Mutiny on the QF12 ????

[ditch handle]

Rumours around QCC1 very recently suggest that a series of unprecedented events occurred on the above mentioned flight ex LAX pertaining to cabin crew flight duty limitations.

As outlandish as the rumours suggest it seems that due to an aircraft delay some of the anointed ones [A380 cabin crew] have chosen to actively and repeatedly place concerns relating to their flight duty limitations above and beyond the safe/effective operation of the aircraft.

Those in the industry and knowing of such things might be interested in the following terms as they relate to these, "rumoured events".

1. Sterile flight deck.
2. Gross insubordination.
3. Challenge to the Captain's authority.
4. Mutiny.
5. Diversion.
4. Brisbane.
5. Chief Pilot.
6. Safety meeting.
7. Cabin crew management and the direct results of their ideologically driven stupidity :ok:.


Please discuss...........

[SRM]

What COA governs CC duty limitations?I did not think there were any, but I may be wrong.

[ditch handle]

20 hours was the contention.

Whether it comes under COA I'm not sure however it is seen as the limit for cabin crew at QF.

[blueloo]

Come on ditch - throw us a bone.......more info required.

How bout dates....


How can this affect the sterile cockpit? Demanding to talk to captain on climb or descent?

Forcing him to divert?

[ditch handle]

A few days ago I think.

A call to the flight deck when on the active runway.

Continued harassment from individuals en-route necessitating a call to the Chief Pilot.

A cultural vacuum masquerading as a working environment created specifically by QF cabin crew management that is bereft of respect, maturity, industry knowledge and Qantas/airline culture who's individuals have been brain washed into believing that they walk on water.

New inductees onto the, "ship of fools" are told with religious zealotry on day one of their conversion training from shorthaul that, "this is the best day of your lives".

Those responsible for creating the culture and environment where this sort of lunacy occurs ought to hang there heads in shame. Of course they will never be held to account. No one in cabin crew management ever is.

All the garbage is just swept under the carpet so CC management can continue to wander around repeating to each other the mantra, "It's all, so, EXCEPTIONAL".

The culture of this airline really is going to sh!t. :ugh:

[tail wheel]

mutiny: Open rebellion against constituted authority, especially rebellion of sailors against superior officers.

Would someone care to inform the rest of us what this thread is all about? :confused:

Is it a bit more Qantas internal politics being masqueraded as front page news? :mad:

[mrdeux]

Discuss, but with no facts, only innuendo...?

[ditch handle]

Is it a bit more Qantas internal politics being masqueraded as front page news?

No. More like front page news as a result of Qantas internal politics.:mad:

[Capt Kremin]

It was a sad day when I was informed on my command course that they had removed the right of the Captain to have people flogged! I mean what other point was there to being a Captain?

You couldn't even flog people who wanted to be!

Very sad and a retrograde step!

"This is mutiny Mr Christian...MUTINY!" Ahhh Trevor Howard... the model Captain.

[burnable gomi]

It's hard to figure out what happened based on your lack of information but tell me if I've got this right:

-flight was delayed
-cabin crew were going to exceed their duty day limitations
-cabin crew didn't want to do this and told captain
-captain overruled them and continued flight?

Is that correct?

If so I'd say the captain should be taken out back and shot. There are limits for a reason. It would be hard for the cabin crew to properly perform their duties if they were asleep. Perhaps a lack of respect for the cabin crew and their responsibilities? I would hope that the captain would be professional enough not to continue a flight if he/she were fatigued.

[Capt Kremin]

If the cabin crew were going to exceed their duty limits then the Tech crew would have as well; so I doubt that was the case. It's probably more something to do with contractual limits and the right to extend. Someone in CC would have to give some details here...17 hours springs to mine with a vote to extend. But that may be mainline crew instead of the A380 crews.

[quim]

May I politely suggest that a call to the flight deck WHILST ON THE ACTIVE RUNWAY directly contravenes Qantas FAM rules. This is called the "No Contact" period. Flight Attendants ARE aware that they arent to call the flight deck under ANY circumstances, let alone for an issue like this, that should have been sorted at the gate.

Suggesting the Captain should be shot is extremely poor form. Gomi? As you state, there are rules for a reason. But which are more important? Exceeding duty limitations, or in an extreme case, having 400 people die because the flight crew were distracted on an active runway dealing with whining cabin crew who decided that their query during a NO CONTACT period was more important!!

Now I have no idea what went on here, but from what has been stated thus far, the cabin crew member who called the flight deck at this time SHOULD at the very least be stood down pending an investigation.

[burnable gomi]

Agreed that if the call was made while lining up for takeoff then that was completely inappropriate and the cc member in question should receive some recurrent training. That aside, a duty time limitation, whether legal or contractual, needs to be respected. The decision of the cc not to exceed it needs to be respected too.

[RedTBar]

Would someone care to inform the rest of us what this thread is all about?
Discuss, but with no facts, only innuendo...?
Funny,I thought this was a rumour network?
rumor |ˈroōmər| ( Brit. rumour)
noun
a currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth : they were investigating rumors of a massacre | rumor has it that he will take a year off.
quim,it is only a rumour but I agree with you that it is a big no no that the pilots are distracted at that point.You are right though that you don't know what happened here as do any of us yet so calling for anyone to be stood down is a bit premature!

[tail wheel]

Thirteen posts and still no facts? :mad:

Hardly news, maybe rumour? :confused:

For a rumour to survive in here it must have some substantiating facts or credibility. I don't see either here....... :=

[Capt Fathom]

What a fantastic working environment!

The media will have a ball with this one! They, after all don't need any facts either!

[RedTBar]

The decision of the cc not to exceed it needs to be respected too.
I remember a situation a few years ago when the door was closed and the aircraft was pushed back only to remain at a hard stand for a considerable time.The CC had no chance or ability to contact anyone and could obviously not leave the aircraft to exercise their right not to extend.
Luckily,this sort of thing happens very rarely.Hour limitations are there for a purpose

Until the facts surface none of us know what happened or if anything happened.
To be fair Tail Wheel,if there are substantiating facts it is no longer a rumour.
As for credibility,how do you judge a rumour?
Captain fathom is right as the media seem to do very well with stories having no facts and even less credibility but they run for a long time

[frigatebird]

Communist Cabin Crew Commune Committee Command C-wantas Crew. (Captain Criticized) !!!

[Capt Kremin]

Thirteen posts and still no facts?

Here is a fact for you. Tailwheel is a FANTASTIC moderator!!! (That should keep this going for a while....:p)

[Offchocks]

burnable gomi

Cabin crew duty limitations for a single sector can be planned up to 18 hours, in unplanned circumstances such as delays or diversions, this can be extended to a maximum of 20 hours.
It is part of the contract and there is no vote. There are also no facts that this took place.

[GalleyHag]

ditch handle

You are full of crap, true it is different culture I believe BUT certainly not what you are referring to in your posts. I have heard nothing about this event therefore in the eyes of the A380 crew it is clearly a non event and only interests the crew living in the fantasy land of the 747.

When you are prepared to be more specific come back to us with your rumoured information and maybe someone may be able to comment. So far it just sounds like someone has their big nose out of joint over the A380 crew. You werent on board but im sure you have a friend of a friend who is related to the cousin of someone working on the BOS desk.

As for the CC Managers they are extremely supportive and pro-active in dealing with A380 crew thats their job.

The experience level of crew has risen greatly over the past 6 months and think this is clearly evident on board the aircraft. The A380 at times suffers significant delays from time to time and crew are more than happy to assist the company where ever possible.

[Going Boeing]

When you are prepared to be more specific come back to us with your rumoured information and maybe someone may be able to comment.

Personally, I hope Ditch doesn't come back with more information. An open forum like this which has media regularly trolling for nasty tid-bits to further their assassination of Oz airlines is not the place to discuss this and the thread should have never been started.

[The Green Goblin]

The bigger the aircraft, the bigger the bitch!

[powersfasher]

Why is the A380 called the Sarah Jessica Parker ????

Because it is ugly and is high maintenance.

Hey don't shoot me, only the messenger.

[OneDotLow]

Moderators.... Is this thread really going anywhere?

If I had the power I'd hit click for you :}

[Ngineer]

rumor definition
ru·mor (ro̵̅o̅′mər)
noun

general talk not based on definite knowledge; mere gossip; hearsay.
an unconfirmed report, story, or statement in general circulation.PS, Thanks for the good laff powersfasher!

[skybed]

the official limit as per industrial agreement but there is also an out clause. in plain english that means "if the individual crew member feels ok then they can go on". and sanctioned by the union. would the resident union chaps confirm this here. A few month ago in brisbane i believe it went along those lines....:yuk:

[hoboe]

It was Saturday Morning the 13th March Brisbane time.

At about 0400 local (no daylight savings in the dumb state), I was working (ATC) and my supervisor came over and advised that QF12 was about 4hrs late getting away due to tug and other problems at LAX, and that presently they were going to arrive in YSSY with less than 1hr duty time left.

He asked if they could have as much direct tracking as possible to avoid a BNE diversion (now that would have been news hey, just like UAL839 a few weeks ago!), and that other QF aircraft would get out of the way to facilitate this...

I finished at 0600 local and passed the info onto my relief...

[Transition Layer]

Now that there are a few more facts flowing, this is from the Qantas Flight Info site:

Los Angeles to Sydney on Saturday 13 March 2010
Flight No. QF12
From To
Los Angeles Sydney
Scheduled Departure Actual Departure
22:30 (Thu) 22:35 (Thu)
Scheduled Arrival Actual Arrival Status
08:25 11:48 Landed

So 3hrs 23mins late fits in with a 19hr + tour of duty. The close to on-time departure from LAX would have been triggered with the initial release of the parking brake before the trouble with the tug began!

[RedTBar]

Well,it looks like the rumour has just been substantiated and is credible.
The A380 at times suffers significant delays from time to time and crew are more than happy to assist the company where ever possible.
It also looks like this is not always the case.

The problem in a case like this is like the old cliche
'How long is a piece of string'.In other words how long is the delay because people are making educated guesses as to how long the delay will be and an guesstimate on an arrival time.In this case if correct 15 minutes was all that was left so it was fairly close call and could have gone either way.What if it had turned out to be 21 hours or 19.The problem is that CC are not always given informed and impartial information to make a decision and if the OBM's are not good at communicating or have their own agenda the rest of the crew can feel isolated.

You have a long tour of duty and there is a significant delay.The airline obviously wants to get the aircraft away and the tech crew do not always think of it from a CC point of view.

That does not excuse anyone from calling the flight deck during the no contact period or for questioning the Capt.You might not agree with his/her decision but they are in command.You should be able to say that you are not happy with the decision and that you will take it up later in the office but not when you are about to take off or the Capt/tech crew are obviously busy.

However,there should be a mechanism so that in cases like this if you think you have been given a snow job by the airline or the Capt or anyone once you get home you have an avenue to address the situation.

[Capt Kremin]

What snow job? If the QCCA contract specifies extending to 20 hours with no question, why was there a problem going to 19:45?

Cabin crew should be aware that Tech Crew will not go past 20 hours on a four pilot crew as it is against the CAO's and hence is against the law, and a consequence the aircraft ceases to be insured in the event of an accident. I am guessing that is why a diversion to BNE was being considered. 20 hours is it.

Maybe that should be more widely disseminated.

[Back Seat Driver]

Charlie Fly Away- You had me until
2 more tugs pulled the aircraft back by the wings - yep, true.

Because I've looked and looked and I'm buggered if I can see a tug attachment point on the wings. :D

edit
post 35 Pegasus747 charlie fly away is 100% correct based on the info i have recieved (sic)
At best 92.30769% correct, because no A380 has ever been towed anywhere by its wings. AND THAT'S A FACT JACK

[maccaj73]

Ahhh the CC would have been so disappointed they ended up getting away, oh would they have loved to walk and handball all the furious pax to the ground staff and quickly disappeared out the back exit for another over night.

Unfortunately so many of the crew really hope for a cancellation because it means another night in LA or wherever they maybe with no care of how it will impact the operation or the ground staff who have to pick up the pieces....

I know its not all crew there are many dedicated ones but unfortunately its all to common.

[Pegasus747]

charlie fly away is 100% correct based on the info i have recieved

[hotnhigh]

I'm sure they just hooked up a couple of snatch straps to the handles in the top of the body gear wheel wells and pulled it out.:ugh:
And I'm with the captain on this one,floggings, and public floggings at that!:D

[mrdeux]

This just shouldn't have been an issue. Pilots cannot go past 20 hours. Departure was obviously looking tight, but still worth a look. And that's with Sydney as the destination. You can always go to Brisbane and save 45 minutes or so, or perhaps go to Fiji and save a couple of hours, but still have the jet within reasonably easy recovery range.

I suspect the Captain would have been stunned by the lack of thought from the back end, and can only hope that if the story as told here is true that a couple of CC are looking for other employment.

[skybed]

on the A180:ok:

[Feather #3]

Just a point on RedTBar's "could have gone either way."

Once 20 hours Tour of Duty [TOD] is passed, it's the feeling of most pundits that neither the company [in this case QF] nor the PIC have a leg to stand on should there be a problem resulting in litigation.

Having dealt with this for over 40 years, they'd have been in BNE or elsewhere before breaking the 20hr limit and continuing to SYD.

Finally, yes, you can be that accurate once underway!!

G'day ;)

[RedTBar]

Feather #3,I know exactly what you mean however the crux of the matter is when you said once underway!!.Thats the kicker.

The problem is when you finally get away.

[Capt Kremin]

The problem is when you finally get away.


No it's not a problem. People should understand that once an aircraft departs, particularly a LH flight, things can change along the way. Arrival at destination is not guaranteed.

I get the feeling here that this CC began to get into their minds early in the piece that they were not going anywhere, were well into planning a night in LA and got a shock when the eventually aircraft departed.

Where to? Well SYD was the plan but like all good operations there were other options if getting to SYD inside of 20 hours wasn't going to happen.

Brisbane, Fiji, Auckland.... Cairns even. Anywhere reasonably close to destination where a standby crew could be expeditiously sent to get the aircraft to Sydney.

If the posts are true about the CC arguing that the aircraft had every right to depart even if they were not going to eventually end up in SYD, then it highlights the fact that they either haven't read the contract they operate under and/or have little idea of how a modern airline works.

[lk978]

sorry but I can understand how th capt feels... 19:45 hours or 20:15 hours is there a difference except for what your union agreed to?

Seriously get over it do your job and harden up princess' flight crew are on the same plane :ugh:

Some people go looking for a fight

[insertnamehere]

Ok, I'll bite.

How exactly was this particular A380 towed by the wings?

[Taildragger67]

There is someone holed up in a dark corner of an anonymous, low-rise office building just off O'Riordan Street, Mascot at the moment, looking through this thread, thinking to themselves "I've divided and conquered. My work here is done".