Aer Lingus to cut 670 jobs

[Dreamshiner]

Just seen the ticker on the bottom of BBC News which prompted me to the website. Yet more news that will result in more resignation for us in this industry.

Yet more bad news for Aviation (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8558653.stm)

Anyone know how many of this number are pilots if at all?

For all those taking voluntary redundancy, whatever your current role, I wish you well. For all those will be told they'll be taking compulsory then I hope it's a temporary measure and wish you good luck.

[B767PL]

I can't even remember what it's like to hear any good news for aviation. :yuk:

[Lord Lardy]

Anyone know how many of this number are pilots if at all?



No compulsory redundancies from the pilot group. Any pilot choosing to leave will be doing so on a voluntary basis with a generous redundancy package and pension. It's attractive for those at the higher end of the seniority list nearing retirement.

The only compulsory redundancies out of the number quoted are 230 cabin crew jobs which have come as a result of them rejecting the company cost saving plan. Although I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of deal will be struck in the next couple of weeks.

[Iver]

Time for Ryanair to take over Aer Lingus. This is long past due. Ryanair doing quite well under the circumstances and it is much better managed (despite a psycho CEO). Aer Lingus is a joke in its current form and everyone knows it.

[waffler]

As this is a pilots forum Iver enlighten us as to the benefits of Ryanair taking over Aer Lingus for pilots.

[Dreamshiner]

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p281/matt518672/can-of-worms.jpg

[Iver]

Waffler,

Well, I can think of a few benefits:

1. You may keep your job over the long-term (given that Aer Lingus management has done a terrible job in general and layoffs seem to be a recurring theme and result of bad planning. Layoffs should be viewed as failure for management teams)

2. You could work for an airline that is actually feared/respected by other airlines that creates expansion opportunities for its pilots - there is already talk of a longhaul LCC with Ryanair.

3. Ryanair's CEO is a jerk but at least he is predictable - he is focused on economic returns that allow the airline to prosper

Waffler, your sense of entitlement is misplaced back in the 1980s. Nobody is "entitled" to a great job these days. Sure, we want to earn more and have fantastic schedules but times have changed. There could be a big shakedown in European airlines in the future and I suspect most pilots would want to be on a winning team. Perhaps you don't - you want to live in the past. Aer Lingus has a great history and brand - but it is a dinosaur.

Time to face the facts and give Ryanair its opportunity to take Aer Lingus in a different direction. Why not? Aer Lingus is as well managed as Sabena or Alitalia. Sure, Ryanair is not perfect for pilots by any stretch, but it is a winning operator - that is a fact. I've spoken with many Ryanair pilots who appreciate the stability, firm schedules and new aircraft. It's not perfect, but waiting for the unemployment notice or management's next misstep would not be perfect either.

Aer Lingus has had the opportunity to shine and it has failed. As hard as it may be, it is time to face the facts... The Irish Government should step aside and allow a winner to chart a new course for this relic...

[waffler]

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion
Iver, I don't share it and will not be running
into the arms of its " psycho " Chief Exec. With
my € 25000 for my 737 conversion followed
by my posting to some far flung part of Europe with
my family.I am sure on some accountants website
it makes perfect sense to be assimilated but
not on this. I will not debate any more on this
as it bores people who are not directly affected by
current events and I understand that.

P.s love the picture

[tony2F]

Well lets hope Aer Lingus irons out all the wrinkles, I certainly dont fancy a €28K (max)a year job as an FO under a ryanair take over. I have very good friends in Ryan who got in when the going was good, certainly dosnt look like a good deal nowadays and the terms are deminishing all the time. Ryan's CEO certainly is entertaining, I personnally think he's certainly havin a laugh......

[Iver]

"Well lets hope Aer Lingus irons out all the wrinkles"

Tony2F,

While I appreciate your quote above, I think it has been stated over and over and over again with Aer Lingus. Similar situation at Alitalia. At some point, the Irish Government will realize that you just can't keep beating a dead horse. Yes, Aer Lingus is becoming a dead horse. It can't compete. It's strategies are defensive and money-losing. It can't compete effectively against Ryanair on routes because of its higher cost structure. How will Aer Lingus ever regain its competitive edge and make the necessary profits? Add to this the various American airlines (AA, Delta, CAL) serving Ireland from the US and making those transatlantic routes less lucrative. It's a tough business when you don't have a cost structure that promotes profits... The Irish Gov't should acknowledge this and consider a change. Ryanair has a strong record and it is a major shareholder... Aer Lingus can't always operate as a Gov't jobs program where people always feel entitled to their jobs regardless of the competitive realities - especially in this tough economy.

I agree that the prospect of working for Ryanair can be negative for many people given the CEO's reputation and some of the ridiculous cadet schemes out there. Therefore, some sort of accomodation would obviously need to be made for current Aer Lingus pilots for that to work. Perhaps some fences on widebody equipment initially and a clearer salary scheme for all with seniority protection (I am sure this would all be very complex to figure out - I am no expert on merging pilot groups). That said, it would be worth it for Ryanair because they could expand their market within Ireland (and to/from the UK and the Continent) and have access to a Transatlantic operation (leverage it for their own LCC operation). If moving forward would mean compromising with some union groups (both sides would have to be accomodative), perhaps this could become a reality and the end result would be a very strong operation with healthy employment vs. a weak, dithering national carrier... In this economy, you never know what could happen. Just remember, Alitalia didn't last long as a standalone carrier with its chronic losses.

I don't claim to have all the answers. This is just my opinion/perspective. Aer Lingus is always losing money and it can't stand out in the crowd like it once did. Ryanair, like it or not, is a winning carrier with a very strong operation. It might be time for a change.

[Callsign Kilo]

I personally think many at EI would rather see the whole lot fold than it going to Ryanair. The two companies are like comparing apples to oranges and things at FR are so far removed from EI that I believe that quite a few of their tin can drivers would prefer to say 'It was good while it lasted, sad to see it go' than walk through the doors of the white house.

In my opinion EI will be OK. However it won't be the EI that we have known over the years.

And as for MOL making a distinction between EI pilots to his own...never in a month of Sundays. We, they or anyone else is merely a spoke in the wheel.

[170to5]

Iver

You are entitled to your opinion, but if you look at the numbers, Aer Lingus isn't doing as badly as everyone always seems to think, considering. It had an absolute hammering in recent months, as all carriers have, but their balance sheet is surprisingly strong (I'd say so anyway) for an airline that is always 'teetering on the brink', as many people (who don't work for the airline) seem to think.

Muller is changing the company pretty radically, from the top down, and is getting rid of the people who have treated the place as a gravy train for years - the number of posts being made redundant is very significant.

Maybe you should consider that while the company does have its difficulties (plenty of them - as all companies do), it has only been private since 2006 so to expect vast changes from a sheltered state carrier into a world leading private carrier is a bit much. Things are changing, and in my opinion, they're changing at an healthy pace.

And if RYR did take over, do you honestly thing it's be a good thing? They'd be about the only carrier into Dublin, so I'll guarantee prices would go up on DUB routes. That'd be a start. You're being very, very naive if you think MOL would treat any two pilot groups differently. He'd have all employees on the same pay scales, get rid of any union involvement (not particularly sure if you go in for union involvement anyway by the sound of it) and continue to do his best to destroy the industry he seems to have chosen to destroy. Put it this way - would you fancy that man taking over your company?

I have to say, 'Ryanair is not perfect for pilots by any stretch' is, in my opinion, a bit of an understatement. I've spoken to plenty of their guys who can't wait to get away from them. That includes guys on the old and new contracts, which is of course a new contract offering less pay. And still no pension contributions. And no uniform. And no accommodation when you're sent abroad for work. And it's a contract. And you're not employed by Ryanair. And you don't get car parking at work. Or crew food. Or water. Or a headset. That's, of course, what your potential saviour of Aer Lingus can be thanked for doing to pilot working conditions.

[Iver]

170to5,

Do you really expect Aer Lingus to get much better? Will it ever return to its former glory? I doubt it. I suppose it is a good jobs programme for the Gov't - but the taxpayers generally don't like that when there are other viable options.

Aer Lingus is broken and a shadow of its former self. AL's growth strategies don't work. Cost structures are out of line (never good for pilot groups) with incoming revenue. Sure, we are in a recession at the moment, but Aer Lingus have had these sorts of problems continuously. Don't get me wrong, I have been an Aer Lingus fan for my entire life - watching the green clovered airplanes fly over was always a highlight for me. But chronic problems require a remedy.

Working for MOL would not be easy (as many on Pprune can attest), but I would think a contractual deal could be worked out - purchase the remaining stake in Aer Lingus CONTINGENT on certain phased in approach as well as further investment in DUB to make it a more effective hub. Include contingent points in any plan - or NO DEAL. I readily admit this is complex and WAY ABOVE my level of expertise - I just feel that Aer Lingus continues to slug along to the detriment of tax payers and worried employees (fearful of being the next on the chopping block).

Meanwhile, Ryanair is well managed (from an operations standpoint - not an HR standpoint) and profitable. It is one of AL's largest shareholders and MOL probably has some good strategies to develop it to compete at the next level. Who knows - perhaps you could ultimately see low-cost 787 or A350 service in the coming years to the States, Caribbean, Dubai and Asia from many of Ryanair's current hubs... You never know. MOL would make it work from a profit standpoint and career opportunities could potentially expand.

Bottom line: no pilot should expect to become wealthy at Ryanair or Aer Lingus (or any airline) - especially at Aer Lingus if profits are so elusive. This sense of entitlement is misplaced - go to France if you want a job for life. At this point, anything is better than the current roller coaster Aer Lingus is riding.

[prunnepilot]

Working for MOL would not be easy (as many on PPRuNe can attest), but I would think a contractual deal could be worked out Would you really "think" so? In that case you seem to be as innocent as you are opinionated.

When ever did an employee group "work something out" with Ryanair? By way of a single example I seem to remember some quite bad things happening to former Buzz pilots, starting within days of promising a land milk and honey.

[170to5]

Iver

I appreciate the balanced response, but I really disagree with your belief that MOL would make good any promise for kind treatment of AL staff.

For one, he wouldn't need a deal if he became major shareholder, he could just start making whatever offers he wanted to. The size of RYR in europe and his management style would mean that his most likely course of action would be to make the following deal with AL employees:

1) Accept the same sh*t that I dole out to the other RYR (Brookfields for Pilots, of course) guys
or
2) I shut the entire AL operation down, sack you all, sell all the aeroplanes and buildings etc, then invite you to apply for Ryanair which is pleased to announce a major expansion of its 737 fleet. Paid for by the sale of 40 Airbuses.

Long haul low-cost, I don't believe he wants to go near it - he's had plenty of chance to by now but for some reason (Laker, People Express, Oasis Hong Kong) he's been wary. Carriers do succeed, such as Air Asia X and Jetstar, but they are yet to prove their long-term viability, as do Very Low Cost carriers, who will always manage to pick up passengers from more expensive airlines, but will always lose them when people are fed up of the treatment they are given, especially in abnormal circumstances - I know families with kids and disabled passengers that I've spoken to avoid the Blue and Yellows because of the treatment they're given. And in an increasingly wealthy Europe, (and I'm not saying, for all of those who will doubtlessly decide otherwise, that people will pay £400 quid more to sit in baths of asses milk on their way to Majorca - sorry, Barcelona South) I will be interested to see how healthy the market is for people who are willing to pay 10 or 20 quid more for a trip to get some half decent level of service and quality. This is the market served by Aer Lingus, Lufthansa, KLM, Air France, BA, bmi, Iberia etc etc.

I am ready for the response 'yeah but they're all losing money' - and yes, they are, but you know what? We're in the biggest, longest recession in almost half a century. Any company will do well to get through it, the trick is to have the money in the bank before you go into the downturn to protect against the losses you incur during it. That's what the money in the bank is for, unfortunately this rainy day has turned into a monsoon. And what a sad day it will be if those carriers disappear to be replaced by RYR in what would essentially be a monopoly on European aviation. Do you reckon he'd keep his fares low then?

[170to5]

One more thing, and this is something that constantly irritates me:

You finished your post with

'no pilot should expect to become wealthy at Ryanair or Aer Lingus (or any airline) - especially at Aer Lingus if profits are so elusive. This sense of entitlement is misplaced - go to France if you want a job for life'

Why should pilots not expect a job for life? The way things are going, the case is becoming that it will be difficult for guys to last 35 years. That's becasue we as an employee group don't stand up for ourselves.

A pilot trains hard, and it costs I reckon 120 grand all in to go from zero hours to a jet F/O, if he gets lucky and goes straight in to the RHS of an airliner.

He (me) is then subjected to the pressures of working in this industry. These pressures include, and are not limited to:

1) Responsibility for the safe return of a piece of machinery that is worth approximately $80,000,000 every time it's used

2) Responsibility for the lives of those in the back. Easy on a CAVOK day in many places, but as you taxy off 28 in Zurich, having flown through icing, moderate turbulence in cloud that goes down to minimums, landing on a short(ish), wet runway, with CB's all over the place and a pretty hefty lump of granite cloud in the way at the other end of the runway which you'll have to negotiate if you go around and the engine goes bang, I have thought 'well, that's why I earn every penny I'm paid'. Don't you?

3) We are a damn sight cheaper over even 35 years than the lawsuit, and bad publicity, that a company will be faced with if on the 9 O'Clock news one of the company machines is shown steaming in a blackened heap on a mountainside somewhere.

4) If we were to walk away from said blackened heap, we'd very possibly not work again, we may well lose our medical, we may also end up in a local jail. For a loooong time. One of the reasons we sit there is that 'Pilot Error' means the CEO doesn't end up in prison (my favourite reason for there never being unmanned passenger aeroplanes flying around).

5) Checks and exams every 6 months, not forgetting line checks etc

6) My lifestyle has me, along with most guys, waking up regularly at 04:00 or getting home at 01:00 from work, working a 12 hour shift, in a high pressure environment (when the weather's bad), missing family occasions, birthdays, not seeing their kids for a week at a time, Christmas, New Year's, weddings etcetc, only having the occasional weekend off...you know all this because it's your job too. So why don't you think we deserve to be well reimbursed for the disruption?

And if a response involves 'well you don't have to do the job', my answer is no, I don't, but I'm willing to do it so long as the reawrds are worth it. How big a cut in pay and t&c's must we take before it isn't worth it? And why should pilots accept that we'll do the job for the bare minimum of acceptable pay and respect.

It's a sad fact that so many pilots seem to be willing to take constant harassment from management, and pay cuts, just by saying 'well, how can I justify it?' - I'll tell you why, it's because I'll be sat there one day with a wing hanging off (overexaggeration perhaps?), and I'll land 180 people safely without killing anyone. And on that day I'll earn every penny I'm ever paid.

Doctors, Surgeons, Lawyers, Barristers, and the like are all well paid. Why? Because the responsibility of their job means they are expected to do their job right, every single time. So are we.

There, rant over. I feel much better now!

[Iver]

170to5,

While I appreciate your posts, it sounds like we are going in circles... I don't disagree that pilots are underpaid. I merely look at the economic reality and it doesn't look great for labor (typically the largest percentage of cost). Pilots could ask for a raises when profit margins were strong, competition was not as intense and business was more reliable in the past. Sure, we have experienced a terrible economic period that has impacted most airlines, but the dinosaur legacy airlines have been experiencing more and more problems for the last 10 years.

While we can all hope that Aer Lingus can recover and then thrive in the future, I think recent history has shown that the fundamentals of the airline industry have changed (i.e., business models). Tapped-out governments won't necessarily continue to fund national airlines. Sabena, Alitalia, the old Olympic, Swissair and others are testament to this. The result has been more mergers - Lufthansa and KLM/AF have swooped up once-proud national airlines. I see the same thing happening to Aer Lingus if the path continues to be rocky and unprofitable in the next few years. As a large shareholder, Ryanair would presumably attempt to influence the process. Unless things change dramatically for Aer Lingus in terms of revenues/profits (perhaps as the economy improves), I would expect some serious change in the future. Unless continued failure and losses become acceptable to the gov't/public.

[170to5]

Very true!

Well I don't think it ever turned into a proper disagreement, but I managed to let off some steam!

Happy weekend eh!

[captainbirdseye]

170to5. Quite right!