Safety - When should PAX alert crew

[toolman1]

I was recently traveling from LTN to MXP on easyjet A319. i fly this route regular and i am quite familiar with this aircraft,
On taxiway i became aware of an unusual noise after the 'squeaking' sound of the hydraulics. Other passengers looked concerned. The sound continued for several mins, i decided to alert the crew, other passenger said it was not necessary as the crew would hear it also. i did alert the crew who didn't initially respond to my "Call Button' even though at this stage we hadn't arrived at the runway. Then a member of the crew did come and ask if i was concerned about the noise, and not to worry as it's normal but "we cannot hear it at the front". If they cannot hear it and it had stopped then how do they know what it was?
Was i correct to alert the crew as it's not helpful to make this observation at 35,000 Ft when in the unlikely event a hydraulic problem has occured.
I would like to hear a professional opinion about passenger comments and observation.

[Bushfiva]

If they cannot hear it and it had stopped then how do they know what it was?

Because they're probably asked about the noise on every flight.

[er340790]

I've only ever asked the cabin crew to pass a message to the flight deck once.

As a PPL for 26 years, I was on an AC regional jet at CYQT last February. We had been de-iced, but kept waiting on the deck due to a backlog of a/c waiting to depart.

During the next 25 mins, heavy snowfall had continued and led to a visible snow build-up on the wings and control surfaces. When the Capt announced we were pushing back, I asked the cabin crew to let the flight deck crew know of the snow build-up situation and that the message was from a PPL.

To their credit there was an immediate announcement that we were going to be de-iced again. :D :D :D It 'cost' us 10 mins.

Was I being overly concerned? Maybe, but I would not personally have departed in that condition. My view was that it's my neck on the chopping block too.

Better 10 mins too late in this life than 10 mins too early in the next.

[AirborneSoon]

You should always alert crew if anything at all concerns you on an aircraft. The issue might already be known to crew, be unknown to crew or it may in fact be a completely normal part of operations that is unusual to the passenger. In any case, if in doubt, tell someone. As to the initial situation that started this thread.

1. Crew may not respond to a call button during taxi because they are required to be in their seat and secured at this time. In extenuating circumstances (and safety permitting) they may be released from their seat by whoever is in charge to ensure there is no emergency situation onboard.

2. The noise may be a known issue to the crew. They may have been operating on that aircraft for several flights and have already been alerted to the noise. The aircraft might also have been checked and cleared for operations since the issue became known.

[Final 3 Greens]

As a frequent traveller for over 30 years and a PPL, I've only ever once reported something.

On a Viscount (this was a few years ago) I noticed a stream of liquid running out of the engine nacelle.

The FO came back with a very large manual and assessed the situation.

His best guess was that it was excess oil running out of the engine and there was no indication on the panel, so no problem.

When leaving the aircraft at Heathrow, I noticed that an engineer had already opened an inspection panel.

Unless I saw something that suggested a clear and present danger (like the icing that er340790 noticed) I would tend to accept that my knowledge of aircraft is troublesome, that is I know more than the average punter but don't know too much about line flying or larger aircraft.

So I tend to trust the crew to know what they are doing.

The clearest example of this was the first time I encountered a flapless take off on a F100:eek:

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Suspect there would have to be a piece missing before i said anything. Flying so incredibly safe not worth the risk of ridicule otherwise. Having said that, 'What the passenger saw' might have made a difference at Kegworth.

[Anansis]

If they cannot hear it and it had stopped then how do they know what it was? Because they're probably asked about the noise on every flight.

I think those of us who fly frequently are pretty familiar with the usual bumps and grinds of an aircraft and are able to notice something genuinely unusual. This is especially true of PPruNers since we all have a higher than average interest in aviation! If pax have genuine concerns they should not be made to feel stupid for raising them with the cabin crew. After all, its their job to ensure that we are comfortable and safe.

Once while flying at cruising altitude (cant remember who with or where to) lots of dry ice 'smoke' started pouring out from the air conditioning ducts. Cue lots of concerned looking faces and rambling chit chat. Quick as a flash came a p.a. announcement explaining what the 'smoke' was and assuring everyone that there was nothing to worry about. A small gesture but it made a big difference to a lot of people. Even if the 'smoke' was a regular occourance on many flights, a quick explaination would be no more intrusive and repetitive to crew and frequent flyers than the saftey demonstration.

The strangest thing of all about this is that as passengers we are told to be extra vigilant at airports these days. Watch out for unattended bags, look out for suspicious people etc etc... Why shouldn't that vigilance stretch to aircraft saftey?

[jetset lady]

Please, always tell the crew if you see something you're unsure of. Any crew member that ridicules you for that shouldn't be on an aircraft in the first place. After all, we do it all the time if we hear or see something unusual. Sometimes we'll know what it is and be able to reassure you, although I still always pass it on to the flight crew anyway, just in case. Other times we won't and that could be the time you save our lives. That may sound a bit dramatic but it could be that serious.

An incident that happened to me about 5 or 6 years ago. On a very cold, snowy winters morning, we were sat on stand waiting for the de-icing guys to do their stuff. It was the first rotation, so the aircraft had been there all night. After some time, the Capt made the usual PA saying that de-icing was now complete and that we would be pushing back shortly. One of the passengers called me over and with some embarrassment, mentioned that he'd not seen the right hand side being done. He was right. Somehow, the guys had completely missed one side of the aircraft. Thank God for that passenger.

Jsl

[Shack37]

JSL

Thank you for a simple and clear response to the OP. I think it will make your pax feel less hesitant of bringing an unfamiliar event (for them) to the attention of you and your colleagues.

[gdiphil]

On two separate occasions I've alerted the cabin crew to the fact that someone had been smoking in the toilets. And on both occasions the crew were immediately on the case trying to track down the culprits, as well as cleaning the waste out of the bins and checking no smouldering was going on. They also woke up the cabin with lights on and gave a stern reminder on the dangers of smoking in the loos. On one of the flights the culprit was found and reported to the authorities, he was arrested on arrival. As I recall this happened not long after the introduction of no smoking on all flights.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

I think the phrase was "Flight Safety Is EVERYONE's Business".

I'm sorry for the CC having to deal with 'uninformed' pax, but if you have genuine concerns then SAY SOMETHING. The other [few] hundred people on board will [possibly] buy you a beer if you're right. If not, at least you have made a contribution to FS Awareness.

NEVER let us develop a culture where people are afraid to make a comment. JSL's example with de-icing sums up how important these things can be.

[lowcostdolly]

Toolman1.....Always,always tell the CC if you are worried :ok:

I would second what JSL and Airbornesoon have said in every respect.

I am an EZY SCCM and fly on the 319 almost daily. The very first time I heard that noise as a newbie doing the safety demo on pushback (am assuming that's when you heard it as well) it sounded awful :eek:! Que frantic call to the front and then explanation re the hydraulic system. Most of which went over my head I have to say. Suffice it to say we know this noise is normal.

That said you don't and you may have heard something significant so please keep pressing that button. We are not supposed to get up on taxi but can for a safety related duty.....your call may be safety related. On some airlines you will hear the CC seats for take off call...we would not answer then so if you hear/see something sooner rather than later is the time to tell us.

Scumbag you made reference to Kegworth. As a result of this a lot more emphasis has been put on communication on board and many procedures have been changed. One of our most valuable forms of comms comes from the SLF who can sometimes see things before we do or the warning systems pick it up.

Please don't wait for something to fall off the plane before flagging it up. If in doubt tell us :ok:

[Fright Level]

If the sound you heard was like a barking dog, then it was the hydraulic Power Transfer Unit (PTU). When one engine is running and the other not, the opposite hydraulic system is pressurised via the PTU which is very audible in the cabin, particularly 2/3 of the way back. Google "Airbus PTU" to find out more.

[flapsforty]

Curaçao, years ago, late in the evening, me happy stewardess after a nice slip. A 747, pax embarking via stairs for long transatlantic flight with a short stop at Caracas Maiquetia airport.
Pax are mainly tourists. Loudly dressed, loudly tanned and loudly pleased with life.
"Hey Miss, there´s a hole in yer plane hee hee." grinning & pointing at the aft door he´d just embarked through. OK, I´ve heard that one a few times.
"Thank you for telling me Sir, I´ll have a look." - polite smile and unintentionally forget about it.

"Young Lady, there is rather a large cavity in your aeroplane, right next to that door at the back." - posh elderly lady looking concerned.
Wrestle my way back through the flood of pax. Get out onto stair platform and by gosh there is indeed a ruddy big square hole in the skin. Dark out so difficult to see how deep.

"Boss, can one of you guys come to door 15, there´s hole in the fuselage, I want 1 of you to have a look at it before we leave please."
"Sure honey, a hole. Nurries, the second flight engineer will be down once we´ve got ´em all onboard." - polite answer and unintentionally forget about it.

When after a while I see no FE, I call back."Oh bugga, sorry sweets, forgot all about it. He´s on his way down as we speak."
Strapping lad with the big hands all FEs seemed to have, carrying a huge flashlight. Grins at me big time and goes "Ok where´s your hole babe?"

I show him, he shines the torch and the grin is gone.

Long story short, we flew low level to Caracas, a boarding bridge rather than boarding stairs airport, where the aircraft was grounded for 24 hours and a riveter was flown in to fix it.

Had we crossed the ocean with that hole undetected, we would probably now be at the bottom of it.

I have taken each and every pax remark seriously ever since.

If in doubt, tell the crew.

[Pontius Navigator]

I have seen two cracks, a hole, and an open panel.

One crack was on the engine nacelle and the flight was cancelled. The hole was on top of the fuselage, at night, and nigh impossible to see; te flight was cancelled.

The open panel was seen in flight. It would detach or it wouldn't. The consequences would probably be insignificant but if reported might have caused a turn back in mid-Atlantic; the difference would only have been an hour or so. I made a decision not to tell the crew.

The other crack was on a wing flap. It was not spreading although it was flexing with slight turbulence. I reported this to CC but their knowledge was less than mine and they simply asked me to remain in my seat after landing and point it out to the captain; they did not seem willing to take responsibility. When the captain saw it she thanked me and said she would call the engineers.

On much earlier flight my father said he had watched rivets popping on the wing. As a master mariner he was quite used to rivets popping on his ships so thought nothing of it. The aircraft was G-ALYV.

[bealine]

As a member of ground staff, I was standing by one of our GB Airways Boeing 737's (was it really a long time ago!) idly watching the passengers disembarking when I noticed that the window immediately behind the door looked wrong - slightly askew. I alerted an engineer who had arrived to "look at something on the flight deck" who promptly diagnosed that a window seal had gone and the window glass had shifted a bit.

He said that I was quite right to point it out because changing a seal now and resetting the glass would possibly save a decompression at some point - a situation which isn't likely to kill anyone if they follow the laid down procedures, but is nevertheless a very frightening experience.

So, yes, if you fly often and you know the usual looks, smells and sounds you experience around aeroplanes and your brain tells you there's something strange, it doesn't do any harm to let a crew member know.

[TightSlot]

Good Question & Good Responses people - Not a bad post on this thread - PPRuNe Pax/SLF Forum at its' best, and personally speaking, exactly why I like to work here.

Now added to Forum FAQ

[G SXTY]

My first indication of a fairly serious hydraulic problem was passengers noticing a ‘funny noise’. Two passengers, on two consecutive sectors, which was enough for us to call the engineers out.

The funny noise turned out to be an engine driven hydraulic pump which was on its last legs, and eventually ate itself a couple of sectors later. No noise or any other hint of a problem on the flight deck until it went bang.

Moral of the story – if anyone spots anything that doesn’t look or sound right, I’d like to know asap.

[HandyAndy]

Not noises but something equally worrying, on a CX midnight departure out of HKG for LHR, I was travelling with the wife in the first row of economy and during the short taxy to the runway my wife and I looked at each other at the same time and mimed "burning smell".

At about the same time, a cabin crew member was passing and I alerted her. She could also smell it and called the FD right away. Quick as lightning, the FO was downstairs and confirmed it wasn't in our imagination. We held for a short while and the smell did dissipate and we got underway with strict instructions to keep our noses tuned. Nothing further fortunately.

We probably missed a slot because of it but nobody was complaining. I'm sure a fire must be all crew's worst nightmare.

[bealine]

I'm sure a fire must be all crew's worst nightmare.Fire is almost anyone's worst nightmare whether in an aeroplane, a ship, a vehicle or a building!

Indeed, aeroplane engine fires and a remote way of extinguishing them made "Graviner" a very successful British company in 1933. It trades today as "Kidde Graviner" .

History (http://www.kiddegraviner.com/corp/details/0,10294,CLI1_DIV112_ETI7790,00.html)

The "Graviner" system, however, still works on the same principles that saved the lives of many a World War Two RAF aircrew.

[Sriajuda]

Many years ago, I was just a boy of about 12 yo, during a long flight from Bombay to Frankfurt, there were a lot of people from India on board who looked very 'traditional', quite apparently most of them had never flown before.

I was passing most of my time running around the plane, probably annoying other pax and cc....;)

I noticed one of the Indian pax, a middle-aged female, was trying to open one of the emergency doors. Fortunately, she was making no sense of the huge instructions in red...I remember it being quite a big aluminium handle that had to be rotated 90°...was a DC10.

I was very alarmed and found a flight attendant and told her. She apparently either did not believe me or had trouble understanding my poor English (I am German and had only started taking English lessons).

Once she saw the Indian pax at that door, she sure got to move quick!

She had to call in a male colleguage, and the 2 of them had to forcibly wrestle the woman away from the door. The FA later told me it was not dangerous, that the captain had to 'activate' the emergency doors before they could be opened, but I never believed her.

From then on, I have never stopped watching my fellow passengers a bit, just in case someone tries to do something stupid....

[sixmilehighclub]

Airborne Soon
1. Crew may not respond to a call button during taxi because they are required to be in their seat and secured at this time. In extenuating circumstances (and safety permitting) they may be released from their seat by whoever is in charge to ensure there is no emergency situation onboard.


Not strictly the case for all airlines.

BA for example - Once crew have been asked to take their seat, they must remain seated and strapped into their harness unless they need to attend to a 'safety related matter'. Indeed, but they can use their own discretion, no permission needed.
Evacuation is an obvious one, which they can initiate themselves.
Any other safety related matter such as overhead bins opening, passengers standing, or noticing something unusual regarding the behaviour of the aircraft (ie noises and smells), they can leave their seat providing it is safe to do so.

If they have been given notification of an imminent take off (cabin bell 'dings') then they must remain seated unless for an evacuation.

Call bells are not answered because usually it is a request for water or accidental button press on the handset for the entertainment.

If you have any concerns, try and summon the crew with hand gestures - there should always be someone in eyesight as they are required to view the cabin when seated.
If there is more than a few of you with a genuine concern and you can't get their attention, stand up (if safe). You'll soon have their attention.

Six:ok:

[ExXB]

Sriajuda - she was right when she said 'it was not dangerous' - because even superman couldn't open the door with the pressure differential. I'm not a pilot, but I don't think the Captain has to activate it - but possibly this is the case, although I can't think why it would be.

[peters0]

Like many on this thread, I've a few million air miles under my belt but did report and get a B777 turned back just before the runaway in Houston one time. I noticed that with the flaps up there was a large black rubber looking "thing" sticking up out of the rear of the wing. By the time I had pushed the call button, the Captain had lowered flaps for take off as he was taxiing out, and the rubber had vanished. The cabin crew who attended asked me if I though she should call the cockpit! I suggested yes, since as a private pilot myself it was fairly obvious things shouldn't stick up out of the wing and whilst I may only have been a rubber boot for the flaps, I have no idea what that may have done flapping around at Mach 0.85. The co-pilot to his credit came down the back whilst we were still taxiing, but couldn't see anything. I suggested they bring the flaps back up to see if it re-appeared, and fortunately it did. They turned the plane round, and got an engineer to glue it back in place. 40 mins later we were on our way and made up the time on route back to the UK. So, in the end, happy I pressed the button. Most likely it wouldn't have mattered, but since I'm not the bloke at the front, I'd rather let them take an informed decision when something was obviously wrong.

[Landroger]

Someone mentioned Kegworth? From what I know of that accident, if anyone had reported it - it certainly would have been fairly obvious to an engineer of any type sitting aft of the wing - then it would have made a huge difference. Oddly enough, it was because East Midland - which they were almost on top of - is BMI's service base and it made sense to land there, if it had been possible (legally/operationally) to continue to Dublin, then the problem would have become obvious in plenty of time.

I was coming home from a course in Milwaukee via ORD a few years ago and unusually found myself with an empty seat next to me. I fancied moving the seat arm out of the way before dinner was served - the crew were doing it at the time - and cleared stuff up to move the arm .... click! Out went all the cabin lights in our half of the aeroplane! :eek: Worse, there was a distinct smell of 'train set'. :eek::eek: I rapidly returned the arm to level and, after a few seconds, the lights came up again. :ok:

I thought; 'Nah, that can't be me ...... can it?' As an engineer working on very high tech kit, I didn't want to burn anything, but I wanted to be sure. Up with the seat arm .. click! Out go the lights - smell of train set. :eek: Down with the arm and on come the lights. Oh yes, it is me. :ugh: The next CC that came by - a bloke - I caught his eye and told him about the seat arm.

He assured me that they would deal with it as soon as they could and rushed off to serve dinner. As I was leaving the plane I reminded both him and what I thought was the Purser - do they have Pursers on American Airlines? - but I bet that aeroplane took off again with a very dodgy electrical fault in 36G!

Roger.

[The Civil Civillian]

Flapsforty: "Strapping lad with the big hands all FEs seemed to have, carrying a huge flashlight. Grins at me big time and goes "Ok where´s your hole babe?"

I show him, he shines the torch and the grin is gone.

Long story short, we flew low level to Caracas, a boarding bridge rather than boarding stairs airport, where the aircraft was grounded for 24 hours and a riveter was flown in to fix it."

How does an aircraft develope a hole in the fuselage?

Did the wheels pick up a piece of something and fling it up on the earlier take off? [a la the French Concorde accident?]

[redsnail]

TCC. Someone drove into it.

Honey cart, truck delivering the catering, the stairs...
Baggage carts..

List is endless. :suspect:

[The Civil Civillian]

Cheers... so obvious when you know the answer.

But vehicles hitting aircraft and not realising it or if they did, not reporting same? :eek: :eek: :eek:

[maycli]

Recently sat next to emergency door, row 12 on a A320. Passenger sat in aisle seat totally ignored safety briefing continuing to read newspaper. Was in two minds to press call button but knowing that I was the one who would have been first out was I wrong ?

[jimtherev]

If the guy was on an aisle seat, wouldn't he have been in the eyeline of one of the CC doing the demo? Or are they just resigned to some of the PAX - even in the exit row - totally ignoring them.
Not all, of course... I was on a EZ flight a couple of years back when the briefing was stopped and re-started "for the benefit of the couple in row X who have been gossiping during this important safety briefing!" How we did snigger...

[TurningFinals]

On a simmilar note..

I work on the ground, and whoever is the "headset man" for that flight is required to do a pre-departure walk around. This is to check that all doors/panels are secure, there is no FOD lying around, all ground equipment is clear of the aircraft etc etc.

On our walk round if we notice anything that we think may be a problem we are supposed to report it to the dispatcher who would in turn pass it to the flight deck, or pass it over the headset if the doors are already closed. This is the case even if we think it may delay the flight.

No one should be discouraged from reporting anything they think may be untoward, be it SLF or ground staff. Yes it may be trivial, or may cause a delay. However if it goes unreported it may cause something a lot worse.

[Waving_tug_boy]

Im a ramp agent, not long after i first started I jumped in a hold of a 737-800. this was the first flight of the day and i jumped in to do a inspection of cargo nets and all the usual stuff you have to do before loading the kite. Anyway there was a brown spray that looked like oil on the floor of the hold, and it looked like it has sprayed out of what turned out to be the fire detector :bored: So i shat it and called the engineer out who jumped in super fast to see what i had found. after about two seconds he had worked out it was coffee.

:8:O:O:D:D:D

Yes i got the piss ripped out of me for a very long time but, thats expected in this line of work. But even so if i ever jump in a hold again and somethings not right i'll still report as they know more about kites then me i just throw bags about.

[ZarfBeam]

Much apreciated thread!
I'm just SLF who has not yet logged millions of miles, but who is interested in (not only) A/C technology since young and enjoyed flights in single engine and gliders, too.
Although logistics, marketing and actual prices try to imagine that taking a flight might be like taking a bus, it's something different.
Even on a bus I'd try to make sure the driver is aware of dripping fluid, pices falling apart, the smell of melting insulation or unusual noises he might not be able to hear because he's sitting at the front of the vehicle, has his window open and is concentrated to find his way through the traffic.
I'd rather sit around some hours to wait for replacement than crashing into something. Even on ships, you'll still float for long time if the engine quits or the rudder gets stuck (provided no storms are heading for you).
Aboard an airliner, you need the structure in good shape, steering working, and some engines running, specially if you're going 'feet wet' over an ocean...

OK, the point (again) is: I'd not hesitate to make Cabin Crew aware of something unusual or anything that is recognized by more people than just me. They are the ones to decide and call for further inspection if they don't know if it's safe, even if that would lead to a delay. Or maybe they are the ones to tell me that it's fine and I shouldn't worry and at best tell me where the noise is coming from and maybe that I'm the 78th passengenr who mentions it today...

Yes, I'd pay the same price for my flight even without meals/drinks as long as there is someone to take care of me and my fellow passengers.
We're not just on a bus but we're on a BIG bus and we're even going to fly :)

[vacc1]

I'm a cabin manager on a B777 and have been flying for a number of years - all I can say is I always encourage you to point out anything at all that you see as being unusual - whether you see it, smell it or hear it.

I actually specifically mention in my briefings to my crew that they should always take any comments from pax seriously and report them to me or the Capt. Just the same I always ask the crew to let us know of the same issues as well.

Unfortunately there are some crew out there who don't respond the best when the same "normal" nosie that they hear everyday is pointed out but do know that we very much value your concerns.

As others have said once crew have been seated for take-off they normally won't respond to call bells, if you notice something then you'll need to get a crew members attention another way (pressing the call bell multiple times will normally be enough).

History tells us that had pax & crew spoken up many times that very unfortunate outcomes would have been very different.

So speak up - if it's something normal we'll let you know and if it's not then that's your good deed of the day!

Happy flying.

[martinmax69]

I seem to remember an Aloha B737 had a woman who, upon boarding, noticed a 'bulge and small crack' by the front door. If she had mentioned it earlier, Aloha would still have a FA with them. Her body was never found:sad: