I thought all that night tactical stuff was supposed to be done at Keevil and that was why it was to be kept!

Indeed and that is where we do a big chunk of it. It is however nice/sensible to have the option of being able to do it at one's home base if Keevil/TacATC/Fire are unavailable. I believe the locals of Keevilshire are as unappreciative of endless night flying as are the cosseted locals of Brize. I suspect if we stick all night trg into Keevil the natives may get restless. :hmm:

It is worth noting that night "tactical" stuff makes up the vast majority of what we do in trg and ops. Mildly hilarious that we will be unable to conduct trg for it at our future home base....

I have no particular affection for Lyneham and frankly would be hard pushed to give less of toss where we are based. What I do object to however is a half-arsed plan to shoehorn us into an already crowded airfield and the assumption by the "planners" that the massive holes in said plan will be papered over by us lot "making do".
Who knows - perhaps it will be seamlessly awesome and we'll all wonder why we didn't do sooner..... http://farm1.static.flickr.com/79/buddyicons/[email protected]

[BEagle]

Having rung Brize the other evening to book 2 Hercs in for a spot of late night NVG TALO we were advised that they don't do night flying in the Brize circuit as it bothers the locals.

The perception is that it pisses off the folk who are daft enough to live in Soweto (or Carterton, as some term it). Thanks to some ar$e of a previous Stn Cdr (Kelvin Rucksack), we even used to have problems booking night flying in the flying club's puddlejumpers which make less noise than the locals' chavved-up Corsas...

Or Calibras. Sorry, Stoppers!

[Fg Off Kite]

Nicely put Kreuger.

I asked the question many years ago as to the result of an incident taking out the only UK AT runway and was told that it was considered "acceptable risk"

[whowhenwhy]

Ahhh, there you go, that lovely acronym ALARP is creeping in there. That's done well elsewhere in aviation hasn't it?:ugh:

[Farfrompuken]

But no matter how fond people are of Lyneham consolidating properly on one base is the correct long term solution and in a cost and operational benefit analysis Brize trumped Lyneham at just about every aspect.

but closing Lyneham and moving it to BZN is deficient in cost and operational benefit.

£7M per year infrastructure costs vs. £250M to move and lose the benefits of an operational 'can do' unit. Manpower savings (bar the loss of Civilian jobs) have already been realised.

Simples!:ok:

[Ken Scott]

The only thing that Bzn has got going for it is the longer runway, although it only faces in one direction. Other than that, the station doesn't have anything. No space, hostile locals, runway prone to flooding, poor comminications, end of the national grid, no accommodation (& what FQs there are are poor), no parking, the list goes on.

Bzn will struggle to accomodate the tactical C130s, as we're already seeing when guys try and book training. What's going to happen when Ex Noise Complaint takes place (the Lyn trg prog taking place at Bzn) will be a wonder to behold, unless there's only one ac made available. Having attempted to do Tac trg at Bzn it was a total waste of time. On many levels, tac trg, SERE trg etc, it'snot going to work. But, like BOCS, it is to be made to happen no matter what common sense says should prevail.

[VinRouge]

Going to love to see the local reaction to op neccessity engine runs at 2 A.M. as well.... :hmm:

[grandfer]

The ideal solution is to buy back St.Mawgan or NQY as it's now known , hardly any problems with cluttered airspace ,locals,long runway, plenty of accomodation ,acres of hardstandings, reasonable weather & plenty of Cornish pasties-No problem !

Cheers :ok::ok:

[dead_pan]

What about Boscombe Down for the Hercs? Two runways, plus its almost in sight of Everleigh and Fox Covert.

[Ken Scott]

Ok, I admit a small error, every runway faces in 2 directions, what I meant to say was that you only get one option on direction & of course its reciprocal, at Lyneham you have 4 options total which does prove rather useful at times.

[Arty Fufkin]

Don't know how Heathrow manages with no cross runway. Civilian amatures!!!

[Pontius Navigator]

Ok, I admit a small error, every runway faces in 2 directions, what I meant to say was that you only get one option on direction & of course its reciprocal, at Lyneham you have 4 options total which does prove rather useful at times.

Have a look at Ascension. OK, it is marked 31 but that is the only mark. Not a single wheel track visible but look at 13. Really they could have saved a shed load of paint.

[StopStart]

No cross runway but Heathrow still have 4 options..... :hmm:

PN - good point, I guess they could've not bothered building the other end of the runway. Erm.

[vecvechookattack]

The ideal solution is to buy back St.Mawgan or NQY as it's now known , hardly any problems with cluttered airspace ,locals,long runway, plenty of accomodation ,acres of hardstandings, reasonable weather & plenty of Cornish pasties-No problem !



Sadly a little too late. AW saw the potential and moved in.

[grandfer]

On the "Local" news on ITV tonight it stated that Penhale Camp is closing & it's training facilities will be moved to "RAF St.Mawgan".

:confused::ugh:

[Blighter Pilot]

And the locals around Lyneham should be pleased when a massive Army Logs Bde moves in from Germany in 2013!

[Ken Scott]

'Don't know how Heathrow manages with no cross runway. Civilian amatures!!!'

They used Rwy 05/23 up until 2005, guess the 'amatures' couldn't cope with LAHSO, perhaps they need to see how the USA does it.

[farefield]

"Any runway that is used as a relief landing ground for a shuttle RTO has to be in tip top condition I would reckon!"

Have you ever landed at Dakar? It's rough as heck

[ghostnav]

....reasonable weather & plenty of Cornish pasties-No problem !

I don't think you have been to Newquay have you...it is crap! Pasties are only good in Helston!

[vecvechookattack]

It makes sense to move the facilities from Penhale to RAF St Mawgan... Maybe save some money as well

[grandfer]

Time for some enterprising Kernowite to introduce a high speed pasty link from Helston to NQY then .:ok::ok:

[Arty Fufkin]

My previous post was intended to be a little tongue in cheek, but my point remains:

There has never been a problem with having only one runway at Brize, and I fail to see how the arrival of the Wiltshire Furniture Van will change that simple fact. The point is that one of the two airfields had to close, and Lyneham's runways (all 4 of them!!) are too small.

Fairford or NEWQUAY?? :ooh: I'll have a pint of what you're having!!

[rusty_monkey]

Just to add my two pennies worth,
why not relocate lyneham and brize A/C to Cyprus set up a civvy contract for flying them in and then ship the frieght to limassol and truck it to akrotiri.
No more brize you just check in at heathrow get all your op kit from aki stores and as the SBA'a means we can do what we want day or night the herc chaps can do all there tactical stuff to there hearts content.

We have the infrastructure and loads of rooms. I might put in a gems today and explain to the treasury that if we stopped LOA we could almost make money!

[A and C]

I will back you up about Dakar the only other shuttle runway in Africa is Banjul and that is worse than Dakar!

But back to the topic, I have found the attitude of ATC at RAF stations is "variable", it would be very sad to shut a station with an ATC unit that had such a "can do" attitude.

[BEagle]

All this talk of the ever-shrinking RAF does make me wonder what it was like 60 or so years ago. I was moving some boxes today and found a Sep 1948 edition of The Aeroplane. Full of information about the British aviation industry as well...

But the item which caught my eyes was this:

The R.A.F.* "At Home"
FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND people, the exact official figures are 557,650, were guests of the Royal Air Force at the 82 stations which were "At Home" to the public on September 18.

OK, probably not all flying stations, but 82 - makes you think.......


*Yes, I know that 'RAF' isn't written like that these days - but that's how it was written then!

[Willard Whyte]

...why not relocate lyneham and brize A/C to Cyprus...Cyprus could be a nice place,

when it's finished.