RAF Reapers in Afghanistan

[Saintsman]

RAF outlines Afghan experience with Reaper UAV (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/03/10/339270/raf-outlines-afghan-experience-with-reaper-uav.html)

How are flying hours logged for this?

Is it considered 'flying' if the pilot / crew are not actually in the air. Do they still get flying pay?

If it is considered as flying, when would it not be considered as flying as some drones are no larger than model aircraft?

[The B Word]

Answers

In a normal RAF log book, 'yes' and 'yes' and Reaper is bigger than some light attack aircraft, so its hardly comparable to a model!!! :ugh:

B

[soddim]

No idea what the correct answer is but it seems to me that 'piloting' a UAV is much more akin to simulator time than flying time.

[Bring_back_Buck]

This has been done to death, could you kindly do your fishing elsewhere...

[Saintsman]

I am aware that the Reaper is somewhat larger than say a Desert Hawk but both are flown.

I suppose that because Desert Hawk is Army, it doesn't count :hmm:

[heights good]

Flying pay is a retention bonus for aircrew that have an obvious skill that could be transferred to civvie street. whether it is flying a "model" or not it is still a skill that for example a clerk doesnt have.

Would you expect an SF soldier to lose his SF pay if he was doing a job in MoD rather than jumping through embassy windows? or a submariner to ose his submarine pay if he was doing a training job on dry land?

Its the same thing

HG

[getsometimein]

Aircrew (2 per crew) are in a flying role and get flying pay as well as the opportunity for things like "Above average in the air"

The int person is in an int role so doesn't get flying. They are in a role just like they would be back in the UK.

[Pontius Navigator]

BGG, maybe, maybe not.

Take the case of the flying radar station. The UK approach is to take fully competent and trained ground environment personnel of suitable aptitude and fitness and employ them as aircrew for a couple of tours.

The USAF approach was to recruit airborne radar operators. The latter approach means you don't have to train them twice.

So, RAF UAV crews: take aircrew and train them twice.

Alternative: recruit them and train them once.

[neildo]

No idea what the correct answer is but it seems to me that 'piloting' a UAV is much more akin to simulator time than flying time.

The people that you kill/aide to kill are certainly not simulated though are they? I understand that's not all they get upto but it certainly must be a key role.

[Chris Kebab]

So do they get campaign medals, etc:confused:

[L J R]

They do when they do the LRE. - and most get to do the LRE during their tour

[Lima Juliet]

Saintsman

I am aware that the Reaper is somewhat larger than say a Desert Hawk but both are flown.

I suppose that because Desert Hawk is Army, it doesn't count

The difference between Reaper and DH3 is HUGE. With DH3 you pre-program a route and then just punt it airborne and it pretty well flies itself and then crash-lands back near you when it is ready. The X-Box controller that is often seen in Army adverts is for controlling the payload (ie. a small EO sensor) and not for flying the aircraft - the control box is for viewing where the DH3 is and for watching the sensor image. The Reaper on the other hand has a pilot at the controls at all times and is flown either through use of throttle/stick, a pre-planned route or an emergency routing should it lose the satellite link.

Here's DH3's control box...
http://www.satnews.com/cgi-bin/display_image.cgi?1044501517

Here's Reaper's control box...(an ISO container! called an MGCS)...
http://telstarlogistics.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834543b6069e2010535e87379970b-800wi

The pilots for Reaper need a full and current Instrument Rating because they fly under IFR - the DH3 operators (not pilots) do not beacuse the do not!

Enough said???

LJ

[L J R]

...that picture is a Mobile GCS and is a little more cramped. There are also fixed facility GCS which are a little more roomy...BTW the chick in the picture is cute...:ok:

[DADDY-OH!]

L J R

LRE...? Lunches Ready to Eat????
:ok:

[Heliringer]

Is there any reason for the Reaper crew in that photo to be wearing flying clothing?:ugh:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Is there any reason for the Reaper crew in that photo to be wearing flying clothing?:ugh:

Yep, because they can :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

[Trim Stab]

The pilots for Reaper need a full and current Instrument Rating because they fly under IFR


Do you really mean IFR, or do you mean IMC?

[Guzlin Adnams]

Are there any plans to relocate the operation at Creech back to the uk?
I suppose that mutual support would suffer if that happened but maybe technology would ease that situation.

[getsometimein]

There are plans but there is no budget and still a question as to the 3 bases in the running.

[L J R]

The MQ-9 has to fly IFR because it cannot fly VFR.....To Fly IFR and perform the entire sortie on instruments - in both IMC and VMC, and to land it on instruments every time, you need an Instrument Rating.

They fly MQ-9s in US National Class A Airspace separated from jumbo jets in LA Centre, et al. They cannot descend below 18k and go VFR like all the Bantaranties...

Keep the questions comming, slowly we will answer them and inform the great 'inquisitive crowd' about some basic facts that make this type of platform unique - and hopefully educate those who might have a desire to one day fly them.:O

[Trim Stab]

So if it flies IFR in theatre, do you file a flight plan? Follow SIDs and STARs?

How do you know if it is getting iced up?

And by the way, I am TA officer and (recently unemployed) bizjet pilot - any chance of volunteering to fly one?

[L J R]

I will leave the 'in theatre' questions to those who need to know. But rest assured it is all done correctly and integrated with the manned community.....

[Trim Stab]

Ok, but the question remains, how do you know if it is getting iced up?

[Lima Juliet]

Trim stab

How do you know if it is getting iced up?


Suspect icing? Then use the very expensive camera turret (MTS-B) to look at the leading edges or pylons, where ice should start first. Also, stay away from icing conditions (that needs high humidity and a range of cold - ie. certain levels in clouds, where the main sensor doesn't work very well for seeing the ground anyway!!!). Can't remember if there is an ice detection capability but I do remember that the intake has anti-icing. Also, Flight reported that GA's new version of MQ-9(Guardian) has "New features slated for first use on the Guardian include an electromagnetic expulsion de-icing system for wing and tail leading edges, an onboard traffic alert and collision avoidance system, a laser altimeter-based landing guidance system for pilots at altitudes below 100ft (30m), and a Jeppesen electronic flight bag for mission planning and weather information in the ground control station. " - see Guardian leads Predator B modernisation push (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/12/14/336046/guardian-leads-predator-b-modernisation-push.html)

By the way, I'm sure most know, but for the slightly confused, you can fly Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) in Visual Met Conditions (VMC) but it is pretty tricky to fly Visual Flight Rules (VFR) in Instrument Met Conditions (VMC) - Reaper normally flies IFR in VMC and IMC in peacetime airspace (ie. USA et al). In warzones the rules for flightplans are somewhat different (most call them an Air Tasking Order request!!!).

LJ :ok:

[Trim Stab]

Thanks for the clarification on the IFR operating rules theatre v peacetime - your original posting raised a lot of questions...

But I reckon operators will still get caught out by icing if all they have to rely on is stay away from icing conditions (that needs high humidity and a range of cold - ie. certain levels in clouds, where the main sensor doesn't work very well for seeing the ground anyway!!!). because I can guarantee after several thousand hours of chugging around at medium levels in all weathers in a Beech that those rules of thumb are not always reliable.

[Prop-Ed]

The MQ-9 has an ice detector located somewhere near the nose.

OAT readings are supplied to the pilot and WSO.

Crews will use the forward looking EO/IR camera and the Turret/Pod/MTS-B to determine if cloud or precipitation is in the area.

The Turret/Pod/MTS-B is also used to visually inspect the airframe to detect icing.

Will that do?

[rathebelucky]

Is there any reason for the Reaper crew in that photo to be wearing flying clothing?:ugh:

Unfortunately all other options were discarded, a bloke down the pub that knows one of the geezers sisters boyfriends stated that:

1. More appropriate attire for the location such as t-shirts and flip flops during the day and more formal evening wear (think Liberace) were considered inappropriate and might smack of fun in an age when the serious business of warfighting is ongoing.

2. No1's, whilst certainly encouraging the impression of an altogether more romantic/glamorous/dashing* era of the RAF was deemed likely to be too uncomfortable for more than 1-2 hrs at a time, particularly for the older aircrew (read too fat).

3. No2's. Nope No1's or nothing. And naked was right out, at least til a Bootie gets his foot in the door.

4. Desert DPM. Good God Man and look like Percy! Apart from the rugged jawline, good looks and masculine charm (including the females? You decide!) how will anyone know they are aircrew

5. Temperate DPM. Sooo Cold War.

6. Specific UAV attire to be developed at exhorbitant cost, under a UOR, to fill a niche in this thrilling new and exciting branch of aviation. Still in the process of cost and evaluation apparently. Rumours have it that this will be delivered some time after its required and considerably over budget, but as I say, only rumour at this time so hush hush.

Unfortunately this required aircrew to look in their wardrobes for something to wear to work for prolonged periods of time. Fortunately however all aircrew have an excess of previously issued flying suits amassed through their illustrious careers on previous types. Given that aircrew are known to eat,sleep and drink in these things they were determined to be suitable for the task until something better can be sourced.

Hope this helps.

*delete as appropriate

[The B Word]

rathebelucky

Great post mate - some people, eh? I've never understood why so many 'Guins have issues with Flying Suits - I've heard less whining from an APU!

Although, given the Sqn's locale I would have thought some attire like this would be more appropriate? I think this might be one of the MACR WSOps? :E

http://prsvr.com/Websites/prsv/Images/fat-elvis-costume.jpg

[Prop-Ed]

Can someone who understands how to use this "white man's magic" known as the "tinternet", Hyperlink the above response for all future UAV threads to save thousands of future posts from future twots asking: " Why are they wearing flying suits!?" or " I heard out in Vegas, they wear flying suits!" etc etc.....

So if someone could rustle that up and make it happen, it'd be much appreciated.
:ok:

Edited to clarify: That is the post above The B Word's (who posted his a split second before mine!).

[Farm-for-sale]

Outrageously good post from rathebe, with this level of banter I weep for the future of other forums...

Maybe the advent of Unmanned / Uninhabited / Remotely Piloted / Other aviation (and ground/sea-viation too) can now get on with the business of being the biggest change to the warfighting community since the last biggest change (I forget, but was that balloons, planes, tanks, gunpowder or machine guns... all laughed at in their time).

Oops, fell off the fence, sorry...

[higthepig]

Originally Posted by Heliringer
Is there any reason for the Reaper crew in that photo to be wearing flying clothing?

Seldomfitforpurpose
Yep, because they can

Nah, bunch of tarts who struggle doing up buttons..................

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Nah, bunch of tarts who struggle doing up buttons..................

But they do look comfy though :ok:

[TheInquisitor]

The seats in the GCS are plenty comfy - they even go up and down and everything!

Now if only we could get some air con units that have temp settings other than "freeze your nuts off" and "cook all the computers", we'd be proper set!!

BTW the chick in the picture is cute...

Looks even better in her blues, as I recall!!