A single European pilots union?

[beernice]

Is it time for one European pilots union? The airlines have moved across borders and now even the former “national” carriers are multinational. Yet our pilot unions are still very much based within national borders. We now can see the future of aviation in the medium term, blocks of largely state carriers fronted by BA, Lufthansa and Air France joined by Ryanair, Easy and maybe Air Berlin. If we look at BA, Lufthansa and Air France they are headquartered in their original countries of origin. However who says this has to remain. It would make sense if these companies moved their headquarters and employement contracts to say Ireland to take advantage of its low corporate tax rate and lax employment laws. Ryanair already has all European contracts based in Ireland, there is talk of Easy moving all its UK contracts to the continent. This is the future and there is no point in trying to hold back time, we need to talk about this now.
Lets have a look at Ryanair. I take this as an example, what is happening in Ryanair probably will happen in your company, it has to or else that company cannot compete, lets call it the lowest common denominator. This is not about Ryanair management ( they are doing their job- making money) it is about us as pilots and our actions. Ryanairs pilots have allowed their terms and conditions to become seriously eroded. A Captain in Ryanair that has an Irish contract for about 10 years is on about 93000 euro basic. A new Ryanair captain starts at just over 49000 euro rising to 60000 euro ( in the UK max is about 54000 stg). If your base is closed down or you apply to move you go onto the new rates. You can see salaries have reduced by about a third in ten years.
Ryanair has approx half of its pilots not employed directly by Ryanair but what they like to call an in-house employment provider. It is not clear who owns this company but as far as I know it only provides pilots to Ryanair and these pilots can only fly for Ryanair. These guys are paid by flight hour. Strangely Ryanair considers these pilots “ contractors” although by definition a contractor works for more than one company. The idea behind these guys is that if the employed pilots go on strike the “ contractors” will keep the show on the road.
Ryanair also has pilots from over 100 different nationalities. The Irish Aviation Authority will give almost anybody a 12 month exemption. How they get work permits I don’t know but this is a serious concern. If we go to the US there is no hope of getting a job with our qualifications yet we welcome them here even though we have many unemployed pilots. And more importantly in some parts of the world the going rate for a captain is about $2000. We know how many pilots are being produced in China and India amongst others. Will these pilots commute to and from Europe when European pilots cannot afford to live in Europe on the wages on offer? Are any of the unions dealing with this?
Medicals, hotels for sim or safely courses, license- all this comes out of your own pocket.
So does Ryanair have a union- NO. Will it have a union in the short to medium term- NO. Why? 41 bases across numerous jurisdictions. It is impossible to organise a union across so many jurisdictions. If one country votes for a union and strike Ryanair will simply reverse fly the sectors from the countries not on strike.
This post is not about Ryanair, they are just an example. The template they are following is beginning to be followed by the other airlines. Unions in their present state are totally ineffective in Ryanair, and will become ineffective in your airline unless changes are made NOW!!!

[demomonkey]

Gets my vote. The world has changed FUNDAMENTALLY and I doubt any single Union could evolve to the new world order that is being unleashed. :ok:

Alot of vested interests and inter-union politics though make short term change unlikely. Unless there is someone special out there to make it happen?

[abfgh]

I agree, as long as it is not BALPA!

[captplaystation]

This is a massive problem.
The two protagonists in Ryanair IALPA/BALPA couldn't even coordinate a recognition campaign about 3yrs ago. IALPA was very confident of numbers & wanted it, and wanted it NOW, but the encumbent head honcho in BALPA refused to go for recognition as there was no full time BALPA employee dedicated to Ryanair (or some such bullsh1t) & the best they were prepared to offer to secure a suitably qualified & motivated candidate was a fixed period contract :ugh:
The long and the short of it is that due to this ineffectual dithering the impetus was lost, and that level of momentum & union membership hasn't and probably won't, be seen again.
As Beernice alluded to, recognition may have opened up a bigger can of worms than it solved, as Ryanair would have furiously transfered bods/contracts to other countries, but , it "might" have worked.
This problem is probably not insurmountable, but it will be very difficult indeed to invent a union that can operate within the local laws and answer to the needs of 10 or 20 different countries.
Maybe this is how I could make my fortune in life :hmm: , now is definitely the moment, although it may already be too late , it certainly is not going to get any simpler in the future.
As in all aspects of commercial aviation, be it questionable passenger treatment, or sharp employment practices, where Ryanair lead & Easy closely follow (although I think Easy might have nudged ahead here with their recent Cadet/PARC schemes) the rest are following as sure as night follows day. Lets see too if Aer Lingus try and dig themselves out of the mire by moving stuff around, this will be a good indication of whether the "Astreus adventure" was a one off, or the trojan horse.

[GreatBelt]

Couldn't agree more. We most have a Union that cross bordes in the EU. easyJet is trying very hard to follow in the footsteps of Ryanair. It seems all new comers in Ezy get lower Terms and Conditions. In Berlin they are trying to introduce a B-scale for new pilots. New cabin crew in Madrid are on flex roster. The Flexi crew contract etc. Exactly a copy of the Ryanair tactics.

The only ones that have really stood up to esy so far in the Berlin pilots and cabin crews, who has been on a "warning strike" two times now and I would not be supriced if we see a full blown strike there soon.

Its called Social dumpning. We must have the bigger Unions to lobby in Brussels

[JW411]

"We must have bigger unions to lobby in Brussels"

You are jesting, of course. I have considerable experience in working in Belgium.

We ended up with THREE labour unions demanding to represent us (over and above the Belgian Cockpit Association).

A European Pilots Union will simply never happen. There are too many vested interests to prevent that ever happening. It is simply not possible.

[Microburst2002]

Maybe not a great single european union.

But why not two or three?
Or more. the important thing is that they have to become multinational.

EZY, RYR and the like pilots should unite, to fight the enemy with a chance of success. They don't need BA, KLM or Lufthansa.

In the same manner than the Euro was an error (we only know after 10 years), a union for both flag carriers and locos would be an error, too.

We need more effective unions and good lawyers.

[GreatBelt]

When I say we need bigger unions I refer to the likes of VERDI, who is behind the easyJet guys in Berlin. They have more than 2 mio. members and are one of the largest unions in the world. They have a big amount of ressources, access to the press, political influence etc.

This is the sort of organisation it requires to take on the fancy lawyers from easyJet and Ryanair and put pressure on the political level...

[demomonkey]

There already exists the European Cockpit Association which is an umbrella organisation for all the EU countries individual union: European Cockpit Association (ECA) - eurocockpit.be (http://www.eurocockpit.be/)

They've got a few campaigns going at the moment, if they're successful maybe we could see them step up a gear and start to really tackle the problem of 'Social Dumping' we are witnessing daily.

Another solution would be for each individual country's 'Authority' to stop being a toothless paper tiger who is quite happy to hide behind archaically worded regulations enjoying index linked civil servant salaries dreaming of a time their final salary pensions kick in and actually stand up and force airlines to adopt minimum wage, working time directives even basic working practices our ground based brethren take for granted.

The 'Authority' tells us that they regulate the industry, but from what I see at the moment its a like the wild west out there. Even Adam Smith or Henry Ford would wince at the way some airlines operate.

Bitter moi? No, but I do believe in fairness and I am loathed to sit back and watch two airlines (one Orange and one Blue) screw hard working, enthusiastic people into longterm financial hardship for the sake of a few sovereigns.

[bfisk]

Fellow pilots!

Wake up and smell the coffee -- there already IS such a body, and it's called the ECA. Through local/national unions, over 38.000 (yes, 38 thousand) pilots in europe alone are members. Also so, they are members of the IFALPA that has more than 100.000 members worldwide.

Why the sudden rush to reinvent the wheel? Remember that the very spirit of unionisation is to unite -- join in and have a say. Even if you will not get it exactly 100% to your liking, history has proven the effectiveness of collective bargaining. What needs to be done is local; and I'm sure your national umbrella organisations will help you set up a union if you don't have one already.

I was lucky to get hired into a healthy company where the union works with the management, not against it, towards our common goal, which is to help build a strong, profitable operation, but not at any cost.


Proud member of ECA and IFALPA :ok:

[Microburst2002]

Fellow Bfisk!

The problem is those in unhealthy airlines where the management wants to destroy its employees T&Cs, no matter what, and they fight against any trial of union, negotiations, etc...
The "health" of the airline does not depend on the way the union workes. It depends mainly in the management.

If all airlines where like yours, no problem. But that is not the case.

Locally nothing can be done. Divided as we are, locally, we are easy preys.

[starburstOne]

In so far as individual european states retain own civil aviation authorities and rules of employment remain a national interest then an eu wide pilot union will never work!

Some EU states promote own national interests while only a few countries open up their pilot job markets to all european nationals. Indeed, in some eu countries, it is impossible to find other non-nationals working their airlines. They used language, licence conversion and any other reason to better own interests. This then means the muscle required to ensure an EU pilot union success is huge let alone deemed to be in place b4 the current incumbent pilots are in employment, i.e occur within next 20 years.

Similarly, the disjointed nature of pilot outlook at own careers will not support an eu-wide union perspective. Pilots are the first to agree to low wage schemes, even undertaking cabin crew tempo conversion training in order to retain own butter. Some even pay-to-fly just to get a foot in the door. As such, this our profession has lost its credibility and marketability for top management within airlines.

Complaints about recruitment agencies abound and yet the pilot is nowhere to be seen running own recruitment agencies. This only strengthens the ideas that pilots need a headmaster figure to manage even own careers. Airlines have supported these views in order to weaken pilot [management] bargaining strength. Small wonder then that pilot salaries have eroded to such levels it no longer is among the most sought after career path for youngsters.

An EU-wide pilot union would need to start at common european wide legislation. This in turn requires a similar but user adopted common mandate of management, employment, terms and conditions, benefits, etc that apply to all eu aoc holders. In the absence of this, only sporadic strikes here and there within the eu will take place with no common agenda or resolution.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

The trend in Government is anti-Union, at least in the UK, as everyone is aware (since the efforts of Maggie to 'break' the powerful unions).

The trend in airlines is to 'contract out', as it is in a lot of industries - particulary when a recession helps the process (particularly the very airlines where a union might provide dividends).

The UK pilot body has failed to establish a cohesive whole and has not managed to organise itself into an effective force.

Against all these issues how on earth do you anticipate a pan-European Union is ever going to be organised, let alone become effective against the very airlines who vehemently oppose the idea?

It seems to me like a dream which will remain just that - a dream?!

KR

FOK

[KC135777]

As Benjamin Franklin said 234 years ago:

"We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."

[Bruce Wayne]

The trend in Government is anti-Union, at least in the UK,


FOK, in what alternate reality is that precisely ?


The Labour Party is a membership organisation consisting of Constituency Labour Parties, affiliated trade unions, socialist societies and the Co-operative Party, with which it has an electoral agreement.



a party founded by the unions to represent the interests of working-class people,



The trade unions still however represent Labour's main source of funding



The party's decision-making bodies on a national level formally include the National Executive Committee (NEC), Labour Party Conference and National Policy Forum (NPF)



The National Executive Committee or NEC is the chief administrative body of the UK Labour Party



As of 2009 the NEC had 33 members elected from the following constituencies:

6: Constituency Labour Parties
2: Labour Councillors
12: Affiliated Trade Unions
1: Socialist and co-operative societies
3: MPs or MEPs elected by all Labour MPs and MEP
2: Leader and deputy leader of the party
1: Treasurer
1: MEP leader of the European Parliamentary Labour Party
3: MPs nominated by the Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet
1: Young Labour
1: Black Socialist Society

Harriet Harman the deputy leader of the Labour Party, sits on the NEC, as does her husband Jack Dromey, who in addition to being treasurer of the NEC is...


...a British trade unionist, Deputy General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union and Treasurer of the Labour Party.


and just to cap it all...

UNITE has provided £11million to Labour over the last three years and is bankrolling the party's election campaign

[opherben]

Unions are useful as long as they refrain from advancing their cause unfairly at the account of others. While BA uses 11 B777 CC where legal requirements are 8 and the union demands 12 during times of financial aviation trouble, that union is working against the well being of that airline, the aviation business and the general public.

I therefore caution anyone of forming, participating in or supporting strong unions, we know all about human nature, which has a long track record.

I worked once in a large world-known private company, which prohibited unionizing of its employees. The company was in good position as industry leader, and more than 15 qualifying applications for each vacancy. They are right. Don't like working there, go elswhere. Without unions, the UK, the US car industry as examples and their workforces would have been much better off, financially and in any other way. Any worker strikes lately in Japan Airlines, MALEV, Czech Airlines, Danube Wings, to name a few?

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Well let's see how effective UNITE are against BA?

So far BA-1, UNITE-0.

Maybe they'll wish they'd kept the £11million as a 'fighting fund' or to pay their striking members when the time comes?

If there was a need, or indeed a possibility, of a pan-European pilots' union, then there have been several decades in which to organise one - result so far no union.

I may well be proved wrong but I'd bet BA would rather cease trading and re-organise themselves than give in to employee pressure. If they have the resources of Sir RB then UNITE may succeed, if not they are sure to fail - one way or the other.

The same will apply to low-cost operators when it comes to the pilot workforce. These people are hard men and a disorganised, wimpish pilot workforce are cannon fodder to the likes of MOL et al.

I bet MOL is quaking in his boots at the prospect of a European pilots' union - NOT!

KR

FOK

[GlueBall]

bfisk: "Wake up and smell the coffee -- "

That's an interesting comment, because at dirt-bag outfits like Ryan Air, pilots are first having to pay for it. . . :eek:

To be sure, it's a long way to go for an EU airlines collective bargaining unit. . .

The EU countries can't even collectively decide whether to bail out bankrupt Greece; . . . and you're trying to get Olympic Air pilots on the same page as SAS pilots . . . :{

[bfisk]

Yes, yes, I'm not saying it will work perfectly today, or tomorrow for that matter. It's a long way to go.

However the thread starter seem to propose starting a pan-European union from scratch, when there already is one established with 38k members. No need to reinvent the wheel.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

How effective can a pan european union be whilst Ryanair is refusing to recognise one? Every time everybody else would go on strike, it would make Ryanair stronger.

The first item of a pan european union must be to lobby Brussels to put pressure on the Irish government so that Ryanair abides to European standards of labour laws and union recognition...

P

[starburstOne]

as pilots we cannot and should not have cake and be allowed to eat it too!

seems to me the union route is the only way forward to accommodate worker bargaining power. those that hate to see the pay-to-fly cowboys albeit with good reason to get a foot in the aviation door; and bad airlines which constantly chip away at pilot salaries and benefits [even in good economic times] in the name of profit maximisation will succumb to the inevitable that such practices will continue unabated. individual pilots will never get airlines to curb their quest for wanting every drop of a pilot sweat and blood as contribution at lowest cost, [highest cost to the pilot].

airlines are augmenting rules and practices that are in most [some] countries damn-right illegal. employer airlines cannot embark on tax avoidance practices by shifting labour force to offshore companies. and those pilots adopting such practices are in a lose-lose situation. if your company goes under, chances are you will expect your government to look after your social welfare; but how would governments do that when bankruptcy accounting procedures such as tax avoidance leave them with empty pockets. certainly, if all industries adopted these practices you will have enlarged civil service sector just to investigate and chase after errant airlines; let alone non-domicile nationals for tax owed.

in the end the pilot loses as the employment contract he signs is with an accounting company with no regard to personal rights and welfare. employment choice will be limited as the open tap of cowboy flyers continue to fan the airline thirst for more! meanwhile, those that end up taken hostage for flying into dangerous and non-friendly states; or indeed arrested for sanction busting, etc will look to their countries to bail them out; at the cost of you know-what lost state income.

these practices will eventually be corrected. the only difference will be the lost earnings and/or licence of the pilot where compared to a [similar] hedge fund manager caught in tax avoidance aspects, who will have hidden millions and never ever need to work anymore!

the trouble seems to be that pilots have no role models anymore! its everyone looking after numero uno!

alas!

[320seriesTRE]

I thought it already exists...... The ECA in Brussels?:ok:

I am not sure that they are interested in anything else other than their lunches and dinner parties though:mad:

[Alpine Flyer]

As has been posted before, there already IS a Europea Cockpit Association. As of now, membership is open to pilot associations, but there are thoughts on how to improve on this and how to better accomodate trans-national airlines like EZY (already in progress) and Ryan (tougher).

Lots of thought is given to how to prevent P2F, the current move to more contract work, etc.

Many smaller associations would love to give ECA more power and make it a real union. Many bigger unions (UK, Spain, Germany, France) object to this as it would take power away from them.

ECA is far from being a union but it could become one, if the pilots of Europe wish it to be.

One should, however, not be too optimistic about this. While ALPA International has but two countries, two similar legal systems and effectively one language to deal with, Europe has 27 legal and tax systems and almost as many languages. That makes imposing uniform contracts a lot more challenging.

Whether it is ECA or BALPA, we need to stick together and convince our brothers that they better stick together with us, too. This is the only way to save and improve our profession.

[Alpine Flyer]

The "lunch and dinner" and expenses argument is misplaced.

As for the expenses argument, that was intially brought up by MoL, a well-known friend of the pilot community.

One could argue that it's better to spend money talking to people than to spend it in court, which should only be a "last resort".

As pointed out before, representation works by meeting people, both to meet members and to discuss policy. Much of the IFALPA member organization's work is done by committees who work out a mutually agreeable policy which is then taken to ICAO for implementation. This ends up on the balance sheet as "meetings" because there is no way to get a lawyer to make ICAO do something. That's the way with lobbying.

All those who think "Lobbying" to be a dirty word should consider that our employers, be it AEA, ELFAA or ERA spend copious amounts of money to convince BRU based as well as national bureucrats and politicians to enact legislation they want. If we don't put up with them, we'll end up with laws made for airlines, not laws made for pilots.

Pilots are one of the best connected professions worldwide. IFALPA represents over 100.000 pilots and a global cooperation like this needs the occasional face-to-face exchange to reinforce the bonds. The fact that humans prefer face-to-face meetings over video-conferences, phone calls or chats is one of the cornerstones of our industry. We should be aware that we need to meet fellow pilots face-to-face from time to time if we want them to assist us in times of crisis.

[SLATS_EXTEND]

Any union that would promote it's members SCABBING for another union by cross training as a stewardess is not a union but a shill of scared little yellow belly'd women..

VC is my vote for a common Euro Union...